Jim Cornette / Mick Foley

[slik]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Joey Ryan uses his penis to block Mr. Socko and flip <a href="https://twitter.com/RealMickFoley">@RealMickFoley</a> at <a href="https://twitter.com/OTT_wrestling">@OTT_wrestling</a> in Dublin, Ireland. <a href="https://t.co/sq9kZ6l6ZB">pic.twitter.com/sq9kZ6l6ZB</a></p>&mdash; Joey Ryan (@JoeyRyanOnline) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline/status/894027334797451264">August 6, 2017</a></blockquote>
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[SlickyTrickyDamon]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Joey Ryan uses his penis to block Mr. Socko and flip <a href="https://twitter.com/RealMickFoley">@RealMickFoley</a> at <a href="https://twitter.com/OTT_wrestling">@OTT_wrestling</a> in Dublin, Ireland. <a href="https://t.co/sq9kZ6l6ZB">pic.twitter.com/sq9kZ6l6ZB</a></p>&mdash; Joey Ryan (@JoeyRyanOnline) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline/status/894027334797451264">August 6, 2017</a></blockquote>
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ffs Mick. :nono:

[Sixx]

Ummm. does this guy seriously wrestle with his penis?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Well he can't wrestle which is why he does this bullshit.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Would rather watch Roman Reigns super man punch every move for 30 minutes than watch one minute of Joey Dickspot.

[Black Widow]

Would rather watch Roman Reigns super man punch every move for 30 minutes than watch one minute of Joey Dickspot.One of the dumbest Fucking things I've ever seen!

[DaveWadding]

STD is just mad that his dick is too small for spots like that.

[DaveWadding]

Joey Ryan's Dong is the REAL Universal Champion

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Std thinks he is jim cornette

[Vastardikai]

If Ryan wrestled New Jack, and no sold the cheese grater to the junk spot, I think Mass Transit and Gypsy Joe incidents would end up looking tame.

[Lock Jaw]

Good to see Mick Foley doing physically well after his surgery and all his yoga and eating right.......

Was a time not so long ago where he would not have been able to move and take a bump like that.......

[Sixx]

From main eventing WWE PPVs to being thrown around by some loser's cock...

[Lock Jaw]

A payday is a payday!

[Evil Vito]

Hope Joey Ryan keeps doing that with his dick. Hope the Young Bucks keep doing 5 million flips and Superkicks. Hope Kenny Omega keeps pulling funny faces.

There is nothing in wrestling that makes me laugh more nowadays than people ranting and raving about comedy wresting ruining the business like old men yelling at clouds. Especially because they never ever have the balls to just stop watching something that upsets them so much.

[#1-norm-fan]

The Young Bucks don't really fall under the "comedy wrestling" umbrella. They're just really bad.

[Maluco]

Hope Joey Ryan keeps doing that with his dick. Hope the Young Bucks keep doing 5 million flips and Superkicks. Hope Kenny Omega keeps pulling funny faces.

There is nothing in wrestling that makes me laugh more nowadays than people ranting and raving about comedy wresting ruining the business like old men yelling at clouds. Especially because they never ever have the balls to just stop watching something that upsets them so much.

I have stopped watching wrestling completely, and have been done for about 4 months. The only think I watch are podcasts about older shows from time to time. I don't even look up results now. Still enjoy taking about it from time to time though, especially older stuff.

I would say the reason you are talking about it is not directly why I stopped, it's more because it is so boring, tedious and repetitive and there isn't a star in sight in WWE. No big matches, no major angles. Just two guys sharing wins for 3-4 months and then parting ways.

People like wrestling for different things though and there comes the disconnect. I always liked the suspension of disbelief and a rivalry building until you just had to see the match. One of my favourites was Bret Hart because aside from being great to watch he would do things little things like mouth "fuck" after a loss on TV. So easy to suspend disbelief when someone does so many little things to make it seem real. Some would argue he took it too seriously, but it helped his art.

HBK was another one. So many memorable moments like his comeback against HHH and the Flair Mania match. Proper emotion in wrestling were what made special moments for me. It's like a soap opera in many ways. I want to be taken for a ride by a cool story with twists and turns and the emotion of a big match that goes along with it.

I quit because it is boring nonsense now and the technical quality of matches wasn't enough to save it. But the stuff you are talking about contributes to the loss of that side of things for me. It might be fun to some people, but it makes a mockery of it all for me. Makes me feel stupid for watching and makes the whole thing feel pointless.

So yeah, they can continue to do these things and they will always have some sort of audience that has a good time watching it, but I would argue that there are also a lot of fans like myself who see wrestling the way I do, and stuff like this just contributes to the way the landscape is today. Some may think it's fun, but it's ok not to like the way things are going too

[Sixx]

Hope Joey Ryan keeps doing that with his dick. Hope the Young Bucks keep doing 5 million flips and Superkicks. Hope Kenny Omega keeps pulling funny faces.

There is nothing in wrestling that makes me laugh more nowadays than people ranting and raving about comedy wresting ruining the business like old men yelling at clouds. Especially because they never ever have the balls to just stop watching something that upsets them so much.

I don't mind comedy in wrestling, not at all. I just think this particular "comedy act" is fucking awful and not funny at all. Sends embarrassment shivers down my spine.

[Evil Vito]

I dunno, I think there's a lot of meta comedy there. The Bucks had always been speedy spot type workers but never to the degree they are now. Once their TNA run ended and they noticed a sizable people complaining about there being too many "spot monkeys" on the indies they just decided to go whole hog with it and openly take the piss out of it. To their credit any show I've been to with them on it they've gotten by far the most heat.

Could they do better? Probably not - how they were in TNA is likely how they would be in WWE. No real reason to do that when NJPW/ROH pay them a good wage to do an act filled with in-jokes.

But again I'm not someone that cares about the "sanctity of wrestling" or SERIOUS BUSINESS or whatever. I think unique comedy stuff has a place just as technical masterpieces, and violent brawls do.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

well said vito

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I have no issue with Cornette being a crank about it... I mean the guy actually paid his dues in wrestling, so I understand his hard stance even though it's a bit much. But someone like STD who's just some fucking neckbeard mark, who if he ever took a bump would literally defecate in his pants just copying Cornette's stance is retarded.

[Jordan]

The Bucks are amazing live. I saw them early on, one of their first ROH matches around 2010 maybe earlier.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They make a fuck ton of money. People who give them shit are a bunch of babies. Not nec. my cup of tea but the results speak for themselves.

