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Old 03-08-2021, 08:06 PM   #1
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The GOAT

Gertner inspired this thought


I'll post mine later because i dont want to start the dialogue with my opinions.


Im not simply asking who is the GOAT but what makes someone the GOAT? What are the criteria for the greatest and by that criteria who is the greatest in your opinion?


Should be fun to see how everyone arrives at their choice.


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Old 03-08-2021, 08:18 PM   #2
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I think the criteria that rings true for me is star quality, success and longevity. With that in mind there are four guys since 1980 that stand out. Hogan, Cena, Taker and Flair. I really cannot pick Cena even though he is definitely a much bigger mainstream star than Hogan is, but he's close in that in the past decade his name is probably the closest association with wrestling among the average person. He also has a longevity that rivals Hogan. Taker was very consistent and seemed to get better about 20 years into his run, and also has a certain name recognition amongst non fans/sports fans. Flair is definitely the most talented of the group I picked but I feel I probably the least successful. He wasn't a Mania main eventer which is definitely the pinnacle of pro wrestling to me.

I thing that success, longevity and star power out weigh "work rate" so it's not a big part of my answer. So I say the GOAT is Hogan. He carried WWF for nearly 10 years and then challenged and nearly defeated them with WCW for another five. Then he was able to return to WWE and close out his in ring career in a pretty fantastic way having his best matches in over a decade. In my heart the answer is easy, Hogan.

I don't pick Austin or Rock because their careers were too short. HBK and Bret Hart were two of the best wrestlers ever no doubt but they didn't have the success or star power as the four I mentioned.
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Old 03-08-2021, 08:19 PM   #3
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I mentioned this earlier but Terry Funk

I'll clarify this before I start: Terry Funk was not the greatest draw. The correct is probably whoever drew the most money, but just for discussion purposes I'll list my reasons.


Accolades: Multiple time NWA Champion. Won titles pretty much everywhere he went One of the most popular Gaijin in Japan (they LOVED Terry), drew money in multiple territories.

Adapted throughout the years, could wrestle any style, absolutely dynamite on promos, never felt stale, always gave back to wrestling, longevity, leaves behind a lasting legacy. He's got legendary matches like the Empty Arena match with Lawler and the I Quit match with Flair. Just so multi dimensional.

Terry is the best IMO, but I wouldn't fault anyone for picking Flair, Lawler etc..


I guess my criteria is "Who was the most Complete Package"

Last edited by Lord Gertner of TPWW; 03-08-2021 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 03-08-2021, 08:21 PM   #4
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I have to go Rock. Every measurable there is, he crushed it.

10 World Titles, headlined multiple Wrestlemanias, buyrates, ticket sales, merch, mainstream appeal, memorable moments, high motor, technically sound, smooth moveset, looked like a champ.

He also has that Jim Brown/Barry Sanders retiring early/while on top. If he stayed a full time wrestler he would probably be a 25 time World Champ by now.
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Old 03-08-2021, 08:47 PM   #5
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The Destroyer

Too tired from PT to make up a long post on why. Gartner and Destor will know why.
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Old 03-08-2021, 08:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Gertner of TPWW View Post
I mentioned this earlier but Terry Funk

I'll clarify this before I start: Terry Funk was not the greatest draw. The correct is probably whoever drew the most money, but just for discussion purposes I'll list my reasons.


Accolades: Multiple time NWA Champion. Won titles pretty much everywhere he went One of the most popular Gaijin in Japan (they LOVED Terry), drew money in multiple territories.

Adapted throughout the years, could wrestle any style, absolutely dynamite on promos, never felt stale, always gave back to the business(hate using that word), longevity, leaves behind a lasting legacy. He's got legendary matches like the Empty Arena match with Lawler and the I Quit match with Flair. Just so multi dimensional.

Terry is the best IMO, but I wouldn't fault anyone for picking Flair, Lawler etc..


I guess my criteria is "Who was the most Complete Package"
I would add his selflessness to that list.
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Old 03-08-2021, 09:00 PM   #7
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Basically all the metrics Gertner used to come to Terry being his GOAT. But they end up with Chris Jericho as my personal GOAT. Has held a ton of titles, headlined tons of shows for multiple companies, has been going strong for 30 years, almost always cuts a great promo and has been in tons of incredible matches across the world.

If there is one thing holding him back its that he has never been a big draw like some of the people around him in his earlier days were. Kinda sucks tbh because in terms of pure skill he was better than any of them imo (talking about ppl like Rock, Austin) but they also had a certain X factor at the time so it is what it is.

I don't think Chris has been the best at any one particular area. But he has been consistently great enough at all of them to qualify as the best overall to me. For the longest time I would have said HBK was my GOAT for a lot of these reasons but I also knew a long time ago that at some point Y2J was gonna take that spot from him in my rankings.
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Old 03-08-2021, 09:29 PM   #8
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Feels like its Ric Flair but need to put a lot of thought into this and probably would end up with someone else instead.

