QUESTION - What are the differences in philosophies between Heyman and Steph McMahon?

[Heyman]

QUESTION - What are the differences in philosophies between Heyman and Steph McMahon?

So apparently - Stephanie was responsible for having Heyman removed from the creative team.

My question is, on what stuff did they disagree on? What were the main issues? Does anyone on here know?



The only thing that I know, is that they disagreed on the Cruiserweights. If I understand correctly, Paul Heyman wanted to push the CW division.......while Stephanie was against it.

Since this is the only issue that I'm aware of (in terms of Heyman/Steph's difference), I will comment on this.


Basically - I DO think that the CW division/title should be CANCELLED.

The WWE does a terrible job with the CW division IMO. Ultimately - the CW division basically serves as a "kiss of death" in terms of wrestlers winning any other singles title. In the WWE, it's basically a stigma to be labelled a "cruiserweight".

If it was up to me, the CW division would be replaced with a Hardcore 24/7 title/division.

The Cruiserweight style of wrestling would still exist, but they would exist in the tag team division, United States title division, and even the WWE title division.

Without an actual CW title, guys like Billy Kidman, Paul London, and Rey Mysterio can win more important titles.

[Loose Cannon]

oh god, if you heard everything I have read and heard they have disagreed on, it would take me a while to write. Basically, they are complete opposites. Heyman's philosophy is a very non-hollywood type of writing and booking. Steph loves the hollywood stuff. Steph loves stuff like Kane/Lita/Hardy love triangle. I'm pretty sure Heyman was the guy who booked those awesome tag matches with Angle/Benoit vs Guerreros two years ago. Heyman is about good wrestling with a great story behind it. Steph is all about soap opera storylines

Steph also depises ECW and was the one against the whole ECW PPV. The only way Vince agreed for that to go through, if it even is, was because the DVD sales were very good.

[loopydate]

No more Hardcore 24/7.

That's pretty much my one big thought on this. If you think the Cruiserweight title is a stigma, let's tally up the other title shots racked up by 20-time Hardcore Champion Raven, shall we?

[Heyman]

oh god, if you heard everything I have read and heard they have disagreed on, it would take me a while to write. Basically, they are complete opposites. Heyman's philosophy is a very non-hollywood type of writing and booking. Steph loves the hollywood stuff. Steph loves stuff like Kane/Lita/Hardy love triangle. I'm pretty sure Heyman was the guy who booked those awesome tag matches with Angle/Benoit vs Guerreros two years ago. Heyman is about good wrestling with a great story behind it. Steph is all about soap opera storylines

Steph also depises ECW and was the one against the whole ECW PPV. The only way Vince agreed for that to go through, if it even is, was because the DVD sales were very good.


Hmmmmmm......

I guess from an objective standpoint, I can see where both stand (I think?).



1) One thing I'm not sure about with Heyman's style of booking, is that too many great matches will be blown on TV (which means that less people may order PPV's). People may get injured faster as well?

2) I think the "Hollywood Soap Opera" formula could potentially be GREAT (i.e. Angle/Steph/HHH), but it could also be CHEESY as well. In the last few years, I think we've seen too much CHEESY.


p.s. Hey LC - do you have some links where I can read some of the stuff that you've read? (so I can get a better idea on where they stand on WHAT issue?).

That's ofcourse..........if you're too lazy to write everything out.

U LAZY BITCH. :p ;)

[Corkscrewed]

Frankly, the only reason the CW division has become a stigma is because of how they've handled it. It's a sort of Catch-22... they screw the division up, so you don't want to be in it, and because it's screwed up, the excuse is to can it.

On the other hand, if they booked it well, it'd be an honor to be in it. Heck, look at the US Title... Cena's built that thing up so damn well that whoever beats him probably will look very impressive. In any case, for a few months, the US Title scene looked a heck of a lot more prestigious than JBL's title.

[mike627]

On the whole I like Heymen's style of booking.Steph just wants yes-men and women on her creative-team IMO.

[Scorpion]

Heyman was dismissed for listening in too a Raw booking meeting without permission.

Vince McMahon basically had to convince Stephanie to let Heyman back on the booking team the last time there were problems and she was very reluctant to do so, but this time it may be impossible to convince Stephanie that Heyman is trustworthy enough to be on the booking team.

It may not be helping that Heyman is playing this situation as if he was removed because he is outspoken, because as it has turned out it was purely because of trustworthy issues

[Heyman]

Frankly, the only reason the CW division has become a stigma is because of how they've handled it. It's a sort of Catch-22... they screw the division up, so you don't want to be in it, and because it's screwed up, the excuse is to can it.

