Legitimate world champions in a 2 brand world

[Destor]

Topic is simple: do you respect smackdown champions are legit world champions? to me its like being the intercontinental champion was in the 90s. You're good, we respect your work, but you aren't at the top. now i think most would agree with BUT do they actually feel like they're a world champ to you? for example does Danielson or Ziggler REALLY feel like they at one point were THE MAN? and isnt that what being the world champ really means anyway?

[Ultra Mantis]

It hasnt really held any weight for years but i'd say Swagger winning it after months of jobbing clean to Santino really damaged the prestige, then the dissolving of the brand split made it pretty clear it's not the top belt.

[The Condor]

Simple no, and the WHC has no meaning due to the lack of a brand split anyhow. It ought to be combined with the WWE title at this point and used to elevate the IC title

[James Steele]

Hasn't meant anything since the Edge/Undertaker feud.

[Big Vic]

Its been the B title since HHH stopped caring about it.

[Hanso Amore]

Hasn't meant anything since the Edge/Undertaker feud.

yeah. That was the last time i remember that title having more clout in the matches for it than "Cena vs WHomever".

[Emperor Smeat]

Depends on who has the title since someone like Undertaker makes the title seem more important than someone like Christian.

Do agree that it fits more as a IC level title in the sense once the belt moved to Smackdown, its been used more as the test title for potential new stars before they go to RAW (ex. CM Punk).

[#1-norm-fan]

At the very least it used to, at least in WWE's mind, signify the top guy on Smackdown. Now with no brand split, having the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP as a second tier title is lame. It doesn't get anyone over for holding it anymore. They're better off dissolving it and putting that focus into the IC Title.

[crusnik]

Simple no, and the WHC has no meaning due to the lack of a brand split anyhow. It ought to be combined with the WWE title at this point and used to elevate the IC title

:y:

I agree with this.There are too many belts,therefore not making the WHC not as important as it should be.There shoud only be the WWE BELT,the IC belt and tag team belts.I'm on the fence of having a diva'a champion belt actually, the divas suck these days.

[whiteyford]

It's how the shows are perceived, Raw is the only one that seems to matter most weeks so the WHC is always going to come across as inferior, actually strengthen the brand split and it would grow in prestige if booked accordingly.

[whiteyford]

Or throw it on Cena and see it main event stuff.

[Wishbone]

WWE needs to combine the WWE and WHC titles together like everyone said. The WHC is essentially just a stepping stone of sorts, like a bike with training wheels to see if the guy holding it is gonna make it or fall over and skin his knee. Allows WWE to test someone without the danger of having the WWE title picture get muddied, or to give a nod to someone who's been doing good work their whole career but just isn't going to get the nod for the main belt.

Best case scenario would be to fuse the world titles, elevate the IC title, swap the US title for the Cruiserweight title, and actually push the tag and diva's titles. I honestly think the only reason this hasn't happened yet is because WWE has just gotten too used to the idea of having a testing title. Well that and they really can't decide who should be the guy to unify them as that would be a pretty big deal.

[Big Vic]

In a sense "Cena" is the world title now.

[Wishbone]

In a sense "Cena" is the world title now.

Not really. Cena is "The Man", but he gets beat so many times that it's not that big a deal to topple SuperCena anymore. If anything I think this might be the first time since his initial title run that the belt is actually helping elevate Cena again.

[Wishbone]

Really this whole thing with Punk, Rock and Cena has made the WWE title actually mean something again. Maybe that's all the WHC needs to get back to that level? Meh probably not, but you never know. Taker coming back to take the title from a member of The Shield at next year's mania would be pretty entertaining. Have Taker go over and set up a feud leading into Summerslam that year with someone of high caliber. Essentially Punk/Rock/Cena lite.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

It's just used as a test run for guys who aren't at the top, while the guys at the top never go for it. Most guys who go after the WHC title now shouldn't be main eventing. It's just generally a bit shit that they have two world title belts because that now means half the roster is a former world champion.

[Wishbone]

It's just used as a test run for guys who aren't at the top, while the guys at the top never go for it. Most guys who go after the WHC title now shouldn't be main eventing. It's just generally a bit shit that they have two world title belts because that now means half the roster is a former world champion.