Like Seph, Jericho would be my GOAT based on personal preferences since I've been highly entertained throughout his lengthy career. Not only has he managed to be great wherever he went, he's also managed to excel at redefining himself multiple times to keep his career fresher than other notable people who had lengthy careers like Big Show and Undertaker.
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Old 03-08-2021, 09:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
I would add his selflessness to that list.
Nobody has a bad word to say about him.

I wish Backlund and Funk would have had a run in 1980-81 WWF. He's the one opponent I wish Backlund would have faced
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Old 03-08-2021, 09:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
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The Destroyer

Too tired from PT to make up a long post on why. Gartner and Destor will know why.
He actually came to mind when I was posting some of Funk's Japanese matches in another thread.
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Feels like its Ric Flair but need to put a lot of thought into this and probably would end up with someone else instead.

Like Seph, Jericho would be my GOAT based on personal preferences since I've been highly entertained throughout his lengthy career. Not only has he managed to be great wherever he went, he's also managed to excel at redefining himself multiple times to keep his career fresher than other notable people who had lengthy careers like Big Show and Undertaker.
so is your criteria reinventing yourself or...?
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:30 PM   #12
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For personal preference, my main criteria would be whoever entertained me the most during their career and was at least at a high level as a star. Being able to reinvent yourself to keep your lengthy career fresh is very helpful and not make it feel more like an old guy who is well past his expiration date in the ring and/or as a character.

Like Undertaker's lengthy career would be looked upon more fondly had he retired after his Mania streak was over since that was the last meaningful thing about his career.
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:34 PM   #13
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Was Jericho ever really on top? Or did he just work with the guys who were? I’m not questioning his greatness, I love Jericho’s body of work but I feel like maybe people are over valuing his longevity here. He was never at any point the number 1 draw in the business, or 2, or probably 3, or even 4. He’s not the worker an HBK or Flair was, or the draw that the rock or Austin were.
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
For personal preference, my main criteria would be whoever entertained me the most during their career and was at least at a high level as a star. Being able to reinvent yourself to keep your lengthy career fresh is very helpful and not make it feel more like an old guy who is well past his expiration date in the ring and/or as a character.

Like Undertaker's lengthy career would be looked upon more fondly had he retired after his Mania streak was over since that was the last meaningful thing about his career.
this brings up a solid thought:

is being your all time favorite the same as being the greatest? i see a large distinction between those two things. my personal favorite migh not be the greates that ever lived.


for example: beatles are the greatest band of all time. they shaped a culture shift that reverberated globaly.

queen is my favorite band. they bring me the most pleasure.
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Was Jericho ever really on top? Or did he just work with the guys who were? I’m not questioning his greatness, I love Jericho’s body of work but I feel like maybe people are over valuing his longevity here. He was never at any point the number 1 draw in the business, or 2, or probably 3, or even 4. He’s not the worker an HBK or Flair was, or the draw that the rock or Austin were. It wouldn’t be my pick, but by far the longevity and drawing and being an overall worker Undertaker is far and away ahead of Jericho.
jericho was never a top guy in the fed. they tried to make him one for about 4 months. gave up. he was never ever to give them a reason to try again.


great hand obviously. not a top guy. AEW/NJPW he's a top guy. depends on if you consider them bush league or not though
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:48 PM   #16
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You’re not asking what makes my favourite wrestler the greatest?
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:48 PM   #17
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You’re not asking what makes my favours wrestler the greatest?
i didnt think i was but i guess its subjective
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:49 PM   #18
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jericho was never a top guy in the fed. they tried to make him one for about 4 months. gave up. he was never ever to give them a reason to try again.


great hand obviously. not a top guy. AEW/NJPW he's a top guy. depends on if you consider them bush league or not though
He’s should have beat HHH at mania!!
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:50 PM   #19
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even if he had jericho had lost all his steam before the bell rang
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:53 PM   #20
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Don Muraco and JBL/Bradshaw are my favourite wrestlers and they're definitely not the greatest
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:54 PM   #21
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
this brings up a solid thought:

is being your all time favorite the same as being the greatest? i see a large distinction between those two things. my personal favorite migh not be the greates that ever lived.


for example: beatles are the greatest band of all time. they shaped a culture shift that reverberated globaly.

queen is my favorite band. they bring me the most pleasure.
That could one of those yes & no type answers since its possible for your all-time favorite to also be the greatest of all time as well depending on the circumstances.

Like as Pats fan, Tom Brady is my favorite player ever and a strong case could be made that he's also the GOAT in football.

