Rollins STRIPPED of WWE WHC, Out 6-9 months

[Mr. Nerfect]

Simmering doesn't matter if they put Reigns back into the oven and turn it all the way up at Survivor Series.

[The CyNick]

I don't understand why they would turn Ambrose or Cesaro when they have momentum and are so over as fan favourites.

If they want to guarantee Reigns a prominent role, surely he is the one that has to turn, as he is the one they want on top the most, and is the one who has the most difficulty connectinh with the audience.

They need all the natural fan favourites they can get at the moment!

I'm guessing the fear with Roman is that the same group that doesnt like Cena, also doesnt like Roman. But unlike Cena, the pro Roman group isn't quite as vocal as the pro Cena group. Whether it comes down to Roman-Owens or Roman-Ambrose, I think at the PPV, Roman will be booed. So I could see an argument being made to shock the world by having Roman turn heel, you let him be champ, and now its cool if the fans boo him.

The problem is when they go on the road, he gets cheered like crazy. If I were WWE, and they had the plan to have a babyface Roman head into Mania, I would stick to that. Dont worry about the vocal minority in the audience.

[Lock Jaw]

I feel like Roman was ready to get the title as well, and I would have had him beat Rollins. However, I am unsure now if that is the best move now... sucks for Reigns that he won't get that "rub" from beating Rollins.... now if he does win it via the tournament it will feel a bit "anti-climactic" for his journey...

[The CyNick]

Simmering doesn't matter if they put Reigns back into the oven and turn it all the way up at Survivor Series.

Is this a turkey reference?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I would suggest that a Reigns babyface run at top would be a turkey, yes.

[The CyNick]

I feel like Roman was ready to get the title as well, and I would have had him beat Rollins. However, I am unsure now if that is the best move now... sucks for Reigns that he won't get that "rub" from beating Rollins.... now if he does win it via the tournament it will feel a bit "anti-climactic" for his journey...

Yeah I agree, but I think long term it works better. They did a really good job keeping Rollins and Reigns apart post Mania. You had Reigns now ready to finally get a proper one on one match with Rollins, but it got messed up. From a babyface climbing the mountain perspective, Reigns has been through it. He survived against Wyatt in the brutal HIAC match, he won the initial #1 contender series. And now if he goes through 15 other guys to the win the title, thats impressive. At the same time, if Rollins comes back as a babyface and Reigns is still the champ, they dont have to fight right away, but you could have Rollins saying "well you know, I never really lost that title". And that could lead to a nice face vs face program maybe for Mania 33.

[Mr. Nerfect]

The problem isn't with Reigns -- it's with his presentation and him being jammed down the audience's throat. It doesn't matter that the heat is dying down and that they didn't put the title on him at WrestleMania -- if you put the belt on him now, all that negativity just pops right back up.

[The CyNick]

I would suggest that a Reigns babyface run at top would be a turkey, yes.

well its Thanksgiving time, so turkey make sense

[Mr. Nerfect]

The BEST reaction you are going to get for him is general apathy and a few girls/children popping.

[Mr. Nerfect]

What does Reigns have that no one else in the WWE has that warrants him getting the belt right now? There's not really one thing.

[Lock Jaw]

What does Reigns have that no one else in the WWE has that warrants him getting the belt right now? There's not really one thing.

"Big" signature moves, being presented as strong, and having the booking team behind him.

[DAMN iNATOR]

well its Thanksgiving time, so turkey make sense

Not everybody eats Turkey at thanksgiving, you goof.

[#1-norm-fan]

"A lot of people criticize WWE for not thinking long term but if they have a shitty idea and then wait 7 months to go through with that same shitty idea without taking any real steps creatively toward making the idea better, that's long term planning, right!?"

- A hopeful WWE apologist AKA Cynick

[#1-norm-fan]

I mean, he came out of a feud with Bray Wyatt looking strong! Which NO ONE does! SUPER impressive! IT'S TIME, GUYS!

[Black Widow]

Rollins was all I was enjoying so sucks.

I hope Ambrose takes it.

[The CyNick]

What does Reigns have that no one else in the WWE has that warrants him getting the belt right now? There's not really one thing.

Size, unique look, presence, established finisher, sells merch

[The CyNick]

I mean, he came out of a feud with Bray Wyatt looking strong! Which NO ONE does! SUPER impressive! IT'S TIME, GUYS!

Who else looked as strong coming off a Wyatt program? Cena? He's already well established. Taker? Ditto.

Or are you talking nonsense again Corny?

[#1-norm-fan]

Jeeeeeeeesus...

[drave]

Who else looked as strong coming off a Wyatt program? Cena? He's already well established. Taker? Ditto.

Or are you talking nonsense again Corny?

You are just proving his point that EVERYONE comes out of a Wyatt feud looking strong. Sarcasm, flat words on a screen, titties, etc.

[Simple Fan]

The problem isn't with Reigns -- it's with his presentation and him being jammed down the audience's throat. It doesn't matter that the heat is dying down and that they didn't put the title on him at WrestleMania -- if you put the belt on him now, all that negativity just pops right back up.

Yep. Reigns could be a lot better but they try to present him as Cena 2.0 and he's not good at it. His in ring work is weak and has to be carried through matches so he can do his Samoan Drop, Apron Kick, Clotheslines, a Superman Punch, and a spear. He has potential but its not as the top babyface at not in its current presentation.

[hb2k]

I know this is too much to ask for, but a finish that doesn't centre TV around The Authority for the next year would be welcome. Very welcome, in fact.

[The CyNick]

You are just proving his point that EVERYONE comes out of a Wyatt feud looking strong. Sarcasm, flat words on a screen, titties, etc.

So Cena, Taker, and now Reigns. You guys are right, there's no reason anyone should be taking Reigns seriously when he's in the company of guys like that. And what a jobber Wyatt had turned into. Imagine losing to the face of the franchise, the guy who has been on top for 25 years and the up and coming top babyface. Burrrrrrried. Amirite?

[The CyNick]

Yep. Reigns could be a lot better but they try to present him as Cena 2.0 and he's not good at it. His in ring work is weak and has to be carried through matches so he can do his Samoan Drop, Apron Kick, Clotheslines, a Superman Punch, and a spear. He has potential but its not as the top babyface at not in its current presentation.

A babyface only needs 5-6 moves. They should be able to kick, punch, and sell their way through the rest. He brought the crowd up against Wyatt and was good in making people think Cesaro had a chance last night. The promos still need work though. That's going to be his biggest challenge, because he doesn't seem natural at it.

[Simple Fan]

Disagree, only having 5 or 6 moves is weak in my opinion. Especially the moves Reigns uses. He's a big guy that hardly ever uses power moves. I mean beating Big Show with a spear is dumb. He needs to open up his move set but he won't because WWE isn't wrestling so he just needs moves that will make people say wow until they get sick of seeing the same shot over and over. I understand how you love the product so much because its the only wrestling you watch and you don't know anything else.

[The CyNick]

I only watch the NFL, I don't watch the CFL or the AFL or any other small time organization. Same applies to my sports entertainment. What would I get from watching another product? How to be less successful?

Regardless, I've been watching this game long enough to know a top guy, especially a babyface really just needs a handful of moves. You just need to know when to use them in the context of a match to hype the crowd. Look at most of the all time greats, when they hit it big they stuck to a handful of moves. If you don't believe me, ask Austin.

I'm not saying Reigns couldn't benefit from a couple extra moves, but it's not critical. And he will develop more moves as he starts having longer matches on a more consistent basis and needs that series of moves when he's making a comeback.

[Big Vic]

Can't wait until Reign pulls out the spring board stunner.

[The CyNick]

Can't wait until Reign pulls out the spring board stunner.

Spring board Rock Bottom

[Simple Fan]

I only watch the NFL, I don't watch the CFL or the AFL or any other small time organization. Same applies to my sports entertainment. What would I get from watching another product? How to be less successful?

I didn't suggest you to watch another product was just pointing out that you enjoy the WWE product so much because its the only source of the wrestling you watch. Your not a wresting fan your a sports entertainment fan. A WWE sheep as you would say.

[The CyNick]

I didn't suggest you to watch another product was just pointing out that you enjoy the WWE product so much because its the only source of the wrestling you watch. Your not a wresting fan your a sports entertainment fan. A WWE sheep as you would say.

Were talking about sports entertainment though. Does anyone still do wrestling these days?

[Corporate CockSnogger]

Why do people always talk about the number of moves a guy has as his detractor. I bet the same people who put down Cena or Reigns for his low number of moves, love Ric Flair and Chris Benoit whose matches were 95% knife edge chops.

You can just say you don't enjoy them. Suggesting they don't do enough moves seems stupid.

[Simple Fan]

But that's the reason I don't enjoy him. Even Cynick said the guy could benefit from some more moves. For a big guy his offense is kinda weak. His only power move is a samoan drop. Never liked the spear as a finisher anyway. He should have kept the power bomb from his shield days.

[Shadrick]

But that's the reason I don't enjoy him. Even Cynick said the guy could benefit from some more moves. For a big guy his offense is kinda weak. His only power move is a samoan drop. Never liked the spear as a finisher anyway. He should have kept the power bomb from his shield days.

...the triple power bomb?

[The CyNick]

Power moves are tough, because you want to be able to do them to everyone on the roster.

[Simple Fan]

...the triple power bomb?

Yeah without the triple obviously.

[Simple Fan]

Power moves are tough, because you want to be able to do them to everyone on the roster.

How is Michael Cole ever going to blow his load if Reigns can't pick up the Big Show. Reigns is one of the bigger guys on the roster he should be able to pick everyone up.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Size, unique look, presence, established finisher, sells merch

Size? Let's talk weight:

Big E, Big Show, Braun Strowman, Bray Wyatt, Brock Lesnar, Bubba Ray Dudley, D-Von Dudley, Erick Rowan, Jack Swagger, Kane, Kevin Owens, Luke Harper, Mark Henry, Rusev, Ryback, Sheamus, Titus O'Neil and The Undertaker are all either heavier than Reigns, or billed as being heavier.