[Evil Vito]

I should clarify something - I'm okay with people not liking comedy wrestling or whatever just as I'm okay with people not liking extreme violent matches or any other genre you could think of. "Nah, I'm not into this but people like what they like" is totally fine.

I just think we're at a point where it's fruitless to waste energy and effort railing on wrestling you don't like and the fans that do like it when there is so, SO Much different wrestling out there nowadays. Between WWE, NJPW, ROH, LU, CHIKARA, the various British promotions, Mexican promotions, and lolGFW there is just so fucking much out there and they all play to different palettes.

There is enough wrestling out there that I'd say if you aren't watching something you love - you're doing it wrong. With WWE in particular I've found a lot of people are afraid of expanding their horizons - well if the top company in the world sucks, it must all suck. No.

Hence I want to see the comedy guys keep doing their thing because it's amusing to me to see people bitch about it when those people could watch something they actually enjoy from the many options out there.

We all only have so much time to devote to watching wrestling. Watch what you actually enjoy and let others have their fun.

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't even think the Young Bucks' superkicks and flips are as egregious as the crotch chops. They're basically backyard wrestlers from the late 90's who never grew up. And I don't buy that it's really just some genius meta-comedy. It's lame and un-creative. They are just the worst.

[#1-norm-fan]

I was doing the "ironically mimicking real wrestlers" thing when I was e-fedding at 15. I wasn't a genius ahead of my time. I was just being creatively lazy.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Hope Joey Ryan keeps doing that with his dick. Hope the Young Bucks keep doing 5 million flips and Superkicks. Hope Kenny Omega keeps pulling funny faces.

There is nothing in wrestling that makes me laugh more nowadays than people ranting and raving about comedy wresting ruining the business like old men yelling at clouds. Especially because they never ever have the balls to just stop watching something that upsets them so much.

This is the equivalent of saying don't listen to music if you don't like Weird Al. I don't watch or buy Joey Ryan merch or watch shows he is a part of.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Don't like ultra violent matches either. Unless it is to blow off an angle that has been built up but still has to be done as safely as possible. No CZW tournament of death light bulb bullshit.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

If I could make 6 figures for being an uncreative backyard wrestler I'd do it.

[Simple Fan]

Yeah, say whwt you want about the Young Bucks but the guys have the indies figured out. They can have a good match given the right opponent and their not calling the match. As far as their mimicking goes it seems to work with that crowd who are mostly attitude era fans. Japanese eat up as well.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They aren't "killing the business". They are just a niche of the business as was bound to happen over time.

If anything has killed it mainstream it's Vince putting on an unexciting television show 85% of the time from b/w July 2001-now

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

That's not a reply to Simple Plan, just the marks who think they're killing wrestling.

[#1-norm-fan]

If I could make 6 figures for being an uncreative backyard wrestler I'd do it.

There's plenty of ways to make money without being talented. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is big business.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But I mean they're obviously talented. That's what separates them from a lot of people

[#1-norm-fan]

They're athletic. That's about it.

[#1-norm-fan]

They use the crotch chop as a signature taunt, FFS. In 2017. In "professional" wrestling companies. lol

[Fignuts]

They're athletic. That's about it.

And creative. They're not my cup of tea either, but credit whre credig is due. They come up with a lot of cool shit.

[#1-norm-fan]

... Crotch chop...

[#1-norm-fan]

If you wanna consider them "comedy wrestling", then they are to comedy wrestling what The Great Khali is to technical wrestling.

[Fignuts]

This is the equivalent of saying don't listen to music if you don't like Weird Al. I don't watch or buy Joey Ryan merch or watch shows he is a part of.

He means stop watching joey ryan clips, not wrestling altogether.

[Destor]

Are the young bucks hacks? Yes. Have they found a market? Yes.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Hmm funny how many pro wrestlers, particularly those who employed the crotch chop are totally okay with it and see it as an homage which it is. It's what they grew up on and got them into wrestling. We talk about wrestling being organic, and think about it, if you grew up loving the attitude era and nWo you'd be doing the too sweet wolfpack shit and suck it. It's about as organic as it gets.

They've wrestled in the tokyo dome sold out, they make tons of dough, they get big pops. You may just be a hater Fan.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

i should fact check that tokyo dome stat, totally pulled it out of my ass lmfao

[Destor]

As long they buy tickets *shrug*

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

We talk about wrestling being organic, and think about it, if you grew up loving the attitude era and nWo you'd be doing the too sweet wolfpack shit and suck it. It's about as organic as it gets.



Should explain that better. If you're whole schtick is kind of spotfest backyard monkies who are HUGE MARKS for wrestling, then why wouldn't you be doing all that shit. It's very apparent they haven't lost that 12-year-old fanboy feeling for wrestling which in many ways is refreshing. Part of being like that is spamming all the cool shit. Makes complete sense IMO.

And for Destor THAT MOTHERFUCKER who is always crediting the wwe's booking for being Meta, I feel like he would respect Young Bucks.

Don't even think Destor disagrees with me on this but fuck that guy

[#1-norm-fan]

Hmm funny how many pro wrestlers, particularly those who employed the crotch chop are totally okay with it and see it as an homage which it is. It's what they grew up on and got them into wrestling. We talk about wrestling being organic, and think about it, if you grew up loving the attitude era and nWo you'd be doing the too sweet wolfpack shit and suck it. It's about as organic as it gets.

They've wrestled in the tokyo dome sold out, they make tons of dough, they get big pops. You may just be a hater Fan.

The guys who originally did the crotch chop being okay with it has nothing to do with it being uncreative. If I grew up loving the attitude era and nWo AND became a pro wrestler, I wouldn't be doing the too sweet wolfpack shit and suck it. Because that was already done 20 years ago and it would look retarded to just flat out copy it. Just like the Bucks doing it does.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

What is so retarded about it? Guys rip stuff off all the time.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

like it was 20 years ago. What's wrong with recycling it. Pretty sure nWo stole shit from the freebirds

[Destor]

Yeah but you adapt it, you dont just take exactlty what they did

[Simple Fan]

And creative. They're not my cup of tea either, but credit whre credig is due. They come up with a lot of cool shirts.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

then they would cease to be the young bucks.

[#1-norm-fan]

There's a difference between "stealing shit" with ambiguity, maybe adding a slightly different spin on it and making it your own and LITERALLY just copying what someone else already did in a way that leaves no question.

