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Old 09-11-2019, 12:50 AM   #2081
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Or Serena Williams, for that matter.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:01 AM   #2082
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:07 AM   #2083
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She hasn’t really had a chance, to be fair. I don’t like how she’s been booked. Too many multi-person matches.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:40 AM   #2084
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Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect View Post
You’re putting a lot of straw in that scarecrow. I don’t agree that men should beat up women, no. There are a whole bunch of social reasons I think that is a shitty thing to promote. Absolutely none of that has anything to do trans women wrestling women. Nice try. .
What are the top 2 or 3 social reasons? If I’m straw-manning this shit, please feel free to correct me.
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:22 AM   #2085
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lol at the assertion we weren't talking about gender Noid. When we are talking about transGENDER people. Theres just so much to break down in that post up there, I don't even know where to start, really.

M2F transgender athletes are increasingly being crowned champions in multiple women's sports, including but not limited to: Weight lifting, track and field and cycling. Men who identify as female but are still biologically male are even being allowed to enter into women's competition at this point and are winning. Some of these athletes will be competing in the Olympics next year. But since men supposedly aren't physically superior on a base level we should see the same trend in the opposite direction, with F2M trans athletes doing well in mens sports. Shocker though, they aren't.

You keep going on about testosterone not being a big deal, but now with the caveat of it being in normal levels. News flash, biological males have a much higher normal amount of it than females do. It's one of the reasons why men have a physical advantage. And when a male transitions to female and that level of testosterone is brought down to normal levels for a female it does not remove the YEARS of physical benefits the higher level of T brought to them as a male. It is absolutely outrageous to claim what you are about testosterone, there is a very distinct reason it is so highly monitored in athletics. Because it is a power level and it's over 9000 whether you like it or not.

How someone feels, or identifies, or aligns at any given point in their life is a part of their gender, but it is not the only part. The physical biology matters. Someone can be born feeling female from day one but be biologically male and reap all the benefits from that. Identity may be an extremely complicated topic, but biology is not nearly so. To suggest Nyla Rose may have been a woman since birth is ridiculous. She wasn't. She was physically born a male. Facts don't care about your feelings or hers or anyone elses.

You come off as someone whos heart is absolutely in the right place but it's making you commit to some really strange arguments.

Last edited by Seph; 09-11-2019 at 02:24 AM. Reason: added the word supposedly
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:26 AM   #2086
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I wish there was a way to tell how many people streamed AEW by less than savory means. Still think it would be way more telling at this point. They are seriously pricing themselves out of a lot of people who would buy into it.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:37 AM   #2087
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
What are the top 2 or 3 social reasons? If I’m straw-manning this shit, please feel free to correct me.
I think promoting violence between men and women is irresponsible since it’s supposed to be presented as a fight. I’m not saying most men don’t usually have a few pounds on most women or dismissing domestic violence as an issue. I am disputing that Nyla Rose used to “scientifically” be a man. You might have thought of her as one, but the issue is far more intricate than big, burly dude with angry brain becomes big-boned woman.

It’s just dicey to say that trans women used to be “scientifically” male. It’s way too much of a box and just a set of assumptions that science doesn’t make anymore just because someone had a Hogan instead of a Terry down there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph View Post
lol at the assertion we weren't talking about gender Noid. When we are talking about transGENDER people. Theres just so much to break down in that post up there, I don't even know where to start, really.

M2F transgender athletes are increasingly being crowned champions in multiple women's sports, including but not limited to: Weight lifting, track and field and cycling. Men who identify as female but are still biologically male are even being allowed to enter into women's competition at this point and are winning. Some of these athletes will be competing in the Olympics next year. But since men supposedly aren't physically superior on a base level we should see the same trend in the opposite direction, with F2M trans athletes doing well in mens sports. Shocker though, they aren't.