Let's talk height:

Alberto Del Rio, Big Show, Braun Strowman, Bray Wyatt, Brock Lesnar, Bubba Ray Dudley, Cesaro, Curtis Axel, Damien Sandow, Dean Ambrose, Erick Rowan, Fandango, Goldust, Jack Swagger, Jimmy Uso, Kane, King Barrett, Konnor, Luke Harper, Mark Henry, Randy Orton, The Rock, Titus O'Neil, Triple H, The Undertaker are all either as tall as Reigns, or taller.

Wrestlers that appear on both lists:

Big Show, Braun Strowman, Bray Wyatt, Brock Lesnar, Bubba Ray Dudley, Erick Rowan, Jack Swagger, Kane, Luke Harper, Mark Henry, Titus O'Neil and The Undertaker.

I'll let you run those stats.

[Mr. Nerfect]

"Big" signature moves, being presented as strong, and having the booking team behind him.

Here are answers that make sense. It's basically a corporate wham-job.

[Lock Jaw]

Which totally works. We just need MORE corporate wham-jobs.

[Rammsteinmad]

Roman Reigns had another stellar match this week on Raw. Hell, he even managed to get a decent match out of Cesaro. That guy is main event/world champion material!

[The CyNick]

How is Michael Cole ever going to blow his load if Reigns can't pick up the Big Show. Reigns is one of the bigger guys on the roster he should be able to pick everyone up.

Certain moves cant be done to Show and guys his size without looking completely ridiculous.

[The CyNick]

Size? Let's talk weight:

Big E, Big Show, Braun Strowman, Bray Wyatt, Brock Lesnar, Bubba Ray Dudley, D-Von Dudley, Erick Rowan, Jack Swagger, Kane, Kevin Owens, Luke Harper, Mark Henry, Rusev, Ryback, Sheamus, Titus O'Neil and The Undertaker are all either heavier than Reigns, or billed as being heavier.

Let's talk height:

Alberto Del Rio, Big Show, Braun Strowman, Bray Wyatt, Brock Lesnar, Bubba Ray Dudley, Cesaro, Curtis Axel, Damien Sandow, Dean Ambrose, Erick Rowan, Fandango, Goldust, Jack Swagger, Jimmy Uso, Kane, King Barrett, Konnor, Luke Harper, Mark Henry, Randy Orton, The Rock, Titus O'Neil, Triple H, The Undertaker are all either as tall as Reigns, or taller.

Wrestlers that appear on both lists:

Big Show, Braun Strowman, Bray Wyatt, Brock Lesnar, Bubba Ray Dudley, Erick Rowan, Jack Swagger, Kane, Luke Harper, Mark Henry, Titus O'Neil and The Undertaker.

I'll let you run those stats.

That certainly is a list of names. Way to contribute bud.

I dont understand your counterpoint here. As usual, I think you feel like you have a point, but you haven't effectively articulated it.

Are you thinking I said everyone over a certain height and weight should be pushed?
=

[Mr. Nerfect]

https://whatistheexcel.com/wooobooru/_images/c4e222a4e4bd28c5d4f53c2566446903/9239%20-%20glasses%20jim_cornette.jpg

[Shadrick]

Yeah without the triple obviously.

But he was using the Superman punch and the spear as finishers while that triple team move was happening. are you suggesting he change finishers to a powerbomb? I think that would have lent itself to him being even more bland

[Mr. Nerfect]

A Powerbomb every now and then would be nice, but it shouldn't be his primary finisher.

[Simple Fan]

I think a power bomb would be great for him as his finisher. The Superman punch is alright but I just hate the spear as a finisher if your not Rhyno.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Reigns pulls off the Spear fine. He should use that like 80-20 to the Powerbomb.

[Maluco]

The spear is so unoriginal though, and has been done to death, he needs something to call his own.

The spear also at least contributed to Edges neck problems

[Simple Fan]

Reigns pulls off the Spear fine. He should use that like 80-20 to the power bomb.

Nothing wrong with the way he does it, I just don't think its a good finisher. I mean its essentially a tackle and football players get up after every tackle if not for an injury.

[Emperor Smeat]

Superman Punch could work as a finisher on its own.

Needs to really cut back on the amount of times its used and have Big Show drop his own Knockout Punch finisher. Build it over time so that it really feels like a match could end once the setup happens just like with Big Show's punch or HBK's Sweet Chin Music.

Right now its just a regular punch that barely works most of the time to setup his finisher because he over does it in matches.

[Ruien]

Would hate for the Superman Punch to be hill his finisher. It does not look strong enough for the new top dawn in the WWE.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

How does DC allow the use of the term SuperMan Punch anyways?

[The CyNick]

I like the Superman Punch-Spear combo. Allows for lots of reversals when he's in big matches.

I do think he could use one more big move that could be a secondary finisher. Maybe a submission.

The Power Bomb could also work. Is anyone else using it now?

[Shadrick]

Nothing wrong with the way he does it, I just don't think its a good finisher. I mean its essentially a tackle and football players get up after every tackle if not for an injury.

dog, theres a ppv in 5 days that celebrates the career of a guy who has mythical powers that may or may not come from an urn lol

[Shadrick]

I like the Superman Punch-Spear combo. Allows for lots of reversals when he's in big matches.

I do think he could use one more big move that could be a secondary finisher. Maybe a submission.

The Power Bomb could also work. Is anyone else using it now?

i agree. he definitely needs a submission. would be interesting. very cena-ish, but interesting.

[Lock Jaw]

I think he definitely should have kept the powerbomb... granted when he used to do it, it was with Seth and Dean.... but no reason he can't do the OOOOOOOOOAAAAHHHHH Bomb on his own....

[Shadrick]

I think he definitely should have kept the powerbomb... granted when he used to do it, it was with Seth and Dean.... but no reason he can't do the OOOOOOOOOAAAAHHHHH Bomb on his own....

only if he calls it that.

[#1-norm-fan]

So Cena, Taker, and now Reigns. You guys are right, there's no reason anyone should be taking Reigns seriously when he's in the company of guys like that. And what a jobber Wyatt had turned into. Imagine losing to the face of the franchise, the guy who has been on top for 25 years and the up and coming top babyface. Burrrrrrried. Amirite?

Should I list guys who have jobbed to John Cena as if that's an accomplishment or nah?

Because I feel like it would be really dumb and pointless to start listing guys who have jobbed to John Cena as if JOBBING to John Cena is a rite of passage or something and actually means you're relevant. I feel like BEATING people is a sign that you're relevant as opposed to losing to them (I mean... even I could lose to John Cena... losing to someone is quite easy...) but that could just be me. I haven't been on in a couple days so there could be a ton of posts explaining how losing lots of matches means that beating you is a huge accomplishment so if there are then please disregard this post.

[#1-norm-fan]

Nope. Just CyNick replying to a Noid post is the most CyNick fashion ever and Noid making very appropriate use of a Cornette face. Carry on.

[The CyNick]

Should I list guys who have jobbed to John Cena as if that's an accomplishment or nah?

Because I feel like it would be really dumb and pointless to start listing guys who have jobbed to John Cena as if JOBBING to John Cena is a rite of passage or something and actually means you're relevant. I feel like BEATING people is a sign that you're relevant as opposed to losing to them (I mean... even I could lose to John Cena... losing to someone is quite easy...) but that could just be me. I haven't been on in a couple days so there could be a ton of posts explaining how losing lots of matches means that beating you is a huge accomplishment so if there are then please disregard this post.

I said Reigns looked strong coming off the program with Wyatt (an accurate statement). Someone said Wyatt is a jobber and everyone looks strong against him (a debatable point at best).

I pointed out his only major losses have been to top guys (Cena, Taker, and Reigns), which doesn't make him any type of jobber. His other programs (Bryan, Ryback, Ambrose, etc) he won. And he's also beaten Reigns and Cena at different times and he just laid out Taker last month.

So to me, by Reigns winning and looking strong, he puts himself in elite company who have beat Wyatt.

Is that factual enough? Or no?

[#1-norm-fan]

I only watch the NFL, I don't watch the CFL or the AFL or any other small time organization. Same applies to my sports entertainment. What would I get from watching another product? How to be less successful?

So you only watch things because they're successful? Things make sense now.

Do you also try to rationalize retarded things in other successful forms of entertainment so that your world view won't be shaken?

[#1-norm-fan]

Also "What would I get from watching another product? How to be less successful?" literally implies that you watch WWE/the NFL not for entertainment value but for educational value on how to build a successful brand. Which is hilarious.

[Stickman]

Judging by the tournament brackets it will be Reigns vs Ambrose for the belt. Maybe Barrett instead of Ambrose because they like face vs heal. I wouldn't be surprised by a Shamus cash in at some point either.

Predictable?


Hmmmmm.

[The CyNick]

Also "What would I get from watching another product? How to be less successful?" literally implies that you watch WWE/the NFL not for entertainment value but for educational value on how to build a successful brand. Which is hilarious.

I watch because it's the best game in town.

Sorry, maybe I should watch those shows in gyms with 40 people in the crowd. I'm sure they are superior at all aspects of sports entertainment.

[Shadrick]

I watch because it's the best game in town.

Sorry, maybe I should watch those shows in gyms with 40 people in the crowd. I'm sure they are superior at all aspects of sports entertainment.

Love your opinions bro. But I think you purposely missed Fans point this time.

[drave]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DzltiVDVb5M/maxresdefault.jpg

"Don't get it twisted, I'm not a wrestling fan, I'm a WWE FAN!"

