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Old 08-18-2010, 04:40 PM   #1
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The Batman Discussion
It is my argument that Batman is made to look too good sometimes and it annoys the shit out of me. They make him way too smart, way to rich, and it just grates me. Especially in one offs and what if stories that aren't suppose to be part of the cannon.

Discuss.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:22 PM   #2
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Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Nowhere Man got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Grant Morrison can get particularly bad about that. Especially when it turns out that Batman just happened to have a contingency plan in place for just such an occasion, no matter how ridiculous the situation is. I have to wonder when, in between running Wayne Industries during the day, doing his spoiled-billionaire-playboy thing in the evening, then running around brutalizing criminals at night, does Bruce get the time to sit around in the Batcave and draw out battle-plans for what to do if, say, he has to put down an evil Aquaman or some shit.

And really, 99% of those contingency plans should consist of 2 steps:
1) Call Superman.
2) Let him handle it.

Going on a slightly different tangent, I still maintain that Batman is a really bad starting point to get people into the rest of the DC universe, because the Bat-franchise doesn't fit with the rest of that world at all. Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, etc, all have cities and rogues' galleries that are over-the-top, have all sorts of crazy adventures that involve time-travel and alternate dimensions, and generally deal with having millions of people's lives in their hands at all times. So with these guys running around every single day, why the hell is Gotham City still such a toilet? You'd think the JLA would just be able to spend a weekend or two there and have it come out as a freaking utopia by the end of it. I mean, it's not like there are any Superman-level villains there--the worst they've got is a serial killer in a clown suit. Are they all just staying away because it's Batman's territory? The more I think about it, the less sense Batman makes in terms of the rest of DC.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:26 PM   #3
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Yeah, guy has enough contingency plans to rival fucking Thanos, which is ridiculous.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:50 PM   #4
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Also, I don't get how Joker is even still alive. Ok, I get it, Batman won't kill. But jeez, can't the cops just brutally beat him once he is in custody and then he dies of his injuries? I mean he kinda has it coming.

I watched JLA: Crisis on Two Earths the other day. You have Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern, all with amazing, mind blowing super powers, then who ends up saving the day? Batman because he hold a piece of extra dimensional technology for a minute, figures out how to use it competantly, manages to trick "Evil Flash" into using his power to save the universe while protecting the Flash from premature aging. I'm calling so much bullshit on that. I hate how Batman is the unstoppable mind the relies on using Superman as the ultimate contingency plan (as mentioned by others). Then the rest of the DC universe is just there to muck things up until Batman decides to tell Superman who to punch.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:56 PM   #5
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Where did Batman find the time to become The World's Greatest Detective, Scientific Genius, and Deadly Fighter?

There are other DC characters (Lex Luthor, Mr Terrific) who are supposed to be ridiculously smart as well, but they don't get all these other things heaped on them to make them unstoppable forces.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:59 PM   #6
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Isn't Lex suppose to be the smartest inventor of all time, yet he can't invent something to kill Batman? I mean seriously, if you killed Batman, then Superman doesn't know who he should punch and Lex can do whatever he wants while just keeping Superman distracted on red herrings.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:44 PM   #7
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I dunno. Mr Terrific is supposedly "the third smartest man in the world". Obviously Lex Luthor is above him, because Lex can cure cancer (if Terrific could have done that, he probably would have). Batman, I dunno if he is above either, he is just more "street smart".

Lex, meanwhile, lets his ego and maniacal tendencies hold him back from what he could achieve if he was thinking clearly.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:55 PM   #8
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That's why I liked the one JLA story where his contingencies bit himn in the ass. Tower of Babel was it called?
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:07 PM   #9
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I want a DC universe reboot. Only start it put with WW2 and build from there.
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:26 PM   #10
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I don't think there ever will be another "Crisis"-like reboot. If anything they'll just try making another line of comics.

They started that with the "All-Star" line, but that turned out to not be a continuing shared alternate continuity thing. There were a few other "All-Star" series supposed to be made, but they never were.

Now they've got their "Earth-One" line going on. Not sure if they are gonna be connected or not, or if there is even going to be more after the initial ones.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:32 PM   #11
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How rich is too rich? Is Bruce supposed to be the richest man in the world?
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:44 PM   #12
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I hate how many heroes/villains are supposed to be rich. Pretty absurd.