Like I said, I was doing the "blatantly rip off actual wrestlers" thing when I was e-fedding at 15. I knew what I was doing. "Hey, I'm just blatantly copying a wrestler I like but you see, it's not just lame and uncreative... because THAT'S the gimmick! SO META, GUYS!" It was retarded and anyone with half a brain could see right through it. I had the excuse of being 15 and not really caring much about e-fedding. The Young Bucks are actual professional wrestlers doing what teenage e-fedders and backyard wrestlers were doing in the 90's.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The Young Bucks are actual professional wrestlers doing what teenage e-fedders and backyard wrestlers were doing in the 90's.

But they can actually work. So therefore, it works. If they were just shitty backyarders or e-fedders, what they're doing wouldn't work at all.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

god dammit fan I keep imaging you as todd pettengil

[Destor]

Heres the realitty: two hacky workers were doing hacky ass shit and by a sheer stroke of luck it got over. Doesnt mean its not hacky as fuck.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

You could even say they're like a band who has their own original material sprinkled in with some covers.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Heres the realitty: two hacky workers were doing hacky ass shit and by a sheer stroke of luck it got over.

Can you prove it was luck?

[Simple Fan]

Yeah but you adapt it, you dont just take exactlty what they did

Is that not what they have done? I mean they are not totally ripping off DX and use the crotch chop to insult opponents. Thats about the only thing from DX that they use. I could understand if they went in to Road Dogg mode or a long HHH like promo asking if you are ready at the end and they did degenerate stuff but they dont.

[Fignuts]

Honestly, the crotch chop and 2 sweet stuff is a minor detail to me. Doesn't irk me at all.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah i don't know how that means "ripping" people off.

Destor is just a mark.

[#1-norm-fan]

Is that not what they have done? I mean they are not totally ripping off DX and use the crotch chop to insult opponents. Thats about the only thing from DX that they use. I could understand if they went in to Road Dogg mode or a long HHH like promo asking if you are ready at the end and they did degenerate stuff but they dont.

The crotch chop is literally ripping off DX. There's no question about it. And no, they have not taken it and adapted it as their own. It's 100% just DX's taunt. The fact that they aren't doing everything else DX did doesn't make them doing their most iconic thing NOT just a blatant rip off. I don't even think The Young Bucks would say "We're not totally ripping off DX." They would just try to excuse it as being an homage.

[#1-norm-fan]

I will agree that they aren't "killing the business" though because outside of hardcore wrestling marks who aren't going anywhere, no one will ever know who the fuck they are and the "90's backyard wrestler" shtick isn't something that has the mainstream appeal to go viral like the dick spot. The business is safe. They're just horrible.

[Simple Fan]

The crotch chop is literally ripping off DX. There's no question about it. And no, they have not taken it and adapted it as their own. It's 100% just DX's taunt. The fact that they aren't doing everything else DX did doesn't make them doing their most iconic thing NOT just a blatant rip off. I don't even think The Young Bucks would say "We're not totally ripping off DX." They would just try to excuse it as being an homage.

How would you adapt a crotch chop as your own? Only chop with one hand? No hands just a thrust?

[#1-norm-fan]

How about not stealing it at all and trying to have an ounce of creativity? Is that not an option?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

HOW DARE YOU SPEAK ILL OF THE BUCKS. oh yeah wait I think I've seen like maybe 4 of their matches.

[Destor]

Is that not what they have done? I mean they are not totally ripping off DX and use the crotch chop to insult opponents. Thats about the only thing from DX that they use. I could understand if they went in to Road Dogg mode or a long HHH like promo asking if you are ready at the end and they did degenerate stuff but they dont.

No that is not in any way what they have done

[Destor]

Its rediculous you would even imply it let alone actually argue it

[Destor]

My issue with the bucks is theyre the wprst offenders of being spot monkies. They don't sell and they just do random moves until someone wins all the while ruining the superkick for the lulz

[#1-norm-fan]

Yeah. All this talk of them just stealing taunts is distracting from the fact that their matches happen to also resemble backyard wrestling spotfests with no sign of storytelling. They even look like they're 16 still.

[Destor]

A young bucks super kick has the same credibility as a headlock

[Sepholio]

Remember when Scott Hall used the crotch chop during the formation of the nWo which was soon followed by the rest of the nWo, WAY before DX ever used it? Damn those DX guys and their lack of creativity.

[Destor]

Yeah. All this talk of them just stealing taunts is distracting from the fact that their matches happen to also resemble backyard wrestling spotfests with no sign of storytelling. They even look like they're 16 still.

They're look is soooooo bad. No one on earth would be intimidated by them

[Simple Fan]

How about not stealing it at all and trying to have an ounce of creativity? Is that not an option?

Im sure it is but what they are doing seems to work just fine, don't see why they'd change now. Creativity is lacking in wrestling across the board and in my opinion NJPW is the best at the moment and rely more on sport than creativity.

[Destor]

Remember when Scott Hall used the crotch chop during the formation of the nWo which was soon followed by the rest of the nWo, WAY before DX ever used it? Damn those DX guys and their lack of creativity.

Both the two sweet and the crotch chop were reallyt Kliq troupes in all fairness

[Sepholio]

Both the two sweet and the crotch chop were reallyt Kliq troupes in all fairness

Indeed, but who used them publicly first? :P

[Destor]

The Klique

[Destor]

Certainly wasnt the bucks or the club, but i have little invested interest in what taunts they use tbf

[Simple Fan]

I'll agree they can't wrestle. Best matches they've been in are ladder matches with the likes of Daniels, Kaz and the Hardy's who probably called the matches. Now I think they could do better in the ring but the crowds they wrestle in front of like their pandering to them with the nostalgic crotch chop and too sweets.

[Rammsteinmad]

I love comedy in wrestling, but I oddly find some things to get boring quickly. Like that Joey Ryan penis stuff. I dunno. It was funny the first time or two, but now I'm just like :-\ when I see videos of it online.

Comedy spots usually tend to just get more and more ridiculous to try and top themselves, but by then it's just gotten old already or it's run it's course.

[Rammsteinmad]

Didn't realize there was another two pages after this one. Are we still talking about comedy in wrestling?

[Destor]

Didn't realize there was another two pages after this one. Are we still talking about comedy in wrestling?

Basically

[Bad News Gertner]

The Joey Ryan stuff is retarded and horrible.

[Shadrick]

The Joey Ryan stuff is retarded and horrible.

