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Old 10-14-2015, 12:20 PM   #81
The CyNick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
It depends on how you define it. He's not great with scripted WWE-style monologues, but he's improved a lot with them. I think he if he were allowed to keep it short, sweet and to his own personal flavor, he could get quite good.

He actually had a mouthpiece last year. A mouthpiece that was party to the ending of The Undertaker's streak. It was a beautiful legacy to bestow upon the next generation of wrestler. But then they had to have the world-beater go and get beaten by the world.
Yeah but then thats limiting. For better or worse, to headline, almost every guy needs to be able to carry a promo. You can make exceptions for guys with certain gimmicks, but the reality is you need to develop the skill to hang.

It was okay to put Heyman with Cesaro while Lesnar was off, but it lessens Heyman's impact if he has a stable of guys. And as babyface, I dont think a manager makes sense.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:23 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Also, Ryback was everything Vince loves. They booked him as a monster, put him in the main event picture, and unlike Reigns... the crowd fucking ate it up. Everything went right.

... So naturally they started making him job to everyone including Mark Henry CLEAN at WrestleMania and then turned him heel and fed him to Cena.

Genius.
I never understood the appeal of Ryback. I think he was another guy who would only take you so far. Yeah fans like chanting "feed me more" but outside of that, when I hear him cut a promo, I dont think headliner. And his matches leave something to be desired. Also not sure of any backstage issues with him which could have hurt his push.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:25 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Damien Sandow is pretty great all around, too. Tons of charisma. Got pretty fucking over.

... So naturally, instead of keeping him featured at some point during the 5 hours of "A show" TV they produce weekly, they quickly blew off his feud on Raw and now he's jobbing to NXT guys in dark matches.

Brilliant.
You've been watching sports entertainment for a long time right? Do you REALLY think Sandow had the tools to headline? Or was he just a comedy guy that clicked in a comedy spot?

Its like saying Santino or Zack Ryder should have been headlining because they got some pops. Hell Fandango should have been given an 18 month run with the WWE title based on some of his reactions. Be real man.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:30 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
To be honest, I've only watched RAW about a dozen or so times over the past 5-6 years.


But again - you said it yourself - His flaws can be covered, just as Lesnar's weak promo abilities were covered by Heyman back in the day.


And like I said - why is there this notion that a wrestler has to be "almost perfect" in order to get a rocket strapped to his chest? As I pointed out, guys like Cena, Batista, Orton, and Lesnar all had some 'shortcomings' in different ways, but the WWE still pushed them once they got to a certain level..........and they pushed them HARD.


If Reigns is/was struggling and was getting booed out of the building, why not roll with it like they did with Cena? (i.e. Cena kept getting pushed despite fans over the age of 12 hating on him). Keep pushing Reigns and you could always turn him heel if reactions continue to be "loud boos."




In Rollins' case, have him be the opposite of Reigns (i.e. a heel that eventually gets major love/face reactions from the crowd due to him cleanly and dominantly defeating the opposition with pure skill, speed, and athleticism.




Everything you said is true here, but again - why is there this operating assumption that "a guy has to be almost perfect in order to receive a huge push?" Again - I point to the Cena, Orton, Lesnar, Batista comparison.




Even though Reigns received negative reactions, the reactions were still huge. Why not roll with it? Why not slowly turn Reigns heel with those types of reactions? (while at the same time, having Reigns booked as a guy that dominates his opposition).
Cena never struggled cutting a promo like Reigns does. Cena eventually became hated by a small portion of the audience. But it wasnt go away heat. To me Reigns got a crazy amount of go away heat on Monday. You could put him with a manager to prevent him from talking (kinda like the role he had in The Shield), but again, thats limiting. I mean it basically means he cant be the #1 baby. Probably needs to be turned heel ASAP.

Cena is far and away better than anyone else on the roster, espcially the new wave of guys trying to move up. So lets not include him in any comparisons. If they had another Cena, that guy would be headlining with Cena. Lesnar was a freak of nature and a super athlete. Again, nobody they have now is close to him.

