View Full Version : Why Does Hogan Get Credit for Anything?
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 12:19 PM
Just read a thread where it was said that Hogan revolutionized the business.
Really? Pretty sure that Hogan's popularity was equal parts "charisma" and "Vince McMahon".
Feel like the guy was always just a lucky, albeit talented, jerk. What exactly did Hogan "revolutionize"? Cheesy promos? Formulaic matches? Baldness?
If anything guys who were a lot less popular and famous actually deserve the credit for major changes to pro wrestling. Brian Pillman, Ric Flair and Mick Foley's promos have been a major influence on the current generation of wrestlers. Flair's style of wrestling has sure as hell influenced the current generation of technical wrestlers.
So why give Hogan credit for anything aside from bringing in shitloads of fans with the help of McMahon and then Bischoff?
Londoner
03-13-2011, 12:31 PM
Have always questioned this to tbh, but i'm no expert on the matter. He was just in the right place, at the right time sort of thing.
Jeritron
03-13-2011, 12:38 PM
I think there are tons of fans who believe/recognize that Vince revolutionized wrestling, and that Hogan was just there.
But at the same time I think it just gets said because it was the "Hogan Era" that marked the change and what not.
Hogan deserves credit for his own abilities and that's about it. He certainly had the charisma, and "it" to make Vince's revolution work, but I don't think he's the only man who could have done it, and I don't think he himself is really an architect of anything.
Obviously, Hogan and some disciples believe otherwise.It doesn't really make a difference anymore.
Jeritron
03-13-2011, 12:45 PM
Hogan also probably "deserves credit" for managing to stay so relevant for so long. This was all piggybacked off the initial surge and iconic status granted by the original Hulkamania, but he stuck around.
It's obvious that Vince had the foresight to keep making new Hogans, and make the cogs interchangable in his machine. Hogan did a lot to stay #1 during those years.
He pretty much outlasted Savage, Warrior, and held onto the throne. A more passive individual probably would have passed the torch.
And when he left WWF, he certainly did business to his benefit. He pretty much knew when to come and go, and who to surround himself with. He clung to The Outsiders, and he did business for a guy like Goldberg when the time was right.
He wanted Eric Bischoff to beat Vince just as much as Eric Bischoff did, because he'd moved onto a new host.
#BROKEN Hasney
03-13-2011, 12:46 PM
Pillman, Flair and Foley could only do their thing because their respective bookers let them and promoted them as such, so why give them any credit?
Fignuts
03-13-2011, 12:47 PM
Was more than right place, right time. Hogan is a pretty skilled businessman himself, and came up with quite a few of the ideas that fueled Hulkamania. It really was a combination of Vince and Hogan.
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 01:29 PM
Pillman, Flair and Foley could only do their thing because their respective bookers let them and promoted them as such, so why give them any credit?
Not saying that the bookers don't deserve credit. What I'm saying is that they had much more control of their characters and influenced change.
Hogan didn't influence change in any way that I can see and only had control of his character after he was already ridiculously powerful. Hell, all the cool things he did as Hollywood Hogan were ripped off from Jesse Ventura and Ric Flair. I feel like it's the difference between an actor playing a part in a great movie and the writer and director of that great movie.
With Flair, Pillman and Foley they at the very least get a co-writer/co-director nod.
jskinnyg
03-13-2011, 01:30 PM
Have always questioned this to tbh, but i'm no expert on the matter. He was just in the right place, at the right time sort of thing.
Yup...
Jeritron
03-13-2011, 01:36 PM
Not saying that the bookers don't deserve credit. What I'm saying is that they had much more control of their characters and influenced change.
Hogan didn't influence change in any way that I can see and only had control of his character after he was already ridiculously powerful. Hell, all the cool things he did as Hollywood Hogan were ripped off from Jesse Ventura and Ric Flair. I feel like it's the difference between an actor playing a part in a great movie and the writer and director of that great movie.
With Flair, Pillman and Foley they at the very least get a co-writer/co-director nod.
According to Ventura and others, he could have used his enourmous stroke to actually get a wrestlers labor union formed.
That would have been influence and change. It would have likely saved and improved the lives of thousands of workers.
Hogan reportedly didn't want to get behind it because it just didn't benefit him, and with his stature he didn't need it.