I half agree with you here. It's pretty terrible that we can have a match at almost every show where the announcers say "These men are all former world champions in their own right", but I don't think that all the guys going for it have no business ever being a world champion. Guys like Punk, Del Rio, Sheamus and Kane all fit just fine into that world. It just seems like rather than keeping a set of world champions shuffling through the title picture WWE has taken to just throwing every tom, dick and harry they can find into it for shits and giggles.

Guys like Swagger, Bryan and Ziggler's initial title runs are what have caused the title to be meaningless. I'm not saying they shouldn't have ever held world titles. I mean Ziggler's current reign is pretty good, but calling him a former world champ for holding it for 2 minutes, especially when he wasn't really even over at the time is just stupid. Swagger holding the title now would be worth while, but when he was the "All American American" it was just disgraceful. And Bryan cashing in MITB when he was just a bland indy guy was a wasted opportunity.

If they'd waited till now, when Bryan has the fans in the palm of his hands he could easily have had an amazing moment where he overcame the odds ala that fucking scumbag Benoit.

[#1-norm-fan]

It's like if back in the day, Hogan held the WWE title but then they had another "main title" called the World Heavyweight title and just threw that one on a combination of Rick Martel, The Big Bossman and Haku. You've got a shitty "World Title" that means nothing and at the same time, while everyone knows Hogan is "the man", you're diminishing that title by passing him off as being just one of the two guys who are officially "at the top" of the company.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Billy Gunn could've been a former world champion if they'd had two belts back then :(

[Frank Drebin]

I remember when they ditched the European, Hardcore and Light Heavyweight titles because they had too many belts floating around...

Anyway, would like to see a consolidation of titles at some point just because no one really cares about the IC and US titles which used to be the belts that were put on guys as a test run before they got the big shot. Seems like the more titles are around the easier it is to start a feud and make an easy story out of that no one really cares about from the start. "Kofi and Ceasaro really hate each oth.....zzzzzzzzz". Whatever Kofi has the belt now. Fine.

US and IC titles aren't even defended at PPVs on a regular basis. Trying to remember the last time I cared about a feud surrounding either belt other than "Yah it'd be cool for Barrett to have it I guess."

Does keeping the WCW belts remind people of the history so they can keep mentioning them for future dvd sales? I dunno. Kinda surprised Vince didn't melt it down and make it into a desk lamp.

[GD]

I personally believe that the WWE should be represented by only one World's Heavyweight Champion. Not only will it make winning the world title a bigger deal but also the importance of the secondary belts shall increase accordingly.

After the unification occurs, it would be wise to affiliate the unified trophy to the history of the WWE Championship. It would also be cool if the new WWE Championship were to be represented by the big gold belt.

[#1-norm-fan]

I remember when they ditched the European, Hardcore and Light Heavyweight titles because they had too many belts floating around...

Even with those belts though, they served a purpose. The European title was the lower-midcard title for a while (Kinda what the TV Title was in it's early days in WCW) and the Hardcore and Cruiserweight titles serve the purpose of being the main prize of specific divisions.

I'd be all for them bringing back the Cruiserweight title for guys like Justin Gabriel and Tyson Kidd to fight over since they're really just on the roster to put on exciting matches on Superstars and don't realistically have the main title as a potential goal. Give them something to strive for and feud over.

I don't care how many belts they have as long as they all serve a real purpose.

[Bad News Gertner]

Only if it's a wrestler I like

[Curd]

It's like if back in the day, Hogan held the WWE title but then they had another "main title" called the World Heavyweight title and just threw that one on a combination of Rick Martel, The Big Bossman and Haku. You've got a shitty "World Title" that means nothing and at the same time, while everyone knows Hogan is "the man", you're diminishing that title by passing him off as being just one of the two guys who are officially "at the top" of the company.

Great analogy. As Rick Martel was AWA Champion, so today's WHC is in the same ballpark of prestige.

[GD]

Hasn't meant anything since the Edge/Undertaker feud.

It was brought back to the main event picture back when CM Punk and Jeff Harvey were feuding.