On the other hand, if they booked it well, it'd be an honor to be in it. Heck, look at the US Title... Cena's built that thing up so damn well that whoever beats him probably will look very impressive. In any case, for a few months, the US Title scene looked a heck of a lot more prestigious than JBL's title.

I wholeheartedly agree (with how they've mishandled the CW division).

Still - has there EVER been an instance where a former CW champ has become a WORLD champion? (outside Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit?).

Even with that being said, guys like Jericho and Guerrero were CW in WCW (not in the WWE).


Even if the CW division is built up fabulously, does it just serve as an indirect way of telling the fans that THESE PEOPLE ARE SIDESHOWS..........and will NEVER be MAIN-EVENTERS!?!!


I'd argue that it does. :'(

[Nowhere Man]

Not entirely. A well-booked roster could easily transfer its cruiserweights into the main event scene. Look at TNA; Styles went from being one of the top X-Division contenders to TNA Champion fairly easily. ECW had very little trouble getting Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn into the main-event spotlight.

And it's not just an indy-fed thing; WCW did it on a few occasions (Kidman vs. Hogan, anyone?) Even in WWE it's not impossible for a cruiser to break the glass ceiling; Rey Mysterio was monstrously over for some time, running main events with Angle, Benoit, and Lesnar. And he's been a staple of any cruiserweight division he's ever been part of. Hell, during the InVasion, RVD was getting bigger pops than The Rock on a regular basis.

All that needs to happen is that one hot streak, one upset, that one match where the cruiser underdog gets the WWE Title from the big guys. Then, not only will that particular cruiser be recognized as someone to be reckoned with, but the entire division gains credibility. If more cruisers start getting active in other areas, say the U.S. Title scene and Tag Titles, then their division will look better for it, and the division's title will gain more prestige.

Realistically though, all that the WWE Cruiserweight Title really means is that whoever's holding it is the Best of the Jobbers, a Crown of Crap if you will. Still, it's not entirely hopeless.

[Heyman]

No more Hardcore 24/7.

That's pretty much my one big thought on this. If you think the Cruiserweight title is a stigma, let's tally up the other title shots racked up by 20-time Hardcore Champion Raven, shall we?


The hardcore title is a joke, but it also serves as a good comedic relief as times (something that the CW division, should NOT do IMO). The hardcore title (24/7 rule) also allowed for more people to get TV time.

Maybe its just me, but I liked how the title was defended at airports, circuses, backstage, etc. It was a great side story line. Who can ever forget about Hardcore Holly and Al Snow fighting down by the river?



The division was a joke, but I also think most marks found it comical. But that's just my opinion.

[Loose Cannon]

I loved the Hardcore Title. Crash in the Chucky Cheese place was fucking classic

[Heyman]

I loved the Hardcore Title. Crash in the Chucky Cheese place was fucking classic


Exactly. :y:

The Division may have been a joke, but it was great comedic relief.....and was a wonderful "side story" to the more important ones.

The other great thing about the Hardcore title, was that "main-event" wrestlers often took part in it as well (i.e. Big Show, Kane, Foley, etc.).

Seeing as how Smackdown HAS guys like RVD, Dudleys, etc., they could really use something like that.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah, a main event guy would sometimes just decide to go for the title for some fun. It was pretty good at times, but I didn't like the title changes at house shows. It became too hard to follow.

I like the idea of the cruiserweight division, and if they made the Cruiserweight Title seem like the WWE Championship for people 220lbs and under, you could really have a good division. Hell, make it 230lbs, so occasionally we can see RVD and Charlie Haas challenge for the title. Make the core of the division the high-flying stuff, but have guys WRESTLING over the belt as well.

Personally, if I was Vince, I'd keep Stephanie on RAW, and let her do whatever she wants there, and have Heyman run things on SmackDown!. Watch Heyman turn the tides and make us all flock over to SD! faster than you can say "Rhyno's getting a push.". Let Heyman do commentatry with Michael Cole and Tazz occasionally, and watch the fans chant "We Want Moore!" from that point on when Heyman gets him over as a decent cruiserweight.