I'll suplex you with my dick

[Vastardikai]

I love comedy in wrestling, but I oddly find some things to get boring quickly. Like that Joey Ryan penis stuff. I dunno. It was funny the first time or two, but now I'm just like :-\ when I see videos of it online.

Comedy spots usually tend to just get more and more ridiculous to try and top themselves, but by then it's just gotten old already or it's run it's course.

The first dick spot was funny because he was wrestling Danshoku Dino, an aggressively gay character whose offense REVOLVED around grabbing his opponent's dick, trying to kiss them, etc. That's the ONLY reason why it was funny.

[Bad News Gertner]

Next time Foley cries about being called a whore: tweet him that video. Foley talks out of both sides of his ass constantly.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Mick is very desperate to remain relevant. Part of me feels for him.

[Nicky Fives]

I love Mick, but doing that makes me like him much, much less..... keep that crap for no-names I've never heard of and I won't care....

[DaveWadding]

are you fucking serious? You lost respect for a guy that had a career renaissance based on pulling a fucking decorated tube sock out of his pants and stuffing it in people's mouths because he grabbed a guy's dick and flipped?

[Destor]

are you fucking serious? You lost respect for a guy that had a career renaissance based on pulling a fucking decorated tube sock out of his pants and stuffing it in people's mouths because he grabbed a guy's dick and flipped?

The claw is legit hold

[Destor]

The claw is legit hold

Let me clarify: you wont pass out or what have you but its not as cartoon as the cobra strike for example

[Destor]

It has far more IRL credibility than the stunner does

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't even consider the Joey Ryan dick spots comedy. They aren't funny. A penis having superpowers is below the lowest common denominator. The Young Bucks aren't what I consider funny either. They just suck. People are complacent with their shit, so why would they change? But they fucking suck.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I can't defend Mick Foley anymore. The dude is a whore and it's a damn shame he's fallen as far as he has.

[RP]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Joey Ryan uses his penis to block Mr. Socko and flip <a href="https://twitter.com/RealMickFoley">@RealMickFoley</a> at <a href="https://twitter.com/OTT_wrestling">@OTT_wrestling</a> in Dublin, Ireland. <a href="https://t.co/sq9kZ6l6ZB">pic.twitter.com/sq9kZ6l6ZB</a></p>&mdash; Joey Ryan (@JoeyRyanOnline) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline/status/894027334797451264">August 6, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's retarded. Cant wait to hear what Cornette says about it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He's already commented. He just said "I love Mick Foley, but this shit is ridiculous and it's sad to see someone who has meant something endorse it. Sorry, but that's the truth and Mick needs to hear it." Not verbatim, but something like that. Basically calling Mick out on it like he would anybody.

Mick Foley has also taken to Twitter or Facebook or something and said that the reason he did it was because of all the smiles it put on people's faces. There isn't one person that isn't smiling, apparently. Well, I'm not smiling, Mick. Does my smile mean anything to you?

[Juan]

I've never seen a Young Bucks or Joey Ryan match.

Also, I think I would be more bothered by Foley doing that spot if he was an active wrestler. The dude can barely move and he seems to enjoy "comedy wrestling." Let the man take a dick bump ffs

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think it bothers me more because he shouldn't be bumping given the health he's in. Meh, it's his body. Whatever. I just can't bring myself to emotionally invest in a man that doesn't seem to be that invested in his own reputation.

[Juan]

That ship sailed when he went to TNA

[RP]

Welp! If Mick giving handjobs puts smiles on the fans faces, you gotta do it i guess.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That ship sailed when he went to TNA

Yeah, this isn't Foley's first offense. That's why it's hard to really feel sorry for him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

On the topic of Cornette/Foley, I was just thinking about this on my drive back from work:

I'm not sure if Corny will take it this way, but I think there's a case to make for this being a bit of a personal slight. Maybe that's a bit extreme, but think about it. Let's say I was in the music industry once upon a time, and there was a new producer that was releasing stuff and it was overly simplistic, effortless, and the dude was blocking off real artists from getting gigs. Let's say it's because he uses real simple lyrics and shitty autotune. And whether or not you agree with my assessment of it being tasteless and having a bad effect on live music or not, but that dude then releases a song with a good friend of mine in that exact same vein -- it makes me look like a bit of an asshole, haha.

I mean, I doubt Mick was thinking about Cornette. Maybe Ryan wasn't either. But regardless, it's just a bit...man, it's just a bit disappointing. I would consider whether or not I should feel betrayed by that. I mean, even if my friend didn't feel the same way about the music industry, and felt that autotuned repetitive bullshit wasn't polluting the scene and wasn't hurting more serious artists and making their music harder to find, I would probably not do it on principle. Because it's not like I don't have a back catalogue of stuff, and it's not like I'm not basically retired from the music industry. I'd probably just nix the idea and say "I actually get what you are trying to do, man, but it's just something I can't bring myself to do. But if you've got some young up-and-comer on your album, I'll record proper vocals with them, or something."

I dunno, maybe I'm not thinking realistically. But I actually think Cornette has good cause to feel personally insulted that Foley would work with Ryan. I wouldn't feel the same about Foley doing something with Omega though. I think it's because Omega actually tries now.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyway, right about now seems like the best time to do that SCG Trial of Mick Foley...

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

On the topic of Cornette/Foley, I was just thinking about this on my drive back from work:

I'm not sure if Corny will take it this way, but I think there's a case to make for this being a bit of a personal slight. Maybe that's a bit extreme, but think about it. Let's say I was in the music industry once upon a time, and there was a new producer that was releasing stuff and it was overly simplistic, effortless, and the dude was blocking off real artists from getting gigs. Let's say it's because he uses real simple lyrics and shitty autotune. And whether or not you agree with my assessment of it being tasteless and having a bad effect on live music or not, but that dude then releases a song with a good friend of mine in that exact same vein -- it makes me look like a bit of an asshole, haha.

I mean, I doubt Mick was thinking about Cornette. Maybe Ryan wasn't either. But regardless, it's just a bit...man, it's just a bit disappointing. I would consider whether or not I should feel betrayed by that. I mean, even if my friend didn't feel the same way about the music industry, and felt that autotuned repetitive bullshit wasn't polluting the scene and wasn't hurting more serious artists and making their music harder to find, I would probably not do it on principle. Because it's not like I don't have a back catalogue of stuff, and it's not like I'm not basically retired from the music industry. I'd probably just nix the idea and say "I actually get what you are trying to do, man, but it's just something I can't bring myself to do. But if you've got some young up-and-comer on your album, I'll record proper vocals with them, or something."