Orton and Batista had some warts (Batista more than Orton) and they did get big pushes, but both guys were super talented. Batista had a really unique look, and was good enough in the ring. Orton was more of the total package, but just needed experience. Again my thing is, if these guys are not ready or not good enough, why push them? You got lots of other guys who would like the shot. Keep throwing things against the wall until something sticks.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:46 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Also, Ryback was everything Vince loves. They booked him as a monster, put him in the main event picture, and unlike Reigns... the crowd fucking ate it up. Everything went right.

... So naturally they started making him job to everyone including Mark Henry CLEAN at WrestleMania and then turned him heel and fed him to Cena.

Genius.
That's just part of a bigger story. You'd be able to see that if you'd get your head out of Meltzer's ass!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
You've been watching sports entertainment for a long time right? Do you REALLY think Sandow had the tools to headline? Or was he just a comedy guy that clicked in a comedy spot?

Its like saying Santino or Zack Ryder should have been headlining because they got some pops. Hell Fandango should have been given an 18 month run with the WWE title based on some of his reactions. Be real man.
None of those guys are headline material. Is anybody even saying they are? But each of them could be more valuable to the product than they are, and that's on creative/Vince.
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:04 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
You've been watching sports entertainment for a long time right? Do you REALLY think Sandow had the tools to headline? Or was he just a comedy guy that clicked in a comedy spot?

Its like saying Santino or Zack Ryder should have been headlining because they got some pops. Hell Fandango should have been given an 18 month run with the WWE title based on some of his reactions. Be real man.
Before he turned into a comedy act, Sandow definitely could've been a midcard-upper midcard player
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Old 10-14-2015, 01:46 PM   #87
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There should be chemistry experiments going on backstage and guys paired up based on how organic they are together.

WWE doesn't Science enough brah.

They should take anyone that the crowd loves(Cesaro atm, modern day DB) and pit him against someone that they want(Rollins, Cena) and boom they have a main event that everyone can stomach.

Sandow could have been in that equation, but now he has to come back possibly in a new gimmick and start all over.



I'm speaking for my demographic, 18-34 aged gentlemen, but the current Roman Reigns/Wyatt Family stuff is old and predictable. Sure, they can put on matches like no other, but w/o a good reason for them to fight it's pointless.

The Cesaro and Rollins/Cena feud is served on a silver platter. The Fans v.s. WWE. Cesaro doesn't have to do much, just let the fans do the work. He just has to point at his sections and go out there every once in awhile and make fart jokes during vignettes.

Preaching to the choir though
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:36 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
That's just part of a bigger story. You'd be able to see that if you'd get your head out of Meltzer's ass!



None of those guys are headline material. Is anybody even saying they are? But each of them could be more valuable to the product than they are, and that's on creative/Vince.
Rryback is the IC champ and on RAW every week. That's upper mid card. Probably right where he belongs.

IMO Sandow at best is a tag guy or maybe should just be a mouthpiece for someone. Either way I don't think people decide to or not to watch based on his spot on the card. He was never going to be a difference maker.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:39 PM   #89
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They should have done SOMETHING with Sandow after his Mizdow run.... like anything.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:46 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovator View Post
Before he turned into a comedy act, Sandow definitely could've been a midcard-upper midcard player
Could have been by now had the WWE not squandered his MitB run by doing the typical push killing because they sudden lost interest and rather be focused on Cena again.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:49 PM   #91
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I think he lost the MITB case because They wanted to combine the belts and thought "shit we gotta get rid of this briefcase soon."
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:51 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
You've been watching sports entertainment for a long time right? Do you REALLY think Sandow had the tools to headline? Or was he just a comedy guy that clicked in a comedy spot?