SmackDown! has all the tools RAW has, it just doesn't have anyone using them right, particularly because the overruling power backstage is more concerned with her husband's show than the hsow that's slowly sinking beneath the pressure and depression of the current SD! scene. JBL vs. Big Show could be feud of the decade if Heyman got behind the wheel (exaggeration intended), and I swear Kurt Angle would stll be having MOTY candidates on SmackDown! with the fans extremely into his character again if Heyman was writing. It even boosts morale when Heyman is the pen and paper behind the blue and white domain of everybody's corporate Texan. SmackDown! would be a roller coaster instead of a train ride, and I really think the WWE should realise this.

I have no problems with the Hollywood style backstage, but the focus of the show should be wrestling. Include the Hollywood stuff occasionally. Seriously, no one can deny the greatness of the Angle/Steph/Hunter love triangle in mid-late 2000, and if they did somehting worthy like that backstage occasionally, the WWE would be in a high, IMO. Segments like Muhammad Hassan's promos, Simon Dean's advertising segments and Jerichos' Highlight Reel would seem like extentions of their characters', rather than just somehting put in there by the booking team.

By that I mean that the WWE has become so Hollywood-style based that nothing seems shocking anymore. Everything seems so planned, pre-determined and scripted that nothing will seem genuinely character-based, which is what I think the WWE should make all their skits based on.

[Fox]

The main conflict between Steph and Heyman is merely ego.

Steph, as the owner's daughter, feels that she has all the power in the world to do whatever she pleases, whether it's working or not. Her writing and ideas are prominently soap opera based, and while they may seem like a good idea on paper, they simply do not play out well on TV. Why? Because these are wrestlers we're dealing with; not actors. The Kane/Lita/Snitsky angle could have been a thing of beauty, but the fact of the matter was that Lita and Kane were not good enough actors to pull off such a melodramatic angle. Despite week-after-week occurences of horrible promos by Lita, the angle continued in full force, which comes back to Steph's ego problem. She can't recognize when one of her ideas is a failure.

Paul Heyman is a genius when it comes to the creative side of professional wrestling; always has been, always will be. ECW never would've made it to where it did had it not been for Heyman's ability to create powerful angles and play to wrestlers' strengths. Raven is a perfect example of this. He saw Raven as a dark loner, which is basically who he really was, and turned it into one of the greatest angles in ECW history. He saw Benoit as a killer, and after he broke Sabu's neck, he capitalized on it and called Benoit "The Crippler." And it worked.

The WWE is Heyman's dream come true: a pool of the greatest wrestlers in North America with enough financial backing to do whatever the hell he wants. His imagination is the limit. In ECW, his problems were purely financial. He knew they didn't have the money for the pyro, the lighting, the highly technical TV packaging, so he played to what they did have: better wrestlers, better interviews, and better angles. In the WWE, Heyman could do all of that, PLUS the money to make them work two-fold.

Unfortunately, with the current situation in the WWE, Paul's limitations are the people above him. Were he given supreme reign over Smackdown, I have no doubt that he would take it above and beyond all expectations. SD has the talent, they have the money, they have the time slot, all they need are the right ideas. Paul probably cringes every time he remembers that JBL is the World Champion. He KNOWS he can do better than Gerwitz. Fuck, Gerwitz probably knows Paul can do better than Gerwitz. But he'll never have that chance because he'll never have the power.

Steph is afraid of what Paul Heyman could do with the WWE. She and Hunter both must realize the kind of revolutionary changes Paul could make to Smackdown and the WWE if he were given the opportunity, and that scares them. It scares them because they know if Vince ever put more faith in Paul Heyman than he does in Steph and HHH, their angles would never make it on air, and everything would change for them. Triple H's 3-year reign on top of RAW would come to an end, as new angles and new faces would be brought to the frontlines. They fear Heyman because he is a creative competitor.

It's a God damn shame that Paul Heyman is being treated the way he is. It struck me profoundly when, on the ECW DVD, Paul said that he joined WCW even though he hated everything they stood for and everything they were about. It makes me wonder if he joined WWE despite the same beliefs about the company. He hates them to the very core, but he knew he could help out the bottom feeding guys who deserved a chance, and that's what he's been trying to do this whole time.

In the current wrestling industry, Paul Heyman has no place to call home. In the WWE he will always be held down by people like Vince McMahon, Stephanie McMahon, Brian Gerwitz and Triple H. In NWA-TNA, he would be held down by the Jarrets and their creative beliefs (those being that Jeff Jarrett is a God).

Like I said, it's a damn shame.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The main conflict between Steph and Heyman is merely ego.