For baseball, Ken Griffey Jr. is my favorite all-time player but I wouldn't put him as the GOAT in baseball from a non-personal perspective. Had Griffey's body not fallen apart post-Mariners career, he probably would have had a very strong case to be a potential GOAT in baseball.
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:03 PM   #23
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even if he had jericho had lost all his steam before the bell rang
I never really felt it had much steam to begin with. Probably shouldn’t have been booked against HHH at mania I guess would be a fair point to make, but like you said it wouldn’t have mattered anyway.
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:19 PM   #24
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That could one of those yes & no type answers since its possible for your all-time favorite to also be the greatest of all time as well depending on the circumstances.

Like as Pats fan, Tom Brady is my favorite player ever and a strong case could be made that he's also the GOAT in football.

For baseball, Ken Griffey Jr. is my favorite all-time player but I wouldn't put him as the GOAT in baseball from a non-personal perspective. Had Griffey's body not fallen apart post-Mariners career, he probably would have had a very strong case to be a potential GOAT in baseball.
i agree. my favorite is also my pick for the goat. so we circle back to jericho. you said he was the goat because he entertained you the most but you acknowledge that the metric can run parallel with being the greatest but isnt in itself what makes them the greatest.

what makes jericho the greatest thats ever lived?
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:22 PM   #25
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Question

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I never really felt it had much steam to begin with. Probably shouldn’t have been booked against HHH at mania I guess would be a fair point to make, but like you said it wouldn’t have mattered anyway.
yeah they were banking tha the belts would make him. it didn't take so much. anything he gained from it was quickly lost. definitely not a career highlight in hindsight. its only an achievement in the kayfabe lense. its honestly his greatest career failure...which is ironic since in kayfabe its his crowning moment.
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:23 PM   #26
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(wanna be clear here: im not disputing if jericho is or isnt the goat just trying to suss out the why of it all)
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:28 PM   #27
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Everything Kurt Angle brought to the table but also longevity.
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:32 PM   #28
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Kurt really could have had a career worth discussing...such a travesty
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:40 PM   #29
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i agree. my favorite is also my pick for the goat. so we circle back to jericho. you said he was the goat because he entertained you the most but you acknowledge that the metric can run parallel with being the greatest but isnt in itself what makes them the greatest.

what makes jericho the greatest thats ever lived?
Jericho is my GOAT from a personal preference but wouldn't actually put him as the GOAT for a serious discussion or answer. For something like that, he'd be more like one or two tiers below it. Like someone you'd easily consider worthy of a Hall of Fame spot but not any higher for real all-time legendary status.

Currently leaning towards Flair as my serious answer but would really need to think about it.
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:57 PM   #30
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Prob Hogan.
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Old 03-09-2021, 09:54 AM   #31
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I think just going by the money they drew and how they changed the business is fine but for the sake of discussion, I think you can throw in the “popular doesn’t always mean right” factor. Of course “right” is subjective but if you think of the most popular/biggest draw when it comes to movies, TV, music, etc. and then think of the greatest, chances are they won’t be the same. Larry the Cable Guy is not one of the greatest comedians of his time, Goddammit.

And with wrestling, it’s even less clear because there are SO many more factors that come into play. If Austin says “fuck this shit” and quits the business altogether after his Ringmaster run, he certainly doesn’t show up on many GOAT lists. But he’s the same guy. He just never found the right path to show it. How many guys were GOAT material and we’ll never know because the timing was never right? (*cough*Fandango)

So yeah, basically there’s a compromise between your personal favorite and the biggest draw that you can use.

I don’t think accomplishments should factor in too much though. Especially after a certain point. Everyone gets a turn with a world title in this era. It doesn’t mean much. If it did, we’d have to throw The Miz in the discussion.
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Old 03-09-2021, 10:07 AM   #32
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And since you didn’t ask, my GOAT is Shawn Michaels. He is also my favorite. Purely a coincidence.
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Old 03-09-2021, 11:15 AM   #33
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Hogan because of Suburban Commando alone
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Old 03-09-2021, 01:22 PM   #34
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Old 03-09-2021, 04:09 PM   #35
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I think just going by the money they drew and how they changed the business is fine but for the sake of discussion, I think you can throw in the “popular doesn’t always mean right” factor. Of course “right” is subjective but if you think of the most popular/biggest draw when it comes to movies, TV, music, etc. and then think of the greatest, chances are they won’t be the same. Larry the Cable Guy is not one of the greatest comedians of his time, Goddammit.

And with wrestling, it’s even less clear because there are SO many more factors that come into play. If Austin says “fuck this shit” and quits the business altogether after his Ringmaster run, he certainly doesn’t show up on many GOAT lists. But he’s the same guy. He just never found the right path to show it. How many guys were GOAT material and we’ll never know because the timing was never right? (*cough*Fandango)

So yeah, basically there’s a compromise between your personal favorite and the biggest draw that you can use.

