DISCUSSION - Was Chris Jericho really "put over" the proper way and is CM Punk following suit?

[Heyman]

DISCUSSION - Was Chris Jericho really "put over" the proper way and is CM Punk following suit?

Let's face facts people. As great a career as Chris Jericho had, he was never the legend that he could have been....and should have been. Think back to 2000 onwards. Most times when he lost, he lost clean......whether it was to the likes of Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, Triple H, Edge, The Rock, John Cena, Batista, Goldberg, etc.

When he defeated a legit "top guy" however (I.e. The Rock, John Cena, Dave Batista, etc.), it was made to look like a flukey win at best. And yes - although he was heel for most his main event victories, you just never got the impression that he was on that level as a result.

Here's how you put someone over the correct way:
-Triple H defeating Mick Foley 3 times CLEANLY
-Batista defeating Triple H 3 times CLEANLY
-John Cena defeating Triple H CLEANLY

After defeating a top main-eventer legitimately cleanly (regardless of who is playing the face or the heel), the guy going over needs to be the main-eventer for PPV's. Period. He shouldn't be playing second fiddle.....otherwise the whole point of him going over gets wasted (think: Chris Benoit 2004).

This now leads me back to CM Punk.

CONCLUSION......and the point I'm trying to make.

If the WWE are truly serious about having CM Punk be the heir apparent to John Cena, then they need to have him start CLEANLY and CONVINCINGLY defeating wrestlers. Remember when Mark Henry defeated Kane, Big Show, Sheamus, and Randy Orton in CLEAN succession?

THAT is how you get a guy over.

Back in 2004-2005 when the WWE were getting Batista over, he was CLEANLY defeating guys like Benoit, Triple H, and Randy Orton.


If there is one thing you can take away from this thread, it's this:

Fluke victories ultimately do nothing for a wrestler in terms of solidfying his stature. Clean victories, followed by playing second fiddle in storylines, also achieves nothing.

Clean victories over top guys (Cena, Undertaker, Triple H.........possibly Big Show) + being in the most important storyline and main-eventing PPV's = is what leads to long term credibility and potential legacy.

If the WWE aren't careful with CM Punk, he'll basically be like Chris Jericho at best.

[#1-norm-fan]

His face run as champ was tainted by the fact that he wasn't beating anyone to retain his title. Constantly pinning Daniel Bryan clean was not gonna make him seem elite regardless of the internet's boner for Bryan. Once Show was constantly being made to look like a threat to Cena and Cena couldn't get a legit pinfall victory over him, Punk vs Show was definitely the way to go if they did keep Punk a face as him beating a guy Cena could only "escape" from (His only wins over him were via escaping a cage and grabbing a briefcase) would have made Punk seem at the very least on Cena's level without the two of them ever even having to cross paths.

Now as a heel, I'm not sure what they do. I don't think he's the kind of guy who can do what Triple H did and get over as the top guy as a heel in that manner. Not in the current landscape.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I agree with pretty much everything said here. Punk has had some pretty good clean wins, but he NEEDS one over Cena to solidify it all. It seems unlikely with the current storyline, though.

I'd actually love to see him beat Ryback cleanly.

[#1-norm-fan]

The match with Jericho at Extreme Rules is the match that best defines Punk's reign to me. Amazing potential but just not "big" enough to warrant the title being involved. I really wish they could have fit that Big Show match in before he turned heel to give the aura of "I did what John Cena couldn't do with no help whatsoever." It's not like they ended up using Show's latest monster push for anything better.

[DAMN iNATOR]

If you're talking about how Y2J was originally put over, then I have no problem with how they went about it. What better way to debut than to interrupt The Rock?

His matches at Vengeance ’01 to win the newly created Undisputed Championship were epic.

[drave]

He will definitely need to go over clean to seem more "credible", in the sense you are talking about here. I fear, even if he beats Cena @ HIAC, it will still have a "taint" (lulz) to it b/c of Cena's injury.

Hopefully this will happen when he faces Rock @ the Rumble. I really don't give two shits to see Cena/Rock again, but for some idiotic reason, I can see that happening again, and Rock getting the title, just to drop it @ WM. Needs to be Punk/Rock with a clean win.

Another Cena/Rock with Rock winning the title will make me quit watching WWE until Cena fuck's off for good.

[Heyman]

If you're talking about how Y2J was originally put over, then I have no problem with how they went about it. What better way to debut than to interrupt The Rock?

His matches at Vengeance ’01 to win the newly created Undisputed Championship were epic.

Sorry DAMN iNATOR but I completely disagree with your post.

-I absolutely loved Y2J's debut and had no problem with it whatsoever.

-Although Jericho defeated Austin and The Rock on the same night to become Undisputed champion, it ultimately did very little for his career. His victories over both Austin and Rock were made to look extremely flukey, and all title defenses after that were won in an equally flukey way. Jericho was than squashed by HHH at mania.