[The CyNick]

Love your opinions bro. But I think you purposely missed Fans point this time.

Thanks.

No I got his point. I have watched other forms of sports entertainment in the past. I only stick to watching WWE because they are far and away the best in the genre. I've never seen another promotion do sports entertainment better than WWE. so generally speaking, I don't think much can be learned from the other groups.

[Mr. Nerfect]

And that explains why you're such a vapid cunt.

"You see there are other ways to make soft drink..."

"BUT IT'S NOT COKE!"

"For what you're looking for, you might need this sort of shoe..."

"BUT IT'S NOT NIKE!"

"For a chilled out get together? You might want to play this sort of music..."

"IT'S NOT ON THE TOP OF THE CHARTS!"

"Hey dude, have you seen this movie..."

"IT'S NOT DIRECTED BY MICHAEL BAY!"

If you're not trolling, I feel sorry for you, because not only would that make you ignorant, but boring as well. Honestly, dude, get a little flavor in your life. Try new things and accept that the most successful thing isn't always the best.

[The CyNick]

My apologies for not being hipster enough for you Noid. Nothing funnier than someone getting angry at someone because they don't hate something. I forgot this is the group of fans who get together to talk about how much everything sucks.

Of course there are millions of different ways to do things, but the successful ways stand the test of time. Coke in soft drinks, Nike in shoes, WWE in sports entertainment. The IWC tries to pretend they know how to do sports entertainment better than the guy who had been dominating the industry for 30 years plus.

[Big Vic]

The IWC tries to pretend they know how to do sports entertainment better than the guy who had been dominating the industry for 30 years plus.
It's funny, the CEO of BlockBuster said something similar about netflix users.

[The CyNick]

It's funny, the CEO of BlockBuster said something similar about netflix users.

So which indy group is netflix?

[Mr. Nerfect]

My apologies for not being hipster enough for you Noid. Nothing funnier than someone getting angry at someone because they don't hate something. I forgot this is the group of fans who get together to talk about how much everything sucks.

Of course there are millions of different ways to do things, but the successful ways stand the test of time. Coke in soft drinks, Nike in shoes, WWE in sports entertainment. The IWC tries to pretend they know how to do sports entertainment better than the guy who had been dominating the industry for 30 years plus.

No, not hipster. It's not one or the other. Who is getting angry at you for not hating something? You don't have to hate the WWE to see merit in other products, fool. You are terrible at constructing arguments.

I was the guy around these parts for YEARS who tried to look at the glass half-full. You get exhausted, man. You get exhausted and you cannot deny that it sucks anymore.

How dare people identify what entertains them and what bores them? How hilarious those fools. Next I bet they'll choose what sort of music to listen to and what sort of movies to watch. HA! We all know there is only one answer.

Of course the IWC doesn't have the full scope of business operations in WWE. No one really claims to have that. But we can certainly express our opinions as fans, and as people who know what we like to see from our forms of entertainment. And you know what? A lot of what I read on the internet would be preferable to what you often get from WWE. Not all of it, but a lot. This idea that there is only one person with the golden goose of ideas when it comes to "sports entertainment" is ridiculous, and even more so when you extent it to professional wrestling.

[Fignuts]

I watch because it's the best game in town.

Sorry, maybe I should watch those shows in gyms with 40 people in the crowd.

What does that have to do with anything? Obviously WWE's presentation is superior, but that's meaningless compared to the core elements like writing, booking, and talent. Three things a small indy company can pull off just as well as WWE with the right people involved.

I suppose you only watch the NFL because they have a dancing CG robot in between plays.

[DAMN iNATOR]

TBF, the NFL on FOX dancing Robot is fucking awesome.

[Anybody Thrilla]

I can just picture Sheamus on the Raw after Survivor Series standing there with the title, and he will without question say something like "WHO LOOKS STUPID NOW???"

:cool:

[DAMN iNATOR]

TBF, though, he does still look stupid, title or no title.

[Ruien]

What does TBF mean?

[Anybody Thrilla]

To be fair

[The CyNick]

What does that have to do with anything? Obviously WWE's presentation is superior, but that's meaningless compared to the core elements like writing, booking, and talent. Three things a small indy company can pull off just as well as WWE with the right people involved.

I suppose you only watch the NFL because they have a dancing CG robot in between plays.

Possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read on the Internet.

If other companies were superior in booking and character development to WWE they would be more successful than WWE. the market determines who is the best.

[Maluco]

It really doesn't anymore. The WWE brand far outweighs anything else that happens and they have been coasting on it for years. The lack of competition simply means that enough effort isn't being put in.

I too watch WWE because it is the best game in town, it is established and it is the big league, but that doesn't automatically mean that it is always entertaining, and right now, it just isn't.

That tournament could not have been any more uneventful and boring and it was on one of their biggest shows of the year.

[Shadrick]

Possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read on the Internet.

If other companies were superior in booking and character development to WWE they would be more successful than WWE. the market determines who is the best.

I think the last two sentences contradict themselves.

[The CyNick]

It really doesn't anymore. The WWE brand far outweighs anything else that happens and they have been coasting on it for years. The lack of competition simply means that enough effort isn't being put in.

I too watch WWE because it is the best game in town, it is established and it is the big league, but that doesn't automatically mean that it is always entertaining, and right now, it just isn't.

That tournament could not have been any more uneventful and boring and it was on one of their biggest shows of the year.

If something else was more entertaining, people would watch. Fact is nothing else is as good as WWE. No doubt it would be difficult for an upstart group to get on WWEs level, but if there was another group that was doing it better, they would eventually overtake WWE.

I never said it's always entertaining. RAW is 3 hours, not every minute is riveting. For me is far more good than bad, hence the reason I watch week in and week out. If I didn't like it and still watched every week, I would be a moron.

[The CyNick]

I think the last two sentences contradict themselves.

Explain

[Ultra Mantis]

The entertainment industry, which WWE regards itself to be in, does not generally equate the most popular to being the "best". For examples of this in real life, feel free to read this Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_DiCaprio

The "best", being a subjective term and "most successful" only correlate in competitive business where the only factor is sales. Is business entertaining? Trends point to no, as shown by this totally relevant graph.

http://www.mathresources.com/products/insidemath/figures/scatpl03.png

You are arguing that WWE does the best business, which is true, however you are passing this off as proof that WWE is the most entertaining. Numbers are not considered entertainment to most people, with less than 15% of audiences reacting positively to numbers, while in some cases statisticians struggle to figure out of the numbers are being laughed at or laughed with. Is James Cameron's Avatar the most entertaining cinematic release of all time? Is an episode of shoddily acted TV Soap "EastEnders" from 1986 the best thing ever shown on British television? Does having more reputation points than somebody make you an unquestionably better poster? Is the oxygen tastier on the peak of Mount Everest?

[The CyNick]

The entertainment industry, which WWE regards itself to be in, does not generally equate the most popular to being the "best". For examples of this in real life, feel free to read this Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_DiCaprio

The "best", being a subjective term and "most successful" only correlate in competitive business where the only factor is sales. Is business entertaining? Trends point to no, as shown by this totally relevant graph.

http://www.mathresources.com/products/insidemath/figures/scatpl03.png

You are arguing that WWE does the best business, which is true, however you are passing this off as proof that WWE is the most entertaining. Numbers are not considered entertainment to most people, with less than 15% of audiences reacting positively to numbers, while in some cases statisticians struggle to figure out of the numbers are being laughed at or laughed with. Is James Cameron's Avatar the most entertaining cinematic release of all time? Is an episode of shoddily acted TV Soap "EastEnders" from 1986 the best thing ever shown on British television? Does having more reputation points than somebody make you an unquestionably better poster? Is the oxygen tastier on the peak of Mount Everest?

In the case of a movie, I could see your point. However, I don't hold my own opinion above anyone else's. So even though I may not like a particular movie, I feel like if a ton of people went to see it, they must have done something right.

Better comparison would be a popular TV show. I watched The Big Bang Theory for 5 minutes one time and thought it was God awful. So I never watched it again. A lot of people do watch it though, week after week. So it must carry some appeal to the general masses. In that case, I kinda toss out my own opinion as irrelevant if so many people like the show.

With sports entertainment, I just don't see how the argument can be made that any other group is close. Sure, some other groups might do some interesting things, but if they were so great, other people would notice, and keep watching. Lots of companies have had the same opportunity WWE did, but they all were less successful. The collective masses must see those products as inferior, otherwise you would see growth, but you don't.

[Fignuts]

Possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read on the Internet.

If other companies were superior in booking and character development to WWE they would be more successful than WWE. the market determines who is the best.

You're right . I don't know what I was thinking.

Well, see you later guys. I'm off to McDonalds to get the best burger in the world.

[The CyNick]

You're right . I don't know what I was thinking.

Well, see you later guys. I'm off to McDonalds to get the best burger in the world.

Bang for your buck, society says it is

[Fignuts]

Wow

[Fignuts]

The Cynick, ladies and gentlemen.

[The CyNick]

So which organization is currently the best at sports entertainment?

[Ultra Mantis]

In the case of a movie, I could see your point. However, I don't hold my own opinion above anyone else's. So even though I may not like a particular movie, I feel like if a ton of people went to see it, they must have done something right.

Better comparison would be a popular TV show. I watched The Big Bang Theory for 5 minutes one time and thought it was God awful. So I never watched it again. A lot of people do watch it though, week after week. So it must carry some appeal to the general masses. In that case, I kinda toss out my own opinion as irrelevant if so many people like the show.

With sports entertainment, I just don't see how the argument can be made that any other group is close. Sure, some other groups might do some interesting things, but if they were so great, other people would notice, and keep watching. Lots of companies have had the same opportunity WWE did, but they all were less successful. The collective masses must see those products as inferior, otherwise you would see growth, but you don't.