I don’t think accomplishments should factor in too much though. Especially after a certain point. Everyone gets a turn with a world title in this era. It doesn’t mean much. If it did, we’d have to throw The Miz in the discussion.
This post is a good one to get into my thoughts.

I agree that draw shouldnt be the SOLE metric but i do feel that its the most important. Immediately guys who never drew are bumped out of contention. Bret, Angle, Jericho, HBK and to a lesser extent Savage all were phenomenal workers but as a draw they all fell short (Savage far less so than the others.) Some of the greatest workers between the bells but GOAT? they arent even in the conversation.

With the draw being the chief metric there's a short list I can pretty quickly go to: Andre, Bruno, Hogan, Flair, Inoki, Chosu, Rikidozan, Austin, Cena, Rock, Goldberg, Taker.

Rock was only a top guy for about 6 months and 80% of his draw was because Austin was so red hot. frankly Rock has been more successful in hollywood than he was in wrestling and I think a lot of that clouds how people view his run. Austin was the guy. Rock just fed off the flames he produced.

Goldberg was a flash in the pan. He drew crazy money for 18 months or so and then nothing.

Goldberg and Rock bring us to the next metric: LONGEVITY

Lasting power is intrinsically tied to drawing. A guy who can stay over longer must logically be better. Seems like a reasonable inference. Goldberg and The Rock didnt have any longevity whatsoever and sadly, neither did Austin.

Austin might have drawn more money in his career than anyone ever did. Staggering ammounts. The Austin character can very reasonably be argued as the cornerstone of the WWFs rise in the late 90s and the cause of WCWs eventual downfall. but the career just didnt last.

So we're left with Andre, Bruno, Hogan, Flair, Inoki, Chosu, Rikidozan, Cena, Taker.

The japs all have the same issue. Outside of Japan and Korea they werent really a thing. They were essentially regional. huge money was drawn in their region, on par with new york, but it was one market with no crossover. Its for this reason I also cross off Bruno.

Bruno had IMMENSE staying power. He was on top so long the company should have folded when he retired (and a lesser territory would have.) Bruno certainly had more travel potential than the Japs and even his peers of the same time before cable took prominence. Bruno would have in my mind been bigger than hogan if they were both in their primes in the 80s but at the end of the day Bruno was on top in the time frame he was on top and was limited by the technology of his era.

Andre, Hogan, Flair, Cena, Taker.

the top 5 is where this gets incredibly difficult to debate thats what we're here to do.

My next metric is influence. Who's mark has reverberated thoughout the ages of the industry. Cena is a bit too fresh to see what that is. I'd also argue that him spending so much of his career as a guy 30% of the audience rejected that I cant push him any further forward.

Taker certainly will be the bench mark for big men from now until the end of time.

Andre might be the most successful draw of all time when you consider that you could book Andre anywhere ON EARTH and you could sell out the building but because of the very factors that made him a draw he cannot be replicated and thus his influences on future generations is very limited.

So I arrive at Taker, Hogan and Flair.

Taker I eliminate at this point because next to the other two men his career simply doesnt match up. He spent a very small fraction of his career as the guy the show depended on. If he wasnt hot the gate didnt crumble. He simply wasnt as important.

Hogan and Flair.

Hogan transcended the industry in the same way the rock would do later. and that in turn clouds the conversation. its his successes beyond wrestling that bolster hogans mystique but imo the conversation should stay on wrestling. yes Hogan is more of a house hold name but that has as much to do with MTV as it does anything.

Ric Flair imo is the GOAT. he has the greatest single attendance of any show ever (190k [355k over 2 days]) His body of work has directly influenced how matches are constructed in a far grander scale than any worker ever. He is the model for what in ring work should be for 50 years. he carried the entire south on his back for 15-20 years. And his matches have stood the test of time and are still some of the first tapes guys go to when looking to study.

Ric Flair imo is the absolute bench mark for what success in wrestling should look like. Others may outshine him in one metric or another but when you add everything together no one is as complete of a package as Ric Flair. there is no metric that you can judge a wrestler on that flair isnt an automatic top 3 and in most a very reasonable top 1.
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Old 03-09-2021, 04:51 PM   #36
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Flair did not draw that audience in Korea communism did. And the only reason Flair took the job is cause Hogan wouldn't.
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Old 03-09-2021, 04:52 PM   #37
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moot points all around. what happened happend.
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Old 03-09-2021, 05:25 PM   #38
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I think it’s Hogan Flair or Austin.
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Old 03-09-2021, 05:31 PM   #39
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healthy top 3
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Old 03-09-2021, 05:40 PM   #40
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healthy top 3
More like UNHEALTHY
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