I dunno, maybe I'm not thinking realistically. But I actually think Cornette has good cause to feel personally insulted that Foley would work with Ryan. I wouldn't feel the same about Foley doing something with Omega though. I think it's because Omega actually tries now.

What the hell is this post. How are we not supposed to consider you anything more than a Cornette regurgitator/felatiator after this ridiculous post?

[Jordan]

What the hell is this post. How are we not supposed to consider you anything more than a Cornette regurgiator/felatiator after this ridiculous post?

Everyone fucking knows wrestling is as fake as Trumps hair piece. Cornette is a mark and a nerd. Probably hates that Disney owns Star Wars, I bet he thought Rouge One "ruined the franchise". Jim Cornette is good for an annoying voice, but that's it. His online contribution to the EXISTING industry is about as helpful as sandpaper hemeroid wipes.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I enjoy Jim Cornette. Love listening to him rant, and within some of the bullshit he spews, there is sometimes some sense involved. But I don't blindly follow what he says because he knows who Red Bastien is.

[slik]

Jim Cornette doesn't even hate/dislike 99% of the things he claims to. He is just working an audience and getting people talking/interested in the J. Cornette brand.

[Shisen Kopf]

Mick Foley can grab whoever's dick he wants to. He's a legend. It doesn't make the world work but whatever. At least hes not Lex Luger

[Shisen Kopf]

Lex Luger killed miss Elizabeth BTW

[Shisen Kopf]

Never forget that

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Shisen-adding value as usual.

[Destor]

Least he didnt post two black dudes tongue fucking each others fart boxes

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

that's more of an rp thing

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I mean, I doubt Mick was thinking about Cornette. Maybe Ryan wasn't either.

I doubt anyone involved was thinking about Cornette, much like in their usual day to day life.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I hope Noid is relentlessly #PostShamed for that stinker.

[Shisen Kopf]

Shisen-adding value as usual.

What can I say. I've been to 4 Rasslemanias

[#BROKEN Hasney]

They use the crotch chop as a signature taunt, FFS. In 2017. In "professional" wrestling companies. lol

I don't understand the issue here. An evil foreigner is WWE champion. In 2017.

Wrestling rarely evolves with the times.

[Shisen Kopf]

It's PrettyStupid and it's not serious business rasslin but its not supposed to be and anyone who gets worked up over this is a moron.

[screech]

Just watched this. It was dumb, but the crowd seemed to enjoy it. Nothing to get worked up over, really.

This won't ruin my enjoyment of other wrestling. This also won't ruin my enjoyment of Foley. I can watch an old match of his and still be into it. He could also show up on RAW or SD this week and I'd be happy to see him.

You either enjoy this kind of stuff or you don't. Like Vito said, there's plenty of other rasslin out there to watch instead.

[Shisen Kopf]

On the topic of Cornette/Foley, I was just thinking about this on my drive back from work:

I'm not sure if Corny will take it this way, but I think there's a case to make for this being a bit of a personal slight. Maybe that's a bit extreme, but think about it. Let's say I was in the music industry once upon a time, and there was a new producer that was releasing stuff and it was overly simplistic, effortless, and the dude was blocking off real artists from getting gigs. Let's say it's because he uses real simple lyrics and shitty autotune. And whether or not you agree with my assessment of it being tasteless and having a bad effect on live music or not, but that dude then releases a song with a good friend of mine in that exact same vein -- it makes me look like a bit of an asshole, haha.

I mean, I doubt Mick was thinking about Cornette. Maybe Ryan wasn't either. But regardless, it's just a bit...man, it's just a bit disappointing. I would consider whether or not I should feel betrayed by that. I mean, even if my friend didn't feel the same way about the music industry, and felt that autotuned repetitive bullshit wasn't polluting the scene and wasn't hurting more serious artists and making their music harder to find, I would probably not do it on principle. Because it's not like I don't have a back catalogue of stuff, and it's not like I'm not basically retired from the music industry. I'd probably just nix the idea and say "I actually get what you are trying to do, man, but it's just something I can't bring myself to do. But if you've got some young up-and-comer on your album, I'll record proper vocals with them, or something."

I dunno, maybe I'm not thinking realistically. But I actually think Cornette has good cause to feel personally insulted that Foley would work with Ryan. I wouldn't feel the same about Foley doing something with Omega though. I think it's because Omega actually tries now.

No. This is all wrong. Please redo but this time get it right.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Just watched this. It was dumb, but the crowd seemed to enjoy it. Nothing to get worked up over, really.

This won't ruin my enjoyment of other wrestling. This also won't ruin my enjoyment of Foley. I can watch an old match of his and still be into it. He could also show up on RAW or SD this week and I'd be happy to see him.

You either enjoy this kind of stuff or you don't. Like Vito said, there's plenty of other rasslin out there to watch instead.

Yeah and honestly, I dug it the first time Joey Ryan did it. It's just a bit too long to be a signature move. Like Lio Rush being a zombie and then noselling a package piledriver through a table isn't entertaining to me, but it doesn't offend me.

[Lock Jaw]

Wow, like chill out everybody. I can't believe something as innocuous as a penis driven hip toss has caused such an uproar.

Like, its not such a big deal, guys.

[Destor]

Like, its not such a big deal, guys.
thats what she said

[Destor]

AMIRITE

[Evil Vito]

Gonna ramble a lot here.....but I think one stumbling blocks of wrestling winning over new fans is because of the misconception that people watch wrestling because they believe it's real, and people are far more likely to embrace it the moment they get over that hurdle.

I think a TV show like GLOW will win over far more fans to wrestling who never would have considered it before than any number of neckbeards with a pre-planned "BUT THE HAZARDS ARE REAL" diatribe to unleash any time someone tells them it's fake. Because wrestling fans shouldn't be defensive of wrestling's "reality, we should embrace everything that makes it silly and ridiculous, and celebrate that.

Again, it's about creating an emotional investment - even if that initial emotion is nothing more than curiosity, that's a foot in the door that you're far less likely to get if you cling to the notion of wrestling as a legitimate sport.

I think it's great early on to let new fans know what your company is about. A casual audience are going to come in with some variation of the "it's fake and gay" preconception, so you have to hook them right off the bat. A comedy match is great for this. Not full-blown shenanigans, but something that's got a decent amount of "real" wrestling in there so people know that you're capable, but enough comedy that people in the crowd realise that the company is in on the joke.