[Tazz Dan]

Thread in which Destor asks us what we thought of his title run. Well played sir.

[Bad News Gertner]

Topic is simple: do you respect smackdown champions are legit world champions? to me its like being the intercontinental champion was in the 90s. You're good, we respect your work, but you aren't at the top. now i think most would agree with BUT do they actually feel like they're a world champ to you? for example does Danielson or Ziggler REALLY feel like they at one point were THE MAN? and isnt that what being the world champ really means anyway?

Danielson? Who's that?

[Shisen Kopf]

I think he means Daniel-san. What Mr Miyaga called the karate kid.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

It depends who the title holder is. Dolph made it important by how he reacted and how the fans reacted when he won it.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah, that was one night. It's still not important and Dolph still has no momentum. Might as well have won the US title. It's about as meaningful.

[The Snake]

It's like if back in the day, Hogan held the WWE title but then they had another "main title" called the World Heavyweight title and just threw that one on a combination of Rick Martel, The Big Bossman and Haku.

I don't remember any of that. Was this post Wrestlemania 6? I think that's about when I stopped watching until about '99.

[XL]

He was making an anology. Comparing today's setup to the past.

[Lock Jaw]

What needs to happen is Punk wins the WHC, while Cena holds the WWE Title until Mania, when the two go at it in a "final battle" for all the chips.

[GD]

What needs to happen is Punk wins the WHC, while Cena holds the WWE Title until Mania, when the two go at it in a "final battle" for all the chips.

This makes me happy in my pants.

[Big Vic]

I half agree with you here. It's pretty terrible that we can have a match at almost every show where the announcers say "These men are all former world champions in their own right", but I don't think that all the guys going for it have no business ever being a world champion. Guys like Punk, Del Rio, Sheamus and Kane all fit just fine into that world.I'm glad Kane got the run since his only WWF title reign was very short.

[Big Vic]

What needs to happen is Punk wins the WHC, while Cena holds the WWE Title until Mania, when the two go at it in a "final battle" for all the chips.
The Royal Rumble stip kinda fucks that up.

[The Jayman]

The Royal Rumble stip kinda fucks that up.

Not really if you factor in the Elimination Chamber PPV before WM. The RR winner can use his title shot at EC

[The Jayman]

I think Cena was the one who did that in 2008 at No Way Out

[Lock Jaw]

Option 1: Punk wins the Rumble and uses his shot for the WHC at EC because he has the lofty goal of unifying the titles at WM.

Option 2: Punk is already WHC, but is a "surprise" entrant into the Rumble and wins it while the commentators go "HE'S ALREADY A CHAMPION, WHAT IS HE DOING IN THIS MATCH?!!"

[XL]

Pretty much as easy as that.

[Big Vic]

Thinking about this makes me really wish they moved that Elimination Chamber PPV to any other month.

[Ermaximus]

Or throw it on Cena and see it main event stuff.

To be fair, Cena could make the Hardcore Title or Europen Title Main Event stuff if it were around his waist.

[Fignuts]

Back during the days of HHH, Eddie, and JBL's runs, yes, it was very legit.

[Lock Jaw]

Thinking about this makes me really wish they moved that Elimination Chamber PPV to any other month.

I've thought ever since they put it there, that it is wasted in that month. They are already committed to their Mania plans by then, making it seem almost "filler".

It was more exciting in the summer, where you actually had six guys who seemed to "legit" have a chance.

[Big Vic]

We had a brand split though then fignuts

[XL]

Back during the days of HHH, Eddie, and JBL's runs, yes, it was very legit.

Eddie and JBL were WWE Champions.

[Mr. Nerfect]

They were WWE Champions on SmackDown, though. The World Heavyweight Title was being defended in the main event of WrestleMania those years.