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 01:42 PM
According to Ventura and others, he could have used his enourmous stroke to actually get a wrestlers labor union formed.
That would have been influence and change. It would have likely saved and improved the lives of thousands of workers.
Hogan reportedly didn't want to get behind it because it just didn't benefit him, and with his stature he didn't need it.
Sadly the Union is the closest the WWE will ever get to unionizing.
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Jeritron
03-13-2011, 01:46 PM
I'll take it.
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 01:55 PM
WWE Superstars who stay with the company for 8+ years or retire in the company should at least get some health care coverage if not a moderate sized pension.
Jeritron
03-13-2011, 01:56 PM
"Independent contractors."
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 02:06 PM
Wait, I forgot about steroids. Hogan was really great at distributing steroids.
WWE Superstars who stay with the company for 8+ years or retire in the company should at least get some health care coverage if not a moderate sized pension.
Instead they get free rehab.
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 03:07 PM
Lotta good it did Jake the Snake.
JimmyMess
03-13-2011, 03:15 PM
No Hulk Hogan. No wrestling boom. Period.
/Thread
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 03:16 PM
Disagree. Vince very well could have done the Hulk gimmick with a few other people. Macho Man for instance could have carried the whole company as the ultimate baby-face.
JimmyMess
03-13-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't know. Macho ain't 6'7 or whatever Hogan was when he was healthy.
Plus Hogan is a phenomenon. Stallone picked him out of hundreds of wrestlers for Rocky before he was red and yellow. There was just "something" about him.
Snowden
03-13-2011, 03:44 PM
Hogan himself is probably one of the 3 most mass appealing, charismatic wrestlers that has ever come along. Sure, booking plays a role, but Hogan absolutely killed it as the top babyface during his WWF run, and completely changed the dynamics of the Monday night wars during his WCW run.
I think people who claim he was simply in the right place at the right time are blinded by the many negatives Hogan has shown. Fact of the matter is, Hogan was, and to the mainstream world, still is, wrestling. Macho Man, Warrior...they never were Hogan, and couldn't carry the torch (and a company) like he did. Among wrestlers, only Austin and Rock are near him as far as such widespread appeal.
Ruien
03-13-2011, 04:10 PM
The fact is Hogan WAS the man, even if there were others with potential. He was chosen and he made it work. He was fed cheesier things than John Cena is getting and was able to become one of the most popular people on the planet. Hulk Hogan is someone that you tell your kids about and grand kids.
Maybe he was just the right guy in the right place, but he was the guy none the less.
Saying Hogan was 'just in the right place at the right time' is absurd.....
By that reasoning, nobody has ever done anything good, ever, because they were just 'in the right place', or 'just got lucky'
You are discounting what a massive draw he was for the WWF, without him it could be argued that nobody would give a shit about wrestling, it'd be boring ass guys like Sammartino as the standard to aspire to, not charismatic guys like Savage/Rock/Hogan etc.
Hell, all the cool things he did as Hollywood Hogan were ripped off from Jesse Ventura and Ric Flair.
what, because he wore feather boas?
Wait, I forgot about steroids. Hogan was really great at distributing steroids.
what
Macho Man for instance could have carried the whole company as the ultimate baby-face.
lol no
When I saw this thread and clicked on it from the main page, I thought it was titled 'Does Hogan get credit for anything?' and that it was going to be a pleasantly surprising thread in relation to lots of people on the internet/TPWW crying about him and making him out to be the anti-christ. Apparently not.
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 04:51 PM
I have credited Hogan's charisma and ability already. I've also agreed about his mass appeal bringing in millions and millions of dollars. That said, he became the face of wrestling which isn't the same as revolutionizing the industry.
Would argue that Macho Man was almost as popular as Hogan and played a heel for a lot of his career....OOOOOH YEEEEEEEAAAAAAH!
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 04:54 PM
what, because he wore feather boas?
Because he admitted that Jesse Ventura was his biggest influence for Hollywood Hogan.
When I saw this thread and clicked on it from the main page, I thought it was titled 'Does Hogan get credit for anything?' and that it was going to be a pleasantly surprising thread in relation to lots of people on the internet/TPWW crying about him and making him out to be the anti-christ. Apparently not.
Hogan is not the anti-Christ. He is, still, arguably the most iconic figure in professional wrestling. Doesn't excuse his bad behavior or current role of crappy boring old guy.