Then they're not snickering behind their hands at the inherent silliness of wrestling, they're invited to join in, and the performers are telling them, "it's okay to laugh at this bit". Then they open up, they'll laugh out loud, and then they're invested, and suddenly they're part of the show. Once you've broken that barrier, and got them laughing, they're ten times more likely to start cheering, booing, chanting, and participating.

The other way to try and dispel that "it's fake and gay" criticism is to go the entire opposite direction - give the crowd an "Oh shit!" moment right off the bat. Throw out something that impresses even the most jaded person in the audience enough that it'll break through that barrier and just get to an instinctive reaction.

Depending on your company - this can be where you throw in some "spot monkeys" and flip-de-doos that nobody in the crowd can do. Or if you're a more hardcore-focused promotion, maybe you start off with a clusterfuck brawl that spills to the outside and you let the fans really hear the chops and forearms right in front of them. So even the jaded fans think "well, that had to hurt".

Basically I think you win over fans by giving them an "in" to your world, to effectively say, "it isn't a real sport but, look, that doesn't really matter".

That can be comedy - and I do think that's the best way - it can be a big move, it can be a compelling personality or story. But what I don't think can ever manage to win over a new fan, certainly not an adult fan, in this day and age is sticking stubbornly to an insistence that pro-wrestling should be treated as a legitimate sport.

If somebody isn't already a fan, they're already going to have a world of preconceptions as to how wrestling absolutely isn't that, and a reasoned argument with the best of intentions will never be enough to change their mind.

[Shisen Kopf]

You know what I hated and was dumb AF? The worm. So stupid and STUPID FUCKING IDIOTS CHEERED FOR THAT SHIT. FUCK YOU! AAAAAAHHHHH SO FUCKING ANGRY NOW!

[Shisen Kopf]

RASSLE ANGER

[Shisen Kopf]

Hey STD, what would your Irish Ancestors think of this Joey Ryan shirt?

https://image.spreadshirtmedia.com/image-server/v1/mp/products/P1009077102T210A95MPC1015258364PA330PT17/views/1,width=800,height=800,appearanceId=95,backgroundColor=E8E8E8,version=1485256808/joey-ryan-penis-power-men-s-t-shirt.jpg

[Fignuts]

Crowd was into it and that's probably all that matters to foley. Doubt he's going to lose any sleep over a bunch of wrestling fans on the internet being disappointed in him.

[KIRA]

My response to this anger is that
Santino was a wrestler who put a snake puppet on his arm as a finisher

and Then theres the peoples Elbow

I could do this forever.

[Bad News Gertner]

Crowd was into it and that's probably all that matters to foley. Doubt he's going to lose any sleep over a bunch of wrestling fans on the internet being disappointed in him.

Lol oh yes he will

[Bad News Gertner]

My response to this anger is that
Santino was a wrestler who put a snake puppet on his arm as a finisher

and Then theres the peoples Elbow

I could do this forever.

I hated the Cobra as well. Loved the People's Elbow, just not as a finisher

At least the Cobra was a strike to the throat and the People's Elbow was a running elbow drop. Not comparable to a Dick Flip.

[Lock Jaw]

Honestly all the video did was make me feel good for Mick Foley.

[DaveWadding]

On the topic of Cornette/Foley, I was just thinking about this on my drive back from work:

I'm not sure if Corny will take it this way, but I think there's a case to make for this being a bit of a personal slight. Maybe that's a bit extreme, but think about it. Let's say I was in the music industry once upon a time, and there was a new producer that was releasing stuff and it was overly simplistic, effortless, and the dude was blocking off real artists from getting gigs. Let's say it's because he uses real simple lyrics and shitty autotune. And whether or not you agree with my assessment of it being tasteless and having a bad effect on live music or not, but that dude then releases a song with a good friend of mine in that exact same vein -- it makes me look like a bit of an asshole, haha.

I mean, I doubt Mick was thinking about Cornette. Maybe Ryan wasn't either. But regardless, it's just a bit...man, it's just a bit disappointing. I would consider whether or not I should feel betrayed by that. I mean, even if my friend didn't feel the same way about the music industry, and felt that autotuned repetitive bullshit wasn't polluting the scene and wasn't hurting more serious artists and making their music harder to find, I would probably not do it on principle. Because it's not like I don't have a back catalogue of stuff, and it's not like I'm not basically retired from the music industry. I'd probably just nix the idea and say "I actually get what you are trying to do, man, but it's just something I can't bring myself to do. But if you've got some young up-and-comer on your album, I'll record proper vocals with them, or something."

I dunno, maybe I'm not thinking realistically. But I actually think Cornette has good cause to feel personally insulted that Foley would work with Ryan. I wouldn't feel the same about Foley doing something with Omega though. I think it's because Omega actually tries now.

This is the worst post you've ever written. BY FAR.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Noid's forty years in the business GIVE HIM THE RIGHT DAVEWADDING

[Shisen Kopf]

Could Noid please have his own podcast called "Noid Rants on Rasslin" I would listen for 5 minutes

[#1-norm-fan]

I don't understand the issue here. An evil foreigner is WWE champion. In 2017.

Wrestling rarely evolves with the times.

There's a difference between a generic evil foreigner gimmick and literally just doing the exact same thing that someone else did 20 years before to a T.

The comparison would make sense if Jinder Mahal started cutting promos that word for word copied The Iron Sheik or something.

[Emperor Smeat]

Just another case of Cornette making a simple non-issue into a bigger deal than it should be.

Don't have a problem with comedy matches or comedy style wrestlers as long as its either funny or at least works in the end. Both Foley and the crowd loved the wiener spot so personally don't see any issue with it.

More happy Foley seems to be in a lot better shape than he was earlier in the year which is great for him.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

they aren't doing the exact same thing lol they just do the suck it and too sweet. Kenny Omega also does the suck it but he's not exactly ripping off anyone with his act as a whole.

[Shisen Kopf]

Tiger Ali Singh should return too. All Indians are friends.

[DaveWadding]

There's a difference between a generic evil foreigner gimmick and literally just doing the exact same thing that someone else did 20 years before to a T.

