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Old 08-22-2018, 05:30 PM   #81
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I understand that not everyone can make it big on the main roster but for the love of god, you had her win the first ever women’s royal rumble and kept her winning streak intact although she had lost a battle royal and tag bouts before. Having her lose to Charlotte was one thing but to have her lose to The Iiconics and Carmella has certainly ruined her perception. Is it too late? I don’t think so. There is still time to rehab her and make her great again
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:31 PM   #82
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:34 PM   #83
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I am slowly becoming resentful of Charlotte. She’s getting into Roman Reigns territory. Her feud with Sasha, Bayley, Asuka, and now Becky. All of the women she’s faced are viewed as “damaged goods” now. What’s next? Making Ronda Rousey tap out at a future event? Breaking Daddy Flair’s record? Having puppies the size of her face?
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Old 08-22-2018, 06:43 PM   #84
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Charlotte is arguably better than all of them with the exception of asuka.Maybe Becky if you're looking at her nxt work, but Charlotte has been far superior in the ring and on the mic on the main roster. That could change, as I believe Becky's in ring style doesn't translate well to how wwe typically wants their faces to perform. I think if they give her a bit more freedom to use her technical skills and torture people with her submissions she could go back to having the quality of matches she did in nxt.

But I'm getting off track. Charlotte gets these opportunities because she deserves them she's literally top 2 in the company for female talent. And its unfair to put the decline of Sasha, bayley, and Becky on Charlotte because that's on creative, not her.
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Old 08-22-2018, 06:44 PM   #85
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:40 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Charlotte is arguably better than all of them with the exception of asuka.Maybe Becky if you're looking at her nxt work, but Charlotte has been far superior in the ring and on the mic on the main roster. That could change, as I believe Becky's in ring style doesn't translate well to how wwe typically wants their faces to perform. I think if they give her a bit more freedom to use her technical skills and torture people with her submissions she could go back to having the quality of matches she did in nxt.

But I'm getting off track. Charlotte gets these opportunities because she deserves them she's literally top 2 in the company for female talent. And its unfair to put the decline of Sasha, bayley, and Becky on Charlotte because that's on creative, not her.
Apparently she has a great top 2 according to Vinnie Mac
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:41 PM   #87
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Charlotte is 100 percent being fucked over by creative. She fucking jobbed clean to that gobshite Carmella for Christ's sake.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:04 PM   #88
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Only thing that could possible save her now, she goes on to win the royal rumble next year she Challenges Rhonda and wins the title at Mania
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:28 PM   #89
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They built the girl for 3 years, to job her to Charlotte and Carmella and after 3 months she had such low credibility that she had less time devoted to the Summerslam build in the woman's division than R-Truth.

Don't believe me, go watch every Smackdown leading up to Summerslam.

That is about the farthest fall from grace and biggest depush in wrestling history.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:53 AM   #90
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Keep hearing about this 4 Horsewomen thing but WWE should hold off until they bring Tessa Blanchard in. Any incarnation without her just won't feel right.
Kind of a different beast, though. They weren't "Horsewomen" by branding, both sets of chicks were born organically. If Tessa were part of that class of women in NXT, it would make more sense than jusr plugging her in because of her name.
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Old 08-23-2018, 03:27 AM   #91
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Never was that into Asuka. I believe NXT overhypes alot of these women.
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It's more the botching of the character that they built up than the botching of Asuka herself that is ridiculous. I don't find Asuka the performer to be miles ahead of everyone else. But they did a good job of building her up as unstoppable. And then just shat it all away in a manner where it almost takes a special talent to botch a push that badly. It's not the fact that she lost a match (though that's the easy WWE apologist strawman). It's the fact that she went from an unstoppable beast to a joke of a jobber in an instant.
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I've watched one Asuka match since her call up, which was the match with Charlotte at Mania. I watched a number of her matches in nxt, mostly the Takeover stuff. The way she was presented was night and day.

Nxt Asuka was an unstoppable monster, like a villain in a horror film. Doesn't matter what you throw at her, she keeps getting up and eventually you are destroyed.

WrestleMania Asuka looked like she was the equal to Charlotte. It didn't seem like Charlotte had to nearly kill herself to beat Asuka. They wrestled like they were peers.

To me, that's the death knell. Whatever made Asuka special on nxt was lost simply by how they booked her matches. If and when she loses, it should be because the other person essentially had to try and kill her. They don't seem to be doing that. Hence she fails.
Sadly, it is a systemic thing not limited to Asuka, or women's wrestling in general. It is a NXT to WWE issue.