WWE is a multi-million dollar publically traded company with decades of brand recognition and it's only big competition throughout the years shot itself in the head. They are the field leader by default and wrestling is not hot enough for anyone with any sense, either as a promoter or TV executive, to put any serious money into building a competitor. At this point it's like expecting a new brand of cola to come out and challenge the supremacy of Coca Cola and Pepsi, no matter how good it might taste, it's not going to sway a vast majority of those people who have been drinking Coke and Pepsi their entire lives.

Nobody is denying WWE is the business leader, but does that automatically make them the "best"? You even said yourself you don't watch anything else in the genre so how is it possible for you to even form that opinion? WWE is the "best" wrestling you know because WWE is the only wrestling you know and you seem unwilling to even give anything else a shot.

[The CyNick]

WWE is a multi-million dollar publically traded company with decades of brand recognition and it's only big competition throughout the years shot itself in the head. They are the field leader by default and wrestling is not hot enough for anyone with any sense, either as a promoter or TV executive, to put any serious money into building a competitor. At this point it's like expecting a new brand of cola to come out and challenge the supremacy of Coca Cola and Pepsi, no matter how good it might taste, it's not going to sway a vast majority of those people who have been drinking Coke and Pepsi their entire lives.

Nobody is denying WWE is the business leader, but does that automatically make them the "best"? You even said yourself you don't watch anything else in the genre so how is it possible for you to even form that opinion? WWE is the "best" wrestling you know because WWE is the only wrestling you know and you seem unwilling to even give anything else a shot.

The drink thing is totally inaccurate. New players in industries show up all the time. The failures fail, and the good ones succeed and survive. Monster energy drinks come to mind as a brand that came into a crowded space and made noise.

I have watched other groups in the past. I watched WCW and always feltv they were inferior to WWE, even in the heyday of the NWO. i tried TNA, but they were low rent. ROH is a clusterf. Japanese wrestling is impossible to watch.

But how far do I take it? Should I watch some kid's backyard fed because it 'might' be good? My feeling is talent rises to the top. If these groups were worth investing time in, they would gain popularity, and get on my radar. But none ever have.

I don't begrudge someone for enjoying those products, I just don't want to be one of those people sitting around watching something and saying I hate this week after week.

[Maluco]

If something else was more entertaining, people would watch. Fact is nothing else is as good as WWE. No doubt it would be difficult for an upstart group to get on WWEs level, but if there was another group that was doing it better, they would eventually overtake WWE.

I never said it's always entertaining. RAW is 3 hours, not every minute is riveting. For me is far more good than bad, hence the reason I watch week in and week out. If I didn't like it and still watched every week, I would be a moron.

I actually get where you are coming from and find your point of view really interesting, but I think the only thing you don't get is that people watch because they WANT it to be better.

It is possible to love wrestling and love WWE and not like the current product. It is like a sports team, I don't stop supporting them because they are sucking.

It's not the exact same thing, but there is a parallel there. I don't want to watch 30 guys huddled round in a gym either, so I want to watch the big company, the one with all the know how, production, its own network etc... the one which has been so good in the past. I want them to be better, so I can enjoy it again like I have done in the past for so many years.

[Simple Fan]

I have watched other groups in the past. I watched WCW and always feltv they were inferior to WWE, even in the heyday of the NWO. i tried TNA, but they were low rent. ROH is a clusterf. Japanese wrestling is impossible to watch.

Please explain what makes ROH a clusterfuck because I don't see it. ROH spaces out their talent and never over expoeses anyone. They are booked great and have a great roster. As for Japan, NJPW is white hot right now and is very entertaining, what's impossible to watch about it? Lucha Underground is great as well you should check out their 2nd season.

[Ultra Mantis]

The drink thing is totally inaccurate. New players in industries show up all the time. The failures fail, and the good ones succeed and survive. Monster energy drinks come to mind as a brand that came into a crowded space and made noise.

I have watched other groups in the past. I watched WCW and always feltv they were inferior to WWE, even in the heyday of the NWO. i tried TNA, but they were low rent. ROH is a clusterf. Japanese wrestling is impossible to watch.

But how far do I take it? Should I watch some kid's backyard fed because it 'might' be good? My feeling is talent rises to the top. If these groups were worth investing time in, they would gain popularity, and get on my radar. But none ever have.

I don't begrudge someone for enjoying those products, I just don't want to be one of those people sitting around watching something and saying I hate this week after week.

Monster Energy drink is not cola. If you want to cast the net so wide on that example, do you feel that WWE the best general entertainment show? Because there are new shows of all different genres cropping up and surpassing WWE in terms of success and entertainment value.

Those exact reasons you cite for sticking with WWE are true for those exact same people who complain that the product sucks, they've tried looking elsewhere for their wrestling fix and in their eyes nothing is up to scratch. WWE is the brand they used to like, so they hold on to the hope that this week things will be better. It's human nature.

[Stickman]

I watched probably a total of 1 hour of ROH, it was pretty awful. To say he wwe isnt the best is rediculous. Unless Japanese or Mexican wrestling is your thing, you cannot possibly think WWE is not where the best go. Saying some indy fed is the best is like saying some AAA baseball team is the best team in the world.

WWE has a lot of shitty qualities but it is still miles above the rest.

[Big Vic]

WWE just has the stars if you switched the WWE stars with the ROH stars would you still watch WWE or ROH?

[Stickman]

all the stars are in the E so it's a moot point. The E without the stars is not the E

[Big Vic]

WWE would have the same writers.

[#1-norm-fan]

If you switched out WWE's writing with pretty much any wrestling company's writing, WWE improves dramatically while the other company goes out of business almost immediately.

WWE has been resting on its reputation while slowly dragging wrestling down with it over the past 15 years. It's not like they took WCW's audience and continued to bring wrestling fans in. Less people care about wrestling now. Maybe than ever before. Which makes it nearly impossible for a new company to find success.

Meanwhile WWE has been able to get by appealing to kids who watch for violence, big explosions and bright lights. Who needs coherent writing?

[#1-norm-fan]

Though as the ratings start to reach lolTNA peak levels, one can only hope that they might realize that actually trying from a writing standpoint won't alienate 9 year olds and might even draw in tons of new fans who prefer shit that doesn't come off as phoned in every week.

[DAMN iNATOR]

Though as the ratings start to reach lolTNA peak levels, one can only hope that they might realize that actually trying from a writing standpoint won't alienate 9 year olds and might even draw in tons of new fans who prefer shit that doesn't come off as phoned in every week.

http://i.imgur.com/LkW21Uk.gif

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ultra Mantis and #1-wwf-fan just killed Great posts there. :y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

Explain

You said that if a company with better booking came along, the WWE would be replaced. Then you stated that the market dictates success. I think Shadrick's point is that there is a dichotomy between your product-based view and your market-based one.

Does a movie studio decide which movies get a wide release and huge promotional campaign, or does the independent film director?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Even if the WWE aimed its product at children, it still shows an inability to understand what really appeals to that younger demographic. Vince has also gone on record with statements that prove he doesn't understand the new "millennial" generation. He can't actually grasp that the stereotypes he believes about them are contradicted by actual evidence and such. The WWE is taking aim at groups it doesn't have a handle on.

[The CyNick]

You said that if a company with better booking came along, the WWE would be replaced. Then you stated that the market dictates success. I think Shadrick's point is that there is a dichotomy between your product-based view and your market-based one.

Does a movie studio decide which movies get a wide release and huge promotional campaign, or does the independent film director?

If the Independent film director makes an epic film, it will get noticed. The Director will be green lighted to make future films for larger studios. The market will dictate if that Director is really any good.

Take a group like ROH. I believe they have some type of TV clearance. If they were doing really well, a bigger station would pick them up, or the existing network would give them a better TV slot. Eventually they would grow and grow. WCW has been gone since 2001, and in reality no other group has really made any noise. Maybe you could argue TNA to a small degree, but they are hanging on by a thread and if not for a company with deep pockets, they would have been done long ago. Nobody other than Vince can figure out the formula to make this thing work.

[The CyNick]

Even if the WWE aimed its product at children, it still shows an inability to understand what really appeals to that younger demographic. Vince has also gone on record with statements that prove he doesn't understand the new "millennial" generation. He can't actually grasp that the stereotypes he believes about them are contradicted by actual evidence and such. The WWE is taking aim at groups it doesn't have a handle on.

Youre mixing things up. He doesnt understand the millenial's lack of drive

He understands how to market and appeal to them as evidence by having a top 5 VOD product. Thats where the young people are. He gets that.

[Simple Fan]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRH9JEmny9RZ8_erpeNGSWCVntsi__abZ6ahp34iwTZi_GQcS0

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

http://www.plagueofthemullet.com/images/football-mullet.jpg

[Simple Fan]

I watched probably a total of 1 hour of ROH, it was pretty awful. To say wwe isnt the best is rediculous. Unless Japanese or Mexican wrestling is your thing, you cannot possibly think WWE is not where the best go. Saying some indy fed is the best is like saying some AAA baseball team is the best team in the world.

WWE has a lot of shitty qualities but it is still miles above the rest.

What was awful about it? I watch ROH every week and its my favorite wrestling show. They are booked great in my opinion and have an amazing roster. Its not presented in front of 15,000 fans but its still a grest hour of wrestling. Im not calling ROH the best but I do find their hour show more entertaining than WWEs current product. But I watch as many promotions as I can and enjoy most of them.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I catch some ROH here and there. I hate myself for saying this, but I actually find a bunch of the work to kind of be sloppy. Like it just doesn't flow. But maybe that's just cuz it's more about the moves than telling a fluid story. Mind you I've only seen a small sample size.