Spider-Man is probably the only hero you ever see who is like... consistently poor or struggling to get by.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:05 PM   #13
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Green Lantern also has a pretty humble life, but he doesn't exactly struggle either.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:11 PM   #14
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:31 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathtotheSwiss View Post
I want a DC universe reboot. Only start it put with WW2 and build from there.
Doesn't DC always reboot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedamndest View Post
How rich is too rich? Is Bruce supposed to be the richest man in the world?
Hard too say, but if they have more technology than say Bill Gates, that is too rich.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:33 AM   #16
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Green Lantern also has a pretty humble life, but he doesn't exactly struggle either.
Booster Gold has my vote for that "struggle". He's cool.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:47 AM   #17
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I'd like to see a Batman who is basically just a super-athletic dirty-styled street-fighter. He wouldn't kill but, he'd fucking gouge eyes and break legs and arms like a motherfucker. He'd be a trust-fund baby but, not a super-billionaire with all sorts of responsibilities.
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Doesn't DC always reboot?
DC has rebooted once in 1985.

Then they had Zero Hour in 1994, which wasn't a reboot, but made slight changes to the universe.

Then they had Infinite Crisis in 2005, which again wasn't a reboot, but made slight changes.

So yeah, since 1985 they have been in the same continuity, with changes and updates made along the way. Which Marvel does as well.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:09 AM   #19
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I think Bruce Wayne being one of the richest and most powerful men in the world (probably the most) is one of the things that makes his character most interesting.
He is royalty, and his father was like Rockefeller or something, so them being murdered and their son being who he is has a whole new dynamic.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:12 AM   #20
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I also think his skillset is only ridiculous if you look at it all at face value. Over the decades it's absurd if you view it cumulatively. I think it should just be judged from story to story though.
I don't think his detective skills are anything more than an extension of his resourcefulness and intelligence, so that's more of a talent than something he took the time to accomplish, like his combat training.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:24 AM   #21
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^ He did travel train for about 7 or 8 years.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:29 AM   #22
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K, no one's ever been able to give me a definitive answer on this, BUT I WILL ASK AGAIN:

I want to get into Batman the way I got into X-Men (I've read 99.999% of all canon X-titles up to just after the Civil War).

I wanna read it all, except for the ridiculous cheese like the Brave & the Bold. Can someone explain which Batman is which as far as Earth 1, 2 Prime and all that shit is? Also, where should I start? When do the reboots (universe updates?) happen and what crossover events do I need for that and so on? Like I have read a bunch of one shots and graphic novels and miniseries, but I have no clue where to jump into the main canon.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:58 AM   #23
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^

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...d.php?t=292917

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...#Modern_Batman

^ "chronology of the storylines"
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:06 AM   #24
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...#Modern_Batman

Gives a good list of trades for post-Crisis Batman in what should be a sort of reading order - there's a couple of things that need inserted (like Batman and the Monster Men and Batman and the Mad Monk, which slot in after Year One).

The only DC crossover that I can think of having a "must read" impact on Batman would be Final Crisis. As you can see from the above list though, Batman is big on doing X-Men style crossovers among the "Bat Family" titles.

I've not touched pre-Crisis Batman, so I can't speak for it at all. Anything before Batman #404 and Detective Comics #575 (1987-ish) is the pre-Crisis On Infinite Earths Batman. Although Detective Comics #575 features starts a story arc that despite being post-Crisis, may no longer in continuity.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:16 AM   #25
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And that's what I get for taking so long to type out a post, beaten to the punch.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
I watched JLA: Crisis on Two Earths the other day. You have Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern, all with amazing, mind blowing super powers, then who ends up saving the day? Batman because he hold a piece of extra dimensional technology for a minute, figures out how to use it competantly, manages to trick "Evil Flash" into using his power to save the universe while protecting the Flash from premature aging. I'm calling so much bullshit on that. I hate how Batman is the unstoppable mind the relies on using Superman as the ultimate contingency plan (as mentioned by others). Then the rest of the DC universe is just there to muck things up until Batman decides to tell Superman who to punch.
The one thing I did love about Crisis on Two Earths was that it gave an actually pretty cool explanation for Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet (that it's the evil universe Batman's jet, and Wonder Woman just decided to keep it as a trophy after they won)
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Old 08-19-2010, 08:56 AM   #27
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DC has rebooted once in 1985.