Remember that phantom CLEAN win that Jericho had over Triple H in 2000 ( it was a month or so before Summerslam if I recall correctly). (to which the decision was reversed later and the match technically never occurred).

I GUARANTEE that if the result of that match had stood, and Jericho had been legitimately made champ on that night, it would have done far more for his career than any of his "flukey" runs as World/WWE champ.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I often think about how Jericho never won the World Title as a babyface. Edge and Christian both got to do that, but Jericho only ever became champ as a heel. I guess you can maybe count his first WCW Title win as a face victory?

Now that CM Punk is a heel, I don't know if clean victories are the way to go with him. I mean, he still gets big wins. He's beaten quite a few guys cleanly -- only very occasionally someone higher on the roster than him, though. Right now I'd put him at #2 behind Cena in terms of credibility, though.

If John Cena is not able to work Hell in a Cell, I'd actually rather that the WWE put Vince McMahon or Triple H in there against Punk than Ryback -- who I just feel is not ready. I also feel that you'd need to put the WWE Title on Ryback, and while there are some that would be OK with that, I feel that it just derails Punk's momentum a little too much at the moment.

On RAW, Punk tells Vince that he's not going to jump through his hoops any longer. He's the man and he doesn't need this. He'll walk out if he has to choose between Cena or Ryback. But he will stay if he gets to face Vince inside the Cell. Vince says he has never backed away from a challenge in his life, so accepts. You can show Stephanie McMahon trying to talk her dad out of it, and Vince is all "I've got to teach this punk some respect!"

Brutalizing Vince at Hell in a Cell, sadly, would probably add far more credibility to CM Punk than a lot of people would care to admit.

[Savio]

CM Punk beat Cena 3 times during his time in nexus, then twice after leaving nexus, and then the double pinfall at NOC.

Cena beat punk once (Maybe twice) when he was in SES and a DQ victory cashing in his MITB.

Would love to see him beat Orton clean though, don't know if he ever beat him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think Punk going over babyfaces with two Wellness strikes against their name would make total sense, since the company would be unwise to ever give them the ball. Randy Orton and Rey Mysterio would make great fodder for Punk's WWE Title reign.

[#1-norm-fan]

Still can't believe they had Orton tap out to Del Rio. In theory that's a HUGE fucking moment for a heel. It turned out to be pretty throwaway. Punk being the (I think) first guy to make Orton tap out as a main event face would have been a pretty buge deal even if it was before his heel turn.

[Maluco]

To be honest I think it is a bigger issue than everything listed here. Going over people like Rey Mysterio would do absolutely nothing for him at this stage, nor would a win over Big Show. Cena is the ONLY big star WWE have and, for starters, Punk needs to beat him at Hell in a Cell clean to look like a dominant champ.

The BIG problem, in my opinion, is that the WWE should have started this transition years ago to help these guys get to the same level as the attitude stars from before. People can talk about legacy and all of that, but if we are really putting the company as a top priority, then at Mania, CM Punk should cleanly beat the Undertaker, breaking the streak and retiring him. (Followed by Rock losing to Cena and Sheamus beating HHH etc...)

For me, because of WWE's ineptitude storyline wise in the last 4-5 years, the only big wins left are against guys that are semi-retired...

[GD]

Still can't believe they had Orton tap out to Del Rio. In theory that's a HUGE fucking moment for a heel. It turned out to be pretty throwaway. Punk being the (I think) first guy to make Orton tap out as a main event face would have been a pretty buge deal even if it was before his heel turn.

Del Rio's win record is amazing. He also destroys mid carders in very short matches. Del Rio is a monster and a jobber to world champions.

[#1-norm-fan]

CM Punk beat Cena 3 times during his time in nexus, then twice after leaving nexus, and then the double pinfall at NOC.

Cena beat punk once (Maybe twice) when he was in SES and a DQ victory cashing in his MITB.

Cena pinned Punk on Raw a week after SummerSlam last year too to become the #1 contender for the WWE Title at Night of Champions too.

[#1-norm-fan]

And apparently there's a shitload of other matches between the two I'd forgotten about.

http://www.wrestleenigma.com/cm-punk-vs-john-cena-the-complete-background-and-history

Complete history of the feud up to Raw 1000.

So including the matches that have happened since and not including triple threat and tag matches, Punk leads the series 6-4-2 with 2 wins coming by DQ.

[#1-norm-fan]

It's easy to see why WWE needs to bring back guys like Rock and Lesnar to work part time. It's tough to make good "big fight feel" matches for WrestleMania using a roster of guys who face each other constantly already, many times on free TV.