Testicle
03-13-2011, 04:59 PM
Don't make me agree with CSL! :mad:
Hogan is heavily responsible for the success of pro-wrestling since the early eighties. He, along with others, brought wrestling from small towns and arenas to staduims, worldwide tv, movie screens, cartoons, ect... He brought wrestling to the main-stream (as main-stream as wrestling can be) and made the business more profitable than it had ever been before him.
Testicle
03-13-2011, 05:01 PM
You are discounting what a massive draw he was for the WWF, without him it could be argued that nobody would give a shit about wrestling, it'd be boring ass guys like Sammartino as the standard to aspire to, not charismatic guys like Savage/Rock/Hogan etc.
Bang.
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 05:02 PM
Don't make me agree with CSL! :mad:
Hogan is heavily responsible for the success of pro-wrestling since the early eighties. He, along with others, brought wrestling from small towns and arenas to staduims, worldwide tv, movie screens, cartoons, ect... He brought wrestling to the main-stream (as main-stream as wrestling can be) and made the business more profitable than it had ever been before him.
Vincent K McMahon...without him, Hogan would be a regional success.
dronepool
03-13-2011, 05:05 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/5wbc6v.jpg
Testicle
03-13-2011, 05:06 PM
Hogan was very over in the AWA and Japan before he came to the WWF and he would have achieved great success whether McMahon was involved or not.
Did McMahon have a large part in the success of the Hogan character? Of course. But to discredit Hogan is wrong. Should we discredit Steve Austin? He was just Stunning Steve before he worked for McMahon?
So anything or body that has ever been influenced by something or body else is a ripoff now?
And who gives a fuck about his apparent 'bad behaviour'? Did he hold you down? Did he stop you from earning money? Do you even watch TNA? This ridiculous notion of holding things against certain guys, the Jeff Hardys, the Hogans, the holding apparent truths that some idiot wrote on a website against a performer is pretty stupid. But you're hardly the first to do it. You should judge Hulk Hogan on whatever he did or does on screen, you are a wrestling fan, nothing else. If you don't like Hogan the performer, fair enough, just say that. But don't support it with a bunch of ridiculous comments based on what may or not be true just because some bell-ends on the internet act like it's common and factual knowledge.
Emperor Smeat
03-13-2011, 05:21 PM
The same could almost be said of Austin with The Rock or Cena due to those wrestlers becoming the next big wrestlers for the WWF/WWE after Hogan left.
There were plenty of other wrestlers who were more talented at the time but the crowd decided to love and follow those 3 wrestlers the most. Cena might have been forced more by the WWE to the crowd but his pre-SuperCena rise had the crowd loving him.
Had the AWA kept and pushed Hogan instead of letting him leave to the WWF, Hogan probably doesn't become as huge as he became in the WWF. Unlike Cena, Hogan knew how to sell a match well enough that his routine "Hulking Up" didn't become boring and his promo ability was great regardless of being a face or heel.
Seth82
03-13-2011, 06:01 PM
Hogan is definitely a smart businessman but to say he revolutionized the entire industry is just stupid
People claim that there would be no business if Hogan wasn't the top guy and I find that laughable
Ric Flair and The 4 Horsemen were just as revolutionary in the 80's and made you want to watch NWA Wrestling to see what the hell was gonna happen
I have heard before that Vince wanted to use Kerry Von Erich as the face of the company in 1984 before he got Hogan
I think that woulda been interesting to see had it actually happened
Kerry was a huge name at the time
Nicky Fives
03-13-2011, 06:20 PM
As much as I dislike Hogan, without him TPWW would not exist.....
Hogan was a special character with a lot of charisma who knew how to play the game. I do believe he could have been replaced by the right person during the Hulkamania era, but they may not have had the wrestling lifespan as Hogan has had in the spotlight. Hogan knew how to manipulate those in charge to believe he was worth more than he really was. Don't get me wrong, with Hulkamania rolling he was worth A LOT, but he sold himself to Vince and more so Bischoff WAY more than he was worth.
I do stand by my opinion that Lauper, Mr. T and Piper were the reasons WrestleMania was a success, and Hogan was only a small part of it. Probably fourth behind McMahon himself.