Steph, as the owner's daughter, feels that she has all the power in the world to do whatever she pleases, whether it's working or not. Her writing and ideas are prominently soap opera based, and while they may seem like a good idea on paper, they simply do not play out well on TV. Why? Because these are wrestlers we're dealing with; not actors. The Kane/Lita/Snitsky angle could have been a thing of beauty, but the fact of the matter was that Lita and Kane were not good enough actors to pull off such a melodramatic angle. Despite week-after-week occurences of horrible promos by Lita, the angle continued in full force, which comes back to Steph's ego problem. She can't recognize when one of her ideas is a failure.

Paul Heyman is a genius when it comes to the creative side of professional wrestling; always has been, always will be. ECW never would've made it to where it did had it not been for Heyman's ability to create powerful angles and play to wrestlers' strengths. Raven is a perfect example of this. He saw Raven as a dark loner, which is basically who he really was, and turned it into one of the greatest angles in ECW history. He saw Benoit as a killer, and after he broke Sabu's neck, he capitalized on it and called Benoit "The Crippler." And it worked.

The WWE is Heyman's dream come true: a pool of the greatest wrestlers in North America with enough financial backing to do whatever the hell he wants. His imagination is the limit. In ECW, his problems were purely financial. He knew they didn't have the money for the pyro, the lighting, the highly technical TV packaging, so he played to what they did have: better wrestlers, better interviews, and better angles. In the WWE, Heyman could do all of that, PLUS the money to make them work two-fold.

Unfortunately, with the current situation in the WWE, Paul's limitations are the people above him. Were he given supreme reign over Smackdown, I have no doubt that he would take it above and beyond all expectations. SD has the talent, they have the money, they have the time slot, all they need are the right ideas. Paul probably cringes every time he remembers that JBL is the World Champion. He KNOWS he can do better than Gerwitz. Fuck, Gerwitz probably knows Paul can do better than Gerwitz. But he'll never have that chance because he'll never have the power.

Steph is afraid of what Paul Heyman could do with the WWE. She and Hunter both must realize the kind of revolutionary changes Paul could make to Smackdown and the WWE if he were given the opportunity, and that scares them. It scares them because they know if Vince ever put more faith in Paul Heyman than he does in Steph and HHH, their angles would never make it on air, and everything would change for them. Triple H's 3-year reign on top of RAW would come to an end, as new angles and new faces would be brought to the frontlines. They fear Heyman because he is a creative competitor.

It's a God damn shame that Paul Heyman is being treated the way he is. It struck me profoundly when, on the ECW DVD, Paul said that he joined WCW even though he hated everything they stood for and everything they were about. It makes me wonder if he joined WWE despite the same beliefs about the company. He hates them to the very core, but he knew he could help out the bottom feeding guys who deserved a chance, and that's what he's been trying to do this whole time.

In the current wrestling industry, Paul Heyman has no place to call home. In the WWE he will always be held down by people like Vince McMahon, Stephanie McMahon, Brian Gerwitz and Triple H. In NWA-TNA, he would be held down by the Jarrets and their creative beliefs (those being that Jeff Jarrett is a God).

Like I said, it's a damn shame.

Great post man, great post. But I do have to disagree with some of the points you made.

The first is that I believe Kane was a good enough actor to pull off the stuff that was handed to him. If they get a really good director and a really good writer for Kane's new movie (which they hopefully give a title which screams interesting but not "We're trying to be funny and cool."), Kane could really shine as a gem in that movie. While he probably won't be a Rock, his facial expressions and his timing with promos are near-perfect, and really if he had a feud with anyone who can pour as much emotion into his roles as Kane (Foley, Flair, Benoit, Jericho, Batista, etc.), Kane could really fill-in the entertainment part of sports entertainment, while creating a good mold for the sports part. Combined with his size and gimmick, Kane really is one of the biggest assets to the WWE, IMO, and it's a shame this would probably never be capitalised on, because Glen Jacobs cannot be Kane anywhere else (however this movie could be a step towards gaining his own identity if he does well and the movie isn't a flop).

Second of all, while Stephanie McMahon may not like that Paul Heyman isn't a McMahon, but still has the same passion and talent for creating an appealing product is definately true to an extent. What I disagree with is this being totally Stephanie's fault.

Heyman has spoken out against the company several times. Heyman knows he is secure there as long as he doesn't do anything too stupid. Heyman, being who he is, isn't going to let anything fly. He's not going to forget, and he may never get passed his glory days, and it's really a shame, because if he buckled down and became a yes-man to an extent (just to the part where he says "I understand, Mr McMahon.", he doesn't need to suck up), I could see no reaosn why there wouldn't be more of a mutual relationship between Heyman and Stephanie.

