The Batman Discussion

[BigDaddyCool]

It is my argument that Batman is made to look too good sometimes and it annoys the shit out of me. They make him way too smart, way to rich, and it just grates me. Especially in one offs and what if stories that aren't suppose to be part of the cannon.

Discuss.

[Nowhere Man]

Grant Morrison can get particularly bad about that. Especially when it turns out that Batman just happened to have a contingency plan in place for just such an occasion, no matter how ridiculous the situation is. I have to wonder when, in between running Wayne Industries during the day, doing his spoiled-billionaire-playboy thing in the evening, then running around brutalizing criminals at night, does Bruce get the time to sit around in the Batcave and draw out battle-plans for what to do if, say, he has to put down an evil Aquaman or some shit.

And really, 99% of those contingency plans should consist of 2 steps:
1) Call Superman.
2) Let him handle it.

Going on a slightly different tangent, I still maintain that Batman is a really bad starting point to get people into the rest of the DC universe, because the Bat-franchise doesn't fit with the rest of that world at all. Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, etc, all have cities and rogues' galleries that are over-the-top, have all sorts of crazy adventures that involve time-travel and alternate dimensions, and generally deal with having millions of people's lives in their hands at all times. So with these guys running around every single day, why the hell is Gotham City still such a toilet? You'd think the JLA would just be able to spend a weekend or two there and have it come out as a freaking utopia by the end of it. I mean, it's not like there are any Superman-level villains there--the worst they've got is a serial killer in a clown suit. Are they all just staying away because it's Batman's territory? The more I think about it, the less sense Batman makes in terms of the rest of DC.

[Fignuts]

Yeah, guy has enough contingency plans to rival fucking Thanos, which is ridiculous.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, I don't get how Joker is even still alive. Ok, I get it, Batman won't kill. But jeez, can't the cops just brutally beat him once he is in custody and then he dies of his injuries? I mean he kinda has it coming.

I watched JLA: Crisis on Two Earths the other day. You have Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern, all with amazing, mind blowing super powers, then who ends up saving the day? Batman because he hold a piece of extra dimensional technology for a minute, figures out how to use it competantly, manages to trick "Evil Flash" into using his power to save the universe while protecting the Flash from premature aging. I'm calling so much bullshit on that. I hate how Batman is the unstoppable mind the relies on using Superman as the ultimate contingency plan (as mentioned by others). Then the rest of the DC universe is just there to muck things up until Batman decides to tell Superman who to punch.

[Lock Jaw]

Where did Batman find the time to become The World's Greatest Detective, Scientific Genius, and Deadly Fighter?

There are other DC characters (Lex Luthor, Mr Terrific) who are supposed to be ridiculously smart as well, but they don't get all these other things heaped on them to make them unstoppable forces.

[BigDaddyCool]

Isn't Lex suppose to be the smartest inventor of all time, yet he can't invent something to kill Batman? I mean seriously, if you killed Batman, then Superman doesn't know who he should punch and Lex can do whatever he wants while just keeping Superman distracted on red herrings.

[Lock Jaw]

I dunno. Mr Terrific is supposedly "the third smartest man in the world". Obviously Lex Luthor is above him, because Lex can cure cancer (if Terrific could have done that, he probably would have). Batman, I dunno if he is above either, he is just more "street smart".

Lex, meanwhile, lets his ego and maniacal tendencies hold him back from what he could achieve if he was thinking clearly.

[Fignuts]

That's why I liked the one JLA story where his contingencies bit himn in the ass. Tower of Babel was it called?

[Swiss Ultimate]

I want a DC universe reboot. Only start it put with WW2 and build from there.

[Lock Jaw]

I don't think there ever will be another "Crisis"-like reboot. If anything they'll just try making another line of comics.

They started that with the "All-Star" line, but that turned out to not be a continuing shared alternate continuity thing. There were a few other "All-Star" series supposed to be made, but they never were.