It isn't a matter of "overhype", it is a matter of diminishing what the big deal was. Bray Wyatt had his two heavies, but he was dangerous in and of himself. Main roster Bray Wyatt was a jobber who rambled crazy promos. NXT Sami Zayn was the scrappy, fight from underneath competitor who could hang with - if not beat - anyone on any night. WWE Sami Zayn cuts annoying promos and hides behind Kevin Steen. NXT Tyler Breeze was top tier talent who warranted bringing in Jushin Thunder fucking Liger for ample competition. WWE Tyler Breeze has to record stupid backstage segments that don't even air on the show - that you have to seek out online - to get something to do. NXT Ascension was an unstoppable force. WWE Ascension are a pair of nobodies.

NXT Asuka was an ass kicker. A feared striker. She beat 2 or even 3 girls at once because nobody was ready. Main roster Asuka had trouble beating Emma, a who was already established as a delusional jobber. They even tried to keep the hype surrounding her as momentum going into that RAW where she debuted... but the actual presentation msde her look like anything but. They killed the momentum themselves, and probably had the nerve to say that it was her fault for any bad reaction. It would be like if on the main roster re-emergence of Drew McIntyre, he has a 20 min match with James Ellsworth that he barely wins. Would we be buying him as "the Scottish psychopath" after being shit on like that?

I'm actually currently watching NXT TakeOver Brooklyn 4 as I write this on my phone. Saw Velveteen Dream's tights: "Call Me Up Vince". For his sake, I hope Vince doesn't take him up on it. Not because Dream hasn't come a long way or isn't deserving: he is the perfect mix of Rick Rude and the first iteration of Golddust, but because I know he will be "just another guy" inside of six months.
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Old 08-23-2018, 03:41 AM   #92
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Why the Fuck do anyone still watch WWE? It has been shit for almost 20 years now.
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:34 AM   #93
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The thing is this was obviously always going to happen. It's why I was asking people why they were excited that Asuka was finally getting called up. How much of a beast can you look selling for Alexa Bliss? Which is the job on the main roster. You're on TV every week doing 50/50 matches that are supposed to fill time. That's something I hate about the nature of the beast, but that's the nature of the beast.

She will be a Women's Champion. Everyone gets to be a Women's Champion. She will be called "possibly the single-most dominant woman in WWE history" again. When that's the role they want her inserted into. Right now her job is to have good matches and lose the acts they want to win for the next few months. She was given the Rumble. She's a "history-maker." They will mention her every year for as long as it is convenient for them. She will be put into the Hall of Fame if she retires on good terms with them.

She's a part of the team. She's a cog in the machine. She knows what she signed up. They all do. They should, anyway. I just don't know how people saw even the foundations of her being presented as a monster in a roster where half the women aren't very good as possible, let alone probable. What did people think would happen when she got in the ring with Peyton Royce?
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:50 PM   #94
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Quote:
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The thing is this was obviously always going to happen. It's why I was asking people why they were excited that Asuka was finally getting called up. How much of a beast can you look selling for Alexa Bliss? Which is the job on the main roster. You're on TV every week doing 50/50 matches that are supposed to fill time. That's something I hate about the nature of the beast, but that's the nature of the beast.

She will be a Women's Champion. Everyone gets to be a Women's Champion. She will be called "possibly the single-most dominant woman in WWE history" again. When that's the role they want her inserted into. Right now her job is to have good matches and lose the acts they want to win for the next few months. She was given the Rumble. She's a "history-maker." They will mention her every year for as long as it is convenient for them. She will be put into the Hall of Fame if she retires on good terms with them.

She's a part of the team. She's a cog in the machine. She knows what she signed up. They all do. They should, anyway. I just don't know how people saw even the foundations of her being presented as a monster in a roster where half the women aren't very good as possible, let alone probable. What did people think would happen when she got in the ring with Peyton Royce?
It's not being upset for Asuka, it is being upset WWE blew 3 years of booking for what? To put over the person who is already in the top spot, wrestling royalty, who gained nothing from the victory and would have lost nothing taking the loss.

That is just bad syorytelling.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:04 AM   #95
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It's not even that Asuka lost. I could care less about that. It's how she lost. Anti climactic. Asuka is supposed to be this unstoppable wrecking machine but that's not what she was at Mania. She should've been booked the same way they book Lesnar as this unstoppable terminator, with Charlotte going to great and desperate lengths to win. That'd been fine.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:03 PM   #96
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I even said going into WrestleMania that I could see her losing to Charlotte and I'd have been down for it happening even. A hard fought knockdown, drag out fight ending in Charlotte just coming out on top would have taken the pressure of the streak off while keeping Asuka strong AND built Charlotte up as a worldbeater. Could have been a win-win. Then the match happened and it was like "... That's it?"