Stephanie McMahon has nothing to lose working with Heyman, and Heyman really has the world to gain. Yet both their personalities have set each other off, and I doubt we will ever see them on the same page unless Heyman wisens up. Not in a creative sense of course, but in a pratcical sense. Yes Heyman is one of the greatest minds in the business, no he is not the best person to work with, and the worse trait of all working against him is his tendancy to bitch and moan.

I don't mean this in an offensive way to Mr Heyman or his supporters, because I love what ECW has done. I love the aura it has, and the feelings it puts in people (despite me never actually following the company or watching a little more than a fraction of its greatness), don't get me wrong, but it is gone. His utopia is gone, and as much as we wished it was back, it ain't coming back. Heyman has a perfectly good chance with the WWE, though. They opened the doors for Heyman to transform their product several times, and Hyeman has, to an extent. Heyman didn't take this in the most beneficial way, and while we may not like to think it, Heyman didn't exactly scream "Thank you for this opportunity!" when he became a WWE writer.

[Hired Hitman]

"Steph is afraid of what Paul Heyman could do with the WWE."

That could be something, she wants her father to focus on her more than other writers.

I have not seen an ECW show, but I feel by your words that he is one of the best writers. If that is the case I don't see why Paul & Stephanie can't mix ideas together, he writes the wrestling, she writes the soap opera side.

unless They really can't work together for the benefit of the show, then what can they do :-\

[Vastardikai]

If they could get along, I'd say have a show booked by two of the best minds in the business: Heyman and Jim Cornette.

[tucsonspeed6]

You know, for a while it looked like they were doing the CW div. some justice. THey had an entire storyline about Matt Hardy losing weight just so he could get IN to the division and compete for the title. Now if that isn't giving the title some credibility, I don't know what is. If they did that again, I wouldn't have any problems with it.

[The CyNick]

Not to promote another site, but between the ropes has a really good interview up on their site with Heyman. He pretty much addresses the major difference between himself and the other writers and Steph as well.

As for the Hardcore title, I think its one of those things that was good while it was around, but to try to recreate it would be like all the times they've tried to bring back DX or NWO. The newer versions always suck compared to the originals.

The CW title bashing is pretty pathetic. You guys already made my point by saying Jericho, Eddie and Chris were junior heavyweight champions in various promotions.

Yes its true, in the WWE the CW title will always be a joke, but thats because of the WWE, it has nothing to do with the talent or the fact that they are small.

Oscar De La Hoya draws more money than anyone else in boxing, and he's no heavyweight, so obviously people will buy into cruisers as top draws, they just have to be booked right.

That said, I wouldn't be against dropping the CW title, but not for the HC title. I would rather see them bring back the Euro or TV title, and then take the rest of the guys and bolster the tag division.

[Heyman]

The CW title bashing is pretty pathetic. You guys already made my point by saying Jericho, Eddie and Chris were junior heavyweight champions in various promotions.

Yes its true, in the WWE the CW title will always be a joke, but thats because of the WWE, it has nothing to do with the talent or the fact that they are small.



Oh hey,

Don't get me wrong man. I love the CW style of wrestling. I'm just arguing the the CW title (the way the WWE runs it) looks more like a STIGMA than an achievment.

How many times have we seen guys like Rey Mysterio, etc. get completely dessmiated by Big Show, etc. In the past year or so, we've seen Chavo classic (a retired wrestler), Jacqueline (a woman), and Spike Dudley (a jobber in the WWE) been CW champs.


IDEALLY.....the WWE would run a credible CW division, where they were COMPLETELY distinct and seperate from the other divisions.....while being treated with respect (like the Women's Division on Raw?).

Unfortunately however - we just aren't seeing that.......and I doubt that we ever will.

That's why I suggested that the CW title be cancelled (not to be confused wiht the CW style of wrestling).

For example - guys like Kidman and Mysterio could compete for the U.S. title against one another........or beyond that (and the CW style of wrestling would still exist) .


I apologize if you thought I was unfairly bashing Cruiserweights. :?: :wtf: :?:

[The CyNick]

No I know you wouldn't say that.

But the point is the guys that were mentioned (Jericho, Eddie, Benoit) have all held JR hvwt titles, and still went on to main event, well sorta.

If being CW champ really was a stigma, neither of those guys would have reached the heights they hit.

My point is that this is a WWE problem. If CWs are booked right, they can get over, its done everywhere else, except the WWE.