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View Poll Results: Who is the better wrestler?
Batista 12 36.36%
Chris Benoit 21 63.64%
Voters: 33. You must log in or register to vote on this poll.

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Old 01-03-2018, 03:44 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmsphere View Post
I refuse to use this as evidence. Raw ratings don't matter because Batista was on Smackdown, Show me the smackdown numbers
Batista was on Raw through winning his first World Title at Mania. He got drafted to SmackDown sometime during summer 2005 and brought the World Title with him with Cena and the WWE Title going over to Raw in that same draft.
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:16 PM   #122
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Yeah, he was on Raw for months as champion. Nearly as long as Benoit was as champion. It's an exact comparison. And during that time, ratings went up after falling with Benoit the previous year.
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:23 PM   #123
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It would be had benoit main evented while he was champion.Sadly as is the norm now the title was midcard for 100% of that reign. Benoit never had the show built around him for even a second.


Chris Benoit vs Eugene or Kane were hardly contenders. The main events were H and HBM.
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:27 PM   #124
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The first PPV main event after he won the title was against HBK and HHH again.
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:33 PM   #125
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And it was more about the HHH vs HBK feud
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:41 PM   #126
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It was the main event. And Benoit was heavily involved in the feud.

If you wanna give him a pass once he started feuding with Kane, that's fine. If you're arguing that the build to Backlash and the eventual match shouldn't count because it wasn't about him, you're looking for excuses.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:08 PM   #127
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Im not talking about one show im talking about his whole run. He mained one ppv. (Unless he and Orton was main...was it?) The mania rematch. He wasnt the focus of raw either. To say he was is dishonest.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:18 PM   #128
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Well, you did say the title was midcard for "100% of the reign".

I already said if you wanna ignore his reign once he started feuding with Kane, that's fine. There's still a direct comparison before that where Batista brought ratings up while Benoit was bringing them down a year earlier in the same situation. To ignore that because he went on to EVENTUALLY not defend the title in the main event is looking for an excuse.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:33 PM   #129
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34 Days.

Thats the entire span of him as a maineventer. Your want to back an argument based on 34 days go ahead but its dishonest and everyone knows it.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:40 PM   #130
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Read the original post. I'm basing it on more than just the build from WrestleMania to Backlash. Both men were in identical positions that entire time. From the Rumble on. One was working to some extent. One was not at all. The only reason the post-WrestleMania thing came up as a bigger deal than the rest is because Helmsphere said the ratings don't count because Batista was on Smackdown. He wasn't. So they do. Also, that "100% of his reign was midcard" is blatantly dishonest and everyone can see it. So that was probably a bad word to use as a knock on me...
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:01 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
It was the main event. And Benoit was heavily involved in the feud.

If you wanna give him a pass once he started feuding with Kane, that's fine. If you're arguing that the build to Backlash and the eventual match shouldn't count because it wasn't about him, you're looking for excuses.
There's a big difference between Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels w/ Chris Benoit and Batista vs. Triple H in the continuously destruction of The Empire. Backlash '05 also had Hogan & HBK teaming up -- a very clear semi-main.

You can say they're excuses, but that can you can make excuses is kind of the point. There's not that much difference between them. In fact, the source that I'm using has both the 2004 and 2005 buys as almost exactly the same (320,000). And Vengeance 2005 was also treated as a bit of a super-card, with Angle vs. Michaels and Cena defending the WWE Title as well.

I think you've still got a long way to go before you prove that Batista is a significantly bigger draw.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:13 PM   #132
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Speaking of SmackDown ratings, I did take a little peak at the SmackDown ratings after Batista jumped over from Raw to SmackDown. It actually had negligible effect, and ratings actually went slightly down. Batista joined basically exactly half-way through the year, which is convenient. The first six months of SmackDown averaged 3.31. After Batista jumped over, they averaged 2.78.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:20 PM   #133
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I didn't argue he was a significantly bigger draw. The whole discussion literally started with me acknowledging that Batista wasn't a huge draw but he was bigger than Benoit. Arguing the storyline is subjective, too. The fact is Benoit made Triple H and HBK tap clean over the span of a month on PPV. After winning the rumble from the #1 spot. That's not exactly making a guy an afterthought. He was booked strong as fuck.

As for Smackdown ratings, I don't see what that has to do with the discussion. Ratings probably slipped on Smackdown because they went from Cena to Batista. And Cena was a bigger draw/had more appeal than Batista. Again, I never argued that Batista was a huge draw.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:25 PM   #134
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The period between the Royal Rumble and WrestleMania was shorter than it was for Benoit, but he averaged 3.81 on his Mania chase. Batista was at a 3.9. I don't know if you'd call that a super-massive increase. It's definitely better, don't get me wrong, but I still don't see where this "Batista was definitely a bigger draw than Benoit ever was and ever could be" is coming from. Especially considering Benoit has competed on as many million dollar drawing PPVs as Batista, headlined as many of them, and has been on higher drawing B-PPVs over a much longer and more consistent period.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:26 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I didn't argue he was a significantly bigger draw. The whole discussion literally started with me acknowledging that Batista wasn't a huge draw but he was bigger than Benoit. Arguing the storyline is subjective, too. The fact is Benoit made Triple H and HBK tap clean over the span of a month on PPV. After winning the rumble from the #1 spot. That's not exactly making a guy an afterthought. He was booked strong as fuck.