You keep going on about testosterone not being a big deal, but now with the caveat of it being in normal levels. News flash, biological males have a much higher normal amount of it than females do. It's one of the reasons why men have a physical advantage. And when a male transitions to female and that level of testosterone is brought down to normal levels for a female it does not remove the YEARS of physical benefits the higher level of T brought to them as a male. It is absolutely outrageous to claim what you are about testosterone, there is a very distinct reason it is so highly monitored in athletics. Because it is a power level and it's over 9000 whether you like it or not.

How someone feels, or identifies, or aligns at any given point in their life is a part of their gender, but it is not the only part. The physical biology matters. Someone can be born feeling female from day one but be biologically male and reap all the benefits from that. Identity may be an extremely complicated topic, but biology is not nearly so. To suggest Nyla Rose may have been a woman since birth is ridiculous. She wasn't. She was physically born a male. Facts don't care about your feelings or hers or anyone elses.

You come off as someone whos heart is absolutely in the right place but it's making you commit to some really strange arguments.
Well, to start, a lot of trans people are moving away from “transgender” as a label. It’s not that it is offensive, but some prefer transitioning away from gender or away from binaries altogether, and it doesn’t describe the biological stuff that is going on.

If we are talking gender, then it’s a false point to bring up her assigned sex anyway. If you’re talking about gender, drop the sex stuff, if you’re talking about sex, then her gender has got nothing to do with it.

Are they? It seems like every time a trans woman wins anything it’s major news. The list of famous trans athletes is relatively small. Are they cropping up at a consistent rate as other trans people, or is this a “vaccinations cause autism” type point. Maybe our diagnoses are getting better?

Trans women would hold a lot more records if they had a blanket advantage. A lot reduce their testosterone and take other hormonal supplements. Is being bigger and stronger going to help? Of course. No one is saying that, you’ve flown off the handle making up things. I’m saying that many trans women work hard to alter elements of their biology, which *can* negate certain advantages at certain times in certain sports.

Why do you think the Olympics are letting trans athletes compete? Think about it.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that trans women are being crowned champions in sport at a disproportionate rate to their success in business, music or even just their rate of transition? By that I mean is there an even split between trans men and trans women? If there were, say, more trans women than trans men, wouldn’t you expect there to be an outstanding number of trans women athletes comparatively? Also, there are trans men who achieve in the sporting field. I think your alarm is dramatic.

Lol, I brought up testosterone once and said that it “isn’t what people think it is.” You read into that because, like it or not, your argument is emotive. Are you really saying you are more qualified to comment on this more than the actual experts that, at worst (for my point), split on this? Until you have evidence to suggest that definitively that what you are saying is true, I’m going to call bullshit.

And...that’s not even the fucking point! I wasn’t talking about men in shoot sports allegedly taking all the cool spots, I’m talking about a woman worker, who, yes, should be making it look real, but is in a worked position. I’m fine with trans women in sports, but I’m fine if they addressed the “hysteria” too. Given how easily guys get their panties in a twist about it though, it’s obviously why they shouldn’t.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:17 AM   #2088
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:49 AM   #2089
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
I wish there was a way to tell how many people streamed AEW by less than savory means. Still think it would be way more telling at this point. They are seriously pricing themselves out of a lot of people who would buy into it.
Probably 20% less than last time. Interest seems lower across the board really consistently. The UK seems to be up, but everything in NA seems to be down 20% or so.

The price could be damaging, but I actually would pay $50 for wrestling if I knew I was going to love it. I just can’t philosophically go in on All Elite and some of their goofy WWE-style stuff.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:13 AM   #2090
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Streamers gonna stream. I used to do it. I don't have to now so I don't.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:08 PM   #2091
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
I wish there was a way to tell how many people streamed AEW by less than savory means. Still think it would be way more telling at this point. They are seriously pricing themselves out of a lot of people who would buy into it.
If I had to guess, probably as high as 25% to a third of what All Out generated assuming it stays around 100k.