Its like saying Santino or Zack Ryder should have been headlining because they got some pops. Hell Fandango should have been given an 18 month run with the WWE title based on some of his reactions. Be real man.
Oh shit, CyNick just talked down about Fandango to #1-wwf-fan. I think the seeds might be planted for our matchup for Real TPWW Fights #2.
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Old 10-14-2015, 04:00 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
I think he lost the MITB case because They wanted to combine the belts and thought "shit we gotta get rid of this briefcase soon."
Yeah that played a big role. As well as the WWE suddenly wanting another Cena-Orton feud when the crowds were against that idea.

Him losing the case wasn't horrible in general, just the way it was done and how he got treated afterwards. Don't think he ever wanted revenge or anything but just took the loss and then did nothing of importance till the Mizdow gimmick.
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Old 10-14-2015, 05:41 PM   #94
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I don't know why everyone has to be headliner material to be taken seriously or given meaningful investment. It doesn't have to be this black and white, headliner or bust mentality. That's why they're in the current predicament they're in with no credible main eventers except Cena and Lesnar.

In all reality, you're only really going to have one headline, face of the company attraction. It was Hogan, or Austin, and now Cena. Those three are clearly not interchangeable. However, if you book the next level of talent to be of significance and present them as important then you at least have credible quasi main eventers who could be the opposition to your main star or even, as in CM Punk or Daniel Bryan's case, high enough that they're the number two guy who can have a Mania main event and be able to sell it.

Thinking you have to have nothing but mega star caliber talents is never going to be realistic. There has to be a pecking order in place where you have talent who's good enough to main event and have fans believe in it even if everyone knows Cena is still the man.
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:18 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
You've been watching sports entertainment for a long time right? Do you REALLY think Sandow had the tools to headline? Or was he just a comedy guy that clicked in a comedy spot?

Its like saying Santino or Zack Ryder should have been headlining because they got some pops. Hell Fandango should have been given an 18 month run with the WWE title based on some of his reactions. Be real man.
Jesus Christ, between the inability to grasp that there's a huge middle ground between headlining and jobbing in dark matches and the "But losing to Cena isn't a bad thing" argument...

You either have the comprehension of a 3 year old or you're blatantly ignoring things so you can argue shit no one else is saying in order to feel right about something. Which is it?
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:21 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
Oh shit, CyNick just talked down about Fandango to #1-wwf-fan. I think the seeds might be planted for our matchup for Real TPWW Fights #2.
Oh, I assumed that part of what he said was actually genuine.
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:25 PM   #97
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This is basically the point we're at now...

CyNick: "Seth Rollins losing to John Cena isn't a bad thing."

"No one said it was."

CyNick: "LOL explain to me how losing to the face of the company is a bad thing."
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Old 10-14-2015, 07:26 PM   #98
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"Damien Sandow was over and has tons of charisma and should be featured somewhere in the show."

"Do you REALLY think he can headline!? Come on!"

"..."
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:03 PM   #99
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I'd also argue that CyNick missed the main point of the Taker-Foley feud:

It more or less reinvigorated 'Taker's career. There was like a 7 year stretch where Taker was facing large men who were the drizzling shits in the ring, and couldn't draw shit. Mankind was the feud he needed. Beyond just the matches, Mankind was a compelling foil for the Dead Man. A man who can't be hurt is hard to build sympathy for. You need something different, a guy with no regard for his own wellbeing. It didn't hurt that he could work.

Taker-Foley makes more sense if you look at the before and the aftermath: Before, Taker was a midcard special attraction. After, Taker was a main eventer. Foley debuted and became the special attraction.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:17 PM   #100
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I'd also argue that CyNick missed the main point of the Taker-Foley feud:

It more or less reinvigorated 'Taker's career. There was like a 7 year stretch where Taker was facing large men who were the drizzling shits in the ring, and couldn't draw shit. Mankind was the feud he needed. Beyond just the matches, Mankind was a compelling foil for the Dead Man. A man who can't be hurt is hard to build sympathy for. You need something different, a guy with no regard for his own wellbeing. It didn't hurt that he could work.