[Simple Fan]

I get that, a lot of their matches are fast paced and can be hard to keep up with. I enjoy it because its something different. The faster pace leads to some sloppiness but a lot of times I find my self amazed at how they pull some of it off so fast.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I think a lot of the time the wrestlers don't seem to be able to keep up with it. I love fast paced stuff too, but to me it just seems like a bunch of stuff happening with no rhyme or reason.

(Not arguing with you by any means I see where you're coming from, just further articulating my point).

[Simple Fan]

Oh I know, unlike CyNick I can understand how some people might not enjoy the same thing as me.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Is BJ Whitmer considered to be good?

[Simple Fan]

I find BJ good at what he's doing at the moment. Liked what they were doing with the decade before Jimmy Jacobs left for WWE creative. Now he and Adam Page have taken Steve Corinos son Colby on as a young boy and was supposed to have a match with Steve at final battle but Steve said he was retiring from in ring action due to needing neck surgery. Could turn into BJ vs Nigel I think.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I just find him to be really disjointed in the ring. The little I've seen though. Is there a match you could link me to that would show me "vintage" Whitmer?

[Stickman]

Gorgeous Dave had very valid points about the wrestling of ROH. I hate smaller rings too, always have.

[Simple Fan]

Not really, he hasn't worked a match on ROH TV in a while, and I couldn't tell you that his in ring work is any thing great. He's best at being the mentor type to younger guys now. Whitmer is usually a promo spot on TV and works a lot of tag matches now, is rarely in the main event.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Youre mixing things up. He doesnt understand the millenial's lack of drive

He understands how to market and appeal to them as evidence by having a top 5 VOD product. Thats where the young people are. He gets that.

Except the "lack of drive" thing is an incorrect perception -- one held by an out of touch old man.

[The CyNick]

Except the "lack of drive" thing is an incorrect perception -- one held by an out of touch old man.

Its not though. I see it from people of the age where I work. There's a sense of expecting to be told how to do things, and taking the safe route.

I would take Vince's word. He works with these people day in and day out, and would have past generations to compare to.

But I know, I know, you read somewhere that he's out of touch, so you ahve to repeat it. Its cool.

[KIRA]

Wow they are really gonna try the exact same storyline they had with Bryan to get Roman over?(they don't even hide the fact that it's the same) This has failure written all over for a lot of reasons.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Can't wait to see Reigns pin Lesnar clean in the middle of the ring at WrestleMania 32 and for 100,000 people to boo the shit out of it as the announcers go on about Roman overcoming adversity.</font>

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>Can't wait to see Reigns pin Lesnar clean in the middle of the ring at WrestleMania 32 and for 100,000 people to boo the shit out of it as the announcers go on about Roman overcoming adversity.</font>

What if that happens but he's selling more tshirts than anyone but Cena and the bad reaction is only in certain cities?

[Big Vic]

It will still be awful?

[The CyNick]

Oh I know, unlike CyNick I can understand how some people might not enjoy the same thing as me.

That's so funny to me.

I've never once told people they should like the current product. On the other hand I've had people insult me for saying Im enjoying the current product.

[The CyNick]

It will still be awful?

Maybe to you. But maybe the kid in Des Moines who owns two Roman Reigns tshirts, all his actin figures, and drags his Dad to every show in Iowa, disagrees.

[Damian Rey]

Except that Reigns is regularly getting booed or al best cases lukewarm crowd reactions everywhere they tour. Maybe it turns around but it's been a year now and the crowds don't seem to be buying it.

[Evil Vito]

Except that Reigns is regularly getting booed or al best cases lukewarm crowd reactions everywhere they tour. Maybe it turns around but it's been a year now and the crowds don't seem to be buying it.

<font color=goldenrod>The crowd isn't buying into Reigns because everything with him has felt forced. Many of the fans who were kids when Cena started getting pushed to the moon and who were his target audience are now old enough to realize what had happened and so they're naturally inclined to boo Reigns simply because he's the guy WWE want them to cheer.

But it really doesn't matter who the adults in the crowd want to see. If Reigns gets over with the kids, that's all WWE really cares about at the end of the day. It just remains to be seen if Reigns will have the kids wrapped around his finger as long as Cena since Reigns doesn't have half the personality that Cena had.</font>

[Big Vic]

I have stopped watching because I can not take another 14 years of Cena Lite v2.0

[The CyNick]

Except that Reigns is regularly getting booed or al best cases lukewarm crowd reactions everywhere they tour. Maybe it turns around but it's been a year now and the crowds don't seem to be buying it.

To be fair to Reigns, he hasn't been the focal point of TV since Mania. Was only in the build to Survivor Series that they really put the spotlight on him.

WWE isn't interested in having a cold champion, so they are trying to put obstacles in front of him so fans get behind the chase. We'll see how it works. I know Hunter said in an interview before Mania last year that some crowds would boo Roman, but in other towns he was the most over guy.

Who knows what will happen, but I could see him becoming similar to Cena, where the smarks boo him, but the women and kids cheer him. Either way its an important few months for him. When Rollins comes back, I think that might give them an opportunity to turn Roman if it's needed.

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>
But it really doesn't matter who the adults in the crowd want to see. If Reigns gets over with the kids, that's all WWE really cares about at the end of the day. It just remains to be seen if Reigns will have the kids wrapped around his finger as long as Cena since Reigns doesn't have half the personality that Cena had.</font>

I agree with this

[Big Vic]

If he is selling t-shirts I don't think they will turn him.

[The CyNick]

If he is selling t-shirts I don't think they will turn him.

No, of course not. I was working off the premise that he didn't get over as a face

[XL]

He's probably as over as he's going to get. Kids love him, he moves merch, however the adult crowd aren't buying it, and going the "overcoming obstacles" route won't convince that potion of the audience to get on board; you can't sell that story with Roman the same way they could with Bryan.

[The CyNick]

Which to me is fine.

If I were WWE I would go out of my way to make Reigns unappealing to adults, but book him like a superhero for the kids.

[Simple Fan]

So you would make someone unappealing on purpose?

[#1-norm-fan]

Why would you go out of your way to make any character on your show unappealing to any demographic? And why would you go out of your way to not let your top face get massive pops across the board and actually draw people over the age of 12 to watch the show? Seriously?

[#1-norm-fan]

Pretty sure CyNick just set the wheels in motion for an addition to his gimmick where, instead of going through the trouble of rationalizing, he can just say "WWE is intentionally trying to do things that don't appeal to people. It's actually a genius tactic. You just don't get it."

[Big Vic]

Which to me is fine.

If I were WWE I would go out of my way to make Reigns unappealing to adults, but book him like a superhero for the kids.
:lol::lol::|:|:lol::lol:

[Damian Rey]

As opposed to guys like Ambrose who gets the majority of the audience, age need not apply, to pop? What sense does that make?

[KIRA]

Roman Reigns is Batista
Roman Reigns is Bobby Lashley
For fucks sake,Roman Reigns is Crimson from TNA

You can switch any of these dudes out they are so interchangeable

Nothing sticks out about Roman those guys I listed are pretty much the same as him

#giveambrosetheball

[KIRA]

As opposed to guys like Ambrose who gets the majority of the audience, age need not apply, to pop? What sense does that make?

Thank You!

[Mr. Nerfect]

Its not though. I see it from people of the age where I work. There's a sense of expecting to be told how to do things, and taking the safe route.

I would take Vince's word. He works with these people day in and day out, and would have past generations to compare to.

But I know, I know, you read somewhere that he's out of touch, so you ahve to repeat it. Its cool.

No, people have actually researched it. You can have your own opinion, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[Mr. Nerfect]

What if that happens but he's selling more tshirts than anyone but Cena and the bad reaction is only in certain cities?

When those cities are in the biggest markets you can run, and the WWE's attendance is drying up in places like Des Moines, it does become a problem.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I have stopped watching because I can not take another 14 years of Cena Lite v2.0

Here, here. And that's a big source of the Roman Reigns backlash. It's not even that people don't like Reigns -- they can just feel another decade of an ice-cream that's not their flavor.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I would make Roman Reigns appealing to grandmothers. If you get the grandmas, you get the kids. They've got all that disposable income and need something to fill their time since they don't have work or mortgages. And when these kids grow up with Roman Reigns because of their grandmothers, they're ostensibly going to be WWE fans in another ten years or so.

[Maluco]

Roman Reigns is Batista
Roman Reigns is Bobby Lashley
For fucks sake,Roman Reigns is Crimson from TNA

You can switch any of these dudes out they are so interchangeable

Nothing sticks out about Roman those guys I listed are pretty much the same as him

#giveambrosetheball

Think this is a massive disservice to big Dave. He was massively over when he turned, had a fantastic presence, a whole bunch of natural charisma and had some great matches too. He was oversaturated in the end, but he was clearly in a different league to Reigns.

Agree with the other three though, Reigns is dull and tbh, comes of as cocky and arrogant with his looks and posturing on TV. That's why I thought the heel turn would have suited him. He had a reason (crowds reaction) and his mannerisms lend more to it.

[KIRA]

Think this is a massive disservice to big Dave. He was massively over when he turned, had a fantastic presence, a whole bunch of natural charisma and had some great matches too. He was oversaturated in the end, but he was clearly in a different league to Reigns.

Agree with the other three though, Reigns is dull and tbh, comes of as cocky and arrogant with his looks and posturing on TV. That's why I thought the heel turn would have suited him. He had a reason (crowds reaction) and his mannerisms lend more to it.

TBH I loved cocky dressed like a douche Batista. with him I meant more in-ring style than personality.

[Damian Rey]

Heel Batista was amazing. Ripping on fat girls and geeks was a money promo for him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Heel Batista vs. Face Brock is a money match.

[Mr. Nerfect]

If Roman Reigns beats Sheamus at TLC, I hope Batista beats him for the World Title and then defends it against Brock at Mania. Reigns can then face Triple H.

[The CyNick]

No, people have actually researched it. You can have your own opinion, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

People have researched that Vince is out of touch or that millenials in WWE don't have the drive of past generations?