Lara Emily
03-13-2011, 07:14 PM
I agree with Xero
Emperor Smeat
03-13-2011, 07:21 PM
Hogan was a special character with a lot of charisma who knew how to play the game. I do believe he could have been replaced by the right person during the Hulkamania era, but they may not have had the wrestling lifespan as Hogan has had in the spotlight. Hogan knew how to manipulate those in charge to believe he was worth more than he really was. Don't get me wrong, with Hulkamania rolling he was worth A LOT, but he sold himself to Vince and more so Bischoff WAY more than he was worth.
I do stand by my opinion that Lauper, Mr. T and Piper were the reasons WrestleMania was a success, and Hogan was only a small part of it. Probably fourth behind McMahon himself.
I agree with Hogan not being the big name or factor for why Wrestlemania I succeeded but once Wrestlemania III past, he was huge in terms of mainstream appeal for the WWF. All the hype and buildup of WM III was for the Hogan-Andre match and the iconic bodyslam that occurred in the match.
#BROKEN Hasney
03-13-2011, 07:37 PM
It's a dumb debate anyway. If Hogan wasn't there, then WWF might have gone under, HOWEVER, it might be bigger than it is now. It may even have set off World War 3 with less people inthe world glued to WWF TV and nuking New Zeland.
Unfortunately (for those that care anyway), you haven't invented some crazy fucking machine that can alter things and show the outcome, you will never know.
Hogan was a special character with a lot of charisma who knew how to play the game. I do believe he could have been replaced by the right person during the Hulkamania era, but they may not have had the wrestling lifespan as Hogan has had in the spotlight. Hogan knew how to manipulate those in charge to believe he was worth more than he really was. Don't get me wrong, with Hulkamania rolling he was worth A LOT, but he sold himself to Vince and more so Bischoff WAY more than he was worth.
I do stand by my opinion that Lauper, Mr. T and Piper were the reasons WrestleMania was a success, and Hogan was only a small part of it. Probably fourth behind McMahon himself.
WCW and Bischoff maybe (and I dispute 'worth more', he was just very smart when it came to positioning himself to maximize his apparent value), WWF no way. You think Vince is the kind of guy that can be worked by one of the boys to get himself ahead given his 'track record'? You think Hogan wanted to spend a month on the road at a time, working 2 shows in the same night taking a helicopter after his first match in order to make it to the next building in time for the main? Do those sound like the efforts of a guy that is selling himself as being worth more than he is or does it sound like a booker knowing how much he's worth and essentially 'milking' it for all he can? Hogan worked harder than any other performing talent in the history of pro wrestling outside of maybe (and it's a big maybe) the guys holding the NWA title at its peak. As for WrestleMania, come on. You think if they'd taken Hogan's name off of that bill that Mr. T, Cindi Lauper and Roddy Piper would have amounted to the same amount of buyrates and continuing success? Do you think it's a coincidence that the terms Hulkamania and WrestleMania are so similar and Hulkamania was coined a whole year beforehand?
First off, I was talking about Hogans later WWE run in terms of Vince. Didn't mean his original run. Meant to clarify that.
And I'm not saying that Hogan had nothing to do with WrestleMania, but in terms of level of importance, he's not number one or number two. Anyone (with a shit load of charisma) who was in Hogan's position (superman push), going after Piper and siding with Mr. T would have drawn similarly.
I'm not saying there WAS someone who could have taken Hogan's spot back then. There may have been and there may not have been (it was going to happen with someone, no doubt) but without the uber heel in Piper I doubt Hogan could have drawn nearly as well with someone else. And without Lauper and Mr. T, WrestleMania doesn't happen. It's that simple.
I'm going a little off topic here, but that's the difference between someone like Piper and Hogan. Hogan was a cookie cutter good guy with a rocket strapped to his ass. Piper was out of the ordinary. He carried himself differently and was on a completely different level than A LOT of people. Hogan was replaceable with the right person. Piper was not.
Seth82
03-13-2011, 07:58 PM
Yeah CSL...
Alot of NWA World Champions worked helluva lot harder then the Hulkster
and there's no maybe about it
They traveled all over the world defending the belt and that's something Hulk never did
Lou Thesz was 10 times better as a worker then Hogan ever was
Jeritron
03-13-2011, 08:01 PM
The original question wasn't whether or not Hogan worked hard or got milked by Vince. It wasn't even whether or not he was talented.