Now they've got their "Earth-One" line going on. Not sure if they are gonna be connected or not, or if there is even going to be more after the initial ones.

[thedamndest]

How rich is too rich? Is Bruce supposed to be the richest man in the world?

[Lock Jaw]

I hate how many heroes/villains are supposed to be rich. Pretty absurd.

Spider-Man is probably the only hero you ever see who is like... consistently poor or struggling to get by.

[Fignuts]

Green Lantern also has a pretty humble life, but he doesn't exactly struggle either.

[Lock Jaw]

http://superdickery.com/images/stories/seduction/waistdown.jpg

[BigDaddyCool]

I want a DC universe reboot. Only start it put with WW2 and build from there.
Doesn't DC always reboot?
How rich is too rich? Is Bruce supposed to be the richest man in the world?
Hard too say, but if they have more technology than say Bill Gates, that is too rich.

[dronepool]

Green Lantern also has a pretty humble life, but he doesn't exactly struggle either.

Booster Gold has my vote for that "struggle". He's cool.

[Swiss Ultimate]

I'd like to see a Batman who is basically just a super-athletic dirty-styled street-fighter. He wouldn't kill but, he'd fucking gouge eyes and break legs and arms like a motherfucker. He'd be a trust-fund baby but, not a super-billionaire with all sorts of responsibilities.

[Lock Jaw]

Doesn't DC always reboot?


DC has rebooted once in 1985.

Then they had Zero Hour in 1994, which wasn't a reboot, but made slight changes to the universe.

Then they had Infinite Crisis in 2005, which again wasn't a reboot, but made slight changes.

So yeah, since 1985 they have been in the same continuity, with changes and updates made along the way. Which Marvel does as well.

[Jeritron]

I think Bruce Wayne being one of the richest and most powerful men in the world (probably the most) is one of the things that makes his character most interesting.
He is royalty, and his father was like Rockefeller or something, so them being murdered and their son being who he is has a whole new dynamic.

[Jeritron]

I also think his skillset is only ridiculous if you look at it all at face value. Over the decades it's absurd if you view it cumulatively. I think it should just be judged from story to story though.
I don't think his detective skills are anything more than an extension of his resourcefulness and intelligence, so that's more of a talent than something he took the time to accomplish, like his combat training.

[dronepool]

^ He did travel train for about 7 or 8 years.

[Funky Fly]

K, no one's ever been able to give me a definitive answer on this, BUT I WILL ASK AGAIN:

I want to get into Batman the way I got into X-Men (I've read 99.999% of all canon X-titles up to just after the Civil War).

I wanna read it all, except for the ridiculous cheese like the Brave & the Bold. Can someone explain which Batman is which as far as Earth 1, 2 Prime and all that shit is? Also, where should I start? When do the reboots (universe updates?) happen and what crossover events do I need for that and so on? Like I have read a bunch of one shots and graphic novels and miniseries, but I have no clue where to jump into the main canon.

[dronepool]

^

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=292917

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Batman_comics#Modern_Batman

^ "chronology of the storylines"

[The Destroyer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Batman_comics#Modern_Batman

Gives a good list of trades for post-Crisis Batman in what should be a sort of reading order - there's a couple of things that need inserted (like Batman and the Monster Men and Batman and the Mad Monk, which slot in after Year One).

The only DC crossover that I can think of having a "must read" impact on Batman would be Final Crisis. As you can see from the above list though, Batman is big on doing X-Men style crossovers among the "Bat Family" titles.

I've not touched pre-Crisis Batman, so I can't speak for it at all. Anything before Batman #404 and Detective Comics #575 (1987-ish) is the pre-Crisis On Infinite Earths Batman. Although Detective Comics #575 features starts a story arc that despite being post-Crisis, may no longer in continuity.