As for Smackdown ratings, I don't see what that has to do with the discussion. Ratings probably slipped on Smackdown because they went from Cena to Batista. And Cena was a bigger draw/had more appeal than Batista. Again, I never argued that Batista was a huge draw.
Okay, so then what does he have over Benoit?
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:28 PM   #136
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You've brought up very good talking points that have made me think and really engage with this, but I'm struggling to see a Batista > Benoit argument in any sense other than a select few PPVs that were kind of built off the back of them fucking up with everyone else over a three-year period. Ratings didn't hold under Bats for any sustainable period, his lead is overblown, and Benoit main evented shows in the Attitude era and has had more classic matches that have literally changed the business.

It's getting to look more and more like a slam-dunk when you take your eyes of Batista's classic WWE look.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:47 PM   #137
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Quote:
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The period between the Royal Rumble and WrestleMania was shorter than it was for Benoit, but he averaged 3.81 on his Mania chase. Batista was at a 3.9. I don't know if you'd call that a super-massive increase. It's definitely better, don't get me wrong, but I still don't see where this "Batista was definitely a bigger draw than Benoit ever was and ever could be" is coming from. Especially considering Benoit has competed on as many million dollar drawing PPVs as Batista, headlined as many of them, and has been on higher drawing B-PPVs over a much longer and more consistent period.
A) That highlighted part is obviously a strawman. You're better than that, Goddammit. I'm arguing that he was better in the same position a year later. I mean... we CAN argue whether he's a bigger draw than Benoit ever could be. But that quote is just... come on.

B) Where are you getting this info that Benoit has headlined as many "million dollar drawing" PPVs as Batista? Firstly, I don't even know where to look for how much a PPV has drawn money-wise but I'm pretty sure a million dollars isn't a benchmark or anything. But if you just mean he's headlined as many PPVs that have drawn a lot of money as Batista I have my doubts that that's true.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:50 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
A) That highlighted part is obviously a strawman. You're better than that, Goddammit. I'm arguing that he was better in the same position a year later. I mean... we CAN argue whether he's a bigger draw than Benoit ever could be. But that quote is just... come on.

B) Where are you getting this info that Benoit has headlined as many "million dollar drawing" PPVs as Batista? Firstly, I don't even know where to look for how much a PPV has drawn money-wise but I'm pretty sure a million dollars isn't a benchmark or anything. But if you just mean he's headlined as many PPVs that have drawn a lot of money as Batista I highly doubt that's true.
A) Sorry, I did not mean it literally or to misrepresent your point. I think you can try and make the argument, but it gets shot down pretty quickly.

B) I meant million buy PPVs. They both headlined zero. They were a part of about the same amount though, I believe. WrestleMania X-7 goes to Benoit. WrestleMania 23 featured both of them. WrestleMania XXIV had Batista on it. When Batista came back for WrestleMania XXX, they had switched to the Network, and I doubt it would have gotten 1 million anyway. The Rock gets those numbers, and he wasn't advertised to wrestle.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:54 PM   #139
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My point basically is: drawing power is a wash. Basically. Batista performed slightly better in 2005 than Benoit did in 2004, but not in any sort of demonstrably "he's a bigger star" sort of way. Maybe merchandise separates them a lot? I haven't really studied that as much, but I definitely saw kids walking around in Batista shirts.

It might be different now that Batista is a genuine celebrity, but I just don't think, over the wrestling portion of their careers, you can argue that Batista is a bigger star. The data just isn't there.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:57 PM   #140
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A) I don't think it would but I don't really wanna get into the whole "vanilla midgets can't draw" thing right now. lol

B) WrestleMania 21 drew over a million. WrestleMania 20 did too though. A million buys is a tall task either way. If you're using that number to judge guys, it's always gonna be tough to compare regardless of who the guys are because it just happens so rarely anyway. And as far as shows that they've just been on that drew a million, it doesn't really matter. If simply appearing on a card is relevant, we've gotta bring Benoit's "midcard" stint as champion back into consideration. And we've also gotta give Stevie Richards credit for appearing on some cards that drew a lot. You can only really compare headlining.
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:04 PM   #141
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As for merchandise, I think we can agree just by the eye test without having to try to find stats, Batista more than likely wins that one though, right?
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:56 PM   #142
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There is not a single piece of Bautista merch that stands out.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:01 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
A) I don't think it would but I don't really wanna get into the whole "vanilla midgets can't draw" thing right now. lol

B) WrestleMania 21 drew over a million. WrestleMania 20 did too though. A million buys is a tall task either way. If you're using that number to judge guys, it's always gonna be tough to compare regardless of who the guys are because it just happens so rarely anyway. And as far as shows that they've just been on that drew a million, it doesn't really matter. If simply appearing on a card is relevant, we've gotta bring Benoit's "midcard" stint as champion back into consideration. And we've also gotta give Stevie Richards credit for appearing on some cards that drew a lot. You can only really compare headlining.
B) For whatever reason I had lowered those two PPVs in my head to 800,000 buys or so, but those are the later ones. My bad.

I do recognize your point with Benoit's "midcard" stint, but I think Benoit played a much more featured role than you're acknowledging. And this is where our big difference in opinion comes in. Because while I do agree that it's basically down the headliners (at least, it used to be -- Triple H and Roman Reigns didn't fill up WrestleMania 32), I really do believe that Benoit meant a lot more in his "wrestling" position than most other guys ever have.

Go back to WrestleMania X-7. Sure, Austin and Rock are selling that, but you also had Vince/Shane which got ample story time, and even Taker/HHH that had no real build, but felt like a "big" match. I do think you then need to give supplementary credit to the TLC, Benoit/Angle and even Chyna/Ivory as a pay-off. I'd then put the Hardcore Title up there (for its Kane and Big Show/"fun" environment involvement) and Jericho/Regal being a nice little program. Eddie/Test and the RTC stuff probably wasn't anywhere near as meaningful, nor was the Gimmick Battle Royal. So I don't think you give Repo Man or Steven Richards as much credit there. But Benoit helped support that show and make it more than just a "one match card." The midcard really helped carry shit at times, especially when it was someone like Benoit.

I'd give Batista the same credit for his Evolution stuff against Rock and Fole at Mania XX. And his stuff with Undertaker at 23, and even Umaga at 24. It's more than just "we need a match," it's "we need to feature this guy." I wouldn't call it a "drawing" argument, so much as it is a featured performer who matters most in that sort of role kind of argument. I think a super-card with Austin vs. Rock and Chris Benoit vs. Chris Jericho has a good shot at drawing more than Batista vs. Chris Jericho in that undercard position. Benoit's worth as a "great wrestler" is severely underrated as to how it translates to casual audiences, in my opinion.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:09 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
B) For whatever reason I had lowered those two PPVs in my head to 800,000 buys or so, but those are the later ones. My bad.

I do recognize your point with Benoit's "midcard" stint, but I think Benoit played a much more featured role than you're acknowledging. And this is where our big difference in opinion comes in. Because while I do agree that it's basically down the headliners (at least, it used to be -- Triple H and Roman Reigns didn't fill up WrestleMania 32), I really do believe that Benoit meant a lot more in his "wrestling" position than most other guys ever have.

Go back to WrestleMania X-7. Sure, Austin and Rock are selling that, but you also had Vince/Shane which got ample story time, and even Taker/HHH that had no real build, but felt like a "big" match. I do think you then need to give supplementary credit to the TLC, Benoit/Angle and even Chyna/Ivory as a pay-off. I'd then put the Hardcore Title up there (for its Kane and Big Show/"fun" environment involvement) and Jericho/Regal being a nice little program. Eddie/Test and the RTC stuff probably wasn't anywhere near as meaningful, nor was the Gimmick Battle Royal. So I don't think you give Repo Man or Steven Richards as much credit there. But Benoit helped support that show and make it more than just a "one match card." The midcard really helped carry shit at times, especially when it was someone like Benoit.

I'd give Batista the same credit for his Evolution stuff against Rock and Fole at Mania XX. And his stuff with Undertaker at 23, and even Umaga at 24. It's more than just "we need a match," it's "we need to feature this guy." I wouldn't call it a "drawing" argument, so much as it is a featured performer who matters most in that sort of role kind of argument. I think a super-card with Austin vs. Rock and Chris Benoit vs. Chris Jericho has a good shot at drawing more than Batista vs. Chris Jericho in that undercard position. Benoit's worth as a "great wrestler" is severely underrated as to how it translates to casual audiences, in my opinion.
I'm usually not the one to appreciate a good technician but watching Benoit wrestle was great.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:17 PM   #145
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And I think that was the "casual vibe." You always knew you were "great wrestling" with Benoit and the ilk. Mainly Benoit.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:25 AM   #146
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Benoit was the far better wrestler AINEC.
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:18 AM   #147
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Benoit was the far better wrestler AINEC.
I figured a poster of your intellect to be above the lazy use of internet acronyms in place of words. For shame, sir. For shame.
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