I'm of the belief that the brand split can be saved. If they established respective rosters and stuck to it, they could have the WWE Title at the top of one show and the World Heavyweight Title at the top of another. Then you can have the US Title and IC Title as respective stepping stone belts on each brand. With Kassius Ohno, Richie Steamboat, Bo Dallas (whether you like it or not), Bray Wyatt, The Family, Paige, Emma, Adrian Neville, Evan Bourne, Hunico, Camacho, Brad Maddox, Leo Kruger, Conor O'Brian, Rick Victor and Corey Graves as solid talent that is either on yet to debut or currently inactive, you've got plenty of mid-card talent to fill out roles on RAW and SmackDown. If you bring back some mid-card guys from the past, like John Morrison and MVP (both of whom have said that they are fairly open to returning), there's plenty of potential for two deep rosters.

If the WWE is absolutely against the idea of two rosters, then I think it makes absolutely no sense to have two World Titles active. If you're not the overall champion of something, why keep it around? For the meantime, I think there could be a way to sustain both titles, as long as they had Superstars actually go out of their way to express their interest in being the World Heavyweight Champion specifically. For example, Alberto Del Rio set his sights on the World Heavyweight Title when he initially debuted in the WWE -- calling it his "destiny" to win it -- so he is one guy that should always be going after that belt. The Miz has never been World Heavyweight Champion before, and that would complete his Grand Slam. He is another guy that could set his sights specifically to being WHC. Mark Henry, given his pride in his strength and power could consider himself the heavyweight, and thus the World Heavyweight Title might fit his persona more than the WWE Championship.

They could also have those big name part-timers they have go after the belt. The Rock winning the World Heavyweight Title and dropping it off to someone would be pretty huge. Brock Lesnar would also make a fairly amazing World Heavyweight Champ.

[GD]

I've been entertaining the idea of Brock Lesnar as World Heavyweight Champion ever since the WWE HQ segment.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I actually wanted to see it before then. Just because Brock Lesnar as WWE Champion and appearing only sporadically would be a bit too reminiscent of The Rock's reign. As World Heavyweight Champion, though, Brock would actually be raising the prestige of the championship. Plus, Lesnar has never been WHC before, and having a replica of the big gold belt might be a cool thank you for him coming back.

[Theo Dious]

They were WWE Champions on SmackDown, though. The World Heavyweight Title was being defended in the main event of WrestleMania those years.

My balls would like to point out that Angle/Lesnar main-evented WM19 from Smackdown while HHH/Booker T made a pretty mediocre spectacle mid-show from Raw.

[Mr. Nerfect]

My balls would like to point out that Angle/Lesnar main-evented WM19 from Smackdown while HHH/Booker T made a pretty mediocre spectacle mid-show from Raw.

Yes, they did. But in the Eddie Guerrero/JBL era, the World Heavyweight Title headlined WrestleMania XX and WrestleMania 21. Both championships were seen as legitimate "World Titles."

[Tom Guycott]

I remember when they ditched the European, Hardcore and Light Heavyweight titles because they had too many belts floating around...

[...]

US and IC titles aren't even defended at PPVs on a regular basis. Trying to remember the last time I cared about a feud surrounding either belt other than "Yah it'd be cool for Barrett to have it I guess."





Even with those belts though, they served a purpose. The European title was the lower-midcard title for a while (Kinda what the TV Title was in it's early days in WCW) and the Hardcore and Cruiserweight titles serve the purpose of being the main prize of specific divisions.

I'd be all for them bringing back the Cruiserweight title for guys like Justin Gabriel and Tyson Kidd to fight over since they're really just on the roster to put on exciting matches on Superstars and don't realistically have the main title as a potential goal. Give them something to strive for and feud over.

I don't care how many belts they have as long as they all serve a real purpose.

And that's the thing; it all depends on the set up scene.

I'm the guy who thinks people oversimplify "just consolidate the titles back to Undisputed" in the same way they see "Cena going heel = instant give a fuck", but even I see that right now (and that's the catch: THIS MOMENT IN HISTORY) that one belt would make more sense. It's not simply because there should only be one guy, it's because WWE let the two champion system stagnate to where people constantly bitch that there should only be one guy.

All of those second/third/tertiary tier championships mentioned that have since been unified and/or fallen off the earth all filled a role in the landscape at one point in time. For example, the Light Heavyweight stuff was pretty awesome when there was an abundance of small guys to jump around and compete for it. It wasn't so awesome when you just had Shane Helms and... uh... yeah, everyone else is a heavyweight.