The comparison would make sense if Jinder Mahal started cutting promos that word for word copied The Iron Sheik or something.



dhshsfhgshshsg...IRAN

dfgdfsdfgsdfgsfgs...HOAK HOGAN

fgbfhjdfgjghkfghxfgh...FUCK YOUR ASS, MAKE YOU HUMBEL

dfhsgfhsfghgfhsgfhuik....FACK U, B. BRiEN BLAIR

[#1-norm-fan]

Because wrestling fans shouldn't be defensive of wrestling's "reality, we should embrace everything that makes it silly and ridiculous, and celebrate that.

I celebrate the Broken Hardy shit. It was creative and fun. I could see how a non-wrestling fan would appreciate what they were doing with that. This stuff is just bad. I don't mind comedy wrestling. I mind embarrassingly lame and shitty wrestling. Comedy or otherwise.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I honestly think the argument is, it's cool not to like it, but to act like it's killing wrestling anymore than Vince's lame shit that he's done to "kill the business".

[#1-norm-fan]

they aren't doing the exact same thing lol they just do the suck it and too sweet. Kenny Omega also does the suck it but he's not exactly ripping off anyone with his act as a whole.

I never said they were ripping of an entire act...

It's just those two things that they happen to make a big part of their act.

The rest of their act is "We're shitty backyard wrestlers who never learned to sell and look like our balls haven't dropped yet." Which I GUESS is original.

[Shisen Kopf]

It's all terrible. Shut it down. Shut it all down. No more rasslin. Done.

[#1-norm-fan]

Both Foley and the crowd loved the wiener spot so personally don't see any issue with it.

Welp! If Mick giving handjobs puts smiles on the fans faces, you gotta do it i guess.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

It eeeeeis what it eeeeeeis.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

It's about as credible as the gimmick battle royal from x7 that iron sheik won because he clearly couldn't take an over-the-top-rope bump.

[Lock Jaw]

It's all terrible. Shut it down. Shut it all down. No more rasslin. Done.

I can get behind this movement.

#ShutItDown

Unless everybody agrees that this is SERIOUS BUSINESS and should be treated as such.

[#1-norm-fan]

Sheik could probably beat all those other old fucks' asses in real life.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Sheik could probably beat all those other old fucks' asses in real life.

One could surmise they'd be made humble.

[DaveWadding]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">How long do I need to kill the business for before it dies? Or even shows any damage? Because wrestling is in a fantastic upswing right now.</p>&mdash; Joey Ryan (@JoeyRyanOnline) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline/status/894371568423448576">August 7, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Destor]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">How long do I need to kill the business for before it dies? Or even shows any damage? Because wrestling is in a fantastic upswing right now.</p>&mdash; Joey Ryan (@JoeyRyanOnline) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline/status/894371568423448576">August 7, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

No it isnt. Its not doing well at all. On any continent.

[#1-norm-fan]

Too much blood rushing to his dick to think straight.

[Fignuts]

And it's all because of comedy wrestling. Something the average person doesn't even know exists.

[Destor]

And it's all because of comedy wrestling. Something the average person doesn't even know exists.

I never said that at any juncture...his brand of comedy is systemic of the issue but in no way the cause. Hes small time.

[Fignuts]

Hope the next wrestlemania main event is joey ryan wrestling a toaster, just so I can watch cornette and the iwc explode like a fist of the northstar villain.

[mike adamle]

On the topic of Cornette/Foley, I was just thinking about this on my drive back from work:

I'm not sure if Corny will take it this way, but I think there's a case to make for this being a bit of a personal slight. Maybe that's a bit extreme, but think about it. Let's say I was in the music industry once upon a time, and there was a new producer that was releasing stuff and it was overly simplistic, effortless, and the dude was blocking off real artists from getting gigs. Let's say it's because he uses real simple lyrics and shitty autotune. And whether or not you agree with my assessment of it being tasteless and having a bad effect on live music or not, but that dude then releases a song with a good friend of mine in that exact same vein -- it makes me look like a bit of an asshole, haha.

I mean, I doubt Mick was thinking about Cornette. Maybe Ryan wasn't either. But regardless, it's just a bit...man, it's just a bit disappointing. I would consider whether or not I should feel betrayed by that. I mean, even if my friend didn't feel the same way about the music industry, and felt that autotuned repetitive bullshit wasn't polluting the scene and wasn't hurting more serious artists and making their music harder to find, I would probably not do it on principle. Because it's not like I don't have a back catalogue of stuff, and it's not like I'm not basically retired from the music industry. I'd probably just nix the idea and say "I actually get what you are trying to do, man, but it's just something I can't bring myself to do. But if you've got some young up-and-comer on your album, I'll record proper vocals with them, or something."

I dunno, maybe I'm not thinking realistically. But I actually think Cornette has good cause to feel personally insulted that Foley would work with Ryan. I wouldn't feel the same about Foley doing something with Omega though. I think it's because Omega actually tries now.

I don't know what's more embarrassing; this post or the fact that this is what you think about on your ride home from work. Pathetic.

[Lock Jaw]

Back in my e-fed days there was one rassler who was legit just a toaster.

[#1-norm-fan]

Hope the next wrestlemania main event is joey ryan wrestling a toaster, just so I can watch cornette and the iwc explode like a fist of the northstar villain.

The toaster would be more valuable to the company.

[thecc]

No it isnt. Its not doing well at all. On any continent.Isnt progress selling out at the Alexandra palace. I'd consider that doing really well.

[Destor]

Isnt progress selling out at the Alexandra palace. I'd consider that doing really well.

Max capacity is 10,400. Also one night draw isnt a sustainable business model at all even if 10k gets your dick hard

[Destor]

Need a circuit of that really

[#BROKEN Hasney]

No it isnt. Its not doing well at all. On any continent.

In the UK it's probably the biggest it's ever been.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Max capacity is 10,400. Also one night draw isnt a sustainable business model at all even if 10k gets your dick hard

For a UK promotion to go over there and draw that crowd is pretty good going as a one off. It's a shame the UK doesn't have many of the mid-sized venues. They're stuck with a 2,700 for a place in London before having to do 15-20k seaters on the next tier up.

Would be interesting to know their subscriber numbers tbh. I started watching from Chapter 1 and it's surprisingly fucking good from both a talent and story point of view. It almost feels like it's booked with a long term vision, which is just crazy talk.

[KIRA]

No it isnt. Its not doing well at all. On any continent.

I was agreeing with him right up till that last comment.

[KIRA]

I hated the Cobra as well. Loved the People's Elbow, just not as a finisher

At least the Cobra was a strike to the throat and the People's Elbow was a running elbow drop. Not comparable to a Dick Flip.