The percentage that watch illegal streams of WWE events is likely a lot lower mainly due to WWE working with a lot higher numbers on average for shows and the Network spiking those numbers.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:07 PM   #2092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect View Post
I think promoting violence between men and women is irresponsible since it’s supposed to be presented as a fight. I’m not saying most men don’t usually have a few pounds on most women or dismissing domestic violence as an issue. I am disputing that Nyla Rose used to “scientifically” be a man.
She’s a trans woman. What did she transition from, a potato?

She was born with a Y chromosome and her body developed as a male. Even though you downplayed it, you admitted that there are generally differences between men and women physically. You acknowledge gender labels and then back off when it gets uncomfortable. I get you’re trying to be ultra safe and not offend with “labels” but when it prevents you from having an honest discussion, back up and find a middle ground.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:58 PM   #2093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
She’s a trans woman. What did she transition from, a potato?

She was born with a Y chromosome and her body developed as a male. Even though you downplayed it, you admitted that there are generally differences between men and women physically. You acknowledge gender labels and then back off when it gets uncomfortable. I get you’re trying to be ultra safe and not offend with “labels” but when it prevents you from having an honest discussion, back up and find a middle ground.
I don’t know how her brain and body were working, so I don’t know. I don’t know why a potato would wish to transfer into being a human when they’ve already got it made.

Her brain or body may have always had “female” qualities. We just don’t know that much about her. Did her body develop as a male? Did her mind? She may have developed in some ways as a woman which has encouraged her “transition.” My point isn’t so much about labels as the complexities of identities — mental and physical — and how that shapes us.

Nyla might very well be like “Yeah, I used to be a dude.” And that is fine. It may or may not be true. When dealing with trans people and trans issues, it’s just way too hard to go back and talk about concrete black and white, especially since we’re learning more about how biological sex is much murkier than the binary we’ve always thought of it as.

Nothing about what you said struck me as offensive or anything. It’s just that word “scientifically.” It’s seriously just that word, because I think it makes too many assumptions about who Nyla used to be and how her shit worked. She was identified as male, maybe even identified herself as male, but I think it’s too rigid to say she was scientifically male. And frankly irrelevant (not that you were playing up it’s relevance as anything more than curiosity).

She may have been a male, sex-wise or gender-wise, but it might be murkier than that. That’s all I’m saying.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:57 AM   #2094
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She was born a man. That is scientifically factual. Her body didn't have "female qualities". She was born a man. She grew up with the bone density and testosterone levels of a man. She's a woman now. But that does not reverse the 18-20 yrs she spent in life as a man, with a man's body and a man's genetic makeup.

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Old 09-12-2019, 08:14 AM   #2095
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I don’t know why a potato would wish to transfer into being a human when they’ve already got it made.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:57 AM   #2096
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Scientifically, Noid is a fucknut
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Old 09-12-2019, 12:21 PM   #2097
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Easily one of the weirdest arguments I've ever seen.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:34 AM   #2098
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She was born a man. That is scientifically factual. Her body didn't have "female qualities". She was born a man. She grew up with the bone density and testosterone levels of a man. She's a woman now. But that does not reverse the 18-20 yrs she spent in life as a man, with a man's body and a man's genetic makeup.
Prove it. Scientifically.
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:32 AM   #2099
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He just did. You can't be that much in denial. She was "scientifically" born a man. You are hung on the mental aspect of her transition which itself isn't scientifically proven.

Like everyone else I'm not sure how her transition went but I'm not against her being the AEW Women's World Championship eventually, I don't think they should lead with her though.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:21 AM   #2100
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He just did. You can't be that much in denial. She was "scientifically" born a man. You are hung on the mental aspect of her transition which itself isn't scientifically proven.

Like everyone else I'm not sure how her transition went but I'm not against her being the AEW Women's World Championship eventually, I don't think they should lead with her though.
Saying something isn’t proving it. I like my science concrete and demonstrable. Some things about Nyla are concrete. We know she is trans. We know that she was assigned male sex at birth. But we don’t know her testosterone levels, how her chromosomes are like or how her brain developed. We just don’t. And to me it’s unimportant, and I think it is to #fan too, but I’m just saying that to categorically and declaratively state “Nyla Rose was scientifically a male” is a step too far with assuming the things we don’t know.