It was whether or not, in theory, some other cartoonish lightning storm of charisma could have existed in that role.
I think that's certainly open for discussion, at the very least.
#BROKEN Hasney
03-13-2011, 08:03 PM
Yeah CSL...
Alot of NWA World Champions worked helluva lot harder then the Hulkster
and there's no maybe about it
They traveled all over the world defending the belt and that's something Hulk never did
Lou Thesz was 10 times better as a worker then Hogan ever was
Great, but we're not taking work rate here, otherwise one could feasibly say that Steve Lombardi could have been in Hogans position and drew that much.
Seth82
03-13-2011, 08:08 PM
anyways back to the original topic
I've heard that Vince wanted Kerry Von Erich as the top guy
but obviously Kerry stayed with his father's promotion and Vince got Hogan
what do you guys think about that choice?
Kerry was a huge star at that point
Swiss Ultimate
03-13-2011, 08:09 PM
So anything or body that has ever been influenced by something or body else is a ripoff now? Not saying that at all. Austin was influenced by the movie Natural Born Killers, Foley by Cape Fear and so on and so on. Their choices, however, have had greater influence on wrestlers and the way wrestling has been portrayed on television. Again, I dislike Hogan for his character, I have always disliked Hogan even a small child. I have no problem admitting that he was the quintessential main-eventer of the 80s and 90s. But, giving him credit for a gimmick that Vince McMahon was going to give to somebody, regardless of whether or not Hogan existed seems a bit much.
Who is to say that Savage, given that very gimmick wouldn't have done as well, slightly less well or better than Hogan???
And who gives a fuck about his apparent 'bad behaviour'? I do.
Did he hold you down? Did he stop you from earning money? No.
Do you even watch TNA? I used to watch TNA. Also used to think TNA was great in 2008. Last time I tried was a few months ago.
This ridiculous notion of holding things against certain guys, the Jeff Hardys, the Hogans, the holding apparent truths that some idiot wrote on a website against a performer is pretty stupid. But you're hardly the first to do it. Well, to be fair, most of the things I don't like him for are things he freely admits. Some I choose to believe based on the wrestler that accuses him, which I guess comes down to me personally finding their accusations believable. Some stuff can't be denied...his bullshit sand-bagging on UT's chokeslam on his return to the WWE seems pretty straight-forward.
You should judge Hulk Hogan on whatever he did or does on screen, you are a wrestling fan, nothing else. I am more than a wrestling fan.
If you don't like Hogan the performer, fair enough, just say that. But don't support it with a bunch of ridiculous comments based on what may or not be true just because some bell-ends on the internet act like it's common and factual knowledge.
That is fair. However, the steroid scandal was more than just some "internet rumor"...Hell, there weren't websites around when that happened. I don't like Hogan the performer though he was once an adequate wrestler had an impressive physique and made millions of fans happy all around the world.
However, disliking someone because of their real life actions is a legitimate reason to dislike someone. I can no longer watch Chris Benoit matches without cringing, Jake the Snake smells like vomit and horror, Ric Flair wrestling these days makes me deeply sad and I'm pretty much disgusted by the idea of Jeff Hardy capturing the TNA World Title while being pretty much an admitted drug dealer.
My answers in red.
#BROKEN Hasney
03-13-2011, 08:11 PM
Drugs are bad, fair enough... But then who replaces Hogan in the 80's steroid-crazy times?
First off, I was talking about Hogans later WWE run in terms of Vince. Didn't mean his original run. Meant to clarify that.
And I'm not saying that Hogan had nothing to do with WrestleMania, but in terms of level of importance, he's not number one or number two. Anyone (with a shit load of charisma) who was in Hogan's position (superman push), going after Piper and siding with Mr. T would have drawn similarly.
I'm not saying there WAS someone who could have taken Hogan's spot back then. There may have been and there may not have been (it was going to happen with someone, no doubt) but without the uber heel in Piper I doubt Hogan could have drawn nearly as well with someone else. And without Lauper and Mr. T, WrestleMania doesn't happen. It's that simple.
I'm going a little off topic here, but that's the difference between someone like Piper and Hogan. Hogan was a cookie cutter good guy with a rocket strapped to his ass. Piper was out of the ordinary. He carried himself differently and was on a completely different level than A LOT of people. Hogan was replaceable with the right person. Piper was not.