Do you have a link to these studies?

[The CyNick]

When those cities are in the biggest markets you can run, and the WWE's attendance is drying up in places like Des Moines, it does become a problem.

No doubt. But WWE is close to all that data.

If they didn't think Reigns could move merchandise and sell tickets, they wouldn't push him.

We're back to this false narrative that Vince likes to lose money. Or that outsiders know more about his numbers than he does.

[Big Vic]

I think its a bit of both.

[Shadrick]

No doubt. But WWE is close to all that data.

If they didn't think Reigns could move merchandise and sell tickets, they wouldn't push him.

We're back to this false narrative that Vince likes to lose money. Or that outsiders know more about his numbers than he does.

A method that's worked in the past doesn't mean it will continue to work. Also, It's possible to be too close to something.

[The CyNick]

Here, here. And that's a big source of the Roman Reigns backlash. It's not even that people don't like Reigns -- they can just feel another decade of an ice-cream that's not their flavor.

On the Stone Cold podcast Triple H talked about how certain fans automatically reject a guy when they sense the company is behind them. Reigns is an interesting study of this mentality. If you watched him in his Shield days, he was the most over guy in the group. But when they split and WWE was clearly positioning him at the top of the card, some of the fans rejected it. But he's the same guy, the fans just turned on him seemingly for no reason. Almost like they think they are being cool by rejecting the guy WWE has chosen to push.

Clearly not all fans dislike Reigns. You can see little kids in the arenas cheering for him, and recent live reports indicate he's the most over guy with Cena gone.

Its this thing where the loud minority of the crowd wants to feel like they are going against the grain. Like a child throwing a temper tantrum, you just gotta let them get it out of their system, and book what you feel is right in the long run.

[The CyNick]

A method that's worked in the past doesn't mean it will continue to work. Also, It's possible to be too close to something.

Not when it comes to data.

We don't see official reports about things like merchandise sales. You get speculation and half stories from our "reporter" community, but it's never full data. If Roman is moving merch, that's a good indication fans are getting behind him.

Another thing is pops at live events. If he's getting the biggest reaction, that should tell you something as well. Obviously ticket sales where Roman was advertised as the headliner is important.

[The CyNick]

Heel Batista vs. Face Brock is a money match.

I agree with that.

[Big Vic]

On the Stone Cold podcast Triple H talked about how certain fans automatically reject a guy when they sense the company is behind them. Reigns is an interesting study of this mentality. If you watched him in his Shield days, he was the most over guy in the group. But when they split and WWE was clearly positioning him at the top of the card, some of the fans rejected it. But he's the same guy, the fans just turned on him seemingly for no reason. Almost like they think they are being cool by rejecting the guy WWE has chosen to push.
No he's not the same guy, when he was in the shield he was getting the hot tag and not speaking anything longer than a sentence.

Now he's a singles guy who can't cut a promo.

[The CyNick]

No he's not the same guy, when he was in the shield he was getting the hot tag and not speaking anything longer than a sentence.

Now he's a singles guy who can't cut a promo.

He's only recently been speaking a lot. Earlier this year he was mostly just coming out and fighting. With the odd backstage segment with Ambrose.

It's a big transition to go from being a middle of the pack guy to the man. He's going to take time to adapt. I know people in here thought it was a cheesy line, but he got the fans chanting tater tot.

[Big Vic]

It's been 1 and a half years, and he has shown no improvement.

The promo he cut monday night sounded like it was written for John Cena.

[Big Vic]

And the tater tot chant was kinda weak. If these wrestlers weren't so glued to a script, after the weak tater tot chant started Sheamus could have yelled "Stop that! I am not a tater tot!" to get the crowd chanting it louder.

But no wrestlers don't know how to improvise now since everything is written for them.

[The CyNick]

It's been 1 and a half years, and he has shown no improvement.

The promo he cut monday night sounded like it was written for John Cena.

Right or wrong, that's who's boots they want him to fill. So yeah that makes perfect sense.

[The CyNick]

And the tater tot chant was kinda weak. If these wrestlers weren't so glued to a script, after the weak tater tot chant started Sheamus could have yelled "Stop that! I am not a tater tot!" to get the crowd chanting it louder.

But no wrestlers don't know how to improvise now since everything is written for them.

The crowd WAS into it though.

[Big Vic]

Not from what I watched on youtube, you could hear a pin drop before the light tater tot chants.Right or wrong, that's who's boots they want him to fill. So yeah that makes perfect sense.
It's been 1 and a half years, and he has shown no improvement. It seems like he's not up to par to play the part of Cena

[drave]

Before the main event this past week:

http://i.imgur.com/z3g0Vrsl.jpg

[Maluco]

I think a big part of this argument is being lost to reason. John Cena, although it seems like an eternity ago, was massively over when he turned and started to become the guy. He got over on the basis of his vastly superior mic work as a rapper.

They want Reigns to step up and fill the shoes of someone whose a) pure talent and ability he doesn't have b) without waiting for him to organically get himself over.

It is forced, contrived, and the fans see right through it. 500k fans switching off during the show is 500k fans who would rather watch something else than Roman Reigns in the main event of a show.

TV ratings are still a massive indicator of the product because that is where people who are really into it, will watch it first. He is losing them and is now starting to lose people in the arenas too.

[#1-norm-fan]

Right or wrong, that's who's boots they want him to fill. So yeah that makes perfect sense.

... So since he's being groomed to replace Cena he should be cutting the same promos as Cena? Fuck actually giving a guy a unique personality. WWE logic 101 right there. I wonder if there's a box at the Gorilla position marked "heel promos" and one marked "face promos" and the guys just take a script from the appropriate box 5 minutes before going out.

[Big Vic]

Austin: "TRAIN, SAY YOUR PRAYERS, EAT YOUR VITAMINS! BE TRUE TO YOURSELF<wbr>, TRUE TO YOUR COUNTRY, BE A REAL AMERICAN!"

[Damian Rey]

"AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE, BECAUSE THE STEVESTER SAID SO, BROTHER"

[Big Vic]

I agree with CyNick, Reigns should start rapping.

[The CyNick]

Before the main event this past week:

http://i.imgur.com/z3g0Vrsl.jpg

Mountain out of a moehill

Literally looks like 6 or 7 people in the aisles. Most people still watching.

Dirt sheetz and Internet goons turn it into everyone was leaving.

[The CyNick]

Not from what I watched on youtube, you could hear a pin drop before the light tater tot chants.
It's been 1 and a half years, and he has shown no improvement. It seems like he's not up to par to play the part of Cena

He's been headlining for about 6 weeks and the period between Rumble and Mania in 2015.

[The CyNick]

... So since he's being groomed to replace Cena he should be cutting the same promos as Cena? Fuck actually giving a guy a unique personality. WWE logic 101 right there. I wonder if there's a box at the Gorilla position marked "heel promos" and one marked "face promos" and the guys just take a script from the appropriate box 5 minutes before going out.

Do you think New Day and The Wyatts cut the same promo?

[drave]

Mountain out of a moehill

Literally looks like 6 or 7 people in the aisles. Most people still watching.

Dirt sheetz and Internet goons turn it into everyone was leaving.


Every mountain starts as a molehill. If even 1 "viewer" doesn't stick around for what is supposed to be "the main attraction", that should tell them that it just isn't working. No, it isn't going to appeal to "every single viewer" but the ratings tell the rest of the story.

[#1-norm-fan]

Do you think New Day and The Wyatts cut the same promo?

No. Apparently you think they should though based on that Reigns/Cena comment since it clearly implies that successful characters must all follow the same formula.

A few examples that deviate from that path on a HUGE fucking roster over the years doesn't mean there isn't a norm still. Brock Lesnar wasn't booked as a generic chicken shit heel with a paint-by-numbers personality cutting the same promos as everyone else. 99% of the rest of the heel roster was though.

[Big Vic]

He's been headlining for about 6 weeks and the period between Rumble and Mania in 2015.
He's been a singles wrestler for over a year.

Are you saying he is only supposed to start training on doing good promos when he is a headliner?

[#1-norm-fan]

Also, stop avoiding inconvenient subjects that go against your WWE apologist BS. You hype yourself as someone who uses logic and facts and smugly tell people "You have no argument" but when your back is against the wall, you literally just ignore shit hoping it goes away. Man up or drop the gimmick, SON.

[Big Vic]

Yeah stop acting like a tater tot.

[#1-norm-fan]

Which to me is fine.

If I were WWE I would go out of my way to make Reigns unappealing to adults, but book him like a superhero for the kids.

Why would you go out of your way to make any character on your show unappealing to any demographic? And why would you go out of your way to not let your top face get massive pops across the board and actually draw people over the age of 12 to watch the show? Seriously?

I'm not letting this CyNick gem get lost in the shuffle, by the way.

[The CyNick]

Every mountain starts as a molehill. If even 1 "viewer" doesn't stick around for what is supposed to be "the main attraction", that should tell them that it just isn't working. No, it isn't going to appeal to "every single viewer" but the ratings tell the rest of the story.

If i have an arena with 8k people and 50 leave and 7950 stay, i'm not losing sleep.

[The CyNick]

No. Apparently you think they should though based on that Reigns/Cena comment since it clearly implies that successful characters must all follow the same formula.

A few examples that deviate from that path on a HUGE fucking roster over the years doesn't mean there isn't a norm still. Brock Lesnar wasn't booked as a generic chicken shit heel with a paint-by-numbers personality cutting the same promos as everyone else. 99% of the rest of the heel roster was though.

I didn't say everyone should be booked like Cena. I said it looks like they seem the success with Cena being this dual heel-face and figured let's see if this can work again.

[The CyNick]

He's been a singles wrestler for over a year.