Taker-Foley makes more sense if you look at the before and the aftermath: Before, Taker was a midcard special attraction. After, Taker was a main eventer. Foley debuted and became the special attraction.
I never said Taker-Foley was bad

What I said was it was similar to a lot of the feuds with Cena, where Cena will put a guy over in the first big match, but then eventually edge out the series. The difference is things move faster today than they did in 1996, so feuds last 3-4 months instead of 6-8.

But in my opinion some people are remembering Taker putting over Foley, and pretending like he came in, Taker put him over, and he stayed in the main event from then on. The REALITY of the program was Taker lost initially at KOTR, and then the bogus finish at Summerslam. But from then on and for a good 6 months, it was nothing but Taker beating Foley left and right. And after that, Foley went way down the card in random programs.

Its pretty much the same thing that happened with guys like Rusev and Owens, who got a nice rub from working with Cena, and even beating him, but ultimately lost the feud and moved down the card.
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Old 10-14-2015, 10:28 PM   #101
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Rryback is the IC champ...
Don't worry. I've often forgotten who holds the titles in this clusterfuck booking era as well.
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Old 10-15-2015, 11:45 AM   #102
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I don't know why everyone has to be headliner material to be taken seriously or given meaningful investment. It doesn't have to be this black and white, headliner or bust mentality. That's why they're in the current predicament they're in with no credible main eventers except Cena and Lesnar.

In all reality, you're only really going to have one headline, face of the company attraction. It was Hogan, or Austin, and now Cena. Those three are clearly not interchangeable. However, if you book the next level of talent to be of significance and present them as important then you at least have credible quasi main eventers who could be the opposition to your main star or even, as in CM Punk or Daniel Bryan's case, high enough that they're the number two guy who can have a Mania main event and be able to sell it.

Thinking you have to have nothing but mega star caliber talents is never going to be realistic. There has to be a pecking order in place where you have talent who's good enough to main event and have fans believe in it even if everyone knows Cena is still the man.
True. But they have that.

Cena is still the top guy.

Then you got guys like Taker, Brock , and Rollins just below that.

Then you have the glut of guys like Reigns, Ambrose, Wyatt, Owens, Orton, Sheamus, New Day, Ryback and Ziggler. Any of those guys could move into main event programs and have secondary titles to fight for.

And then another tier of guys who get steady TV time but don't seem to have traction like Rusev, Cesaro, Big Show, Miz, Neville, Barrett, etc
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Old 10-15-2015, 11:46 AM   #103
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Don't worry. I've often forgotten who holds the titles in this clusterfuck booking era as well.
Was instead of is

So you're not happy with Owens as IC champ? Should it have gone to Fandango?
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Old 10-15-2015, 07:40 PM   #104
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This is basically the point we're at now...

CyNick: "Seth Rollins losing to John Cena isn't a bad thing."

"No one said it was."

CyNick: "LOL explain to me how losing to the face of the company is a bad thing."
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"Damien Sandow was over and has tons of charisma and should be featured somewhere in the show."

"Do you REALLY think he can headline!? Come on!"

"..."
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:08 PM   #105
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The WWE have succeeded in making me stop caring about Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Dean Ambrose, Paige and Becky Lynch. They've achieved something with that.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:45 PM   #106
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The WWE have succeeded in making me stop caring about Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Dean Ambrose, Paige and Becky Lynch. They've achieved something with that.
I could add Jack Swagger, Neville, Curtis Axle, Team BAD, and a few others to that list.


Its like if your not the WWE champion or John Cena your not shit. Hell, even the WWE champion cant be booked to look stronger than Cena. If Roman is guy they want to be the next top guy, I think WWE will be in trouble. No one is going to get behind Roman as the top face like they do Cena. I personally believe Roman will be his best as a heel. He tries to do Cena jokes and make people laugh, its just not him. I really think the talent today is better than the late 90s and and early 2000s. I feel the only problem with todays talent is that they depend to much on the WWE. I feel like the rosters of old were more independent and less reliant on the WWE, but also didnt have as many resourses as todays talent do.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:53 PM   #107
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Reigns has had no real journey. Thinking about it, if they REALLY wanted Reigns to challenge Lesnar for the WWE Title at WrestleMania this year, I think he should have won the Money in the Bank match for the title. He could have kept the title at Battleground, so he didn't look like a fluke champion, then be destroyed at SummerSlam by Lesnar. That way his win in the Royal Rumble and his challenge to Lesnar would have marked some sort of improvement.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:57 PM   #108
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Just realizing that CyNick's inability to understand that there's a huge world to take advantage of between "nothing" and "main event" is the same problem WWE seems to have. Things are making sense.