We know gender is constructed, right? But we’re also learning that a lot of biological stuff is more fluid than we thought too. I don’t think it’s scientifically correct to say that biological sex is a binary anymore. Some trans people do align their bodies to match their identified gender. This could very well be the case with Nyla. I just don’t think it’s fair to say that’s concrete since, like you just said, you don’t know. It’s too reductive to say that happens 100% of the time in 100% of cases.

If the wording was like something like “their first Women’s Champion was someone that was assigned male status” I’d be like “yeah, that’s true.” From what I know, she was. She’s probably lived male experiences. I don’t know that. I wasn’t there. I know she’s Native American, and some tribes have had “two-spirit” people. I’m not sure how she grew up and how her environmental development was. But we don’t have a complete phenotype, and even if she were phenotypically male and that were scientifically true, I don’t think it’s the right wording to say she was “scientifically” a male. That’s just too...unspecific and broad, even if I knew what #fan meant and it wasn’t offensive.

Like, a painting of a tree is scientifically “a tree.” Look at it, it’s a tree. It’s not the same thing as it being a conifer. Or it having actual roots in the ground. Or it also being made of paint. Or it being comprised of shapes. Or is it even a tree? Maybe it’s a painting of a photo of a tree? Maybe the artist did paint a tree and it’s supposed to be a tree and the artwork is called “Tree.” Whatever. That’s cool. But to see that painting, have no more information and to say “scientifically that is a tree.” Is it? It depends. It may be in how it is perceived and described by people, but it’s not botanically.

In this scenario, I’m not accusing #fan of trying to tell me that it’s a botanical tree. He’s just telling me that scientifically it’s a tree. And it might be. It probably is. I’m just saying that there is probably a better word than “scientifically.”

If #1-wwf-fan said that Nyla Rose was probably phenotypically male, I’d totally agree with that, with the caveat that I am still assuming and whatever. It’s just that concrete, blanket “scientifically.” #fan probably didn’t think twice about it, and I know the point he was making wasn’t shitty, so I actually didn’t want that to be the purpose of my post, it was just an added aside in a fun-spirited way — “I agree with everything but...” If I were peer-reviewing #fan’s work, I’d probably catch the wording and note it “awk.” But these are wrestling boards, so whatever. I’m actually pretty sure #fan wouldn’t use that word writing a hypothetical paper because it wasn’t part of his point.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:34 AM   #2101
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What would everyone’s thoughts on Cryme Tyme being Jericho’s partners? Or Shad Gaspard & Muhammad Hassan? They’ve just released a comic book together. Shad & JTG did a video claiming they “stole” the AEW World Title. I assume they want in.

They never thrilled me in the ring and they were presented as too much of an OTT gimmick, but there’s no doubt that they were super-charismatic guys, with some size to them too.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:01 AM   #2102
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#science
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Old 09-14-2019, 10:32 AM   #2103
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What would everyone’s thoughts on Cryme Tyme being Jericho’s partners? Or Shad Gaspard & Muhammad Hassan? They’ve just released a comic book together. Shad & JTG did a video claiming they “stole” the AEW World Title. I assume they want in.

They never thrilled me in the ring and they were presented as too much of an OTT gimmick, but there’s no doubt that they were super-charismatic guys, with some size to them too.
JTG in particular really bulked up. I saw him at WrestleCon and was floored by how huge he was considering he always looked like one of the smallest guys on the roster in WWE.