Are you saying he is only supposed to start training on doing good promos when he is a headliner?

Must guys who have headlined say it's a different animal when the company is on your shoulders. Roman wasn't being asked to do 15 minute promos before, so how could he perfect them?

I get it, YOU don't care for him. A lot of people do though. No big deal.

[Big Vic]

Must guys who have headlined say it's a different animal when the company is on your shoulders. Roman wasn't being asked to do 15 minute promos before, so how could he perfect them?

I get it, YOU don't care for him. A lot of people do though. No big deal.
He was cutting 15 minute promos against seth rollins last year, and Orton around SummerSlam 2014, you probably don't remember them because they weren't that good.

Maybe he should go home and practice, or maybe the WWE shouldn't force someone in the main event spot light that can't handle it.

[Big Vic]

I didn't say everyone should be booked like Cena. I said it looks like they seem the success with Cena being this dual heel-face and figured let's see if this can work again.He wasn't talking about him being booked, he was talking about him reading the a script that seems like it was written for Cena.

[The CyNick]

Also, stop avoiding inconvenient subjects that go against your WWE apologist BS. You hype yourself as someone who uses logic and facts and smugly tell people "You have no argument" but when your back is against the wall, you literally just ignore shit hoping it goes away. Man up or drop the gimmick, SON.

Ive said this before, but I feel like I respond too much to people.

Lol man I love this perception -"you hype yourself up". Who do I hype myself to? Is it true that I know I'm on point 99.9% off the time? Yes. But I just post on here. If that's hyping myself, cool.

[The CyNick]

He wasn't talking about him being booked, he was talking about him reading the a script that seems like it was written for Cena.

Fine if that style of writing worked for Cena promos, why not try it with Roman?

[The CyNick]

I'm not letting this CyNick gem get lost in the shuffle, by the way.

My Grandfather is over 90 years old. We don't have the same interests. My wife is nearly 10 years younger than me, she likes a lot of things I don't care for. My buddy has a 6 year old, who is into completely different things.

When you have a fanbase as diverse and widespread as WWE, it's unlikely everyone will like the same things. Of course it's great if Roman can get over with everyone. But I would be happy if they were able to replace Cena with him as the hero to the kids, because I think that audience is more important to success. If that means you have to alienate the adults to get him over with the kids, i'm all for that.

[The CyNick]

He was cutting 15 minute promos against seth rollins last year, and Orton around SummerSlam 2014, you probably don't remember them because they weren't that good.

Maybe he should go home and practice, or maybe the WWE shouldn't force someone in the main event spot light that can't handle it.

Maybe the odd time, but not like now where is week after week.

[The CyNick]

Yeah stop acting like a tater tot.

Stop reading John Cena's scripts. People will tune out of this thread in droves.

[#1-norm-fan]

My Grandfather is over 90 years old. We don't have the same interests. My wife is nearly 10 years younger than me, she likes a lot of things I don't care for. My buddy has a 6 year old, who is into completely different things.

When you have a fanbase as diverse and widespread as WWE, it's unlikely everyone will like the same things. Of course it's great if Roman can get over with everyone. But I would be happy if they were able to replace Cena with him as the hero to the kids, because I think that audience is more important to success. If that means you have to alienate the adults to get him over with the kids, i'm all for that.

You literally said the words "I would go out of my way to make Reigns unappealing to adults".

Not "I would try to make the character appealing to kids (which is REALLY fucking easy) but also actually make him a compelling character that adults can get behind if possible."

But "I would go out of my way to make Reigns unappealing to adults"

Kids will like whatever big superhero babyface they're told to like. It's not fucking rocket science making a wrestler with the right look appeal to kids. And if you actually make the character compelling so that adults can enjoy him too, it's not gonna alienate the kids. Of course that takes decent writing which, as I've explained in-depth in posts that you've dodged, is not WWE's strong suit.

Intentionally making a guy unappealing to a large demographic is not only incredibly easy in this case, it's asinine. You said you WANT a specific demographic turned off of the main portion of your product. Not that you'd just accept it as an unfortunate side effect. You'd GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to make it happen. At the very least I hope you can look back and consider that as part of the .1%, Mr "On point 99.9% of the time". lol

[#1-norm-fan]

Also, send Shadrick a pic.

[Shadrick]

Also, send Shadrick a pic.

he keeps ignoring me. much like he ignores wwe logic that goes against his agenda.

[Ruien]

As much as Cynick is full of shit everyone in here is wrong. Reigns is appealing to a good portion of the audience. But a large chunk of fans dislike him so much they leave early. These fans do not even stick around to tell him he sucks. That is pretty sad.

It will be really hard to find a wrestler everyone can get behind with the type of storytelling that goes on.

[Ultra Mantis]

http://www.profightdb.com/img/wrestlers/thumbs-600/6fffcf6790fandango.jpg

[Theo Dious]

We're back to this false narrative that Vince likes to lose money.

I've been saying it for years about smarks; one moment they believe that Vince cares about nothing but money, he's Scrooge McDuck and nothing is more important to him than his next dollar. The next moment his ego is everything and he'd spend his entire fortune on a good boner. Make up your fucking minds, people.

[The CyNick]

You literally said the words "I would go out of my way to make Reigns unappealing to adults".

Not "I would try to make the character appealing to kids (which is REALLY fucking easy) but also actually make him a compelling character that adults can get behind if possible."

But "I would go out of my way to make Reigns unappealing to adults"

Kids will like whatever big superhero babyface they're told to like. It's not fucking rocket science making a wrestler with the right look appeal to kids. And if you actually make the character compelling so that adults can enjoy him too, it's not gonna alienate the kids. Of course that takes decent writing which, as I've explained in-depth in posts that you've dodged, is not WWE's strong suit.

Intentionally making a guy unappealing to a large demographic is not only incredibly easy in this case, it's asinine. You said you WANT a specific demographic turned off of the main portion of your product. Not that you'd just accept it as an unfortunate side effect. You'd GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to make it happen. At the very least I hope you can look back and consider that as part of the .1%, Mr "On point 99.9% of the time". lol

When I said adults, I meant the people who chant "Cena Sucks". Not literally every person over the age of 18.

Sorry if that wasnt clear.

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah, words and their definitions are important. Apology accepted. Take an English class and come back, SON!

[#1-norm-fan]

But seriously, that definition of "adult" changes nothing. At all. You're still literally saying WWE should go out of their way to alienate a certain demographic and that's still REALLY fucking dumb.

[#1-norm-fan]

http://www.profightdb.com/img/wrestlers/thumbs-600/6fffcf6790fandango.jpg

When you can't find a way to make Johnny fucking Curtis a star, you're just hopeless. Seriously. The guy has everything. EVERYTHING.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

He was a star then he got a concussion. Momentum dead.

[The CyNick]

But seriously, that definition of "adult" changes nothing. At all. You're still literally saying WWE should go out of their way to alienate a certain demographic and that's still REALLY fucking dumb.

I disagree. My thinking is don't try to fight the lifelong fans who like to pay for shows month after month, boo the current top guy, and cheer for the new indy hero that had been signed, and do the Fandango dance, and then blog to the guy banging Mick Foley's daughter that everything sucks.

[Big Vic]

My thinking is don't try to fight the lifelong fans...There's a difference between "not fighting" and "going out of your way"....

[#1-norm-fan]

Exactly. Actually putting forth effort to make a character appeal to as many demographics as possible draws in fans. Going out of your way to not do that is fucking dumb. I feel like I'm repeating myself but this point is clearly not getting through.

Like I said when that quote was first made, I'm pretty sure that was CyNick setting the wheels in motion so that whenever WWE fails to produce a face of the company who is universally loved he can say "It's not that they're bad at writing a character that appeals to grown men and women who actually need depth and a story to be entertained. They're INTENTIONALLY making the character unappealing. It's genius. You guys don't get it."

[Innovator]

I miss Fandangirl

[The CyNick]

There's a difference between "not fighting" and "going out of your way"....

Yeah I guess. I just mean I would keep have Reigns cut cheesy promos like Cena does. It wouldnt bother me if that group of the audience rejects him. Obviously its best to have everyone like him, but I dont think thats possible today.

[The CyNick]

Exactly. Actually putting forth effort to make a character appeal to as many demographics as possible draws in fans. Going out of your way to not do that is fucking dumb. I feel like I'm repeating myself but this point is clearly not getting through.

Like I said when that quote was first made, I'm pretty sure that was CyNick setting the wheels in motion so that whenever WWE fails to produce a face of the company who is universally loved he can say "It's not that they're bad at writing a character that appeals to grown men and women who actually need depth and a story to be entertained. They're INTENTIONALLY making the character unappealing. It's genius. You guys don't get it."

I would say its harder now to create a universally liked star than anytime in history. The fans who dont like Reigns I believe will reject anyone who they feel the company is behind.

You have to trick those people into thinking they created the star, like Daniel Bryan.

[#1-norm-fan]

I would say its harder now to create a universally liked star than anytime in history. The fans who dont like Reigns I believe will reject anyone who they feel the company is behind.

Or they're grown adults who enjoy more depth in a TV character than 9 year old kids will settle for. But let's pretend the only people who Roman Reigns doesn't appeal to are marks. That must be why more and more casual fans are swarming to the product on a weekly basis, right? Because Reigns is so appealing to them.

[ron the dial]

Yeah I guess. I just mean I would keep have Reigns cut cheesy promos like Cena does. It wouldnt bother me if that group of the audience rejects him. Obviously its best to have everyone like him, but I dont think thats possible today.

why have roman cut cena promos when it clearly isn't him? did cena get over emulating a predecessor's style? did stone cold? did the rock? did hulk hogan? these guys brought their own unique personality to the table, and that played a huge part in them connecting with the audience. why not allow reigns the same chance instead of forcing him to fill shoes he doesn't have the tools to fill?