Even the Pink Piss-break Championship meant more when there were actually multiple women who could at least halfway wrestle AND were cute enough to hold attention on their own, as opposed to now where "every girl gets a turn" and how hot they are supercedes any type of need to even HAVE a Divas division where the arm charms have random clusterfuck matches and only one "serious" contender for the title at a time. At this point, they could pretty much just be valets, and nobody would give a damn because just about all of them are valets anyhow.

Part of the problem on the world champion front is, and has always been, focus. And that focus is RAW. For the better part of the last decade or so, they've used a good chunk of Smackdown to tell us what happened on RAW. They spend a good chunk of RAW telling us what happened on RAW the previous week. They spend a good chunk of RAW telling us what JUST HAPPENED on the same episode at the top of the show, a segment ago, a commercial break ago! People get really over? Ship 'em to RAW. RAW is important, and if you're not on RAW, you don't matter. For as much as they were supposed to be legitimizing the WHC by having "another brand", they've offhandedly continued to drill home that that brand shouldn't matter to their audience. Then they pretty much called the split dead, all but calling Smackdown insignificant. They've continued defeat the entire purpose of a second world champion at every turn.

Unless they do something to change that culture (like the examples of Brock or Cena or 'Taker winning it for spotlight purposes), I concede that they should just lump them both together. Not because it's a knee-jerk reaction, but because they don't currently foster the climate to sustain to supposedly equal world champions in much the same way as not having legit and numerous tag teams killed the tag division.

[Ruien]

No idea why people complain about the current setup. It is the same thing as the WWE Belt/IC/European/Lightweight or whatever system WCW had. These titles have different names and that is it. The only grip I can see is having a title named World Heavyweight Champion but that is minor to me.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ruien has a good point. It's just a stupid naming system. Also, I often can't work out whether the WWE cares more about the IC or US Title.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If the WWE refused to go back to two distinguished rosters, I would like to see a title scheme that looks likes this:

WWE World Heavyweight Champion
Intercontinental Champion
WWE World Tag Team Champions
Divas Champion
WWE 15 Champion

The WWE 15 Championship would be the concept FCW used where championship matches go for fifteen minutes and the winner is the guy who scores the most falls within that time limit. It'd be a championship that would stand out from the others, the matches would be different, you'd be guaranteed a pretty well-worked match on whatever show the title is being defended on, and it allows guys to showcase themselves in that position.

[#1-norm-fan]

No idea why people complain about the current setup. It is the same thing as the WWE Belt/IC/European/Lightweight or whatever system WCW had. These titles have different names and that is it. The only grip I can see is having a title named World Heavyweight Champion but that is minor to me.

It's not the same thing though. Like I said earlier, in WCW's system, every belt had a reason/identity. With the WWE's old title setup, every belt had an reason/identity. Not to mention the fact that WWE is currently awful at building up more than 2 titles. Assuming they stay this inept, I'd even say "fuck it" and ONLY have a World and WWE title. Then you could at least say "This is the top title, this is the 'not yet at that level' title." There you go. Identity.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That is a very good point, wwf-fan.

[#1-norm-fan]

I thank you very much, Noid.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm actually really nostalgic for the roster split.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

If the WWE refused to go back to two distinguished rosters, I would like to see a title scheme that looks likes this:

WWE World Heavyweight Champion
Intercontinental Champion
WWE World Tag Team Champions
Divas Champion
WWE 15 Champion

The WWE 15 Championship would be the concept FCW used where championship matches go for fifteen minutes and the winner is the guy who scores the most falls within that time limit. It'd be a championship that would stand out from the others, the matches would be different, you'd be guaranteed a pretty well-worked match on whatever show the title is being defended on, and it allows guys to showcase themselves in that position.

The 15 Championship will just show how boring/stale most of the rosters is when they can't show anything decent in 15 minutes.

[mike adamle]

I doubt they would put a wrestler who can't perform a good 15 minute match in a 15 minute match. You are so stupid, STD.

[MrMyc]

WWE World Heavyweight Champion
Intercontinental Champion
WWE World Tag Team Champions
Divas Champion
WWE Television Champion (defended on every raw)