I can actually see some writer pitching an idea for Damien Sandow for a good, entertaining mid to upper-midcard story for Sandow that is showcased somewhere in the middle of Raw every week and Vince responding with "Fuck that, he's not a main eventer!"
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Old 10-15-2015, 09:00 PM   #109
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The WWE doesn't set anyone up in the mid-card to have any sort of traction where they can step up. A guy is either a main eventer or they're nothing. Then when they've got no main eventers left, they try to pretend one of the nothing guys can suddenly do it and wonder why it doesn't get over.
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Old 10-15-2015, 09:06 PM   #110
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Sandow was so simple to book coming out of WrestleMania. He wants to fight Miz, but Miz is a chickenshit heel. Maybe Miz ducks out of their first scheduled match at Extreme Rules, because he's got "set commitments" and names Big Show as a replacement. This is stemming from Show winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal against Sandow. You have Show toss around Sandow, but have Sandow show enough fight that people get behind him and think he *might* have a chance. Show wins the match after Miz sticks his neck in, and people now REALLY want to see Sandow get his hands on Miz.

Payback comes around and you have conflict established between two former Money in the Bank Winners who have tag history and personal issues. Miz acts like this thing is in the bag, but everyone is clamoring for Sandow to take it. The match sees Sandow get a large measure of personal retribution when he catches Miz in a full nelson, but instead of dropping him into the Skull-Crushing Finale, he brings back You're Welcome and gets the pin. He does a cartwheel after the match and everybody marks out.

You can then maybe have both guys in Money in the Bank and have them cancel each other out. Battleground could see one more match between the two where Sandow busts out a Figure Four and makes Miz tap out to "his own" hold.

You've now taken Sandow through to July, building up the fans' faith in him, his moveset and hopefully getting him more and more over. He might be selling a few t-shirts at this point. It is around here you can consider putting a mid-card championship on the guy. Maybe he holds that for a few weeks until The Miz costs him the title and they head towards a big blow-off in some sort of gimmick match down the stretch, which Sandow again wins, because he's the guy you're really trying to help get a footing.
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:52 AM   #111
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The WWE have succeeded in making me stop caring about Daniel Bryan, Cesaro, Dean Ambrose, Paige and Becky Lynch. They've achieved something with that.
You're absolutely hilarious.

Daniel Bryan was the man after 30. He got injured. Somehow that's WWE's fault? And i get called a troll? Jokes!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:55 AM   #112
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I could add Jack Swagger, Neville, Curtis Axle, Team BAD, and a few others to that.
Aside from Sasha who will be a star in time, all of those guys had lower mid card ceilings.

You really think Curtis Axel is a star waiting to happen? He's lucky to have a job.

You guys really need to appreciate the difference between a money player and a comedy act.
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:56 AM   #113
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You're absolutely hilarious.

Daniel Bryan was the man after 30. He got injured. Somehow that's WWE's fault? And i get called a troll? Jokes!!!!!!!!!
To be fair, before he got hurt he got stuck with the big red albatross
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:58 AM   #114
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Just realizing that CyNick's inability to understand that there's a huge world to take advantage of between "nothing" and "main event" is the same problem WWE seems to have. Things are making sense.

I can actually see some writer pitching an idea for Damien Sandow for a good, entertaining mid to upper-midcard story for Sandow that is showcased somewhere in the middle of Raw every week and Vince responding with "Fuck that, he's not a main eventer!"
Were you watching when Sandow was featured week in and week out? He did exactly what you wanted. He had a nice little program based on comedy. It ran is course!