[The Destroyer]

And that's what I get for taking so long to type out a post, beaten to the punch. :y:

[Nowhere Man]

I watched JLA: Crisis on Two Earths the other day. You have Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern, all with amazing, mind blowing super powers, then who ends up saving the day? Batman because he hold a piece of extra dimensional technology for a minute, figures out how to use it competantly, manages to trick "Evil Flash" into using his power to save the universe while protecting the Flash from premature aging. I'm calling so much bullshit on that. I hate how Batman is the unstoppable mind the relies on using Superman as the ultimate contingency plan (as mentioned by others). Then the rest of the DC universe is just there to muck things up until Batman decides to tell Superman who to punch.

The one thing I did love about Crisis on Two Earths was that it gave an actually pretty cool explanation for Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet (that it's the evil universe Batman's jet, and Wonder Woman just decided to keep it as a trophy after they won)

[Fignuts]

DC has rebooted once in 1985.

Then they had Zero Hour in 1994, which wasn't a reboot, but made slight changes to the universe.

Then they had Infinite Crisis in 2005, which again wasn't a reboot, but made slight changes.

So yeah, since 1985 they have been in the same continuity, with changes and updates made along the way. Which Marvel does as well.

Uh, yeah there haven't been that many company wide reboots, but individual characters get rebooted and retconned way more than Marvel. Hawkman's continuity alone is more screwed up than every retcon marvel has ever done combined.

[BigDaddyCool]

The one thing I did love about Crisis on Two Earths was that it gave an actually pretty cool explanation for Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet (that it's the evil universe Batman's jet, and Wonder Woman just decided to keep it as a trophy after they won)

Meh, that is the one positive in a sea of horrible.

[mitchables]

That's why I liked the one JLA story where his contingencies bit himn in the ass. Tower of Babel was it called?

also the entire war drums/war games arcs.

and the omac project/brother eye.

gee, bruce's plans actually bite him in the ass a bit. the "one" jla storyline indeed, please.

[Rammsteinmad]

Haven't read through all of this thread, but I imagine others feel the same as me.

I like Batman. I have loads of comics, all the DVDs etc, and they are good (I loved War Games), but what I'm sick and tired of is how Batman is always like the ultimate hero, when he is really nothing more than a guy with shit loads of money.

Haven't actually read Batman in a while, but last I heard Bruce Wayne is dead right? Has he returned yet? If not, how will he? It'll happen sooner or later, annoyingly...

[BigDaddyCool]

Yes, that is the general gist of the thread. Batman is always the guy the figures everything out and saves the say with some giant plan. Sometimes it seems like the writers for DC are jealous of all the supers/meta humans or whatever you all the jerks with actual powers and Batman is suppose to represent the common man...who is richer than god.

[The Destroyer]

Haven't actually read Batman in a while, but last I heard Bruce Wayne is dead right? Has he returned yet? If not, how will he? It'll happen sooner or later, annoyingly...
Didn't actually die, was sent back in time, is now making his way back to the present (how I don't know, not read the Return of Bruce Wayne yet) and will be back come October/November time.

[Nowhere Man]

I'm honestly disappointed that Bruce is coming back. I was starting to really like Dick Grayson as the new Batman, since A) he wasn't a complete insufferable douchebag like Bruce, and B) well, that's pretty much the whole reason I liked him better.

[DaveBrawl]

Jean Paul Valley should still be Batman.

[dronepool]

I'm honestly disappointed that Bruce is coming back. I was starting to really like Dick Grayson as the new Batman, since A) he wasn't a complete insufferable douchebag like Bruce, and B) well, that's pretty much the whole reason I liked him better.

Going by whats being said (and the cover below)- there's probably going to be "Batmen" stationed in different cities of the world and Dick might stay as Batman as well as Bruce while they work together with people like Knight and Squire and whoever else Grant Morrioson picks .

http://i36.tinypic.com/33vovue.jpg

[Jeritron]

I think Batmen stationed in other cities is foolish anyways. It misses the entire point of Batman and Gotham, really. Gotham City IS every city, so to speak.