[Emperor Smeat]

Agree that CM Punk is following the Jericho route in a sense that he's a multi-time champion and a very reliable star when it comes to generating great matches but not an upper tier or legendary star in the WWE's eyes.

I'd argue CM Punk's Nexus was more tailor-made to go against Orton than against Cena since it was basically a rehash feud either way and that Punk's real fights against Cena don't occur until MitB at Chicago in 2011.

[KIRA]

His face run as champ was tainted by the fact that he wasn't beating anyone to retain his title. Constantly pinning Daniel Bryan clean was not gonna make him seem elite regardless of the internet's boner for Bryan. Once Show was constantly being made to look like a threat to Cena and Cena couldn't get a legit pinfall victory over him, Punk vs Show was definitely the way to go if they did keep Punk a face as him beating a guy Cena could only "escape" from (His only wins over him were via escaping a cage and grabbing a briefcase) would have made Punk seem at the very least on Cena's level without the two of them ever even having to cross paths.

Now as a heel, I'm not sure what they do. I don't think he's the kind of guy who can do what Triple H did and get over as the top guy as a heel in that manner. Not in the current landscape.

Triple H had a few things that punk dosent have great adversaries to play off of and the leway to be brutal in his matches. Cenas a good foil for Punk and I guess time will tell if Ryback is a worthy opponent.

[Heyman]

I just find it funny that the ONLY guy in recent years that the WWE really 'put over' in the completely correct way, was what they did with Mark Henry last year when he CLEANLY defeated (in succession) Kane, Big Show, Sheamus, and Randy Orton.

Of course, the WWE brought Henry down to earth soon after, but that is the exact way one should take a mid-card/jobber wrestler, and establish him as a legit top guy. Period.

In today's wrestling world, victories don't mean shit. CLEAN and CONVINCING victories (perhaps multiple times over the same top tier wrestler, or over a few different top tier guys in the company) are the only things that matter.

[Heyman]

Triple H had a few things that punk dosent have great adversaries to play off of and the leway to be brutal in his matches. Cenas a good foil for Punk and I guess time will tell if Ryback is a worthy opponent.

If the WWE are serious with CM Punk, they will have him defeat one of Cena or The Rock cleanly and convincingly at some point.

Fluke victories for Punk will do nothing for his credibility.

[Heyman]

I'd argue CM Punk's Nexus was more tailor-made to go against Orton than against Cena since it was basically a rehash feud either way and that Punk's real fights against Cena don't occur until MitB at Chicago in 2011.

Completely agree with this......particularly the second point.

[Heyman]

It's easy to see why WWE needs to bring back guys like Rock and Lesnar to work part time. It's tough to make good "big fight feel" matches for WrestleMania using a roster of guys who face each other constantly already, many times on free TV.

You don't even need guys like The Rock, Lesnar, Taker, etc. to help wrestlers gain massive credibility. Again - I use Mark Henry from last year as an example.

Why the WWE have chosen not to build Punk in this way is beyond me. I'm. To saying he has to phsyically dominate opponents in the way that Henry did last year, but atleast have Punk go over cleanly and convincingly.

CM Punk is the only guy in the company right now that has potential to take Cena's spot in the company. CM Punk should be cleanly and convincingly beating guys like Orton, Sheamus, Big Show, Ryback,.......and then ultimately, The Rock.

I wouldn't have Punk go over Cena cleanly and convincingly yet since Cena is still the franchise of the company, but atleast make Punk look like he could go out there and dominate against Cena.

[Hanso Amore]

Not sure why you guys think a Heel cant win clean. HHH always put down the competition and was the last credible Heel Champ.

Speaking of HHH, Punk should have beat him at NOC last year during the Kevin Nash thing. He was their top rising star, soon became the champ, but right before that was going down to a guy who wrestles 2 times a year.

[Heyman]

Not sure why you guys think a Heel cant win clean. HHH always put down the competition and was the last credible Heel Champ.

Speaking of HHH, Punk should have beat him at NOC last year during the Kevin Nash thing. He was their top rising star, soon became the champ, but right before that was going down to a guy who wrestles 2 times a year.

Exactly. No way Punk should have jobbed to HHH in that match when his momentum was sky high. Brain dead decision on the WWE's part.

Triple H should have also jobbed to Randy Orton at Wrestlemania in that one year they main-evented (2009?). Orton's momentum was also sky high at the time.

[Pintint]

Totally agree, the cheap sneaky heel shtick isn't making Punk look strong, despite the amazing work he is putting in. In order to solidify himself he needs a completely clean win over Cena and Triple H where he clearly outwrestles them.

It seems WWE are seeing big things in Punk's future, so maybe we will see that play out.

[Rock Bottom]

Jericho is extremely overrated. Him being in the last rounds of best wrestler was also flukey.

[Gertner]

He'll never get THAT over, because he's just not that good.