Then they had Zero Hour in 1994, which wasn't a reboot, but made slight changes to the universe.

Then they had Infinite Crisis in 2005, which again wasn't a reboot, but made slight changes.

So yeah, since 1985 they have been in the same continuity, with changes and updates made along the way. Which Marvel does as well.
Uh, yeah there haven't been that many company wide reboots, but individual characters get rebooted and retconned way more than Marvel. Hawkman's continuity alone is more screwed up than every retcon marvel has ever done combined.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:51 AM   #28
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The one thing I did love about Crisis on Two Earths was that it gave an actually pretty cool explanation for Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet (that it's the evil universe Batman's jet, and Wonder Woman just decided to keep it as a trophy after they won)
Meh, that is the one positive in a sea of horrible.
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Old 08-20-2010, 12:55 AM   #29
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That's why I liked the one JLA story where his contingencies bit himn in the ass. Tower of Babel was it called?
also the entire war drums/war games arcs.

and the omac project/brother eye.

gee, bruce's plans actually bite him in the ass a bit. the "one" jla storyline indeed, please.
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Old 08-20-2010, 11:44 AM   #30
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Haven't read through all of this thread, but I imagine others feel the same as me.

I like Batman. I have loads of comics, all the DVDs etc, and they are good (I loved War Games), but what I'm sick and tired of is how Batman is always like the ultimate hero, when he is really nothing more than a guy with shit loads of money.

Haven't actually read Batman in a while, but last I heard Bruce Wayne is dead right? Has he returned yet? If not, how will he? It'll happen sooner or later, annoyingly...
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Old 08-20-2010, 12:01 PM   #31
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Yes, that is the general gist of the thread. Batman is always the guy the figures everything out and saves the say with some giant plan. Sometimes it seems like the writers for DC are jealous of all the supers/meta humans or whatever you all the jerks with actual powers and Batman is suppose to represent the common man...who is richer than god.
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Old 08-20-2010, 01:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Haven't actually read Batman in a while, but last I heard Bruce Wayne is dead right? Has he returned yet? If not, how will he? It'll happen sooner or later, annoyingly...
Didn't actually die, was sent back in time, is now making his way back to the present (how I don't know, not read the Return of Bruce Wayne yet) and will be back come October/November time.
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Old 08-20-2010, 03:46 PM   #33
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I'm honestly disappointed that Bruce is coming back. I was starting to really like Dick Grayson as the new Batman, since A) he wasn't a complete insufferable douchebag like Bruce, and B) well, that's pretty much the whole reason I liked him better.
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Old 08-20-2010, 04:18 PM   #34
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Jean Paul Valley should still be Batman.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:45 AM   #35
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Quote:
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I'm honestly disappointed that Bruce is coming back. I was starting to really like Dick Grayson as the new Batman, since A) he wasn't a complete insufferable douchebag like Bruce, and B) well, that's pretty much the whole reason I liked him better.
Going by whats being said (and the cover below)- there's probably going to be "Batmen" stationed in different cities of the world and Dick might stay as Batman as well as Bruce while they work together with people like Knight and Squire and whoever else Grant Morrioson picks .

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Old 08-23-2010, 12:48 AM   #36
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I think Batmen stationed in other cities is foolish anyways. It misses the entire point of Batman and Gotham, really. Gotham City IS every city, so to speak.

Gotham is the world of Batman, and I think the story should only leave the city limits for specific purposes that serve the overall tale of Batman and Gotham.
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:20 AM   #37
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More of Morrison being Morrison-y.
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Old 08-30-2010, 03:07 PM   #38
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Batman is a big boring douche. There I said it.
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Old 08-30-2010, 03:09 PM   #39
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Batman's origins are interesting. As a hero, he usually works best as a two dimensional character, and the villains and other characters provide the arc.
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Old 08-30-2010, 03:19 PM   #40
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I know all of that, he is a doucher because of it.
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