That said, I don't know if AEW is going to add even more teams just yet. Jericho's partners are almost assuredly going to be LAX.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:29 PM   #2104
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Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect View Post
Prove it. Scientifically.
Prove that she was a man? The fact that she's transgender, as in transitioned from one gender to her current, is proof. Why are you so bad at this?
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:32 PM   #2105
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Lmao "assigned" gender as if the doctor is sitting there trying to decide what declare. Nyla was born wth a penis. She's built like a man. She wasn't assigned her gender by a doctor. She was biologically born a male, with male genitalia. Whether or not she ever felt like a man, or identified as one, is irrelevant. Regardless of how she felt, she was born a man. She wasn't assigned to that gender group as if she was being picked for a team to play dodgeball on.
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:51 PM   #2106
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“Assigned Male Status” is one of the weirdest phrases I have ever heard. That said, I’ve not taken the time that Noid has to research/understand the innumerable complexities of the transgender individual.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:05 PM   #2107
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Quote:
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“Assigned Male Status” is one of the weirdest phrases I have ever heard. That said, I’ve not taken the time that Noid has to research/understand the innumerable complexities of the transgender individual.
Well, that's because you aren't a complete fucking idiot.

This hot take was brought to you by #Science.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:39 PM   #2108
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Noids thought process is amazing, how in the hell he went from trans people to trees I'll never know. At least now we all know that if a painting of a tree is actually a painting of a photo of a tree than it's not scientifically a tree.

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Like, a painting of a tree is scientifically “a tree.” Look at it, it’s a tree. It’s not the same thing as it being a conifer. Or it having actual roots in the ground. Or it also being made of paint. Or it being comprised of shapes. Or is it even a tree? Maybe it’s a painting of a photo of a tree? Maybe the artist did paint a tree and it’s supposed to be a tree and the artwork is called “Tree.” Whatever. That’s cool. But to see that painting, have no more information and to say “scientifically that is a tree.” Is it? It depends. It may be in how it is perceived and described by people, but it’s not botanically.
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Old 09-14-2019, 04:20 PM   #2109
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From a purely scientific standpoint, if Noid were to transition into a potato, his post quality would dramatically increase.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:02 PM   #2110
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Quote:
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Prove that she was a man? The fact that she's transgender, as in transitioned from one gender to her current, is proof. Why are you so bad at this?
Some trans people don’t identify with a fixed gender. Plenty of non-binary trans people. But we’re not talking about constructed gender here.

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Lmao "assigned" gender as if the doctor is sitting there trying to decide what declare. Nyla was born wth a penis. She's built like a man. She wasn't assigned her gender by a doctor. She was biologically born a male, with male genitalia. Whether or not she ever felt like a man, or identified as one, is irrelevant. Regardless of how she felt, she was born a man. She wasn't assigned to that gender group as if she was being picked for a team to play dodgeball on.
Plenty of women with penises, my dude. Not all the information about what is happening to someone is obvious and observable at birth. Assigning sex is totally a thing.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/le...ender-identity

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_assignment

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“Assigned Male Status” is one of the weirdest phrases I have ever heard. That said, I’ve not taken the time that Noid has to research/understand the innumerable complexities of the transgender individual.
It’s definitely a weird-sounding term if you aren’t used to it. Most people don’t think about this sort of stuff, because they don’t really need to. It’s only a small percentage of people it applies to and what ever. Normally you can differentiate sex based on phenotypical information. It’s just a small asterisk that hey, you can’t always 100%. Listen to how people like Rey are talking like they were actually in the room or watched Nyla grow up. It’s kind of pervasive, without meaning to be. And they’re so angry about it. So many people insist the existence of Nyla’s penis. And putting up your hand and saying “yo, it’s not necessarily like that” gets you ridiculed. No evidence to the contrary. The best point raised so far is “she’s transgender, so she must have been something else first.” A trick of words, not science.

I don’t know when she started transitioning. I don’t know when she realized “I am a woman.” I don’t know if she ever felt comfortable being called a male, or if it was always something her brain — real fucking scientific synapses — always rejected. I don’t need to. I’m not the one saying she scientifically used to be male. The onus is on the hypothesis to be provable.

When in the second grade, XL had an awkward experience with a girl. I don’t know this. I’m guessing based on what I know about growing up. It’s probable that you did at some point that year. I’ve been very unspecific as to what they experience is. It’s not scientific though. And if you came back and said “Actually, nah, it was a great year and nothing like that happened,” should I be completely shocked? And should I be so goddamn mad that you’re not making it so fucking simple for me. You wrote a book called “My Awkward Young Years” for crying out loud.