[#1-norm-fan]

You don't even need guys like The Rock, Lesnar, Taker, etc. to help wrestlers gain massive credibility. Again - I use Mark Henry from last year as an example.

I wasn't saying they need those guys to help their full time guys gain credibility. I was saying they need those guys to make a "big fight feel" match for WrestleMania. Outside Cena, none of them are capable of taking on the duties of a WrestleMania main event without one of those part timers. It's not that they can't build guys to that level. It's that they have failed to do so and seem completely retarded as to how to get it done.

Mark Henry was being booked fucking brilliantly as a heel until injuries and/or them changing their mind on the direction they wanted to go ruined it all. They should really look at that as a blueprint on truly building a character up. He was on his way.

[scatterbrain28]

Jericho could have been made stronger, and if I was with WWF Creative/road agent in 2001-2002, here's what I'd do:

I'd have Jericho beat Steve Austin and Rock clean at Armageddon 2001 to unify the two World titles.

Rock:counters a Rock Bottom with a DDT and gives a Lionsault for 3
Austin: Blocks the Stunner into a Breakdown.

By doing this, I've established that Jericho can hang with the best, and when he does cheat, he'll get more heat because he's telling fans "I can beat this guy, I just choose not to."

Leading up to the Royal Rumble, Jericho will continue to harass the Rock, even breaking into his house and set up Christmas decorations while Rock beats the crap out of him and kicks him out of the house. He'd cheat to win in some matches and win cleanly in others, so there's a fine balance.

At the Royal Rumble, I'd have Jericho hit Rock with the belt to retain the title.

Leading to No Way Out, Austin wonders how he lost to Jericho. Does he still have it? was it a fluke?

No Way Out: Jericho defends Undisputed WWF title in Last Man Standing match and Jericho retains title. (Just facing Austin in another singles match seems old hat.)

I'm gonna get some Crash TV now

Leading up to WrestleMania: Stephanie breaks up with HHH by revealing she was having an affair with Chris Jericho. In the ensuing weeks, this causes Hunter to lose his mind after having Jericho beat him up and kissing Stephanie in front of him.

On RAW, Jericho even reveals that Stephanie his having his baby. HHH starts to lose it and tears up his room. HBK shows up, saying that someone from above told him his friend was in trouble. HBK tells his friend to get it together, that he's a strong guy and can get through this.

WrestleMania: HHH challenges Y2J for the Undisputed title in a 2/3 falls match, no DQ.

1st fall: HHH blocks the Walls of Jericho into a small package
2nd fall: Jericho blocks the Pedigree into a jackknife pin
3rd fall: HHH gives Jericho one Pedigree, then another on a chair for 3 and the championship.

On the following Smackdown, Jericho and Stephanie come out to the ring holding a folder, claiming it's a picture of an ultrasound of their baby. Instead, they show a picture with a baby with HHH's face on it, and said they made it up. While they are laughing, HHH runs to the ring while Y2J runs out.

Next Week on Smackdown, Jericho brings out a man in a hood handcuffed behind his back to the ring. We remove the hood and see HBK. Jericho says that HBK will bow down and worship him. When he refuses, Y2J hits him in the knees with a kendo stick and does it multiple times until HHH hits the ring and gives Jericho a Pedigree.

Backlash: HHH and Y2J face off in a no holds barred, falls cound anywhere match for the Undisputed title. Y2J gives HHH a Breaksdown through an announcer's table to win back the title.

After the match, the #1 contender RVD hits the ring and pounds on Y2J while Stephanie pulls him away.

The saga continues.

[Juan]

I think they're gonna eventually do a Cena/Punk match at Mania. They have to. These guys have epic matches left and right, but never on the big stage. Could be huge

[Shisen Kopf]

Cena/Punk has been done to death though. Undertaker vs Cena is probably gonna be the next "once (or twice) in a lifetime match. Kinda reminds me of this
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120504232848/priceisright/images/thumb/0/0a/Hole_in_One_or_Two_2.jpg/320px-Hole_in_One_or_Two_2.jpghttp://www.chris-place.com/game-shows/shows/price-is-right/images/games/hole-in-one-03.jpg

[Bad News Gertner]

Jericho made it very big. He was never going to be a franchise guy and didn't have that ability. Not too sure what more you were expecting.

[James Steele]

Jericho can be a top heel, but not the #1 babyface.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I think they're gonna eventually do a Cena/Punk match at Mania. They have to. These guys have epic matches left and right, but never on the big stage. Could be huge

Was thinking they could do a WM X situation or something like that where the opening match of the night is Punk/Bryan to make it "even" and Cenas first defence of the night is against Dolph (Or Jericho if he's still around. Or long shot Kurt Angle) where Cena retains but then it's Cena/Punk to close the show.