Of course Piper was replaceable. Whoever replaced him may not have been as good but it wouldn't have mattered because he'd have been against Hogan and that's what mattered, that's what people paid to see. He was the guy in the A-Team, in films, on chat shows, the guy with the exposure standing alongside Mr. T, as well as getting it done on the road. The most important thing to being a success in wrestling is getting over. It's the key to everything. If you aren't over, you don't make money for you or your company. And Hogan did that better than anybody in the history of the business. That's what made him irreplaceable, the connection with the people. If Piper had been 'the guy', 'the real star', I doubt Vince would have hesitated to turn him blue-eye and have him as his flagship guy. You seem to be going by the Noid Fantasy Booking Rule that is you can get anybody over if you just simply give them a push. You're looking at this completely from a smart mark 'workrate' and 'edgy gimmicks' point of view when the object of the business is to make money. Which Hogan did better than anybody.
Yeah CSL...
Alot of NWA World Champions worked helluva lot harder then the Hulkster
and there's no maybe about it
They traveled all over the world defending the belt and that's something Hulk never did
Lou Thesz was 10 times better as a worker then Hogan ever was
I knew somebody like you would pop up. A plane ride overseas isn't much different to a plane ride from LA to NYC. Only the NWA champion didn't have a million press appearances to make in between. So please feel free to step down from this 'NWA champions were better because Flair talked about working 365 days a year' gimmick that so many are fond of. And I said 'maybe'. I don't know for a fact and neither do you. End of.
And please, Lou Thesz was twice as tough as Hogan maybe, could tie Hogan in knots in a legit contest. But his matches were boring. Ditto Harley for the most part, ditto Jack Brisco and so on and so on, when the business was still kayfabed to shit and actual newspapers would run stories on wrestling like it was all a shoot. Hogan was an entirely different time, a different style and a different product, there is no comparison to be made.
thedamndest
03-13-2011, 08:20 PM
Hogan gets credit because he was the one who put people in seats. An idea isn't anything. You can play the what if game all day but it's irrelevant how well someone else would have done because Hogan did do it.
Seth82
03-13-2011, 08:20 PM
And please, Lou Thesz was twice as tough as Hogan maybe, could tie Hogan in knots in a legit contest. But his matches were boring. Ditto Harley for the most part, ditto Jack Brisco and so on and so on, when the business was still kayfabed to shit and actual newspapers would run stories on wrestling like it was all a shoot. Hogan was an entirely different time, a different style and a different product, there is no comparison to be made.
That maybe true
but I just cannot stand it when people think Hogan SAVED the business and that he revolutionized anything
He didn't 'save' it, wrestling would still be around today Hulk Hogan or not, how big or successful etc it is is another question and story. But he definitely revolutionized the business. Have you watched Backlund matches, Bruno matches and so on? No matter who's the ideas they were, Hogan was the one out there executing it all, the face of everything, the one actually getting it done. You didn't see people in the stands at Bulls games in Chicago wearing Phil Jackson jerseys. They were too busy going apeshit over the show being put on by the ridiculously good and successful Michael Jordan and his supporting cast.
Hogan gets credit because he was the one who put people in seats. An idea isn't anything. You can play the what if game all day but it's irrelevant how well someone else would have done because Hogan did do it.
Or this.
Lara Emily
03-13-2011, 10:39 PM
God for someone who bitches that people dismiss Hogan you sure just did a fantastic job dismissing Piper there CSL
Tom Guycott
03-14-2011, 03:08 AM
Have always questioned this to tbh, but i'm no expert on the matter. He was just in the right place, at the right time sort of thing.
::sigh:: I guess I need to do the honors. Frankly, I'm shocked and amazed this topic lasted 2 pages without this:
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/o7yP-T3ZCsg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
God for someone who bitches that people dismiss Hogan you sure just did a fantastic job dismissing Piper there CSL
lol if you say so buddy
Lara Emily
03-14-2011, 07:59 AM
I get the impression that you don't get just how integral a good heel is
Supreme Olajuwon
03-14-2011, 08:33 AM
The revisionist history is pretty ridiculous in here but I guess that's to be expected.