I dunno, it seems simple to me. Biological sex is sometimes, not always, more complicated than a binary. Gender is constructed, but sex is determined. That is determined by genealogical and environmental factors. Those factors are fact, but they don’t mean any assumption built off them is fact. If Nyla weighted 230lbs, that is a fact. Nyla weights 230lbs because she likes cheese sandwiches is an assumption until you know she’s 230lbs because she eats cheese sandwiches.

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Noids thought process is amazing, how in the hell he went from trans people to trees I'll never know. At least now we all know that if a painting of a tree is actually a painting of a photo of a tree than it's not scientifically a tree.
Fan, you are literally a nationalist piece of shit that doesn’t understand why someone would care about what happens to someone else in another part of the world. And you’re an Eli Drake fan. You have no input as to anything ever. You’ve struggled with what analogies are before too.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:04 PM   #2111
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JTG in particular really bulked up. I saw him at WrestleCon and was floored by how huge he was considering he always looked like one of the smallest guys on the roster in WWE.

That said, I don't know if AEW is going to add even more teams just yet. Jericho's partners are almost assuredly going to be LAX.
He did always look small in WWE. I always wondered if that was, in part, because he was standing next to Shad. He was billed as being something like 230lbs. May not be his shoot weight, but way bigger than I used to think of him as.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:17 PM   #2112
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We need more wars
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:02 PM   #2113
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Here’s an easy to read article that puts things succinctly, for those of you who like to read: https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:05 PM   #2114
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Yes Noid. She's an intersex. Just like about .05-.07% of the population.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inte...lation_figures

Perhaps you'd like to read, as well.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:55 PM   #2115
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Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
Yes Noid. She's an intersex. Just like about .05-.07% of the population.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inte...lation_figures

Perhaps you'd like to read, as well.
I’m not saying she’s intersex. And what do population figures have to do with anything? Transgender people are something like 0.6% of the population. Should we also just pretend they don’t exist or cite them being a rarity to ignore their existence if someone was talking about the gender binary? Should something being rare mark it as impossible? The rarity of DSDs are discussed in that article, so I can tell you didn’t read it. And, to re-stress, I am not saying Nyla is a case of that. I am just saying that biological sex is more complex than “penis = male.” Lots of stuff can go on, even if it isn’t likely.

And I’ve never said that #1-wwf-fan was probably wrong. I’m saying that to say she was categorically, definitively, concretely, authoritatively male is a declarative statement that I wouldn’t make. It is *probably* true. But #fan didn’t say “probably.” He said “scientifically.” It’s just that fucking word. #fan wasn’t doing this, but people use it to justify their bullshit all the time. “Oh, there are only two genders. It’s scientific.” No one here is doing that specific shitty thing (thank fuck), but it fucking pisses me off. They start with their hypothesis as a conclusion and then just say “science” as their methodology. Nah, fuck you.

If biological sex were as simple as “penis = male” scientists wouldn’t have to study for eight fucking years or whatever to get the qualifications to ask more questions about these things. I’ll let my friends in the medical field know that Damien Rey 2.0 has made their jobs redundant because intersex people are rare and if you’re transgender it means that you used to definitively be the other thing. Thanks for fixing that.

And the thing is, we don’t even know that Nyla was born with a penis. We don’t know the details of her identity or her formative journey. Maybe there’s a doco on her I missed? Even so, there are definite arguments to be made that how she exists now is proof in itself that she was never *scientifically* a he. Trans women are women, and I’d say that doesn’t start at the date of surgery. It goes way back through time, memory, experience and development.
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Old 09-16-2019, 01:31 PM   #2116
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:42 PM   #2117
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:55 PM   #2118
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Indy and Nashville, if they make a stop in the middle in Louisville I'll go.
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:34 PM   #2119
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I'm going I'm going I'm Going I'm going.
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Old 09-16-2019, 07:35 PM   #2120
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