Still, the loss to Charlotte isn't nearly as ridiculous as how she lost to Carmella.
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Old 08-25-2018, 05:07 AM   #97
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Her loss was anti climactic as fuck. Fine that she lost. But it didn't mean anything and the match itself was built horribly
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Old 08-25-2018, 09:05 AM   #98
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She tapped in .2 seconds, lol.

This was 2 weeks after C. Flair lost to Natty.... not to mention losing clean to Carmella a month later.
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Old 08-25-2018, 06:50 PM   #99
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I've noticed that the announcers have a "tell" that signals the match is over. Anytime they ask "WHAT'S ______ GOING TO DO, WHAT'RE THEY GONNA DO???", that's the last move Happened with Charlotte, happened with Nattie, happened with Asuka.

Another annoying thing, why doesn't Charlotte tap out in submissions? Anytime she gives up, she slaps her hand once + that's it. I think it's something she picked up from Alberto while she was doing him - "GRR, I'll slightly jiggle my hand, but I won't tap out because I'm so, so legit hard IRL, dammit!!!"
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Old 08-27-2018, 03:29 AM   #100
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I think it really boils back to WWE being bad. In a good WWE, this would be frustrating, but you also wouldn't have yourself booked into corners with the likes of Carmella and Peyton Royce running around trying to be competitive with your "legit" women.

When Asuka won a Royal Rumble that came down to her and The Bellas, what did you really think would happen? Like, whether she won or lost, you knew that Carmella still had the briefcase and would need to get a run with the blue belt sometime before June, so Asuka was going to have it two months, tops. Like, I get that them being shitty and having all these awful gimmicks and protocols in place doesn't justify bad television, but I don't get how people were optimistic about it. What logically made you think that Asuka beating up Emma and Alexa Bliss was going to feel like really credible pro-wrestling?
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:35 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I think it really boils back to WWE being bad. In a good WWE, this would be frustrating, but you also wouldn't have yourself booked into corners with the likes of Carmella and Peyton Royce running around trying to be competitive with your "legit" women.

When Asuka won a Royal Rumble that came down to her and The Bellas, what did you really think would happen? Like, whether she won or lost, you knew that Carmella still had the briefcase and would need to get a run with the blue belt sometime before June, so Asuka was going to have it two months, tops. Like, I get that them being shitty and having all these awful gimmicks and protocols in place doesn't justify bad television, but I don't get how people were optimistic about it. What logically made you think that Asuka beating up Emma and Alexa Bliss was going to feel like really credible pro-wrestling?
We all know that aspect of it, but that still doesn't mean they have to book it so badly.

And why did Carmella have to win just because she had the briefcase? If I am being honest, I would rather have the 1st Royal Rumble winner finish the story than the 1st MITB winner.

And again, this ALL boils down to Asuka changing brands to become a jobber.

WWE called her up to Raw, was sole survivor at Survivor Series, won the Rumble, remained undefeated, spent weeks building towards Asuka vs Alexa, then out of nowhere she goes to Smackdown to be a jobber?

All for what, to accomplish what?

3+ years of building Asuka so they can at the last moment put switch to Nia Jax??

The writers/Vince actually thought THIS was better than the payoff of Asuka's crowning moment at Mania.

Fast forward 4 months and Asuka hasn't even had a match in going out 2
Months.

Is Charlotte anymore over because she beat Asuka, or did she get booed at Summerslam because she has been overplayed?

Is Nia Jax a star, or is she already completely forgotten and just another female on the roster?

They ruined Asuka with the end result being not getting a single other person over.

The only thing that came from it was a short lived return of James Ellsworth, who they didn't even resign.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:04 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrodmuc316 View Post
We all know that aspect of it, but that still doesn't mean they have to book it so badly.

And why did Carmella have to win just because she had the briefcase? If I am being honest, I would rather have the 1st Royal Rumble winner finish the story than the 1st MITB winner.

And again, this ALL boils down to Asuka changing brands to become a jobber.

WWE called her up to Raw, was sole survivor at Survivor Series, won the Rumble, remained undefeated, spent weeks building towards Asuka vs Alexa, then out of nowhere she goes to Smackdown to be a jobber?

All for what, to accomplish what?

3+ years of building Asuka so they can at the last moment put switch to Nia Jax??