But anyway it's pretty clear why we're doing it. Hogan is a tremendously horrendous dog shit excuse for a human being. He is, there's no denying it. So we want to downplay his accomplishments and take away any credit he gets for his time in the business. That's fine. So let's do that. Instead of pretendingg Hogan wasn't important and that his role could've been duplicated by anybody, let's acknowledge that he was great, but his continuing quest to be the biggest asshole on the planet ruins his legacy and we don't want anything to do with him.
See how easy that is? And we don't have to lie or delude ourselves with fake facts and silly opinions. Go team!
El Fangel
03-14-2011, 08:36 AM
My opinion was, it was all McMahon but he needed someone to push as the mega-face and Hogan was him.
Basically, you take John Cena back to the 80's he would be as well.
Perhaps that's what Vince is trying to do with Cena since it worked once. :roll:
I get the impression that you don't get just how integral a good heel is
Your impression isn't a very well-sighted one.
Savio
03-14-2011, 09:11 AM
hogan helped WWF get on top by killing WCW.
Lara Emily
03-14-2011, 09:28 AM
Your impression isn't a very well-sighted one.
You're4 claiming Piper is easily replaceable. Says a lot.
Supreme Olajuwon
03-14-2011, 09:35 AM
I'm pretty sure he was just responding to someone who said Piper was not replaceable and Hogan was. That could just be me though. I am a reader.
You're4 claiming Piper is easily replaceable. Says a lot.
No. I claimed in that specific spot at that specific time he was probably replaceable. I'm not dismissing him as anything. Piper is the fucking man. But Hogan was so over, with such a massive combined mainstream media and wrestling machine behind him and at the exact right time that any good heel would have got by in that role. Making people pay to want to see you get your 'comeuppance', to see the face get revenge or overcome the odds etc is very important for the most part. And they couldn't have asked for a better guy than Piper to fill that spot. But in this instance, he was probably replaceable, definitely more so than Hogan. Had Piper had that heel run later in his career, he'd probably have been a lot more integral to whatever potential success came from that. But this was pretty much the birth of sports entertainment, the product that has been pro wrestling for nearly 30 years. And the fact is, Hulk Hogan is more integral to that than any other performer ever. Definitely more so than Roddy Piper.
I should probably start refreshing the page hitting reply, Supreme could have saved my fingers some work with a sentence :o
Supreme Olajuwon
03-14-2011, 09:51 AM
yours was better though
Swiss Ultimate
03-14-2011, 10:55 AM
Hogan gets credit because he was the one who put people in seats. An idea isn't anything. You can play the what if game all day but it's irrelevant how well someone else would have done because Hogan did do it.
The revisionist history is pretty ridiculous in here but I guess that's to be expected.
But anyway it's pretty clear why we're doing it. Hogan is a tremendously horrendous dog shit excuse for a human being. He is, there's no denying it. So we want to downplay his accomplishments and take away any credit he gets for his time in the business. That's fine. So let's do that. Instead of pretendingg Hogan wasn't important and that his role could've been duplicated by anybody, let's acknowledge that he was great, but his continuing quest to be the biggest asshole on the planet ruins his legacy and we don't want anything to do with him.
See how easy that is? And we don't have to lie or delude ourselves with fake facts and silly opinions. Go team!
My opinion was, it was all McMahon but he needed someone to push as the mega-face and Hogan was him.
Basically, you take John Cena back to the 80's he would be as well.
Perhaps that's what Vince is trying to do with Cena since it worked once. :roll:
Supreme Olajuwon
03-14-2011, 11:04 AM
I don't understand. Are you agreeing with all three of those?
ron the dial
03-14-2011, 11:04 AM
hypotheticals are pointless. don't see the reason for this discussion. it WAS hogan, and WASN'T anybody else. that's why hogan gets the credit. because HE was the man on top bringing in the money, regardless of what other factors were involved. sure, it could have been macho man, but it wasn't. so who cares? supreme summed it up well.
Lara Emily
03-14-2011, 11:14 AM
I'd settle with the idea that it was a perfect mix, the right face, the right heel, the right celebs, the right time.
I think people play down Hogan a bit because he gets so much of the credit and Piper and Mr T and Lauper get none.
Swiss Ultimate
03-14-2011, 06:52 PM
I don't understand. Are you agreeing with all three of those?
Kind of.
Swiss Ultimate
03-15-2011, 06:03 AM
Bump.