[Ultra Mantis]

I would say its harder now to create a universally liked star than anytime in history. The fans who dont like Reigns I believe will reject anyone who they feel the company is behind.

You have to trick those people into thinking they created the star, like Daniel Bryan.

Let's ignore your first sentence because nothing in the history of anything has ever been universally liked.

If the obvious manufactured "stars" are failing then why would you not actually get behind those guys that get over organically? There's a long list of guys WWE could actually push and wouldn't have a backlash over, not even just at the top of the card. Why actively try to cool somebody off by removing them from TV or having them job every week or bury them beyond repair when you can use that positive reaction to improve your overall product top to bottom? They very reluctantly went with Bryan last minute after Punk quit and HHH had nothing to do at Mania, then again went all the way with him when the crowds shit all over Bryan vs HHH being the end game of that years TV while the lukewarm Orton took on a rusty manufactured babyface in Batista. If you want to believe that it was all genius anti booking then fine, but Bryan himself has stated he was going to face Sheamus and ignoring that just makes your counterpoint pure fanaticism.

Kids are the easiest to sell to because they are kids, they haven't fully formed ideas on who has a better workrate or who cuts the best promo or who is the most entertaining, they'll accept whoever is at the top of the card as evidenced by the woeful Roman Reigns selling a lot of merch just because he's being made to look STRONG and constantly telling them "Hey everyone, Roman Reigns is a good wrestler!".

[Simple Fan]

Yeah I guess. I just mean I would keep have Reigns cut cheesy promos like Cena does. It wouldnt bother me if that group of the audience rejects him. Obviously its best to have everyone like him, but I dont think thats possible today.

Its possible and simple but WWE creative is to dumb to figure it out.

[Emperor Smeat]

why have roman cut cena promos when it clearly isn't him? did cena get over emulating a predecessor's style? did stone cold? did the rock? did hulk hogan? these guys brought their own unique personality to the table, and that played a huge part in them connecting with the audience. why not allow reigns the same chance instead of forcing him to fill shoes he doesn't have the tools to fill?

Yeup, biggest mistake the WWE is doing is trying to force Reigns into a Cena 2.0 mold when barely nothing about it made him popular with the fans to begin with.

Reigns biggest weakness, promos, is the same area that is the strongest in the Hogan and Cena style which is why he's struggling a lot to win crowds over. He'd probably be better off using the Goldberg and Austin style that focused more on action and use it as the inspiration for his own mega star style.

Not the first time the WWE has tried to force a big star into a previous mold and saw very little success in the end. Same happened with trying to make Backland into the next Sammartino and New Generation HBK into the next Hogan. Even Diesel failed trying to be a Big Man version of Hogan.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lindsay was wonderful as Fandango's dance partner.

[The CyNick]

Its possible and simple but WWE creative is to dumb to figure it out.

Yeah you're totally right. That's why there are 10 other wrestling promotions who have stars who are bigger than anyone in WWE. Pretty simple.

[Simple Fan]

What do other promotions have to do with anything? Your changing the subject but I am right. Booking Roman isn't hard, but WWE is taking the easy way out and just booking him like Cena. They are actually booking to Romans weaknesses instead of the strengths and that's why people are turning away from him.

[The CyNick]

Yeah he looked pretty cold at TLC and on RAW.

Terrible job by wwe building him up

[DAMN iNATOR]

Yeah he looked pretty cold at TLC and on RAW.

Terrible job by wwe building him up

You think you might have missed just a little bit of time there, slugger? How about you start closer to where the shit hit the fan, like, let's say Royal Rumble (2015). Take us through let's say Survivor Series.

Please explain to all us plebes how forcing a guy like Reigns on the fans starting at Royal Rumble 2015 and not booking him like they have been in the past week and a half or two weeks was such ingenious booking.

[Simple Fan]

I thought it sucked. He attacks HHH for no reason and then goes way to far with Vince to the point where if he's not fired its stupid. Dudes just not ready for the main event. Give him 4 or 5 years and maybe he'll be ready then but I'm just not feeling him right now, everything he says just sounds phony.

[DAMN iNATOR]

LOL, and you just gotta love how CyNick conveniently "left" after my post.

Could it be because he has no good response?

[DAMN iNATOR]

You think you might have missed just a little bit of time there, slugger? How about you start closer to where the shit hit the fan, like, let's say Royal Rumble (2015). Take us through let's say Survivor Series.

Please explain to all us plebes how forcing a guy like Reigns on the fans starting at Royal Rumble 2015 and not booking him like they have been in the past week and a half or two weeks was such ingenious booking.

LOL, and you just gotta love how CyNick conveniently "left" after my post.

Could it be because he has no good response?

CyNick, would you please address my question? :wavesad:

[Damian Rey]

Wasn't there a "we want Cena" chant at tlc? I'm pretty sure the live feed had a fairly stoic crowd. Wasn't till after the match and the next night that the reactions started to change. Which is nice and all, but it doesn't change the last year worth of awfulness they've produced with Reigns at the center.

[The CyNick]

You think you might have missed just a little bit of time there, slugger? How about you start closer to where the shit hit the fan, like, let's say Royal Rumble (2015). Take us through let's say Survivor Series.

Please explain to all us plebes how forcing a guy like Reigns on the fans starting at Royal Rumble 2015 and not booking him like they have been in the past week and a half or two weeks was such ingenious booking.

I don't think he was forced. I think Rumble 15 was an unfortunate set of circumstances and mis step in booking. Reigns was hot in The Shield, and was a logical choice to push. Unfortunately they had Daniel Bryan (injury prone star) who the fans still wanted to see win the Rumble. Credit to WWE for getting him that over. They figured okay if Reigns beats Bryan then people will accept Roman add the new up and coming top face. Crowd didn't go for that so it made Reigns the bad guy to that element of the fanbase.

You still had Rollins out there as the face of The Authority and he had MITB. So whether it was at Mania or shortly thereafter, Rollins was the long term plan as champ. Likely with Reigns chasing to get the title back.

I think they looked at where Reigns was in terms of being over as the up and coming top babyface prior to Mania and decided to pump the breaks but still protect him. So to me the Reigns push was reset post Mania. They purposely kept him out of the storylines with Rollins. They did the build to MITB, which smoothly transitioned to the long program with The Wyatt Family. That was key to make Roman look strong in the ring to set up the showdown with Rollins. I think it was successful given the reactions to the match with Bray at HIAC. Then things got kinda messed up with Rollins getting hurt. But I felt like they really turned the heat up on him by having become the focal point going into Survivor Series and TLC. I felt like they did a good job showing his progression from being Joe Cool to Serious Bad Ass when he had enough of getting screwed by HHH.

To me it was a very well executed slow burn from Mania onwards to get him where he's the most over guy on TV right now.

[The CyNick]

LOL, and you just gotta love how CyNick conveniently "left" after my post.

Could it be because he has no good response?

Sorry bud, I have to earn a living every now and then. Don't be so needy. I'll get to ya.

[Simple Fan]

To me it was a very well executed slow burn from Mania onwards to get him where he's the most over guy on TV right now.

Reigns is not the most over guy on TV right now. Ambrose and Ryback are way more over than he is.

[Damian Rey]

Ambrose is arguably the most universally over talent on the roster.

[KIRA]

Reigns is not the most over guy on TV right now. Ambrose and Ryback are way more over than he is.

Xavier Wood's Trombone is more over than Reigns.

[Shadrick]

cynick how old are u

[Sepholio]

Ambrose is the face of the company. WWE just doesn't acknowledge that because if they did it would seem like they support him and then everyone would start disliking him.

BECAUSE STUFF AND THINGS.

[Ruien]

I don't think he was forced. I think Rumble 15 was an unfortunate set of circumstances and mis step in booking. Reigns was hot in The Shield, and was a logical choice to push. Unfortunately they had Daniel Bryan (injury prone star) who the fans still wanted to see win the Rumble. Credit to WWE for getting him that over. They figured okay if Reigns beats Bryan then people will accept Roman add the new up and coming top face. Crowd didn't go for that so it made Reigns the bad guy to that element of the fanbase.

You still had Rollins out there as the face of The Authority and he had MITB. So whether it was at Mania or shortly thereafter, Rollins was the long term plan as champ. Likely with Reigns chasing to get the title back.

I think they looked at where Reigns was in terms of being over as the up and coming top babyface prior to Mania and decided to pump the breaks but still protect him. So to me the Reigns push was reset post Mania. They purposely kept him out of the storylines with Rollins. They did the build to MITB, which smoothly transitioned to the long program with The Wyatt Family. That was key to make Roman look strong in the ring to set up the showdown with Rollins. I think it was successful given the reactions to the match with Bray at HIAC. Then things got kinda messed up with Rollins getting hurt. But I felt like they really turned the heat up on him by having become the focal point going into Survivor Series and TLC. I felt like they did a good job showing his progression from being Joe Cool to Serious Bad Ass when he had enough of getting screwed by HHH.

To me it was a very well executed slow burn from Mania onwards to get him where he's the most over guy on TV right now.

Ambrose is still more over after not doing shit for months. Ryback was more over until he was forgotten about. The list goes on. Next would be Ziggler.

[Simple Fan]

Hell Sheamus is so over as a heel with his look, Roman Reigns is over because of Sheamus. If Reigns was working with anyone else he wouldn't even be as over as he is now.

[Sepholio]

Ziggler has been super over for years. I know he is injury prone and that is one of the main reasons he doesn't get the super push, but he is there in terms of the pops he gets. He is in a very similar situation as Daniel Bryan in a sense.

[Damian Rey]

Other than his concussion after winning the WHC, has he been injured much since? Feels like he's been a workhouse otherwise.

[James Steele]

He had back-to-back injuries right when they put the belt on him which fucked him over. He's just taken time off to do different projects I thought.