Submission moves

[Ben Rodrigues]

Inspired by that other thread about retiring certain holds.

What happend to the days when submission moves we're effective? In the 90's when a submission move was applied with "excellent ring positioning" there would be no way out. Now it seems no matter what the hold, guys simply push up and find their way to the ropes (unless it's Cena's STF).

Another thing, when did the WWE feel the need to the rid us of the "get to the ropes, break" rule. I know it's still enforced, but they've changed the concept behind it. Kurt Angle's Ankle Lock is a great example. He gets them in the hold, they get to the ropes and then he's able to pull them back to the center of the ring without breaking the hold.

Thoughts on the matter?

[Xero]

They're stronger now than ever. :shifty:

As for the break rule, they've added a five count. I don't think the five count was in effect 6+ years ago, they had to break the hold right away or they were DQ'd.

[Ben Rodrigues]

You sure about that? I'm pretty sure they've always had the five count rule.

[Xero]

They've had five count rules for chokes on the ropes and hand chokes, but I'm fairly sure I remember moves being broken up right away if they reached the ropes.

[Ben Rodrigues]

Hmmm... I'll probably go through my wrestling collection tomorrow to find that out.

[Kane Knight]

They're stronger now than ever. :shifty:

As for the break rule, they've added a five count. I don't think the five count was in effect 6+ years ago, they had to break the hold right away or they were DQ'd.

There was a 5 count 6+ years ago, and it wasn't reset by pulling someone off the ropes. In fact, it wasn't until recently that they could do that. Previously, if you had gotten someone off the ropes, they'd still tell you to break it.

[korinkahn]

In general superstars do not use the ropes to break moves or the coners of the ring anymore and it takes away from the drama. I recall Ric Flair v Bret Hart- Flair would coner Bret, push Hart in the chest and Bret would slap the taste out of Flair's mouth it really built tension.

[Ben Rodrigues]

In general superstars do not use the ropes to break moves or the coners of the ring anymore and it takes away from the drama. I recall Ric Flair v Bret Hart- Flair would coner Bret, push Hart in the chest and Bret would slap the taste out of Flair's mouth it really built tension.

Watch Hogan/Michaels at Summerslam 2005.

[korinkahn]

Watch Hogan/Michaels at Summerslam 2005.


I proves my point, two old school wrestlers

[Xero]

There was a 5 count 6+ years ago, and it wasn't reset by pulling someone off the ropes. In fact, it wasn't until recently that they could do that. Previously, if you had gotten someone off the ropes, they'd still tell you to break it.
I may be getting it confused with that, but I can still see a ref in my head forcing them to break a hold before he even started to count.

[Ben Rodrigues]

I'm pretty sure it would've been a "Break the hold! 1 - 2- 3..." and so forth.

[El Fangel]

I can't remember who or when, But i seem to remember a match, where wrestler A was in a submission, got to the ropes and the hold was broken by the order of the ref, then later, when the situation was reversed, the wrestler held onto the ropes, the ref didn't count, Wrestler B got pulled away from the ropes, and the ref allowed it, Then when wrestler B got to the ropes again the ref finally broke it up.

Again Im unsure of the event, match or wrestlers, but reading this thread made me remember for some reason.

[Kane Knight]

I may be getting it confused with that, but I can still see a ref in my head forcing them to break a hold before he even started to count.

JR used to describe the count as a discretionary thing, ref's perogative.

[El Fangel]

oh, well maybe that explains what I posted before, because when I watched the match I was like WTF?

[Kane Knight]

You'll also notice that a 5 count sometimes ends in the ref pulling the heel off the face when the face has reached the ropes and the 5 count is up. In other words, he didn't DQ him.

While you could argue that it's "just" an inconsistency in wrestling, JR has also referred to this as "Discretionary." Now it just gets blatantly ignored, but it's been explained away in the past (And about as often as you hear the phrase Jezabelle).

[Corkscrewed]

What a jezabelle of a ref. :roll: