Jump The Shark Moments

[hb2k]

So for this weeks podcast, we are going to be talking about classic "Jump The Shark" moments in wrestling history, and as always, we want your nominations for ones in your own wrestling viewing experience.

The question of course, is what moment was the straw that broke the camel's back that made you either stop watching a certain promotion, stop watching in general for a period of time, or that turned friends of yours off the world of wrestling, and why? Feel free to elaborate.

As always, the best contributions will be read on the show and you'll be credited accordingly. So what moment stands out for you as when a wrestling company jumped the shark?

EDIT - The show discussing Jump The Shark Moments in wrestling history, and your nominations, is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/play/5yzejn/SCGRadio61-JumpTheSharkMoments.mp3

[Shisen Kopf]

When John Tenta literally became The Shark in WCW. He even changed that tattoo on his arm to a shark thinking that gimmick would go places. In hindsight, they should really have called him the Manatee.

[Sixx]

Why don't you try and jump John Tenta, mmm?

[Big Vic]

Rollins constantly losing to Cena and WWE putting Brock in a match with Big Show at MSG instead of anyone else.

[Damian Rey]

The Sting v Hogan Starcade match, particularly the finish. A whole year of Sting not speaking or wresting, finally gets in the ring, for the world title, loses clean. Then Bret Hart comes out for no reason, and inexplicably restarts the match, with Sting suddenly finding his wind and beating Hogan.

It was such a clusterfuck of a finish and poorly booked match that I officially gave up on WCW.

[Tom Guycott]

When every bitch and their brother was nWo. I was a guy who flipped stations during the monday night wars. Then, this got really overdone, and I'd stick with raw and catch/tape the nitro rerun.

When every hardcore match, WWF or WCW, degenerated into "Let us just throw a bunch of bullshit into the ring for no reason/only use one or two of those things, and fight outside the ring for awhile". You could get the "anything goes" vibe across without the stereotypical dumbness of what people *think* a hardcore match was. Became a piss break for me in either promotion.

Fake Razor and Fake Diesel. Might hage worked if they were masked wrestlers and didn't have to promo ever. But this wasn't the case, and just fucking stupid. Stopped watching WWF for a bit on that note.

[Stickman]

Cena wins.

I am completely uninterested in any Cena match because he most likely wins. When he lost to Owens it was great but you knew he'd win the next two.
Bray wyatt vs Cena was a very interesting fued until lol Cena wins.

Over the years it's been the same thing. He only loses to icons like Rock or Lesnar even though he beats them half the time.

I get it, he is the top draw but he buries everybody. It's not like HHH burying everyone becuase he was a heal and the chase was what made it exciting. It's not like Hogan burying everyone because it's every week.

So to me Cena jumped the shark becuase lol Cena wins.

[The CyNick]

Saying Cena buries people shows a lack of understanding.

Mae Young giving birth. Took a fun angle (the absurd idea of mark henry and mae young having an affair) and make it cringeworthy TV.

[Evil Vito]

When every hardcore match, WWF or WCW, degenerated into "Let us just throw a bunch of bullshit into the ring for no reason/only use one or two of those things, and fight outside the ring for awhile". You could get the "anything goes" vibe across without the stereotypical dumbness of what people *think* a hardcore match was. Became a piss break for me in either promotion.

<font color=goldenrod>The hardcore division was one of my favorite things about the Attitude Era, but then again I was a kid at that time and matches like that appealed to me.

As I've gotten older I've realized it was mostly terrible. And while the 24/7 rule allowed for some fun and unique backstage skits, it's impossible to watch any old WWF show from when that rule was effect and actually care about the Hardcore Title match. You knew it would always just devolve into a million run ins and the original champ would most likely end up with the belt after 5 title changes.</font>

[Big Vic]

Saying Cena buries people shows a lack of understanding.
People are tired of Cena winning.

[Tom Guycott]

Cena wins.

I am completely uninterested in any Cena match because he most likely wins. When he lost to Owens it was great but you knew he'd win the next two.
Bray wyatt vs Cena was a very interesting fued until lol Cena wins.

Over the years it's been the same thing. He only loses to icons like Rock or Lesnar even though he beats them half the time.

I get it, he is the top draw but he buries everybody. It's not like HHH burying everyone becuase he was a heal and the chase was what made it exciting. It's not like Hogan burying everyone because it's every week.

So to me Cena jumped the shark becuase lol Cena wins.

http://i.imgur.com/h2S7fFw.gif


Also, let us not forget that he was killed by The Nexus on the floor, then got up at 9 to beat a 10 count, and proceeded to Superman them all to "overcome the odds". That was a bit much, even for Cena.

[Tom Guycott]

<font color=goldenrod>The hardcore division was one of my favorite things about the Attitude Era, but then again I was a kid at that time and matches like that appealed to me.

As I've gotten older I've realized it was mostly terrible. And while the 24/7 rule allowed for some fun and unique backstage skits, it's impossible to watch any old WWF show from when that rule was effect and actually care about the Hardcore Title match. You knew it would always just devolve into a million run ins and the original champ would most likely end up with the belt after 5 title changes.</font>

It started as a noble concept, and was something different. The problem ended up being that that's what everyone "thought" hardcore wrestling epitomized was just aping New Jack's gimmick. It is akin to the whole idea that thinking wrestling fans on the internet today are the small circle of "basement dwelling virgins" from 1995, and not, say, everyone who likes wrestling and has a smartphone in their pocket.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>I feel like the Nexus was the biggest "Jumping the Shark" moment for me in recent history. My interest in general just dropped like a stone by the time that whole debacle of a storyline had finished.

They took one of the most unique, hottest angles they've ever done and then just whiffed on the execution. Most people point to SummerSlam as the point that the angle lost all credibility (and by most accounts - including Cena himself, the Nexus should have gone over). But even in spite of that they still had numerous opportunities to salvage the storyline and botched it on each occasion.

There is no reason whatsoever that Wade Barrett vs. John Cena in a Title vs. Career match could not have ended up being the main event of WrestleMania 27. The outcome may be obvious as all hell, but who cares? It would have been the logical ending after months of a well-built story where Cena has had to act against his will serving Nexus for months. AND if they were dead set on doing Rock/Cena at WM28, you can still quite easily plant those seeds the next night on Raw.

But at least in this scenario you'd have wound up with Barrett as a legitimate, credible main eventer. Instead not a single member of Nexus got anywhere as a result of being in the group, which means it was a fucking waste.</font>

[Mercenary]

http://i.imgur.com/h2S7fFw.gif


Also, let us not forget that he was killed by The Nexus on the floor, then got up at 9 to beat a 10 count, and proceeded to Superman them all to "overcome the odds". That was a bit much, even for Cena.


I was like wtf at that moment

[The CyNick]

People are tired of Cena winning.

Totally understand that point of view.

Saying he buries people shows a lack of understanding of the business.

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>I feel like the Nexus was the biggest "Jumping the Shark" moment for me in recent history. My interest in general just dropped like a stone by the time that whole debacle of a storyline had finished.

They took one of the most unique, hottest angles they've ever done and then just whiffed on the execution. Most people point to SummerSlam as the point that the angle lost all credibility (and by most accounts - including Cena himself, the Nexus should have gone over). But even in spite of that they still had numerous opportunities to salvage the storyline and botched it on each occasion.

There is no reason whatsoever that Wade Barrett vs. John Cena in a Title vs. Career match could not have ended up being the main event of WrestleMania 27. The outcome may be obvious as all hell, but who cares? It would have been the logical ending after months of a well-built story where Cena has had to act against his will serving Nexus for months. AND if they were dead set on doing Rock/Cena at WM28, you can still quite easily plant those seeds the next night on Raw.

But at least in this scenario you'd have wound up with Barrett as a legitimate, credible main eventer. Instead not a single member of Nexus got anywhere as a result of being in the group, which means it was a fucking waste.</font>

I think the mistake they made with that angle was targeting Cena. None of those guys were ready to headline, but they were thrusted in a main event angle because it was against Cena. I think it would have been more effective as an upper mid card angle and let the guys develop from there.

If you compare that to The Shield, which was essentially the same idea (a group of brand new guys), you can see how The Shield was slowly elevated to the main event and it was far more effective. Plus Nexus was such a cluster with like 8 guys or whatever. Nobody could really stand out. Should have been a 4 or 5 person group from jump.

That said, many of those Nexus guys are still around. So in the long run, they were not hurt by what happened with Cena.

The idea that Barrett was ready to take the ball with Cena at WM27 is utterly absurd. The guy isn't even ready to headline NOW and its 5 years later.

[Damian Rey]

How about Bray Wyatt? Far and away one of the creative and interesting characters they've brought up in ages. Completely stands out, cuts excellent promos. Good group built around him.

2013-2014 looked like it could be his year. Defeated Kane in his debut. Took on Daniel Bryan and beat him clean. Went over Reigns in the Shield v Wyatts match, then entered an interesting feud with Cena, only t lose that feud and ever midcard hell since.

He entered a useless feud with Jericho, who hasn't beaten anyone in of note in ages, feuds with Ambrose, who was already going nowhere after being used to elevate Rollins, got fed in an at the time one off with Taker, after carrying the entire build on his own, beat Ryback, which meant nothing, started a feud with Ambrose and Reigns again, only to be used as a feeder system to build Reigns back up. Maybe he's salvaged with the reviewed Undertaker program, but to this point, Bray not being the top heel in the company is ridiculous. He went from being one of, arguably their hottest act, to being a midcard jobber to the stars who loses every big match he's in.

Cena at Mania-lost
Taker at Mania lost
Reigns and Ambrose at Summer Slam-lost
Reigns at HITC lost

[The CyNick]

Funny how having two Mania programs as a heel against Cena and Taker is somehow seen as a burial.

[Simple Fan]

Might as well, Wyatt should be the #1 heel by now. He should have gone over Cena and Taker. Now they are trying to make him relevant by taking Taker and Kanes souls when he should have taken Kanes when he debuted and Takers at Mania after he beat him.

[Bad News Gertner]

When I discovered the IWC and it made me hate wrestling lol

[The CyNick]

Might as well, Wyatt should be the #1 heel by now. He should have gone over Cena and Taker. Now they are trying to make him relevant by taking Taker and Kanes souls when he should have taken Kanes when he debuted and Takers at Mania after he beat him.

So now he's what? The #2 heel? Oh the horror.

Nobody looks at the idea of keeping Bray Wyatt relevant for 15 years instead of 15 months.

[The CyNick]

Except me

[The CyNick]

When I discovered the IWC and it made me hate wrestling lol

Stay off of it and let me know if you enjoy sports entertainment more. I bet you will!

[Theo Dious]

So now he's what? The #2 heel? Oh the horror.

Nobody looks at the idea of keeping Bray Wyatt relevant for 15 years instead of 15 months.

Seriously, if he was being wedged in the top heel spot the cries of "blowing their load with Wyatt!" and "forcing him down our throats! would be deafwning. Wyatt is being slowly tempered in the midcard, and NOT winning all of these feuds will add to his value in the long run. He isn't losing any credibility at all. Want proof? As many losses as he's had, he does one bit with Taker and suddenly the buzz is "TAKER VS WYATT AT SURVIVOR SERIES WHO WILL BE ON TAKER'S TEAM OMG THIS IS AWESOME."
You know who hardly ever got high level wins, let alone clear-cut feud wins? Jakes Roberts. That didn't diminish him at all. (Certain things did but a run of bad Mania matches and feud losses weren't it.)

[Simple Fan]

So now he's what? The #2 heel? Oh the horror.

Nobody looks at the idea of keeping Bray Wyatt relevant for 15 years instead of 15 months.

#2 is a stretch if you ask me. They have presented weak and one of his own stable mates is presented stronger. And as far as being relavant if it wasnt for his promo work he wouldnt even be that.

[The CyNick]

Theo:

Exactly. And he doesn't lose to random guys. He loses the blowoff against guys like Cena and Reigns along with a one off against Taker. I don't think some people understand that's what a good heel does.

At some point Wyatt will have a babyface run. If he's plowed through everyone as a heel, what's the point of doing it again as a face?

I said this once or twice before, but if you read a lot of the stuff on here, nobody in the top half of the card should ever lose a feud. Except Cena. He should lose all of them.

[The CyNick]

#2 is a stretch if you ask me. They have presented weak and one of his own stable mates is presented stronger. And as far as being relavant if it wasnt for his promo work he wouldnt even be that.

He just came off a high profile program with Reigns and now is married to Taker. If he's not number 2 who is? Actually, you're right #2 is a stretch because Rollins is out. He's #1 now.

[Simple Fan]

Seriously, if he was being wedged in the top heel spot the cries of "blowing their load with Wyatt!" and "forcing him down our throats! would be deafwning. Wyatt is being slowly tempered in the midcard, and NOT winning all of these feuds will add to his value in the long run. He isn't losing any credibility at all. Want proof? As many losses as he's had, he does one bit with Taker and suddenly the buzz is "TAKER VS WYATT AT SURVIVOR SERIES WHO WILL BE ON TAKER'S TEAM OMG THIS IS AWESOME."
You know who hardly ever got high level wins, let alone clear-cut feud wins? Jakes Roberts. That didn't diminish him at all. (Certain things did but a run of bad Mania matches and feud losses weren't it.)

Jake also has one of the better winning percentages in history. Wyatt jobs on a regular basis.

[Simple Fan]

He just came off a high profile program with Reigns and now is married to Taker. If he's not number 2 who is? Actually, you're right #2 is a stretch because Rollins is out. He's #1 now.

Should have went over Reigns.

[The CyNick]

Jake also has one of the better winning percentages in history. Wyatt jobs on a regular basis.

Apples and oranges

Everyone had a good winning record on TV because of enhancement matches.

Wyatt to me doesn't lose a ton....waits for the guy who keeps tracks of wins and losses to chime in.

[Corporate CockSnogger]

This just seems like "bookings you didn't agree with" rather than "jump the shark moments"

Mae Young giving birth to a hand, Hornswoggle running through a "tunnel" painted on a wall like a looney toons character, the Eugene character, Robocop helping Sting etc all seem like they would be legit responses to this thread. Embarrassing, cringeworthy moments that are usually tried to be passed as comedy.

[The CyNick]

Should have went over Reigns.

So then people could say Reigns was screwed over by jobbing to Wyatt right before winning the championship. Result would have been this post by someone luke Noid

Reigns: BURIED
WWE Championship: BURIED

[The CyNick]

This just seems like "bookings you didn't agree with" rather than "jump the shark moments"

Mae Young giving birth to a hand, Hornswoggle running through a "tunnel" painted on a wall like a looney toons character, the Eugene character, Robocop helping Sting etc all seem like they would be legit responses to this thread. Embarrassing, cringeworthy moments that are usually tried to be passed as comedy.

Wins the thread

[Evil Vito]

The idea that Barrett was ready to take the ball with Cena at WM27 is utterly absurd. The guy isn't even ready to headline NOW and its 5 years later.

<font color=goldenrod>Oh bullshit. The man could cut a promo like nobody's business from the second he walked into a WWE ring. And in the ring, he was quite good. WWE wouldn't have been throwing him in main events against Cena and Orton for much of fall 2010 if they didn't think he could handle the spot. If WWE wanted to have the big Cena/Barrett blowoff at WrestleMania 27, it could have easily been done and would have been believable. And of course he doesn't seem like he can headline now...because they've given him precisely nothing to work with in that time.

His body betrayed him with injuries on a few occasions but beyond that they've never treated him as anything less than a midcarder. They stuck the KOTR gimmick on him and then immediately had him doing clean jobs to everybody.

But anyway...I don't think there was any way to have Nexus come in and go on a tear WITHOUT getting Cena involved. Why would Cena just sit back and allow a group to come in and destroy Raw without him intervening? The problem I feel was just rushing things too quickly. Once he got "fired" after Survivor Series he was back in a freaking week and single-handedly killed every member of the group in less than a month. And really once he got "fired" they booked themselves into a corner because they were never going to willingly keep him off TV, so they had no choice but to wrap things up quickly.

Instead had they just had Cena bite the bullet and unwittingly help Barrett win the belt over Orton at Survivor Series, they could have put the seeds in motion for the eventual WM 27 match and allowed the angle to work itself out naturally over the coming months. Cena would keep doing Nexus' bidding to the point where his friends (other faces) continually question his integrity, but Cena never goes full heel because you know his job is on the line and that he really has no choice.

Then at the Rumble he can have his proper "screw this Nexus bullshit" moment, and turn on his brethren during the Rumble match itself. Cena wins the thing and Barrett can no longer fire him since the Rumble winner is contractually guaranteed a title match at Mania. Hell during the time between the Rumble and Mania you can end up having Cena destroy the Nexus one by one like Orton wound up doing in the build to his Punk match. At least then it's not rushed and building to a big moment. And then of course Cena gets the win, Barrett is dethroned, and you go from there.

You really think people wouldn't have preferred a long-term, well-built program like that to Cena vs. Miz, which featured Miz being a complete afterthought in the whole build despite being the fucking CHAMPION? I loved the Miz at that time and even I thought that build was completely rotten, and a big part of the reason WM27 was completely forgettable.

Oh and as for the whole "they're still employed so Cena didn't hurt them" bit, that's not the point. It's not that many of them were hurt by being part of Nexus...it's that absolutely any of them could have been debuted at a later date in the gimmicks they're in now and be in the same exact spot. Nobody looks at any of them and says "oh yeah, that guy was a part of the Nexus" because the Nexus angle was a complete flop.</font>

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Little People's Court was atrocious as well.</font>

[Stickman]

Totally forgot about Nexus, probably because lol Cena wins.

[Stickman]

Vince being the higher power and Vince being hornswoggles dad wereprime examples of Vince's character jumping the shark.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Feel like during the Attiitude Era 98% of the time a parent or somebody would come into my room while I was watching wrestling, it would ALWAYS be something raunchy.

I'll never forget my dad trying to do a nice thing and taking me to a house show in early 1999. And he was then mortified by seeing his 10 year old kid participating in "We Want Head!" chants. I thought everybody was just chanting it because we wanted to see Al Snow hit his opponent with the mannequin.</font> :(

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>Oh bullshit. The man could cut a promo like nobody's business from the second he walked into a WWE ring. And in the ring, he was quite good. WWE wouldn't have been throwing him in main events against Cena and Orton for much of fall 2010 if they didn't think he could handle the spot. If WWE wanted to have the big Cena/Barrett blowoff at WrestleMania 27, it could have easily been done and would have been believable. And of course he doesn't seem like he can headline now...because they've given him precisely nothing to work with in that time.

His body betrayed him with injuries on a few occasions but beyond that they've never treated him as anything less than a midcarder. They stuck the KOTR gimmick on him and then immediately had him doing clean jobs to everybody.

But anyway...I don't think there was any way to have Nexus come in and go on a tear WITHOUT getting Cena involved. Why would Cena just sit back and allow a group to come in and destroy Raw without him intervening? The problem I feel was just rushing things too quickly. Once he got "fired" after Survivor Series he was back in a freaking week and single-handedly killed every member of the group in less than a month. And really once he got "fired" they booked themselves into a corner because they were never going to willingly keep him off TV, so they had no choice but to wrap things up quickly.

Instead had they just had Cena bite the bullet and unwittingly help Barrett win the belt over Orton at Survivor Series, they could have put the seeds in motion for the eventual WM 27 match and allowed the angle to work itself out naturally over the coming months. Cena would keep doing Nexus' bidding to the point where his friends (other faces) continually question his integrity, but Cena never goes full heel because you know his job is on the line and that he really has no choice.

Then at the Rumble he can have his proper "screw this Nexus bullshit" moment, and turn on his brethren during the Rumble match itself. Cena wins the thing and Barrett can no longer fire him since the Rumble winner is contractually guaranteed a title match at Mania. Hell during the time between the Rumble and Mania you can end up having Cena destroy the Nexus one by one like Orton wound up doing in the build to his Punk match. At least then it's not rushed and building to a big moment. And then of course Cena gets the win, Barrett is dethroned, and you go from there.

You really think people wouldn't have preferred a long-term, well-built program like that to Cena vs. Miz, which featured Miz being a complete afterthought in the whole build despite being the fucking CHAMPION? I loved the Miz at that time and even I thought that build was completely rotten, and a big part of the reason WM27 was completely forgettable.

Oh and as for the whole "they're still employed so Cena didn't hurt them" bit, that's not the point. It's not that many of them were hurt by being part of Nexus...it's that absolutely any of them could have been debuted at a later date in the gimmicks they're in now and be in the same exact spot. Nobody looks at any of them and says "oh yeah, that guy was a part of the Nexus" because the Nexus angle was a complete flop.</font>

I like the way you laid out the storyline, and I agree the booking painted them in a corner when they fired Cena. The fact is you can't have Cena off TV for extended periods of time, so once they pulled that trigger, Cena had to win. But yeah they could have timed things better.

For me watching as a fan, not someone who is biased towards Barrett, I never felt like he clicked as a top guy. There was something missing in his promos and his work. He always felt like a guy who was being shoved down our throats way before he was ready. It wasn't good enough to be a headliner at Mania. Miz was far superior, even though that angle between Cena and Miz ended up being terrible. However, it was always just meant to be a backdrop to kickoff Cena-Rock, which was obviously wildly successful.

Going back to Barrett. Imagine if Seth Rollins was pushed to main event Mania 6 months after he debuted. He would have failed because he wasn't ready. Barrett did what he could, but it wasn't enough. It's a lot to ask a guy to headline Mania that quickly. A select few could do it, Barrett wasn't one of them. I say this about a number of guys, but even today, watch his work. He's not ready to headline. He belongs exactly where he is.

[Simple Fan]

The idea that Barrett was ready to take the ball with Cena at WM27 is utterly absurd. The guy isn't even ready to headline NOW and its 5 years later.

And Reigns is? Barrett could have headlined Mania 27, won and be a top star right now but he's been up and down the card since then.

[Big Vic]

"Finger Poke of Doom" was the exact minute WCW jumped the shark.

[The CyNick]

And Reigns is? Barrett could have headlined Mania 27, won and be a top star right now but he's been up and down the card since then.

Reigns is more polished in the ring. Plus it's a different thing headlining as a heel vs headlining as a babyface.

[Simple Fan]

Bull shit Reigns is more polished in the ring. Barrett is a better in ring worker than Reigns. Barret doesn't have to rely on moves that are designed to get a pop.

[Emperor Smeat]

No specific moment for WCW but probably somewhere during the time Jeff Jarrett was their top star. Fingerpoke of Doom might have been when I started to watch a lot more WWF than WCW at the time.

For the WWE, Triple H's "Reign of Terror" in general since at the time my college didn't have UPN so I saw very little of the prime Smackdown Six era while RAW was getting really boring during that period.

[Big Vic]

As much as I really hated watching Raw during that era, he really did make Batista off of that.

[The CyNick]

Bull shit Reigns is more polished in the ring. Barrett is a better in ring worker than Reigns. Barret doesn't have to rely on moves that are designed to get a pop.

Lol you JUST described why Barrett isn't ready.

Amazing!

[DAMN iNATOR]

Can't believe nobody's mentioned it yet, but at the end of RAW one night in 2002 or 2003, Triple H showed up and said 2 words: Katie Vick.

Now, the storyline was as atrociously bad as it could be to begin with, but then they showed supposed footage IN A FUNERAL PARLOR with Triple H (in a Kane mask abd red shirt with "BIG FREAK'N MACHINE" on it) having sex with a cheerleader mannequin meant to represent Katie Vick....my poor, poor eyes and ears!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TlpSsklsq2s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[BigDaddyCool]

The Zombie or the Goobily Gooker

[Lock Jaw]

The only time ever rassling has jumped the shark is in WCW with Vince Russo and all the "worked shoots".... especially the Hogan stuff.

There have been a lot of "bad", "cringeworthy" stuff..... but the "worked shoots" and Hogan things weren't just bad, they were "destroying the genre"....

[The Condor]

The moment I gave up was Bad Blood 2003, and I didn't come back until right before Wrestlemania 27. The HHH v. Nash match made me feel embarrassed, to see two guys who couldn't do anything right try every parlor trick they could to make a match look credible. This was in the midst of the vaunted "HHH reign of terror" and the product, on all levels, was just drab, boring and hard to watch. It was difficult to watch RAW and I moved on with my life. I've caught up since then on a lot of stuff, but the WWE has never truly gotten me back. I just feel that everything went to shit after WM 19.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst.

The definition of jumping the shark I believe is where a show never finds its legs after a pinnacle moment/mistake/egregious error in writing (edit) (ie. Fonzy jumping the shark). Sure, there are still good episodes and good writing interspersed amongst the dreck, but realistically all the steam is lost. I would say the Invasion storyline really got the ball rolling, but Wrestlemania X7 was the apex of success for the company, and Austin turning heel symbolizes the compromise of integrity in the product often associated with jumping the shark. I personally though Austin was tremendous as a heel... but Austin hob knobbing with Vince, playing the ukelele with Kurt and generally being a chicken shit went against the attitude which helped the company reach its heights. Turning Austin heel, made him just another wrestler. What made Austin the guy people flocked to was that although he was kind of a bad guy (what with stunning women, drinking on the job, beating up non wrestlers etc.) was that behind all of that, he had a code (ala Omar from the Wire) and that Code was that he was not a fucking sell out. That was the very foundation of what made the WWF at the time. He was a go to hero to a lot of people... yeah, your girlfriend left you, you got fired from your job, you have erectile dysfunctions... but fuck, Stone Cold Steve Austin would die before he sold out to Vince McMahon and became just another wishy washy wrestling character whose allegiances would change on the whimsy of a creative decision.

If the company was willing to compromise the integrity of Stone Cold Steve Austin's character (albeit with his full support), it comes as no surprise that they never really found their stride again after that. Stone Cold hugging Vince McMahon is like Archie Bunker adopting a black child, it kills his edge, and really deflates the moral of those who supported him for all those years. The only way it works, is if there is someone waiting to have the torch passed to them... but there was nobody.

From there, the Invasion... well... less said the better, and the company slowly but surely stumbled there way into HHH fucking a corpse on live t.v. Somewhere in between all of that I feel like it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to put together that they lost the plot and it really starts with the killing of the greatest Anti-Hero character in all of wrestling history.

The company has never ever recaptured the magic they had with the Austin/Rock era and it all begins with the ill conceived heel turn at Mania X7. Realistically it's because they didn't have anymore competition so they've been on autopilot ever since, but the Austin Heel Turn symbolizes the company really losing their edge.

[Theo Dious]

"IT WAS ME, AUSTIN!"
The whole Ministry angle was really corny and all but it was at least good storytelling. Say what you want but it made supervillian Vince into a sympathetic figure when Taker was going after his family, forcing him to crawl to Austin for help. Killed the angle dead in its tracks. SON OF A BITCH, indeed.

[Theo Dious]

The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst.

The definition of jumping the shark I believe is where a show never finds its legs after a pinnacle moment (ie. Fonzy jumping the shark). Sure, there are still good episodes and good writing interspersed amongst the dreck, but realistically all the steam is lost. I would say the Invasion storyline really got the ball rolling, but Wrestlemania X7 was the apex of success for the company, and Austin turning heel symbolizes the compromise of integrity in the product often associated with jumping the shark. I personally though Austin was tremendous as a heel... but Austin hob knobbing with Vince, playing the ukelele with Kurt and generally being a chicken shit went against the attitude which helped the company reach its heights. Turning Austin heel, made him just another wrestler. What made Austin the guy people flocked to was that although he was kind of a bad guy (what with stunning women, drinking on the job, beating up non wrestlers etc.) was that behind all of that, he had a code (ala Omar from the Wire) and that Code was that he was not a fucking sell out. That was the very foundation of what made the WWF at the time. He was a go to hero to a lot of people... yeah, your girlfriend left you, you got fired from your job, you have erectile dysfunctions... but fuck, Stone Cold Steve Austin would die before he sold out to Vince McMahon and became just another wishy washy wrestling character whose allegiances would change on the whimsy of a creative decision.

If the company was willing to compromise the integrity of Stone Cold Steve Austin's character (albeit with his full support), it comes as no surprise that they never really found their stride again after that. Stone Cold hugging Vince McMahon is like Archie Bunker adopting a black child, it kills his edge, and really deflates the moral of those who supported him for all those years. The only way it works, is if there is someone waiting to have the torch passed to them... but there was nobody.

From there, the Invasion... well... less said the better, and the company slowly but surely stumbled there way into HHH fucking a corpse on live t.v. Somewhere in between all of that I feel like it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to put together that they lost the plot and it really starts with the killing of the greatest Anti-Hero character in all of wrestling history.

The company has never ever recaptured the magic they had with the Austin/Rock era and it all begins with the ill conceived heel turn at Mania X7. Realistically it's because they didn't have anymore competition so they've been on autopilot ever since, but the Austin Heel Turn symbolizes the company really losing their edge.

Austin's heel turn was ill advised but the first attempt COULD have worked, it was only in practice that it became a horrible idea. (Though some of the Taker/Kane bits were great. "Who was it that told Austin and HHH that besting up women and commentators made them badasses?") Th thing is that Austin's pre-Invasion rebirth as THE OLD STONE COLD could have justified it all, because the awesome moment where Freddie Blassie rose from his wheelchair & inspired Austin to take his +1 Pool Cue of Dearh to smite the Alliance wouldn't have had the same impact if Austin hadn't become a lost soul over the past few montths. Why they thought something that failed on the launch pad the first time would be any better in an even less believable scenerios is beyond me. At lea st we got the great matches with Austin, Jericho, and He-Who-We-Can-Apparently-Sometimes-Show-On-The-Network-Now. #still999

[Theo Dious]

OTheo:

Exactly. And he doesn't lose to random guys. He loses the blowoff against guys like Cena and Reigns along with a one off against Taker. I don't think some people understand that's what a good heel does.

At some point Wyatt will have a babyface run. If he's plowed through everyone as a heel, what's the point of doing it again as a face?

I said this once or twice before, but if you read a lot of the stuff on here, nobody in the top half of the card should ever lose a feud. Except Cena. He should lose all of them.

Remember when Cena lost those early matches against Taker & Brock and everyone was wringing their hands like "o noes he iz burried now?" Look how that turned out.

[Evil Vito]

The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst.

The definition of jumping the shark I believe is where a show never finds its legs after a pinnacle moment (ie. Fonzy jumping the shark). Sure, there are still good episodes and good writing interspersed amongst the dreck, but realistically all the steam is lost. I would say the Invasion storyline really got the ball rolling, but Wrestlemania X7 was the apex of success for the company, and Austin turning heel symbolizes the compromise of integrity in the product often associated with jumping the shark. I personally though Austin was tremendous as a heel... but Austin hob knobbing with Vince, playing the ukelele with Kurt and generally being a chicken shit went against the attitude which helped the company reach its heights. Turning Austin heel, made him just another wrestler. What made Austin the guy people flocked to was that although he was kind of a bad guy (what with stunning women, drinking on the job, beating up non wrestlers etc.) was that behind all of that, he had a code (ala Omar from the Wire) and that Code was that he was not a fucking sell out. That was the very foundation of what made the WWF at the time. He was a go to hero to a lot of people... yeah, your girlfriend left you, you got fired from your job, you have erectile dysfunctions... but fuck, Stone Cold Steve Austin would die before he sold out to Vince McMahon and became just another wishy washy wrestling character whose allegiances would change on the whimsy of a creative decision.

If the company was willing to compromise the integrity of Stone Cold Steve Austin's character (albeit with his full support), it comes as no surprise that they never really found their stride again after that. Stone Cold hugging Vince McMahon is like Archie Bunker adopting a black child, it kills his edge, and really deflates the moral of those who supported him for all those years. The only way it works, is if there is someone waiting to have the torch passed to them... but there was nobody.

From there, the Invasion... well... less said the better, and the company slowly but surely stumbled there way into HHH fucking a corpse on live t.v. Somewhere in between all of that I feel like it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to put together that they lost the plot and it really starts with the killing of the greatest Anti-Hero character in all of wrestling history.

The company has never ever recaptured the magic they had with the Austin/Rock era and it all begins with the ill conceived heel turn at Mania X7. Realistically it's because they didn't have anymore competition so they've been on autopilot ever since, but the Austin Heel Turn symbolizes the company really losing their edge.

<font color=goldenrod>Yep, Austin's mentioned numerous times that while he loved working as a heel, WM17 stands right with walking out before the Lesnar match as the biggest regret of his career. Says if he could do it all over again, he'd have audibled everything in the ring and surprise Vince with a Stunner at the very end, therefore making it appear that he used Vince's help just to get the belt back and sucker Vince in in the process.

It's an interesting point though. Austin turned heel at WM17. 13 months later, the company was re-named to WWE. And anybody I knew who once watched wrestling but has fallen out of touch with it still refers to it as WWF even though the "new" company name has been in place for over 13 years. It just kind of shows how many people completely phased out of wrestling right after WM17 or somewhere around then.</font>

[Simple Fan]

Lol you JUST described why Barrett isn't ready.

Amazing!

What? No, Reigns can't wrestle so he has to pull off these moves that are designed to get a pop. I mean he's a power house that barley ever lifts someone. Barrett can wrestle and doesn't have to rely on phony pop moves.

[cnoslim]

The invasion angle....watched it religiously up 'til after that angle finished then and up til now it's been off and on....

[The CyNick]

O

Remember when Cena lost those early matches against Taker & Brock and everyone was wringing their hands like "o noes he iz burried now?" Look how that turned out.

Yes I do. Most people here will claim he came in on day one and dominated.

Few will talk about how he got saddled with B squared and managed to turn that into something positive.

Im a firm believer in talent rising to the top.

[The CyNick]

What? No, Reigns can't wrestle so he has to pull off these moves that are designed to get a pop. I mean he's a power house that barley ever lifts someone. Barrett can wrestle and doesn't have to rely on phony pop moves.

Who's a better wrestler Wade Barrett or Hulk Hogan?

[Lock Jaw]

<iframe width="470" height="365" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WI37V4Cqesg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Emperor Smeat]

The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst.

Might make a small argument that the final episode of WCW Nitro could be an earlier jumping the shark moment for the WWE.

What should have been the ushering of a new era ended up being just another McMahon family feud that evolved into the Invasion storyline and Austin's betrayal of the WWE. Austin turning heel being due to the Vince-Austin feud having no real reason to continue once the threat of WCW was gone.

Ratings-wise, WWE lost around a third to half of what it had during the Attitude Era within that short period of time and never got it back.

[Frank Drebin]

When Nikki Bella fake lost to Charlotte on Raw, Flair comes out for the celebration with tears and all that, only to have it all taken back. Then they do the exact same thing on Sunday with Flair coming out with the tears and all that. That was when the Divas Revolution jumped the shark and I lost all interest in what could have been a hot division for months on end. The culminating moment of months of whatever build that was, was something that had already happened just six days prior. Back to bathroom breaks.

[Mr. JL]

When Chris Benoit killed his family and himself. It was hard to watch wrestling for awhile after that happened.

[Big Vic]

The only time ever rassling has jumped the shark is in WCW with Vince Russo and all the "worked shoots".... especially the Hogan stuff.

There have been a lot of "bad", "cringeworthy" stuff..... but the "worked shoots" and Hogan things weren't just bad, they were "destroying the genre"....
Hate every time a TNA worker says that "He will be going off script tonight"
"IT WAS ME, AUSTIN!"
The whole Ministry angle was really corny and all but it was at least good storytelling. Say what you want but it made supervillian Vince into a sympathetic figure when Taker was going after his family, forcing him to crawl to Austin for help. Killed the angle dead in its tracks. SON OF A BITCH, indeed.
I feel like "The Greater Power should not existed or have just been Shane.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Might make a small argument that the final episode of WCW Nitro could be an earlier jumping the shark moment for the WWE.

What should have been the ushering of a new era ended up being just another McMahon family feud that evolved into the Invasion storyline and Austin's betrayal of the WWE. Austin turning heel being due to the Vince-Austin feud having no real reason to continue once the threat of WCW was gone.

Ratings-wise, WWE lost around a third to half of what it had during the Attitude Era within that short period of time and never got it back.

Very valid point, which I kind of alluded to at the end of my post. I think in all actuality, WCW dying and Vince buying it was wrestling as a whole jumping the shark because really, it killed the fun of it all and WWE didn't have to be all that good anymore. But I think the ultimate embodiment of that fact was Austin turning heel like any other wrestler, when in all actuality this guy was the biggest star in history, and one thing he should never had done until there was no other option, maybe years and years down the line, was side with Vince McMahon.

Think about it, it took Hulk Hogan (including his AWA days) from like 1983 or something to 1996 to turn heel, and he only turned heel when he really wasn't over as a face anymore. I know it was a different time and slower moving, but jeez have some integrity Vince! You won't turn John Cena heel, who gets booed out of the building (though I can see where he's coming from), but you'll turn Steve Austin heel only 4 years after he started his face run.

[screech]

This thread makes me think of when Batista came out during the Slammys and did the interrupting Kanye bit. Pretty sure it was like, 6 months after the original "event."

Not sure if that fits here, but I keep thinking of it when I read this thread.

[The CyNick]

Very valid point, which I kind of alluded to at the end of my post. I think in all actuality, WCW dying and Vince buying it was wrestling as a whole jumping the shark because really, it killed the fun of it all and WWE didn't have to be all that good anymore. But I think the ultimate embodiment of that fact was Austin turning heel like any other wrestler, when in all actuality this guy was the biggest star in history, and one thing he should never had done until there was no other option, maybe years and years down the line, was side with Vince McMahon.

Think about it, it took Hulk Hogan (including his AWA days) from like 1983 or something to 1996 to turn heel, and he only turned heel when he really wasn't over as a face anymore. I know it was a different time and slower moving, but jeez have some integrity Vince! You won't turn John Cena heel, who gets booed out of the building (though I can see where he's coming from), but you'll turn Steve Austin heel only 4 years after he started his face run.

I didn't like the decision but I understand why it was done.

Austin was winding down and they felt like they needed to do something different, something shocking. Part of the failure was bad luck. HHH had been built up as someone who could turn face. The Austin heel turn and alliance with HHH would have worked much better if HHH didn't tear his quad and turned face. After Hunter went down and Rock disappeared, they went the comedy route. I think the bigger mistake was making Angle a comedy character as well. I was always wonder how big Angle could have been as a legit American hero if he was a serious fighter instead of a guy who drank milk and looked goofy. Nobody could have predicted it, but 9/11 could have pushed a legit badass Kurt Angle over the top.

As for The Invasion, looking back I think WWE gets blasted unfairly for that booking. The WCW roster available to them was dogshit. In no way would it make sense for WWE to allow legit icons of the era to lose to guys like Booker T and DDP. Yeah they could have dumped money at the real stars, but doing so would have screwed up their own payroll. Oh Nash gets paid double and works half the dates, I want that too. Before you know you recreated WCW where the real stars don't go on the road. In the long run I honestly believe that would have crippled their business.

I know people like to put on their fantasy booking hats and pretend like things like money and morale are not important, but they are. So in my mind Vince made the right call long term. The other factor is people always say they should have let WCW come in and dominate WWE. But those people don't understand branding. WCW allowed their brand to be tarnished by the nWo. Nash talks a lot about how the booking at the time was to build more and more heat. Most so called experts say that's how WCW v WWE should have been booked. When you look at how little value the letters WCW had post nWo you will see Vince made the right long term call burying then.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I understand both decisions. But in both cases, they were the wrong decisions.

As far as Austin goes, I get turning him heel as a wrestling character, opening up other opportunities. But there are intangibles being drastically ignored in all of it, namely that Austin wasn't just a wrestling character to a lot of people. At the time I even agreed with the move, but something about it killed the heart and soul of the company. Not just the bad luck of it all, but everything else as well.

Regardless of what stars you had, you can still book a decent angle instead of McMahon-athon. And slowly but surely, they could have signed more stars.... hell, they signed the nwo in 2002 not much long after the invasion was over.

What the problem was and still is, is a lack of patience and foresight.

[Big Vic]

I think they should have let Heyman be the leader of the invasion, keep Steph out of it and Shane could still "own" WCW but not do in ring promos (although I don't think he did many).

I think Austin should have turned heel at Mania 17 but instead of aligning with Vince give him a stunner too.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And as far as "burying guys" being the right move. If you bury people, what good does beating anyone that is buried do for anyone? That is wrestling 101 CyNick. Come on, an all knowing god such as yourself should know these things ;)

[Maluco]

I thought "jump the shark" was more something ludicrous or over the top that signalled the end of a particular show?

To stick with that definition, I will go with Warrior/Hogan in WCW and the infamous appearing in mirror. Not only was it sad and weird, but that fact that Hogan, fans and commentators could see Warrior but Bischoff couldn't, was baffling and showed where their writing was going at the time...

[The CyNick]

I understand both decisions. But in both cases, they were the wrong decisions.

As far as Austin goes, I get turning him heel as a wrestling character, opening up other opportunities. But there are intangibles being drastically ignored in all of it, namely that Austin wasn't just a wrestling character to a lot of people. At the time I even agreed with the move, but something about it killed the heart and soul of the company. Not just the bad luck of it all, but everything else as well.

Regardless of what stars you had, you can still book a decent angle instead of McMahon-athon. And slowly but surely, they could have signed more stars.... hell, they signed the nwo in 2002 not much long after the invasion was over.

What the problem was and still is, is a lack of patience and foresight.

But like you said you thought turning him was a good idea. It was an era where everything moved quickly. Austin wasn't going to have a 10 year run on top as a babyface like Hogan. As it was they had maybe 2 years left with him. Again in hindsight it was a bad move. But I also remember reading the sheets and being on places like this and reading "its getting stale, glass breaks, stunners, austin vs vince". I think it didn't work primarily because Austin didn't have enough babyface stars to work with.

Sure they signed guys when their contracts were up or at a point where signing them wouldn't upset the applecart. It's all tied into the Invasion angle. How do you realistically put a WCW crew led by Booker T and DDP over guys like Austin, Rock, Taker, Hunter, etc. Not to mention the guys on the next tier like Jericho, Angle, Hardys, Benoit, etc. The only way to create a believable story was to utilize characters the audience already saw as stars (Austin, Steph, Shane, etc) and then hope a few of the new WCW talent would get over. Really it ended up only being Booker T who stood out as a legit upper mid card talent.

And even when they brought in guys slowly, you saw their warts. Steiner was a disaster. Scott Hall was a wreck. Hogan had to be sheltered. Goldberg was great but had limited dates and never seemed to like the business. They got a little bit of mileage out of everyone and it, but none of those guys really made a huge difference. It wasn't until Cena came along a few years later that the company was saved from spinning their wheels. I'm just not sure booking wise how you turn guys like Lance Storm and Kanyom into guys who could hang with Austin and Rock.

[The CyNick]

I think they should have let Heyman be the leader of the invasion, keep Steph out of it and Shane could still "own" WCW but not do in ring promos (although I don't think he did many).

I think Austin should have turned heel at Mania 17 but instead of aligning with Vince give him a stunner too.

Thing is Shane was over back then. Steph was just starting to get comfortable as a TV character in an authority figure. I hear your point, but I think they both added value.

Watch him and Vince at 17 and tell me he wasn't over. So it's not like he was some random cold character.

And Heyman was involved and brought real passion to some promos. So it's like you already had him there doing what you needed him to do.

[The CyNick]

I thought "jump the shark" was more something ludicrous or over the top that signalled the end of a particular show?

To stick with that definition, I will go with Warrior/Hogan in WCW and the infamous appearing in mirror. Not only was it sad and weird, but that fact that Hogan, fans and commentators could see Warrior but Bischoff couldn't, was baffling and showed where their writing was going at the time...

I hated that too, but to play devils advocate that kind of stuff is done in movies and nobody bats an eye

[The CyNick]

And as far as "burying guys" being the right move. If you bury people, what good does beating anyone that is buried do for anyone? That is wrestling 101 CyNick. Come on, an all knowing god such as yourself should know these things ;)

Sometimes it's necessary

At that time they had TONS of talent. They really didn't NEED anyone from WCW. All they needed was to put WCW on the shelf, brag about killing them off to show superiority, and organize their tape library for future profits. Any bonus money from a WWF V WCW on air program was bonus. Which they got from the Invasion PPV.

But this idea that a faction of guys led by guys like Lance Storm should do anything but go under is absurd to me. Like who would you have had go over Austin (inagine he was represting WWF) to establish WCW? There's nobody close to making sense in that side.

The reality is the war was won long before Mania 17. The fans knew that.

[Tom Guycott]

Totally understand that point of view.

Saying he buries people shows a lack of understanding of the business.

OR it is one of those things where the more hyperbolic statement is the easier way (albeit incorrectly) to explain a situation. When most people say that, they don't necessarily mean John is being an asshole and politicking himself to remain on top. They mean him being booked to win all the fucking time is greatly aiding in the lack of perception of "upper tier" talent, as any steam "wrestler x" had hits a brick wall affer being fed to Cena.

[The CyNick]

OR it is one of those things where the more hyperbolic statement is the easier way (albeit incorrectly) to explain a situation. When most people say that, they don't necessarily mean John is being an asshole and politicking himself to remain on top. They mean him being booked to win all the fucking time is greatly aiding in the lack of perception of "upper tier" talent, as any steam "wrestler x" had hits a brick wall affer being fed to Cena.

The word chosen was bury. If we're going to just use words incorrectly were going to have a tough time communicating.

But that aside, for the top babyface in the territory he loses a TON! So the statement is competely wrong.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Sometimes it's necessary

At that time they had TONS of talent. They really didn't NEED anyone from WCW. All they needed was to put WCW on the shelf, brag about killing them off to show superiority, and organize their tape library for future profits. Any bonus money from a WWF V WCW on air program was bonus. Which they got from the Invasion PPV.

But this idea that a faction of guys led by guys like Lance Storm should do anything but go under is absurd to me. Like who would you have had go over Austin (inagine he was represting WWF) to establish WCW? There's nobody close to making sense in that side.

The reality is the war was won long before Mania 17. The fans knew that.

The angle clearly didn't work out for them because it ate shit. If you're just going to bury a bunch of guys then don't do the angle. There's lots of ways around how everything went other than just putting Lance Storm over Steve Austin clean, it just required some outside of the box thinking. Fact is, the product has never had the same amount of steam since, and it's really hard to argue that. I mean I'm sure you will, but it's not really debatable. X7 really was the apex. Vince lost his edge afterwards

[Big Vic]

They could have added a stip to a PPVevent where if the Alliance won they would hold ownership of smackdown (WCW Smackdown). Then you could do the brand split a bit sooner, have some people jump to WCW and hold off for a stronger invasion next year.

[The CyNick]

The angle clearly didn't work out for them because it ate shit. If you're just going to bury a bunch of guys then don't do the angle. There's lots of ways around how everything went other than just putting Lance Storm over Steve Austin clean, it just required some outside of the box thinking. Fact is, the product has never had the same amount of steam since, and it's really hard to argue that. I mean I'm sure you will, but it's not really debatable. X7 really was the apex. Vince lost his edge afterwards

I don't think he lost any booking prowess. I think what happened is somewhere along the way he decided it was best to move the company in a more kid friendly direction. I mean if by having edge you mean he did the Satanism angles, Beaver Cleaver, and an angle centred around a man's penis being cut off, I'll take the stuff today thanks. At least I'm not embarrassed turning on the TV when its on.

The biggest difference to me is the performers were better and more importantly hungrier than most of the guys today. I've said this before but the Attitude Era was like having the 70s Montreal Canadiens and saying the coaching was superior. No, it's that the players were a bunch of hall of famers, which is nearly impossible to replicate. Look at the roster at WM 17 and look at the talent today and tell me the roster today is just as good.

The angles themselves, really not much different then compared to today. It's just now we don't have guys killing themselves with chairs and stupid falls, we don't have the bad language (which I admit i thought it was cool...of course I was 16 then), and we have girls being athletes rather than strip club wannabees. Maybe that was "edgy", but I'm an adult, I don't need my sports entertainment to be porn or a live action slasher flick.

[The CyNick]

They could have added a stip to a PPVevent where if the Alliance won they would hold ownership of smackdown (WCW Smackdown). Then you could do the brand split a bit sooner, have some people jump to WCW and hold off for a stronger invasion next year.

That terrible branding. That's what everyone suggested, hell I probably suggested that on here in 2001. But it was a bad idea. Thankfully Vince had the foresight to see the importance in keeping his shows branding in tact. It's not just a flip of a switch to change SD to "WCW SD" only to change it back in 18 months. And then do you have a tour under the WCW banner? Is WWF coming to town? Oh its "WCW", they are shit, no thanks.

[Big Vic]

I don't think the story lines are as good today as they were back in 1999, but they are better than the simplistic shit that was taking place in 2007-2009 of "I want the title, I will beat you"

I still don't want to devote 3 hours of my Monday to wrestling though, I might check out the PPV when it comes by though, the tourney is intriguing and might put them in a good direction depending on the outcome.

[Big Vic]

That terrible branding. That's what everyone suggested, hell I probably suggested that on here in 2001. But it was a bad idea. Thankfully Vince had the foresight to see the importance in keeping his shows branding in tact. It's not just a flip of a switch to change SD to "WCW SD" only to change it back in 18 months. And then do you have a tour under the WCW banner? Is WWF coming to town? Oh its "WCW", they are shit, no thanks.If you build a good product on TV then people will want to see WCW Smackdown. Put Hogan as a headliner of the show and people will want to go to the house show. Have Rock be "drafted" to WCW, people will show up to watch the Rock.

[Emperor Smeat]

They could have added a stip to a PPVevent where if the Alliance won they would hold ownership of smackdown (WCW Smackdown). Then you could do the brand split a bit sooner, have some people jump to WCW and hold off for a stronger invasion next year.

Might have been a possible idea had the WCW tryout match involving Buff Bagwell and Booker T not bombed badly a few weeks into the early Invasion period.

Ended up both killing the original plans for the brand split and the Invasion itself once Vince panicked. The original plans had WCW coming out well enough from the Invasion to setup the brand split era and their control of Smackdown. RAW still stays as the flagship show but Smackdown gets treated a lot better than just as an afterthought it was during most of that era.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol at CyNick.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm sure you guys are going to address Starrcade '97, Kevin Nash beating Goldberg, the Fingerpoke of Doom, Vince Russo WCW World Heavyweight Champion, David Arquette WCW World Heavyweight Champion, etc. That company almost doesn't need to be touched on.

The Stone Cold heel turn and the Alliance angle are technically the correct answer for the WWF's side of things. I couldn't have said it better than Gorgeous Dale, but if you're going by what jumping the shark actually means, then it's hard to argue with business spiraling after this point in time and never getting back to what it was.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Honestly, Roman Reigns winning the 2015 Royal Rumble felt like a shark-jumping moment to me. It certainly damaged my enthusiasm for professional wrestling, and it still hasn't gotten back to where it was.

[Lock Jaw]

Stone Cold heel turn was good because he was actually entertaining then

[Mr. Nerfect]

I was thinking the other day that Alberto Del Rio's character in WWE jumped the shark when he didn't win the World Heavyweight Title at WrestleMania XXVII. I liked Del Rio when he first showed up. He had the cocky swagger that was backed up by crisp in-ring performances, often done with a literal wink. He submitted Rey Mysterio in his first televised match on SmackDown, and would later do some cool things, like smacking the urn out of Paul Bearer's hands in a promo leading up to TLC that year. I liked that because it was some intriguing heel vs. heel interaction, and it highlighted that Del Rio believed in himself and was afraid of nothing. Then he won the 40-man Royal Rumble...and then lost to Edge.

Maybe his character could have been salvaged afterwards -- reflecting on his loss and becoming more dangerous or humble or something -- but after he did lose, it felt like all the reasons for the character to be cocky and confident disappeared, and it felt like he never got back to that level, even after winning Money in the Bank, four World Titles and recently returning to defeat John Cena cleanly.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Stone Cold heel turn was good because he was actually entertaining then

Yeah, but it crippled the show, bruh.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm glad I didn't list Christian being the jumping the shark moment for the brand extension, because that would have really broken your heart, Locky. :(

[McLegend]

For me it's Raw going three hours.


That's the point when I stopped watching.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That's definitely a very notable one. It marks a point where I actually got exhausted by professional wrestling content.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyone want to touch TNA? They've had a few noteworthy examples. I think Bischoff/Hogan is the technically correct answer for them though.

[Lock Jaw]

I'm glad I didn't list Christian being the jumping the shark moment for the brand extension, because that would have really broken your heart, Locky. :(

Jumped the shark way before that.... Maybe with Triple H getting drafted to Smackdown and then like a dozen guys being traded to get him back.... or just after the first few when it became "clear" that they would just draft up and coming Smackdown rasslers to RAW.... and then give back from RAW former SD guys that RAW used up and killed....


Christian going to ECW was a pretty dumb move, though....

[Mr. Nerfect]

That draft with Triple H and Jim Ross heading over was pretty good. Triple H didn't spend enough time there, but I don't think it was a jumping the shark moment. Maybe when they started doing the Supershows or running ECW alongside SmackDown?

[Theo Dious]

That draft with Triple H and Jim Ross heading over was pretty good. Triple H didn't spend enough time there, but I don't think it was a jumping the shark moment. Maybe when they started doing the Supershows or running ECW alongside SmackDown?

The Supershows were pretty much the jump the shark moment for the brand extension.

Or maybe ECW was.

[Theo Dious]

Christian going to ECW was a pretty dumb move, though....

Probably his best singles run though. Just saying.

Look I got to see him live with a belt around his waist. BACK OFF.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>Yeah I loved Christian's ECW run. Then again I loved most things about WWECW. Kinda made me realize that one hour is the perfect amount of time to watch professional wrestling (also why I hope NXT never goes to 2 hours aside from the live specials).</font>

[Mr. Nerfect]

Christian actually got to talk as a babyface in ECW. Well, at least once I can remember.

[Mr. Nerfect]

NXT made me realize the value of a one-hour wrestling product.

[Mr. Nerfect]

CyNick jumped the shark as a wrestling poster in the RAW thread.

[Theo Dious]

<font color=goldenrod>Yeah I loved Christian's ECW run. Then again I loved most things about WWECW. Kinda made me realize that one hour is the perfect amount of time to watch professional wrestling (also why I hope NXT never goes to 2 hours aside from the live specials).</font>

Starting around the time they introduced the new belt ECW was a great show, it just would have been way better if it had been called something else. I wish it had just continued into NXT and they'd never had the lame ass competition format.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I don't think he lost any booking prowess. I think what happened is somewhere along the way he decided it was best to move the company in a more kid friendly direction. I mean if by having edge you mean he did the Satanism angles, Beaver Cleaver, and an angle centred around a man's penis being cut off, I'll take the stuff today thanks. At least I'm not embarrassed turning on the TV when its on.

The biggest difference to me is the performers were better and more importantly hungrier than most of the guys today. I've said this before but the Attitude Era was like having the 70s Montreal Canadiens and saying the coaching was superior. No, it's that the players were a bunch of hall of famers, which is nearly impossible to replicate. Look at the roster at WM 17 and look at the talent today and tell me the roster today is just as good.

The angles themselves, really not much different then compared to today. It's just now we don't have guys killing themselves with chairs and stupid falls, we don't have the bad language (which I admit i thought it was cool...of course I was 16 then), and we have girls being athletes rather than strip club wannabees. Maybe that was "edgy", but I'm an adult, I don't need my sports entertainment to be porn or a live action slasher flick.

I don't mean edge as in edgey, I mean edge as in competitive edge, intensity, ability to put on top notch television. A lot of the good stuff we saw in 2000/2001 etc.

[The Condor]

The more I think about it, this is a terrible question for diehard wrestling fans who discuss the business daily on a forum. Wrestling has jumped sharks, krakens, and Godzilla since at least the mid-80's, but it's still alive. There are ebbs and flows, ups and downs, strikes and gutters... it's just that the past decade has been a really long down period that may be the new normal.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Also, in 2002 that roster was stacked and it was still absolute shite.

[Lock Jaw]

and Godzilla

http://38.media.tumblr.com/b1abe0ad75f90b49543008fed44d8902/tumblr_n8826xPsSw1saykaxo1_400.gif

[Theo Dious]

The more I think about it, this is a terrible question for diehard wrestling fans who discuss the business daily on a forum. Wrestling has jumped sharks, krakens, and Godzilla since at least the mid-80's, but it's still alive. There are ebbs and flows, ups and downs, strikes and gutters... it's just that the past decade has been a really long down period that may be the new normal.

Wrestling is inherently absurd, which is why this is a good subject. In the world of ridiculousness that is professional wrestling, if we can tap down moments that make us throw up our hands and say "oh fuck this" then we'he definitely hit something.

[Maluco]

It would also be possible to say that the Attitude era was burning itself out before any invasion angle. They just kept going to the well for more shocking moments and eventually that was going to dry up.

The Al Snow/Bossman kennel match was a possible jump the shark moment. A point of ridiculousness where people might just say, hey, we have gone too far with all of this.

The Hardcore title also had its own jumping the shark moments. Although fun at the time, matches in ball pits and the like could only be entertaining for so long.

Anytime things got so absurd, it could be considered as jumping the shark. Wrestling had to change and adapt to keep going.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

That is the craziest thing about wrestling. Austin dropping h from that crane was Fucking retarded.... Such a dumb angle. And h wad back in 2 weeks without a scratch. But it being wrestling, h and Austin end up having that burner at no way out and pretty much from Jan to wrestlemania was awesome. I'd say the attitude era was already over by that point though.

[Lock Jaw]

Was about to post the JBL/Godzilla segment on my Facebook with the comment "NEVER FORGET"........... glad I caught myself.... donut think it would have gone over too good....

[Rammsteinmad]

The Al Snow/Bossman kennel match was a possible jump the shark moment. A point of ridiculousness where people might just say, hey, we have gone too far with all of this.

Are you fucking kidding me? 12-year-old me thought this was the greatest match ever! :mad:

[#1-norm-fan]

The invasion angle without a doubt is the moment wrestling/WWE jumped the shark. instead of bringing in a bigger audience with the competition under their umbrella, they somehow managed to LOSE fans over the years. There have been moments since then and even decent stretches of entertaining stuff somewhere on the card but for the most part, that's the moment when WWE decided it didn't need to really try too hard anymore and less and less guys started getting over until we got to the point where we are now.

[Bad News Gertner]

Cena and Cryme Tyme writing "JBL is Poopy" on his limo is my Jump the Shark moment when I said to myself "what the fuck am I watching". It was the WWE latest lame attempt at comedy and it came off as something 10 year old Bad News Gertner would have written on a schoolmates binder in elementary school. It was the moment when I realized "this isn't for me anymore"

[Big Vic]

Yeah I loved Christian's ECW run. Then again I loved most things about WWECW. Kinda made me realize that one hour is the perfect amount of time to watch professional wrestling (also why I hope NXT never goes to 2 hours aside from the live specials).
When I was in college WWECW was the only wrestling I kinda watched, I dunno why I liked it some much but it being 1 hour was perfect.

[The CyNick]

CyNick jumped the shark as a wrestling poster in the RAW thread.

I turned the business around

For better or worse is up for debate

[The CyNick]

The invasion angle without a doubt is the moment wrestling/WWE jumped the shark. instead of bringing in a bigger audience with the competition under their umbrella, they somehow managed to LOSE fans over the years. There have been moments since then and even decent stretches of entertaining stuff somewhere on the card but for the most part, that's the moment when WWE decided it didn't need to really try too hard anymore and less and less guys started getting over until we got to the point where we are now.

Fans are not dumb

Clearly WCW had an audience that wasn't interested in the WWE product, so they left. I don't think any angle under the WWE umbrella was going to keep them around.

[Theo Dious]

That is the craziest thing about wrestling. Austin dropping h from that crane was Fucking retarded.... Such a dumb angle. And h wad back in 2 weeks without a scratch.


Did he or did he not have a huge-ass bandage on his head? And look cars are way safe these days. Hell my brother flipped a car over once, walked away without a scratch, and started his army career the next day. Austin knew that. He wasn't trying to kill HHH, he just wanted to make him piss himsrlf. As a card-carrying Texas redneck, Austin had seen plenty of wild NASCAR wrecks where guys were fine. Fuck, HHH was a pussy for needing 2 whole weeks. Kevin Nash stood right up after the Finger Poke of Doom FFS and that would have killed Goldberg.

[The CyNick]

I don't mean edge as in edgey, I mean edge as in competitive edge, intensity, ability to put on top notch television. A lot of the good stuff we saw in 2000/2001 etc.

There has been better stuff since then.

[Big Vic]

I'd like to know what CyNick thought of the Bri/Nikki feud from last year.

Or the Big Show and his Iron clad contract vs The Authority, angle.

[Blue Demon]

I'm gonna take us back to WrestleMania 9 when Hogan came out after the Yoko/Bret match, accepts a ridiculous looking challenge by Yoko/Fuji, looking stupidly surprised while Bret tells him to "go for it brother!" then essentially leg drops Yoko and wins the title. I stopped watchign wrestling for almost a year after that.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

There has been better stuff since then.

Mmm hmm.

[Evil Vito]

I'd like to know what CyNick thought of the Bri/Nikki feud from last year.

<font color=goldenrod>"It was great, believable storytelling. Anybody who has a sibling can put themselves in Brie's shoes and relate to how heartbreaking it must be to be stabbed in the back by someone so close to you. And it's fine that they were united once again after a few months because at the end of the day you always forgive your brother or sister when they've wronged you."</font>

[Blonde Moment]

Two moments come to mind
The Death of Owen Hart where they continued the show
The other was the Beniot memorial show. One one channel you have the wrestlers pouring their hearts out about what a great man he was etc, meanwhile on another news breaks about the murder suicide

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I hate giving CyNick too much attention. But his initial run on the forum was similar to this. It was when we all liked the WWF, and he was strictly anti, and eventually just revealed he was doing it to be a troll. He came in with a bunch of other guys and was super annoying then too. Now he's doing the same thing, on the other side of the fence. Troll is too harsh because he's not actually a jerk or anything, but it's clear he talks utter shite.

UTTER SHITE.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>It's been pretty clear that he's been trolling since he came back because I've never seen anybody defend the current WWE product to the degree that he has.

The only reason most of us even watch now or at the very least still keep tabs on what's happening is because it's a habit and, like a sports team, you just hope against hope that someday it will be good again.</font>

[Blonde Moment]

<font color=goldenrod>It's been pretty clear that he's been trolling since he came back because I've never seen anybody defend the current WWE product to the degree that he has.

The only reason most of us even watch now or at the very least still keep tabs on what's happening is because it's a habit and, like a sports team, you just hope against hope that someday it will be good again.</font>

This

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol it's not that he defends the product.... each to their own.... it's to the degree in which he does, as though it's life and death

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And yeah Vito I agree. We keep tabs and hope things pick up, and there's some real energy in the product.

[Evil Vito]

<font color=goldenrod>I know to each their own and everything...I just don't see how anybody with any sort of appreciation towards forward thinking and long-term booking can possibly enjoy the disjointed mess that is modern WWE.

Like I won't lie, I sat through WCW in 2000 and found myself entertained. I was also 11 and didn't have a clue about logical booking. If I was that age now I'd likely have to problem with current WWE. But I'm not.</font>

[Evil Vito]

And yeah Vito I agree. We keep tabs and hope things pick up, and there's some real energy in the product.

<font color=goldenrod>Yep. I'd be willing to bet that nearly every poster on this board at least gives a courtesy look during Rumble/WM season to see what's going on even if they've lapsed away from the product. Even the people who don't post here anymore probably still do it. There's a reason we all signed up to a wrestling message board in the first place lol.</font>

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well look, CyNick can like it all he wants. But telling us how amazing it is and how Vince is a god and we're ignorant if we don't think that is a little bit odd. Yes we get it, we aren't "the demographic", but really, great t.v. appeals to ALL demographics, just teetering towards specific ones. And realistically, what children are up from 9-11 o'clock on a school night lol? That doesn't really make sense to me. It'd be adults channel surfing you'd want to hook in.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And just because business is good, doesn't mean the product is good. Wal Mart does tremendously but you go into Wal Mart and it's a fucking wasteland. So yeah, WWE is great at being Wal Mart. Wonderful for them, terrible for people who like a little bit more out of what they watch.

Though it's not without it's awesome moments. That's the one great thing about wrestling, even if it is terrible, there can always be those moments that click, and give you goosebumps. When it's good, it's fucking good. Just these days, with the slap dash way it's put together mass produced and shit out week to week, those moments are fewer and far between.

[The CyNick]

I'd like to know what CyNick thought of the Bri/Nikki feud from last year.

Or the Big Show and his Iron clad contract vs The Authority, angle.

Bri and Nikki was a good idea just horrific execution mainly from Bri, and that forced the writers to just put them back together like it never happened. I will say I thought a lot of the dialogue (Im assuming from Vince and the writers) was a massive step back to the Attitude Era in its vulgarity. Not sure what they were trying to accomplish. It's like it's a simple angle about sisterly jealousy, don't need to talk about dying in the womb. To WWEs credit, they recognized the mistake and tried to correct it.

The Big Show angle doesn't stand out as good or bad. I'm getting old. I forget the details.

[The CyNick]

I hate giving CyNick too much attention. But his initial run on the forum was similar to this. It was when we all liked the WWF, and he was strictly anti, and eventually just revealed he was doing it to be a troll. He came in with a bunch of other guys and was super annoying then too. Now he's doing the same thing, on the other side of the fence. Troll is too harsh because he's not actually a jerk or anything, but it's clear he talks utter shite.

UTTER SHITE.

I was highly regarded. And I don't recall every admitting to trolling. Most people have a sheep mentality. Ya'll get your backs up when someone brings a different slant.

I'm honestly not trying to troll anyone. I don't even know what that means. When i started posting here I was a dirt sheet follower, and I would regurgitate a lot of what I was reading or hearing about how doom and gloom was coming for WWE. It eventually killed my interest in the business. I went a good I dunno 6 years or so of not watching very much. In that time I stopped reading sheets and listening to the negative nelly podcasts. In the last couple years I decided to watch RAW more frequently, and I noticed that without the constant negativity from the IWC, I just enjoyed the product for what it is - simple entertainment. I've tried to share that experience with you fine folks, and demonstrate that you don't need to pick every last thing apart. If you sit back and let them worry about who to push, it's far more enjoyable. I dunno, I guess that means I'm a troll in this land.

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>It's been pretty clear that he's been trolling since he came back because I've never seen anybody defend the current WWE product to the degree that he has.

The only reason most of us even watch now or at the very least still keep tabs on what's happening is because it's a habit and, like a sports team, you just hope against hope that someday it will be good again.</font>

Maybe you should be in my livingroom and see me dance when New Day comes out. I genuinely like the product today.

I wish that we had a new Stone Cold, Rock, Triple H, Foley, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, E+C, and Hardys but the odds of getting that much talent in one place is slim and now. That was a golden age. Hard to replicate.

[Simple Fan]

I actually enjoy The Cynick. Slow work days are great for a Cynick conversation.

[The CyNick]

lol it's not that he defends the product.... each to their own.... it's to the degree in which he does, as though it's life and death

How does one determine that from words on a message board

[Big Vic]

Bri and Nikki was a good idea just horrific execution mainly from Bri, and that forced the writers to just put them back together like it never happened. I will say I thought a lot of the dialogue (Im assuming from Vince and the writers) was a massive step back to the Attitude Era in its vulgarity. Not sure what they were trying to accomplish. It's like it's a simple angle about sisterly jealousy, don't need to talk about dying in the womb. To WWEs credit, they recognized the mistake and tried to correct it.

The Big Show angle doesn't stand out as good or bad. I'm getting old. I forget the details.
You don't think they should have done something to conclude the Bella angle besides just sticking them back together out of nowhere?

Big show got himself a LUCRATIVE Iron clad contract from John L. that not even Vince could terminate, no matter what big show did. Next year Steph could fire him for not knocking out Dusty Rhodes.
He seemed to care about Daniel Bryan out of nowhere, and some how lost all his money.
Big Shows wife apparantly called Stephanie and said big show wasn't performing well in bed.

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>I know to each their own and everything...I just don't see how anybody with any sort of appreciation towards forward thinking and long-term booking can possibly enjoy the disjointed mess that is modern WWE.

Like I won't lie, I sat through WCW in 2000 and found myself entertained. I was also 11 and didn't have a clue about logical booking. If I was that age now I'd likely have to problem with current WWE. But I'm not.</font>

Seth Rollins

Rock vs Cena

Lesnar The Conquerer

Daniel Bryan and the YES movement

All examples of great angles that were well thought out and built over months or years. Those four angles were multiple times better than just about everything from The Attitude Era.

[Big Vic]

Maybe you should be in my livingroom and see me dance when New Day comes out. I genuinely like the product today.
Please post a video.

[The CyNick]

Well look, CyNick can like it all he wants. But telling us how amazing it is and how Vince is a god and we're ignorant if we don't think that is a little bit odd. Yes we get it, we aren't "the demographic", but really, great t.v. appeals to ALL demographics, just teetering towards specific ones. And realistically, what children are up from 9-11 o'clock on a school night lol? That doesn't really make sense to me. It'd be adults channel surfing you'd want to hook in.

Its not just about kids though, it's about appealing to advertisers and not coming off as softcore porn. I don't recall very many angles recently that embarrassed me as a fan. Looking back, if I was watching 1999 WWF today, I wouldn't want anyone to know I watch that type of filth.

[The CyNick]

Please post a video.

Hmmm I'll take it under advisement

[Simple Fan]

Maybe you should be in my livingroom and see me dance when New Day comes out. I genuinely like the product today.

I wish that we had a new Stone Cold, Rock, Triple H, Foley, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, E+C, and Hardys but the odds of getting that much talent in one place is slim and now. That was a golden age. Hard to replicate.

New Day has been the shinning light on Raw the last couple months. I have no doubt that the talent today can get to the level of those guys, they just have to be presented better.

So many time people get a push only to have it fade out. Hell Curtis Axel could be a star right now if they never killed his push with Heyman and added Ryback to the mix.

[The CyNick]

And just because business is good, doesn't mean the product is good. Wal Mart does tremendously but you go into Wal Mart and it's a fucking wasteland. So yeah, WWE is great at being Wal Mart. Wonderful for them, terrible for people who like a little bit more out of what they watch.

Though it's not without it's awesome moments. That's the one great thing about wrestling, even if it is terrible, there can always be those moments that click, and give you goosebumps. When it's good, it's fucking good. Just these days, with the slap dash way it's put together mass produced and shit out week to week, those moments are fewer and far between.

Right but to me is like watching Saturday Night Live. I don't care for the show now, but even when i watched every week, there would be 2 or 3 sketches every week that I thought were terrible. Oh well I would think, can't win em all. When the bad sketches far out numbered the good ones, I shut it down. My disconnect with people is when they say the product is no good and barely watch, but can tell me every time Seth Rollins did a JOB in the last 8 months.

[The CyNick]

You don't think they should have done something to conclude the Bella angle besides just sticking them back together out of nowhere?

Big show got himself a LUCRATIVE Iron clad contract from John L. that not even Vince could terminate, no matter what big show did. Next year Steph could fire him for not knocking out Dusty Rhodes.
He seemed to care about Daniel Bryan out of nowhere, and some how lost all his money.
Big Shows wife apparantly called Stephanie and said big show wasn't performing well in bed.

I think Bri on her own is death. I think they are more effective as heels as a unit. Although I'm startng to think Nikki is better off on her own because she's improved way more than Bri. So yeah, they could have figured out a better way to bring them back together, but honestly the angle was a failure, so the less you focus on trying to tell a story to undo what was done, the better.

Yeah I vaguely remember that. I dunno, sounds like it has some holes in the story. Ideally it would be air tight. In the grand scheme of things how iron clad Show's contact was, isn't a game changer for me personally. Maybe Steph is better at finding loopholes in contacts. And I don't find it a stretch that a wrestler would be broke or have erectile dysfunction. That said, but a fan of the sex storylines.

[The CyNick]

New Day has been the shinning light on Raw the last couple months. I have no doubt that the talent today can get to the level of those guys, they just have to be presented better.

So many time people get a push only to have it fade out. Hell Curtis Axel could be a star right now if they never killed his push with Heyman and added Ryback to the mix.

Axel is junk

[Lock Jaw]

The Big Show ironclad contract thing wasn't too bad, honestly.... the contract thing was from like 1.5 years or so before the angle where he was threatened to be fired.... and it is just an element that was quietly dropped, and they moved on from it to tell another story.

[Big Vic]

They kind of stuck on it for awhile threatening to fire him each week until BattleGround.

[Big Vic]

Story would have worked fine if it was Kane in Big Shows shoes.

[Simple Fan]

Axel is junk

Because they have done nothing with him after his IC title run. Dude had wins against HHH and Cena when they debuted the Axel gimmick. Then he got mixed in with Ryback and they give up on the both of them. Axel could be somthing though.

[#1-norm-fan]

Did CyNick really just try to defend the way WWE ended the Bellas feud by having them go from mortal enemies to friends with no explanation... as NOT being mindblowingly retarded writing?

I can't with this right now. I just can't.

[The CyNick]

Because they have done nothing with him after his IC title run. Dude had wins against HHH and Cena when they debuted the Axel gimmick. Then he got mixed in with Ryback and they give up on the both of them. Axel could be somthing though.

Agree to disagree.

I want to like him because he's Perfect's kid, but he's just not great at anything. I dont even think he's very good at anything. Just your average blah guy.

[Lock Jaw]

I concur. Axel is kind of not good. Ryback could be something. Axel can't. Period.

[The CyNick]

Did CyNick really just try to defend the way WWE ended the Bellas feud by having them go from mortal enemies to friends with no explanation... as NOT being mindblowingly retarded writing?

I can't with this right now. I just can't.

I criticized the writing for some of the verbiage. I mean I assume that wasnt the girls going off on their own.

The writing of the start of the angle was fine. Nikki was a cunt, Bri had enough, they fight. Makes perfect sense. The problem was the execution of especially Bri trying to be a babyface was God awful.

I think WWE looked at that and went "well we either fire Bri because she's useless as a face by herself, or we put them back together as a unit. My guess is how the story played out wasnt the original plan, but they just wanted to put them back as a team, so they almost said "no pretend that didnt happen". It bad writing, but it was caused by lack of skill of some of the talent involved.

[Simple Fan]

What the fuck? He's better than perfect at every damned thing he does.

[Lock Jaw]

Axel is not better than Mr Perfect.

[Simple Fan]

He could be. Just needs something to do.

[Damian Rey]

Mr Perfect oozed charisma. His son does not. Sure, he could be a decent talent in the mid card, but he's not nor has he ever had anything in his skill set to make him better than dad.

[Evil Vito]

Seth Rollins

Rock vs Cena

Lesnar The Conquerer

Daniel Bryan and the YES movement

All examples of great angles that were well thought out and built over months or years. Those four angles were multiple times better than just about everything from The Attitude Era.

<font color=goldenrod>Gotta love Seth Rollins starring in his role in "the champion who jobs constantly." And how about those segments every week where Triple H just appears to be a disappointed dad. That sure did put the champion of the company over.

Yeah that Rock/Cena feud was legendary. I loved watching one of the people in the feud cut promos live "via satellite" constantly. Nevermind building an entire WrestleMania on the premise of "ONCE IN A LIFETIME!" when they already knew they were going to do a rematch at WM29.

I'll grant you Lesnar to a degree, I don't think they'd have had him break the Streak if they weren't planning on putting the strap on him at SummerSlam, which they then did. Too bad they really didn't make his first one-on-one defeat after breaking the streak mean anything and he instead just gave a win back to Taker.

And there you go again pretending that Daniel Bryan main eventing WrestleMania 30 was planned for months and months dating back to SummerSlam and not at all a result of the fans completely rejecting the Batista/Orton main event they were going to be force-fed. That's cute.</font>

[#1-norm-fan]

My guess is how the story played out wasnt the original plan, but they just wanted to put them back as a team, so they almost said "no pretend that didnt happen". It bad writing, but it was caused by lack of skill of some of the talent involved.

No. Not gonna let you try to actually reason that. lol

It was horrific writing and the fact that the girls involved weren't good (Surprise, genius writers! The Bellas can't act!) doesn't excuse them from actually finding a way out of it instead of just "Okay, friends now." It's retarded writing. And it's quite normal for WWE to be that unorganized and "figure shit out as we go".

[#1-norm-fan]

Also, Curtis Axel is not nearly in his dad's league, Fan. You stop that.

[Simple Fan]

Mr Perfect oozed charisma. His son does not. Sure, he could be a decent talent in the mid card, but he's not nor has he ever had anything in his skill set to make him better than dad.

I'll have to disagree with all of you. The man is good in the ring and decent enough on the mic to get over. Just wish they'd give him something to do other than the comedy gimmicks.

[#1-norm-fan]

Good in the ring and "decent enough" on the mic but better than his dad? Even if I agreed with that assessment of his skills, that would still be blasphemy. Maybe even more so. Are you sure you're not confusing Mr. Perfect with Shawn Stasiak or something?

[Simple Fan]

Nope, just think that their is something in Axel. Him saying he was better than per feet was great because it draws heat towards him. I know he's not at his dads level was just using his catchphrase. But given the chance I don't see why he couldn't.

[Damian Rey]

Because you can't teach charisma, that's why. It's the one thing he clearly lacks and no catchphrase or awesome theme music would change that.

I agree he could be a viable commodity but he's nothing more than a mid card act, at best. Nothing wrong with it but it is all he could ever be.

[Simple Fan]

Was Perfect anymore than that? The way he debuted was so great if they would have ran with that longer we could be talking about a WWE champ here.

[Stickman]

Did I just read that Axle Hennig or whateverthe fuck his horriblename is could be as good as his Hof'er dad. Get real. I've never seen him sink every basket, bowl a perfect game or throw himself a hail mary.

[McLegend]

Lol what sons are actually better than their Fathers?

The Rock, Randy Orton, and ?

There has to be others.

[Damian Rey]

Bret and Owen Hart, Jake Roberts, Mr. Perfect, Randy fucking Savage.

[McLegend]

Eddie Guerrero as well.

Either way I was trying to make a point that usually the children of really good wrestlers aren't going to be as good their Father's. Curtis Axel would fall into that realm.

[Simple Fan]

Well I'll take the mantle as Curtis Axel's only fan.

[Bad News Gertner]

Rybaxel for life nigga

[XL]

December To Dismember

Sandwiched between Survivor Series a week before, and Armageddon 2 weeks later, the first and last standalone ECW PPV (that wasn't a ONS event) was the moment that ECW as any remnant of the original company ended.

Most the card wasn't announced beforehand, and seriously, who wanted 3 PPV events in a month!?

The Main Event Hardcore Elimination Chamber made so many missteps with the "wrong" guy going over in Lashley.

Heyman was relieved of his duties as a direct result of this shit-storm, and we got WWECW as a result. The newly structured show which became a feeder show and eventually led to NXT was in itself great, but it wasn't ECW.

[Big Vic]

I liked Curtis Axel, and I liked AxelMania.

[The CyNick]

No. Not gonna let you try to actually reason that. lol

It was horrific writing and the fact that the girls involved weren't good (Surprise, genius writers! The Bellas can't act!) doesn't excuse them from actually finding a way out of it instead of just "Okay, friends now." It's retarded writing. And it's quite normal for WWE to be that unorganized and "figure shit out as we go".

I dunno, I dont disagree with you. At the same time, my brother and I would occasionally get into a scuffle, and then be laughing about it 10 minutes later.

[The CyNick]

I'll have to disagree with all of you. The man is good in the ring and decent enough on the mic to get over. Just wish they'd give him something to do other than the comedy gimmicks.

He's not decent enough on the mic to get over. If he was, he would be over. He was death on the mic. His ring work is basically opening card level, it hasnt improved.

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>Gotta love Seth Rollins starring in his role in "the champion who jobs constantly." And how about those segments every week where Triple H just appears to be a disappointed dad. That sure did put the champion of the company over.

Yeah that Rock/Cena feud was legendary. I loved watching one of the people in the feud cut promos live "via satellite" constantly. Nevermind building an entire WrestleMania on the premise of "ONCE IN A LIFETIME!" when they already knew they were going to do a rematch at WM29.

I'll grant you Lesnar to a degree, I don't think they'd have had him break the Streak if they weren't planning on putting the strap on him at SummerSlam, which they then did. Too bad they really didn't make his first one-on-one defeat after breaking the streak mean anything and he instead just gave a win back to Taker.

And there you go again pretending that Daniel Bryan main eventing WrestleMania 30 was planned for months and months dating back to SummerSlam and not at all a result of the fans completely rejecting the Batista/Orton main event they were going to be force-fed. That's cute.</font>

Not quite as you believing that the YES Movement was something WWE tried to stop. You know, by constantly talking about it, and focusing the camera on the entire crowd doing it to teach future crowds to do it. In fact you're being so cute right now, I want to pinch your cheeks.

Rock-Cena I believe was the biggest PPV draw in wrestling history. But okay, you didnt dig it.

Rollins may not have been booked how you liked it, but if you look at his story arc, it was clear they planned his ascension for well over a year.

[Simple Fan]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7EE5AUNT1JTuLszJKdacR5LKSa0sm6az_u_SJmMswqUj34seV-g

[Big Vic]

I dunno, I dont disagree with you. At the same time, my brother and I would occasionally get into a scuffle, and then be laughing about it 10 minutes later.
So your brother would help someone beat you up, say he wish you died, pour food and drink on you, beat you up himself, and humiliate you on national television and ten minutes later you would laugh about it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Not quite as you believing that the YES Movement was something WWE tried to stop. You know, by constantly talking about it, and focusing the camera on the entire crowd doing it to teach future crowds to do it. In fact you're being so cute right now, I want to pinch your cheeks.

Rock-Cena I believe was the biggest PPV draw in wrestling history. But okay, you didnt dig it.

Rollins may not have been booked how you liked it, but if you look at his story arc, it was clear they planned his ascension for well over a year.

Mmmm hmmmmmmm

[Simple Fan]

He's not decent enough on the mic to get over. If he was, he would be over. He was death on the mic. His ring work is basically opening card level, it hasnt improved.

If his ring work was so bad why have him be the one to get Brock and The Rock back in ring shape when they return? Those guys are not going to train with someone who doesn't know what they're doing. As far as his mic work its, how's it death? His Better than Perfect gimmick drew heat and he was a heel. That's what heels do right? The Hogan stuff was dumb but he nailed it. A lot of people think the talent today is not as good as in the past but I disagree. The guys to day are way more talented in the ring just don't have the freedom that past generations had.

[Big Vic]

I think Axel is perfect being the guy who sucks that doesn't know that he sucks, sure that means he'll always be low card but it's good to be on that card than not at all, they should put him on TV again.

Wish they gave him a mini push for the ATG Battle Royal, there was a "preview" battle royal that Mark Henry won like 2 weeks before Mania, Axel should have gotten that win.

[Evil Vito]

Not quite as you believing that the YES Movement was something WWE tried to stop. You know, by constantly talking about it, and focusing the camera on the entire crowd doing it to teach future crowds to do it. In fact you're being so cute right now, I want to pinch your cheeks.

Rock-Cena I believe was the biggest PPV draw in wrestling history. But okay, you didnt dig it.

Rollins may not have been booked how you liked it, but if you look at his story arc, it was clear they planned his ascension for well over a year.

:lol::lol::lol:

<font color=goldenrod>CyNick for Wrestling Forum Poster of the Year</font>

[The CyNick]

So your brother would help someone beat you up, say he wish you died, pour food and drink on you, beat you up himself, and humiliate you on national television and ten minutes later you would laugh about it.

Bros before hoes

[Big Vic]

That doesn't apply to that situation in the slightest, nice try.

[The CyNick]

If his ring work was so bad why have him be the one to get Brock and The Rock back in ring shape when they return? Those guys are not going to train with someone who doesn't know what they're doing. As far as his mic work its, how's it death? His Better than Perfect gimmick drew heat and he was a heel. That's what heels do right? The Hogan stuff was dumb but he nailed it. A lot of people think the talent today is not as good as in the past but I disagree. The guys to day are way more talented in the ring just don't have the freedom that past generations had.

Being a bump machine is different than working a style to headline.

You can give a guy a great gimmick, but if he doesn't connect with the audience, it's death. I don't watch every minute of every show, but I never recall Axel standing out.

Physically guys today are infinitely more talented than even guys 10 years ago. But you can be able to do a backflip with your eyes closed but not understand how to bring a crowd up and down through the course of a match.

[The CyNick]

That doesn't apply to that situation in the slightest, nice try.

I know. Look everything on TV is exaggerated. Plenty of TV shows or movies will have something happen between characters and then they work it out. I agree it could have and realistically should have been explained better on TV. But I really think they saw the angle as a failure and just wanted to hit the rest button. It's not ideal, but at least Nikki became a stud out of it.

[BigCrippyZ]

Not quite as you believing that the YES Movement was something WWE tried to stop. You know, by constantly talking about it, and focusing the camera on the entire crowd doing it to teach future crowds to do it. In fact you're being so cute right now, I want to pinch your cheeks.


Again, I can't tell if you're trolling by continually changing your argument or maybe you just need to learn reading comprehension. No one has said WWE tried to stop or didn't embrace or acknowledge the YES movement once it took off. Especially after fans shit on Batista and the Rumble finish that year.

That doesn't mean that WWE planned or expected for the YES movement and Daniel Bryan to become as big as they did beforehand. It's definitely not proof that they planned all along to put Bryan in the main event at WM.

[The CyNick]

Again, I can't tell if you're trolling by continually changing your argument or maybe you just need to learn reading comprehension. No one has said WWE tried to stop or didn't embrace or acknowledge the YES movement once it took off. Especially after fans shit on Batista and the Rumble finish that year.

That doesn't mean that WWE planned or expected for the YES movement and Daniel Bryan to become as big as they did beforehand. It's definitely not proof that they planned all along to put Bryan in the main event at WM.

The proof is how he was booked after that Summerslam. Read my other posts on the subject I've covered it in great detail.

I'll sum up my position this way - I've seen WWE book a guy they didn't want to reach the stars. I've seen them book a guy they wanted to reach the stars. Bryan was closer to the latter than the former.

[Simple Fan]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJUT_yj6nIOcJ7hus0J_VEpdcjcRbUsq_KQh9BqBwi4zOdOT2o

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The proof is how he was booked after that Summerslam. Read my other posts on the subject I've covered it in great detail.

I'll sum up my position this way - I've seen WWE book a guy they didn't want to reach the stars. I've seen them book a guy they wanted to reach the stars. Bryan was closer to the latter than the former.

Mmmmmmm hmmmmmmm

[#1-norm-fan]

Look everything on TV is exaggerated. Plenty of TV shows or movies will have something happen between characters and then they work it out.

I've honestly never seen another situation in any form of scripted entertainment where two people in the middle of a heated feud seemingly became best friends again off-camera between episodes with no explanation...

Because that would be some all-time horrible writing and outside of WWE currently, even the trashiest, shittiest TV shows and movies have higher writing standards than that.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But fan, you just don't have the deep understanding of wrestling's creative that cynick does. He is the pulse of Vince Mcmahons brain.

[Evil Vito]

I've honestly never seen another situation in any form of scripted entertainment where two people in the middle of a heated feud seemingly became best friends again off-camera between episodes with no explanation...

Because that would be some all-time horrible writing and outside of WWE currently, even the trashiest, shittiest TV shows and movies have higher writing standards than that.

<font color=goldenrod>If the current writers were writing in 1999, Austin and The Rock would have been hugging it out and high fiving each other a week after Backlash 1999.

Even long after they were done feuding, they ALWAYS seemed to tease tension between each other even when they had to team up. When they were both faces, you could sense they had respect for one another despite their bravado but they were still far from friends.

In fact you could say the same thing about basically any face Austin aligned with the the Attitude Era. He was "cool" with other faces but never to the degree that faces unite together nowadays. You'd never see that nowadays.</font>

[The CyNick]

But fan, you just don't have the deep understanding of wrestling's creative that cynick does. He is the pulse of Vince Mcmahons brain.

Pulse is an exaggeration. A deep understanding and faith that he knows what he's doing

[Big Vic]

I've honestly never seen another situation in any form of scripted entertainment where two people in the middle of a heated feud seemingly became best friends again off-camera between episodes with no explanation...

Because that would be some all-time horrible writing and outside of WWE currently, even the trashiest, shittiest TV shows and movies have higher writing standards than that.
Jesse Pinkmin: Whoa Mr. White, why are you hanging out and having a beer with Tuco?

Walter White: Me and Tuco are friends now Jesse.

[The CyNick]

<font color=goldenrod>If the current writers were writing in 1999, Austin and The Rock would have been hugging it out and high fiving each other a week after Backlash 1999.

Even long after they were done feuding, they ALWAYS seemed to tease tension between each other even when they had to team up. When they were both faces, you could sense they had respect for one another despite their bravado but they were still far from friends.

In fact you could say the same thing about basically any face Austin aligned with the the Attitude Era. He was "cool" with other faces but never to the degree that faces unite together nowadays. You'd never see that nowadays.</font>

Cena is a different type of face. More like Hogan in that if you were a face he was cool with you.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Pulse is an exaggeration. A deep understanding and faith that he knows what he's doing

Mmmmm hmmmmmm

[Lock Jaw]

CyNick has faith in McMahon.... he was converted during that whole feud vs. HBK & God....

[Damian Rey]

Hey guys, did got read Batista's interview where he confirmed he was supposed to be the top face upon his return and insisted otherwise because he knew the fans wouldn't buy it, but Vince and co force fed him anyways? Must've just been protecting kayfabe.

[Simple Fan]

Daniel Bryan even said it.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2117868/wwe-news-daniel-bryan-talks-original-plans-for-wrestlemania-30-says-he-wanted-to-wrestle-shawn-michaels/

[The CyNick]

Jesse Pinkmin: Whoa Mr. White, why are you hanging out and having a beer with Tuco?

Walter White: Me and Tuco are friends now Jesse.

True, nice

[The CyNick]

CyNick has faith in McMahon.... he was converted during that whole feud vs. HBK & God....

You have faith in him too, thats why you have been a fan for a long time, and likely will never stop being a fan.

[Lock Jaw]

I never denied that.

ALL HAIL VINCE MCMAHON

[The CyNick]

Hey guys, did got read Batista's interview where he confirmed he was supposed to be the top face upon his return and insisted otherwise because he knew the fans wouldn't buy it, but Vince and co force fed him anyways? Must've just been protecting kayfabe.

It could be his view on things. Vince could have tried to sell him on coming back by saying we're making you the top face. Fact was that was never going to happen. Even if they did consider putting the title on Batista, it was never going to be a long term thing.

I love how some of you guys think Vince lays all his cards on the table when talking to talent. Its so funny to me.

They likely always had it in mind to include Bryan in the main event, or at the very least was planning to have him chase the title post Mania. Either way they werent pushing him that hard to just have him face Sheamus and go nowhere.

Remember, when Vince wants to depush someone, you know its happening. They only continued to push Bryan stronger month after month. But yes, guys it was the FANS that changed the booking. Hey, there goes Santa Claus!!! How exciting.

[Simple Fan]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRduhi9uvzlw_tkjJ3DnDwMu5UOditxB3h-_VycespB8G73bCIN

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Everything Vince does is the right move. Especially the Flash Funk, that was #1 maneuver by Vince.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

It could be his view on things. Vince could have tried to sell him on coming back by saying we're making you the top face. Fact was that was never going to happen. Even if they did consider putting the title on Batista, it was never going to be a long term thing.

I love how some of you guys think Vince lays all his cards on the table when talking to talent. Its so funny to me.


Yeah we totally think Vince puts all his cards on the table and is forthcoming with talent, what with all the reports from talent saying a lot of the time he tells them one thing and does the other, like most successful high profile business men. It's a good thing your deep understanding of a very basic concept has cleared up our naivety.

You sir are an analytical marvel.

[The CyNick]

Everything Vince does is the right move. Especially the Flash Funk, that was #1 maneuver by Vince.

Going National would be mine.

[The CyNick]

Yeah we totally think Vince puts all his cards on the table and is forthcoming with talent, what with all the reports from talent saying a lot of the time he tells them one thing and does the other, like most successful high profile business men. It's a good thing your deep understanding of a very basic concept has cleared up our naivety.

You sir are an analytical marvel.

I just have to respond to what people say. I make my assertions, people come back with "yeah but Batsista said...". So my point is valid.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I just have to respond to what people say. I make my assertions, people come back with "yeah but Batsista said...". So my point is valid.

well I mean since you're Vince McMahon's confidant you'd have to know what his plans were.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Much like many threads though, this one jumped the shark once CyNick posted in it.

[#1-norm-fan]

So CyNick has run out of ways to actually defend the product and now he's basing it all on some kind of a religious blind faith that Vince always knows what he's doing even if it's demonstrably wrong.

Well this is gonna make explaining the faults in his logic less fun.

[#1-norm-fan]

"Having the champion lose the title on a PPV and then having him come out the next night on Raw with the title as if he never lost it because they changed their minds and hit the 'reset' button is really bad writing."

"Yeah, but I have faith in Vince McMahon. So it's fine."

"Oh... Okay..."

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Well you see.... Vince started Wrestlemania so therefore everything he does is the right move.

[#1-norm-fan]

In the beginning there was WW(W)E(F)...

[Anybody Thrilla]

Rosie O'Donnell v. Donald Trump on Raw. Fuck WWE for that. Unforgivable.

[The CyNick]

Much like many threads though, this one jumped the shark once CyNick posted in it.

I make these threads important. I was lurking here for a while. Place was dead. Now is lively, well the threads Im involved in anyway.

[The CyNick]

So CyNick has run out of ways to actually defend the product and now he's basing it all on some kind of a religious blind faith that Vince always knows what he's doing even if it's demonstrably wrong.

Well this is gonna make explaining the faults in his logic less fun.

The funny thing about that comment is that I always have facts to back up my claims, but you guys follow the teachings of your IWC Gods and regurgitate whatever they say.

[The CyNick]

"Having the champion lose the title on a PPV and then having him come out the next night on Raw with the title as if he never lost it because they changed their minds and hit the 'reset' button is really bad writing."

"Yeah, but I have faith in Vince McMahon. So it's fine."

"Oh... Okay..."

Did this really happen? Or are you hearing voices again?

[The CyNick]

Well you see.... Vince started Wrestlemania so therefore everything he does is the right move.

Nope, but he's the most successful (by a long shot) in hisi ndustry, so when there's a tie, I give him the benefit of the doubt. You give the benefit of the doubt to ten guys on a message board and a guy who can't get his point across in less than 25,000 words.

[BigCrippyZ]

The funny thing about that comment is that I always have facts to back up my claims, but you guys follow the teachings of your IWC Gods and regurgitate whatever they say.

:lol:

Facts? The only facts I've seen you post are things like who won a number of matches in a particular feud from 15-20 years ago. Otherwise, it's all speculation on your part (i.e., Vince doesn't tell talent everything regarding plans, the product is good because you're enjoying and revenues are up, we're all uninformed and overly critical, etc.)

In fairness, almost everyone here is speculating on things. Except for the facts like the actual ratings and the statements from talent that are often referenced as evidence that WWE's product, writing and planning is horrible at the moment and has been for quite a while.

Of course, when you're presented with those types of facts, you speculate and then discount them as rumor or irrelevant. All because of your belief that WWE's product is good and everything is fine because Vince is in charge and can essentially do no wrong.

[Rammsteinmad]

I make these threads important. I was lurking here for a while. Place was dead. Now is lively, well the threads Im involved in anyway.

Probably coz the product is pretty much dead right now. Another genius marvel from the great Vince McMahon.

P.S. Cesaro for WWE Champion!

[The CyNick]

Probably coz the product is pretty much dead right now. Another genius marvel from the great Vince McMahon.

P.S. Cesaro for WWE Champion!

Should have 100k people in Dallas

Network subs are north of a million

Record interest in advertisers

Could be the biggest revenue generating year of all time

Bleak

[The CyNick]

:lol:

Facts? The only facts I've seen you post are things like who won a number of matches in a particular feud from 15-20 years ago. Otherwise, it's all speculation on your part (i.e., Vince doesn't tell talent everything regarding plans, the product is good because you're enjoying and revenues are up, we're all uninformed and overly critical, etc.)

In fairness, almost everyone here is speculating on things. Except for the facts like the actual ratings and the statements from talent that are often referenced as evidence that WWE's product, writing and planning is horrible at the moment and has been for quite a while.

Of course, when you're presented with those types of facts, you speculate and then discount them as rumor or irrelevant. All because of your belief that WWE's product is good and everything is fine because Vince is in charge and can essentially do no wrong.

The biggest indicator of success of the product are business indicators. Those are up.

Whether or not you or I are enjoying is irrelevant, it's personal taste. No point of arguing the point. But my whole thing is the absurdity of people who dedicate so much time week in and week to watch and then discuss something they clearly hate.

I'm not going to get into why I know what I say about Vince is accurate, but since you like using wrestlers as sources of info, listen to what guys say in shoot interviews. Vince keeps a tight inner circle. You don't always know what is happening until the last minute. I think Roman Reigns was quoted as saying he didn't know the Mania booking until the weekend of. But people will ignore that quote when I say how is possible Dave Bautista didn't know the full details of Mania plans for his angle months in advance.

People like treating Vince like he's this out of touch tyrant. When in reality if he was a baseball player he would be hitting .700 while all his competitors are hitting a buck and a quarter.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Nope, but he's the most successful (by a long shot) in hisi ndustry, so when there's a tie, I give him the benefit of the doubt. You give the benefit of the doubt to ten guys on a message board and a guy who can't get his point across in less than 25,000 words.

The thing is you don't know my actual opinion fully. I just have my opinion on your hilarious nuthuggery

[Rammsteinmad]

Should have 100k people in Dallas

Network subs are north of a million

Record interest in advertisers

Could be the biggest revenue generating year of all time

Bleak

You forgot to mention the impressively high ratings of their flagship show.

[#1-norm-fan]

The funny thing about that comment is that I always have facts to back up my claims, but you guys follow the teachings of your IWC Gods and regurgitate whatever they say.

Is that why you had to resort to "faith" on the last page when you couldn't even think of any other bullshit logic to back up your claim. GREAT fact there.

[Stickman]

Mae Youngs granny titties floppy around was pretty much the last time anybody wanted puppies.

[Simple Fan]

The biggest indicator of success of the product are business indicators. Those are up.

Whether or not you or I are enjoying is irrelevant, it's personal taste. No point of arguing the point. But my whole thing is the absurdity of people who dedicate so much time week in and week to watch and then discuss something they clearly hate.

I'm not going to get into why I know what I say about Vince is accurate, but since you like using wrestlers as sources of info, listen to what guys say in shoot interviews. Vince keeps a tight inner circle. You don't always know what is happening until the last minute. I think Roman Reigns was quoted as saying he didn't know the Mania booking until the weekend of. But people will ignore that quote when I say how is possible Dave Bautista didn't know the full details of Mania plans for his angle months in advance.

People like treating Vince like he's this out of touch tyrant. When in reality if he was a baseball player he would be hitting .700 while all his competitors are hitting a buck and a quarter.


No one is saying that WWE is not successful. They have built a brand and that's what sells the product. If WWE is coming to town people are going to go see it and take their families out to it. On name alone they are successful, take the network for example its main draw besides Specials are old PPVs that built the WW(W)E(F) brand. All we are saying is that at times a storyline or two just suck and giving our opinion of what should have happened. None of us are claiming WWE is going out of business or anything just that Vince is a little out of touch.

Also
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQK6WnoXfgG-0Nlgi3yL0EilN-YVML-v3ur5COLptf9S9v_-kAc

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Simple Fan hits the nail on the head

[BigCrippyZ]

I'm not going to get into why I know what I say about Vince is accurate, but since you like using wrestlers as sources of info, listen to what guys say in shoot interviews. Vince keeps a tight inner circle. You don't always know what is happening until the last minute. I think Roman Reigns was quoted as saying he didn't know the Mania booking until the weekend of. But people will ignore that quote when I say how is possible Dave Bautista didn't know the full details of Mania plans for his angle months in advance.

You're right, Reigns probably didn't know the Mania booking until the weekend of because the outcome of the match hadn't been decided upon yet. Same thing with Batista.

Batista likely didn't know the FULL details of Mania plans for his angle months in advance because they hadn't decided on them, especially the outcome of Batista's WM match and what the final card would look like after the Rumble got shit on. Batista was probably told before signing his deal that the plan was for him to main event WM as the face for the title against Orton but that things could change, especially if Randy or Batista got hurt or they had to call an audible for some reason.

Just because things can change and did isn't proof that the original WM plan wasn't Bryan v. Sheamus in the under card and Batista v Orton in the main event. Just because people aren't told what the plans (or the full details) are until the last minute or that those plans later change doesn't mean the original plans didn't exist and weren't changed at the last minute or at least changed after the originals were made.

So someone who says, "I wasn't told I was going to win a match until the night before," or "I didn't know the full details of my WM angle," that's proof that the disputed original shitty plan didn't exist at all? However, when a talent says "I wasn't even in the original main event plans for WM," that's not proof that there was a different original plan?

That's a logical fallacy and one of the dumbest fucking arguments I've ever heard, and I'm an attorney who's heard a lot of dumb fucking arguments.

[BigCrippyZ]

The biggest indicator of success of the product are business indicators. Those are up.

Again, you change the subject and standards. We're not talking about success, we're talking about quality.

If I produce more and more types of products year after year, if 50% of the primary product that I produce are of poor quality, even if I'm having financial success year after year, that doesn't make my primary product good quality.

[BigCrippyZ]

Whether or not you or I are enjoying is irrelevant, it's personal taste. No point of arguing the point. But my whole thing is the absurdity of people who dedicate so much time week in and week to watch and then discuss something they clearly hate.

So only people who love the product can come on the forums and discuss the product? What about people who love the product but don't actually watch it? Can they come on the forums and discuss? What about people who watch but aren't sure if they like the product currently? Man, that sounds like an awesome forum to visit.

Where exactly do you draw the line?

What about people who think the product is poor but don't watch? For the record, that's the camp I'm in currently. I'll probably start watching again around Rumble time though and continue up through Mania. Football season will be over and I'll be looking for something to watch until the NHL playoffs. There's generally something somewhat entertaining going on during WM and maybe they'll be able to keep my interest this year post WM through the rest of the year.

Point being, if folks who aren't currently enjoying the product shouldn't watch and/or then come to discuss their opinions on the forums, what's the point of the forums?

In fact, you know what, you're right. Let's shut this down. Guys, it's official. We're going to be shutting down the forums. CyNick says if we don't enjoy the product, we shouldn't be watching and/or posting here, so let's shut it down.

[The CyNick]

You forgot to mention the impressively high ratings of their flagship show.

Which is generating more in TV rights fees than ever before.

Another guy taking big hacks at the plate but not making contact.

[The CyNick]

Is that why you had to resort to "faith" on the last page when you couldn't even think of any other bullshit logic to back up your claim. GREAT fact there.

I can always back up my claims with facts. Sometimes i get tired repeating the stuff you lot choose to ignore. Maybe send a snail mail to your heroes and they will tell you what to say.

[Rammsteinmad]

Regardless of your argument, the product is still shite, ratings are still low, and you're still a cunt.

[The CyNick]

No one is saying that WWE is not successful. They have built a brand and that's what sells the product. If WWE is coming to town people are going to go see it and take their families out to it. On name alone they are successful, take the network for example its main draw besides Specials are old PPVs that built the WW(W)E(F) brand. All we are saying is that at times a storyline or two just suck and giving our opinion of what should have happened. None of us are claiming WWE is going out of business or anything just that Vince is a little out of touch.

Also
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQK6WnoXfgG-0Nlgi3yL0EilN-YVML-v3ur5COLptf9S9v_-kAc

No no no

The people on here I go back and forth with the most are the guys who saying everything sucks. Who say Vince is out of touch. Who live off a TWO PERCENT decline is ratings to TRY to hammer home a point.

That much different than someone saying I enjoyed 75% off RAW but 25% missed the mark for me.

[Simple Fan]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRM4jUdYL2eVDu5h6izzTc51r_IY3tpDUQIQDRThEShwmuP6256mA

[The CyNick]

Again, you change the subject and standards. We're not talking about success, we're talking about quality.

If I produce more and more types of products year after year, if 50% of the primary product that I produce are of poor quality, even if I'm having financial success year after year, that doesn't make my primary product good quality.

You would think someone who is intelligent enough to become an attorney would understand that quality is in the eye of the individual. It's not something you can really quantify. Again, i feel silly pointing that out because am attorney such as yourself who has been in so many cases would understand that difference.

WWE generates most of their revenue on things that people buy over and over (tickets, merch, network subs). If the perceived quality of the product was so low those metrics would be in massive decline. Yet if you look at WWEs revenue, the paying fan is telling them the product is good. If it wasn't WWE would have empty buildings. Instead they will sell close to 100k tickets for one show! Those people are not buying tickets based on what the product was like 15 years ago, that would be silly. Clearly they like the ptoduct today.

[The CyNick]

Regardless of your argument, the product is still shite, ratings are still low, and you're still a cunt.

3rd most watched thing on cable on Monday. Low is relative.

[#1-norm-fan]

I can always back up my claims with facts. Sometimes i get tired repeating the stuff you lot choose to ignore.

...

Look everything on TV is exaggerated. Plenty of TV shows or movies will have something happen between characters and then they work it out.

I've honestly never seen another situation in any form of scripted entertainment where two people in the middle of a heated feud seemingly became best friends again off-camera between episodes with no explanation...

Because that would be some all-time horrible writing and outside of WWE currently, even the trashiest, shittiest TV shows and movies have higher writing standards than that.

You gonna actually state some of those super cool CyNick facts eventually or no? I know "avoid addressing it and it will go away" has worked for you a lot but this thread might not die out soon and you might have to actually formulate some kind of a new ridiculous logic to make WWE seem like it's not booked by the mentally handicapped.

[Simple Fan]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUrBMQyxGwD14nSNoIhTCw0vBY3EmbKSyfF1WePUsUd5v3jNbqWw

[The CyNick]

So only people who love the product can come on the forums and discuss the product? What about people who love the product but don't actually watch it? Can they come on the forums and discuss? What about people who watch but aren't sure if they like the product currently? Man, that sounds like an awesome forum to visit.

Where exactly do you draw the line?

What about people who think the product is poor but don't watch? For the record, that's the camp I'm in currently. I'll probably start watching again around Rumble time though and continue up through Mania. Football season will be over and I'll be looking for something to watch until the NHL playoffs. There's generally something somewhat entertaining going on during WM and maybe they'll be able to keep my interest this year post WM through the rest of the year.

Point being, if folks who aren't currently enjoying the product shouldn't watch and/or then come to discuss their opinions on the forums, what's the point of the forums?

In fact, you know what, you're right. Let's shut this down. Guys, it's official. We're going to be shutting down the forums. CyNick says if we don't enjoy the product, we shouldn't be watching and/or posting here, so let's shut it down.

People can bang their head against the wall for 6 hours a day if they enjoy it. I will just look at that person and think hmmm you would think that would be annoying and they would just stop. But hey if being disappointed time in and time out is what turns your crank, cool, no skin off my back.

[The CyNick]

...





You gonna actually state some of those super cool CyNick facts eventually or no? I know "ignore it and it will go away" has worked for you a lot but this thread might not die out soon and you might have to actually formulate some kind of a new ridiculous logic to make WWE seem like it's not booked by the mentally handicapped.

Read the majority of my posts Corny

[#1-norm-fan]

Seriously? You're sticking with the "if I assert that I responded with a fact, then it means I did even though all this shit is right there on the last page to read" strategy? My God...

You forgot to add a "swing and a miss" or something though. That's definitely a great way to at least make yourself feel like you're right without actually having to try to make a cogent point despite the fact that everyone else can just read the thread and see the blatant dodging going on.

[The CyNick]

We'll set up a point counterpoint one day. Maybe we can do it on a podcast, and you can have all the Negative Nelly's from the IWC tweet in say you were right and CyNick is a dope. That will make you feel good, right?

[Simple Fan]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQekLjIKKrOAUoUHzQYqo7CX0ISdTpVcw7gI_WCeJ2rKlRmTnSJgg

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

We'll set up a point counterpoint one day. Maybe we can do it on a podcast, and you can have all the Negative Nelly's from the IWC tweet in say you were right and CyNick is a dope. That will make you feel good, right?

Lol well let's get serious here. That's your wet dream