He's not talented enough to transition to a serious program where he can move up the card. The only thing he can do is comedy. That's cool, that means you are barely hanging on to a TV spot.

Let me guess, that Mega Powers parody angle should have taken those guys through Mania where they could explode?
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:59 AM   #115
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WWE needs to put out serious business rasslin with 30 minute matches and lots of technical rasslin moves and rest holds. That's what people want.
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:00 AM   #116
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To be fair, before he got hurt he got stuck with the big red albatross
What's the problem with that? Kane is a vet who can help establish Bryan as a credible champion. Who should he have programed with and would that have prevented him from going down?
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:05 AM   #117
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Sandow was so simple to book coming out of WrestleMania. He wants to fight Miz, but Miz is a chickenshit heel. Maybe Miz ducks out of their first scheduled match at Extreme Rules, because he's got "set commitments" and names Big Show as a replacement. This is stemming from Show winning the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal against Sandow. You have Show toss around Sandow, but have Sandow show enough fight that people get behind him and think he *might* have a chance. Show wins the match after Miz sticks his neck in, and people now REALLY want to see Sandow get his hands on Miz.

Payback comes around and you have conflict established between two former Money in the Bank Winners who have tag history and personal issues. Miz acts like this thing is in the bag, but everyone is clamoring for Sandow to take it. The match sees Sandow get a large measure of personal retribution when he catches Miz in a full nelson, but instead of dropping him into the Skull-Crushing Finale, he brings back You're Welcome and gets the pin. He does a cartwheel after the match and everybody marks out.

You can then maybe have both guys in Money in the Bank and have them cancel each other out. Battleground could see one more match between the two where Sandow busts out a Figure Four and makes Miz tap out to "his own" hold.

You've now taken Sandow through to July, building up the fans' faith in him, his moveset and hopefully getting him more and more over. He might be selling a few t-shirts at this point. It is around here you can consider putting a mid-card championship on the guy. Maybe he holds that for a few weeks until The Miz costs him the title and they head towards a big blow-off in some sort of gimmick match down the stretch, which Sandow again wins, because he's the guy you're really trying to help get a footing.
You're booking is extremely unrealistic.

You just booked an program with opening card guys for like 4 months. But you failed to mention what they will do on all the TVs in between. They would have to fight about 20 times to keep that going. Maybe a best of 21 series??
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:07 AM   #118
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The WWE doesn't set anyone up in the mid-card to have any sort of traction where they can step up. A guy is either a main eventer or they're nothing. Then when they've got no main eventers left, they try to pretend one of the nothing guys can suddenly do it and wonder why it doesn't get over.
Wyatts vs Reigns was a long term program

Bellas vs Paige seemed to last a long time

Cena vs Owens was over several months
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:19 AM   #119
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That program was atrocious. Bryan had to be scared of a guy he was hugging less than a year before who rarely won, and Brie suddenly was hanging off of Bryan on TV playing the damsel in distress. Brie's acting = not good.

Let us see. Orton could've had a rematch, Batista could have had a shot, Wyatt could have stepped up after beating Bryan at the Rumble, HHH could've wanted a shot to redeem his Mania loss, even Cesaro (who just aligned with the guy who masterminded the ending of the Streak and was at his hottest) could've stepped up for a month.
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Old 10-16-2015, 10:32 AM   #120
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I think there's a disconnect of what the mid card is

A standard WWE PPV looks like this:
1. World Title Match
2. Womens match
3. Tag match
4-8. Random matches (including IC and US titles)

If Cena isn't in the world title picture, you know he has a spot.

That leaves 3-4 matches for the rest of the guys. To me just being featured on a PPV means a lot. The 2nd match in could involve a guy like Randy Orton. Is he considered opening card? He could also easily be headlining against a guy like Rollins.

I understand the desire to see a real ladder system, but then what do you do when you reach the top but don't win the belt? You end up being like Orton or Sheamus or even Cena right now. You're somewhere in the middle of the card moving from program to program. So a ladder system doesn't always work.
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