Gotham is the world of Batman, and I think the story should only leave the city limits for specific purposes that serve the overall tale of Batman and Gotham.

[Lock Jaw]

More of Morrison being Morrison-y.

[BigDaddyCool]

Batman is a big boring douche. There I said it.

[Jeritron]

Batman's origins are interesting. As a hero, he usually works best as a two dimensional character, and the villains and other characters provide the arc.

[BigDaddyCool]

I know all of that, he is a doucher because of it.

[McLegend]

Batman has to be great at everything otherwise he would die in a second.

[McLegend]

Anyway I have always loved the characters that are all powerful/know everything. They are always most interesting to me.

[Jeritron]

Batman is only that powerful if you look at the sum total of everything he's done in his stories.
If you read one Batman story on it's own, or watch a Batman movie, he's not that ridiculous.

[BigDaddyCool]

Nothing batman does is cannon. Outside of his origins, nothing ever overlaps so he can constantly be reinvented. Duh.

[Jeritron]

I don't see anything in a movie like The Dark Knight, or a book like The Long Halloween, that makes him that overpowered or ridiculous

[Jeritron]

http://www.funnypaperz.com/batman-the_dark_knight_falls4.jpg

Also, he's the man for this. Superman really is overpowered. At least Batman works for it.

[Skippord]

why wouldn't Batman be the richest smartest man in the world?

[Jeritron]

He's the richest man in the world because of his dad. But his dad was the richest man in the world because he was brilliant. Perhaps his son inherited that intelligence genetically?
It's not like he had an easy upbringing and childhood that would make him into a waste.

He also kicked ass and became a ninja across the world without a dime in his pocket, so he clearly became who he is without his resources.
They just aid him as a hero in Gotham. He would be foolish not to use what he has at his disposal.

[BigDaddyCool]

I bet Ironman would beat up Batman without even breaking a sweat and then buy out Bruce Wayne before his martin is finished being made.

[Skippord]

Iron Man is a punk bitch compared to Batman

[Lock Jaw]

http://i.newsarama.com/images/bnr16_solicit.jpg

[mitchables]

is that supposed to be bruce behind dick and damian? or two pictures of dick?

because quitely should probably have checked with the other artists on bruce's costume if that's meant to be him.

[mitchables]

actually in hindsight that's definitely bruce, look at that fucking jaw compared to grayson's.

what gives quitely?

[dronepool]

And Batman has 3 spikes on his gloves, Dick has 2.

[mitchables]

And Batman has 3 spikes on his gloves, Dick has 2.

i did know that. i just didn't twig.

but yeah, okay, so it's bruce in his old costume. nice move, frank.

also, where the fuck are grayson's legs? quitely going all rob liefeld on us here.

[Lock Jaw]

Maybe that issue takes place before Bruce gets his new costume.

Or Quitely could just be off. Haven't really liked his art in Batman & Robin.

[D Mac]

Is Batman a better detective then Sherlock Holmes?

[Lock Jaw]

Is Detective Chimp a better detective then Sherlock Holmes?

[D Mac]

who

[Lock Jaw]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/8015/191942-140345-detective-chimp.jpg

[dronepool]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2010/08/bminc.jpg



Detective, Batman and Batman And Robin will star Dick and Damian, while Batman Inc. and Batman: Dark Knight will star Bruce.

It's all up at The Source (http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2010/08/30/another-surprise-revelation-hitting-batman-in-november/) as usual, with a link to an article in the NY Post (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/now_two_batmen_IG5ihXRuzh7UkCd2J5T5OL)

[Lock Jaw]

Five batman books are pretty ridiculous. Not to mention Batman: Streets of Gotham. Unless they are ending that one.

[dronepool]

Streets might be canceled soon, sales are slipping fast.

And there's actually more than 5 (almost triple that) if you count all of the related batbooks and mini's but it just technically sucks for a completest.

I'm just getting Red Robin, Batman, Batman & Robin and Batman Inc for now. Gonna check out Dark Knight though.