The writers/Vince actually thought THIS was better than the payoff of Asuka's crowning moment at Mania.

Fast forward 4 months and Asuka hasn't even had a match in going out 2
Months.

Is Charlotte anymore over because she beat Asuka, or did she get booed at Summerslam because she has been overplayed?

Is Nia Jax a star, or is she already completely forgotten and just another female on the roster?

They ruined Asuka with the end result being not getting a single other person over.

The only thing that came from it was a short lived return of James Ellsworth, who they didn't even resign.
To take things in order (and sorry to be argumentative, I do like you as a poster, I'm just going through to be thorough:

* No, but it was obvious she was going to be. They were pushing Alexa Bliss and Carmella on the main roster before they were pushing her. This was prior knowledge. I mean, there's generally expecting WWE to fuck it up, but I'm talking specifically look at the players -- how good was Asuka vs. Alexa Bliss going to actually be? That needs to be what you get excited for in order to get excited for Asuka on the main roster. In my opinion, anyway. Anything else is kind of naive.

* Because they were pushing her and every girl gets a run with the belt in order to show them "respect" and because they genuinely think that she has what it takes to be a star because she looks good nekkid and probably works hard in the right ways. This is not a division where merit directly corresponds to success. Hell, this isn't a company for that. They were coming up to the next Women's Money in the Bank and didn't want to admit the first one was a bust publicly. There was no way Carmella was flubbing her cash in. I'd rather neither happened and instead the women were booked to have their own storylines instead of putting on mustaches and trying to get booked into the men's. But the WWE doesn't really center things like that. We've got a Hell in a Cell PPV coming up, and by crikey, we're going to have a Hell in a Cell match. It doesn't matter if the women have trouble making it over the top rope -- we're going to have a Royal Rumble Match for them, because everyone wants a Royal Rumble Match. A round robin would probably work better for the women, and it can keep an "RR" connotation and be marketed with a similar aesthetic, but nah.

* Okay, but what did you expect to happen when she lost? For independent talent to be flown in just to feed to her? If that happened, we'd be complaining that it's the same story they just told and failed with.

* Yeah, okay, but that's because she was getting a push and focused on. Now she's not getting a push and getting focused on. When she is getting a push and focused on she will get a push and be focused on. I think you're upset that she's not getting a push and focused on. But that will happen again.

* They milked her for what they wanted to get. That's what they do. Nia Jax was always going to be focused on. She's The Rock's cousin. I don't get how this is surprising, I was saying that this was going to happen back when Asuka was in NXT. You have to push Alexa Bliss, Charlotte and Nia Jax in their cosmos. If there are only four spots of real priority, then that leaves one for someone to fill as their contemporary. Asuka got to do it for a few months. Now Ronda Rousey is in and Becky Lynch is getting that push. Soon it won't be Becky Lynch and someone else will have a turn. Maybe Naomi will turn heel? Maybe they call in Shayna and use her for a few months? Maybe then it will be Asuka's again? I don't know why anyone expected this to become The Asuka Division.

* You say it was Asuka's crowning moment at WrestleMania, but it wasn't -- it was Charlotte's. I agree that having Charlotte lose the next week is counterproductive to that, but they wanted people to come out of WrestleMania thinking about "Ronda and Charlotte, Ronda and Charlotte." They are now fucking that up in their own way by cunting up Charlotte by pushing the fans to the point where they are likely to hijack her stuff now. That's the real travesty here.

* Asuka not having a match in 2 months is probably to refresh her, both on-air and off. I'm sure she's happy getting her paycheck and yucking it up with Vince. That's probably why she signed in the first place.

* Nia Jax is Nia Jax. She's not like most girls. She's not getting focused on right now. And she sucks. But she's still there and will come out and win another belt sometime soon. I dunno, I'd say she's not a star, but you tell me that. That is what they want to do and what they are going to do with every girl they cycle in and out of the spot. That's exactly my point.

* Asuka is not ruined by WWE standards. That's like A2 of my point. She's not world-beating, but that's because they don't do that. They were never going to do that. Charlotte, Ronda, Alexa, Nikki Bella and Nia Jax are all higher priorities for WrestleMania next year. That has never changed. You can argue that Asuka is #6. That was as high as she was ever going to get. I could have told you that before she came in. It's been clear that was always going to be the way for some time.

* When Charlotte, Becky and Sasha debuted on the main roster, they were made to be contemporaries of The Bella Twins & Alicia Fox. It was all over then. June 2015, or whenever that was.
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