Gertner
03-15-2011, 10:58 AM
Hogan's face run made the WWF part of pop culture. Hogan's heel run made WCW relevant. Stop hating because OMGZ HIZ WORKRATE SUX. He's probably the best business man in the history of wrestling. When you ask anybody to name a wrestler the first answer they'll give is Hogan.
voncouch
03-17-2011, 12:17 PM
The IWC is hilarious. All they do is rip on main eventers and fellate mid carders. Say what you want about Hogan. Any criticism you can throw, I can answer with the following: He's Hulk Hogan. Would Hogan have been as popular without Vince's superman push? Probably not. But he would have done alright. He was already a movie star with Rocky 3 and a main eventer in the AWA before Vince pushed him to the moon. Hogan bled charisma and was a larger-than-life phenomenon. His name alone has drawn money for the past 25 years. Sure every match ending was the same, he was a sneaky backstage politician, has overstayed his welcome, and my dead grandmother could do a better leg drop. But Hulk Hogan equals wrestling, plain and simple.
RVDmark
03-17-2011, 12:27 PM
When you ask anybody to name a wrestler the first answer they'll give is Hogan.
In the early 90's sure, but nowadays I bet a lot of people would say either Flair, Rock, Austin, Angle, Cena, or Orton too.
They are pretty well known in the UK anyway.
I agree that Hogan helped take the wrestling business to the world stage, but Rock/Austin and the attitude era (and all the midcarders that implies) propelled it to the hyper level it was at in it prime.
Gertner
03-17-2011, 01:59 PM
Wrestling was never more mainstream and bigger than it was during Hogan's era
Jeritron
03-17-2011, 04:12 PM
I can't believe anyone would even try to equate the fame of Orton to Hogan.
The rest of them aside from Rock and Austin are even a stretch, with due credit to the fame of Flair and Cena.
Angle and Orton have no business being that high on a list of culturally recognizable wrestlers.
Especially since you didn't include Andre The Giant, Savage, Undertaker and Ultimate Warrior.
Swiss Ultimate
03-17-2011, 05:25 PM
Hogan's face run made the WWF part of pop culture. Hogan's heel run made WCW relevant. Stop hating because OMGZ HIZ WORKRATE SUX. He's probably the best business man in the history of wrestling. When you ask anybody to name a wrestler the first answer they'll give is Hogan.
No shit, just asked three people to name a wrestler.
Rock, Rock and Austin
Oh well in that case, argument over. Indisputable proof and evidence right there lads.
Rock Bottom
03-17-2011, 07:01 PM
THE FACT IS THAT NONE OF THIS WOULD BE POSSIBLE IF IT WEREN'T FOR YOU (THE FANS).
Jakob Synn
03-18-2011, 02:38 AM
Just read a thread where it was said that Hogan revolutionized the business.
Really? Pretty sure that Hogan's popularity was equal parts "charisma" and "Vince McMahon".
You're exactly right! But here's the thing, a lot of people who are big or famous are famous because they were at the right place at the right time or they had someone else to help push them.
Hogan had that and capitilized on it.
It was being at the right place at the right time. I mean he wasn't the greatest but he moreso revolutionized being a superstar. Meaning even though he wasn't that great at wrestling he was great at creating the charisma of the character that made him sell that made him go over so well.
Feel like the guy was always just a lucky, albeit talented, jerk. What exactly did Hogan "revolutionize"? Cheesy promos? Formulaic matches? Baldness?
During that time it was the in thing. It was something that went over just like how Cena goes over now-a-days.
If anything guys who were a lot less popular and famous actually deserve the credit for major changes to pro wrestling. Brian Pillman, Ric Flair and Mick Foley's promos have been a major influence on the current generation of wrestlers. Flair's style of wrestling has sure as hell influenced the current generation of technical wrestlers.
That's the thing about politics in the wrestling biz, it's all about who plays them and Hulk becoming good buddies with Vince helped put him over but Vince saw something in Hulk to help put him over so WWF would become mainstream and didn't see it in others. It's okay. Some wrestlers become giant superstars despite their ability and that's just like anything else in the world.
I mean you can bitch about the artists/bands that are big right now that are famous. They are lame, but artists/bands that are talented get passed on because it's all a matter of what sells.
So why give Hogan credit for anything aside from bringing in shitloads of fans with the help of McMahon and then Bischoff?
As much as Hogan is a lame ass douche right now don't discredit his past accomplishments.
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