Pretty much the same The People's elbow was great as the singnature move of a cocky dick who honestly thought he could pin someone after using it

I had to be put on life support when he started winning matches with it though.

[Destor]

I wouldnt call the UK a continent

[Evil Vito]

The end goal is to get the audience emotionally invested and, ultimately, get them to spend money on your product. Whatever means you get there are irrelevant. The old-fashioned approach is that you do so by convincing them of the reality of some aspect of the product (which, as I've said, is a hard sell for new fans who go into it knowing it's fake). But if you get them invested through CHIKARA or Lucha Underground-style fantastical storytelling, or through Ospreay/Ricochet-style feats of athleticism, or through hard-hitting bloody brawls or through Joey Ryan-style comedy routines, or OTT's approach (from whence the Foley/Joey Ryan spot came) of overdoing it to the point that the audience are on the edge of their seat just wanting to know what the fuck could possibly happen next...it doesn't matter, so long as the end goal remains the same.

What hurts the Jim Cornettes of the world is the insistence on that old phrase "killing the business". Kenny Omega is playing a substantial role in driving NJPW ticket sales to a level they haven't been at in years. Omega and the Young Bucks are spearheading a movement that's allowing more independent wrestlers to earn a living outside the WWE than have been able to do so since the collapse of WCW (something Cornette has long complained wasn't possible any more). Joey Ryan is raking in a fair chunk of change from Lucha Underground, indie appearances, sponsorship, and making a small fortune on merch sales.

There probably is a decent argument against over-reliance on comedy spots. But for some workers, that's why they're brought in. And for some companies, being comedy-centric is how they stay in business.

We all have different tastes and I can understand people "drawing their line" for what is too much for their personal tastes, as seems to be the general opinion for Joey Ryan's dick schtick. But if you stick to the argument that it's "killing the business", and the merch sales and gate receipts are telling a different story, you don't really have a leg to stand on.

Once again I just say, watch what entertains you instead of railing on about how one promotion, wrestler, or style sucks.

[Emperor Smeat]

No it isnt. Its not doing well at all. On any continent.
Australia supposedly is in the early process of a possible UK-like revival occurring there which is why NJPW started investing there.

Asia is a bit weird since India and China are big emerging markets for wrestling but don't think they have any local promotions that are big. Japan is mixed but NJPW themselves are doing better overall than last year.

Could make the case for North America if you only look at the major promotions (AAA, CMLL, GFW/Impact, WWE) but then again a lot of those problems are directly related to management issues than actual interest in wrestling waning away.

UK itself is doing a lot better than like 5 years ago even with ITV's struggles trying to get a major wrestling show made.

[Destor]

Australia supposedly is in the early process of a possible UK-like revival occurring there which is why NJPW started investing there.

Asia is a bit weird since India and China are big emerging markets for wrestling but don't think they have any local promotions that are big. Japan is mixed but NJPW themselves are doing better overall than last year.

Could make the case for North America if you only look at the major promotions (AAA, CMLL, GFW/Impact, WWE) but then again a lot of those problems are directly related to management issues than actual interest in wrestling waning away.

UK itself is doing a lot better than like 5 years ago even with ITV's struggles trying to get a major wrestling show made.

NJPW is doing...fine. but the country is not. The only promotion with solid footing is njpw everything else has gone under or is barelty afloat.

The only company stateside...or reallyt north america is WWE. no one else is doing big business. Theres some money south of the boarder and because of that id say NA is better off than the rest of the globe.

EU is dead. Yeah the UK is hot but thats absolutely it. Which is a first. Historically Germany has had money.

AU ive had some friends down that way in the past 2 years and all speak highly of it but its all indy level pay days.

[Vastardikai]

Hope the next wrestlemania main event is joey ryan wrestling a toaster, just so I can watch cornette and the iwc explode like a fist of the northstar villain.

I'm in favor of this on three conditions:

1. The toaster is plugged in.
2. The match takes place in a bathtub.
3. Said bathtub is full of water.

[thecc]

For a UK promotion to go over there and draw that crowd is pretty good going as a one off. It's a shame the UK doesn't have many of the mid-sized venues. They're stuck with a 2,700 for a place in London before having to do 15-20k seaters on the next tier up.

Would be interesting to know their subscriber numbers tbh. I started watching from Chapter 1 and it's surprisingly fucking good from both a talent and story point of view. It almost feels like it's booked with a long term vision, which is just crazy talk.Not to go off topic too much but so much this. It makes me incredibly happy to see how much talent has developed and grown in Progress. A big issue with indies in the us is most of them ripping off PWG instead of having guys grow in these promotions. Half of the indies right now are just Sami Callahan and friends.

It's the reason I support companies like Progress and AIW. If you look at how many guys have come through and grown in those companies, it's crazy. Why bring in 2 huge names to wrestle on your show, when you can use them to help improve younger talent.

[Mr. Nerfect]

What the hell is this post. How are we not supposed to consider you anything more than a Cornette regurgitator/felatiator after this ridiculous post?

I legitimately don't understand your point.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Gonna ramble a lot here.....but I think one stumbling blocks of wrestling winning over new fans is because of the misconception that people watch wrestling because they believe it's real, and people are far more likely to embrace it the moment they get over that hurdle.

I think a TV show like GLOW will win over far more fans to wrestling who never would have considered it before than any number of neckbeards with a pre-planned "BUT THE HAZARDS ARE REAL" diatribe to unleash any time someone tells them it's fake. Because wrestling fans shouldn't be defensive of wrestling's "reality, we should embrace everything that makes it silly and ridiculous, and celebrate that.

Again, it's about creating an emotional investment - even if that initial emotion is nothing more than curiosity, that's a foot in the door that you're far less likely to get if you cling to the notion of wrestling as a legitimate sport.

I think it's great early on to let new fans know what your company is about. A casual audience are going to come in with some variation of the "it's fake and gay" preconception, so you have to hook them right off the bat. A comedy match is great for this. Not full-blown shenanigans, but something that's got a decent amount of "real" wrestling in there so people know that you're capable, but enough comedy that people in the crowd realise that the company is in on the joke.

Then they're not snickering behind their hands at the inherent silliness of wrestling, they're invited to join in, and the performers are telling them, "it's okay to laugh at this bit". Then they open up, they'll laugh out loud, and then they're invested, and suddenly they're part of the show. Once you've broken that barrier, and got them laughing, they're ten times more likely to start cheering, booing, chanting, and participating.

The other way to try and dispel that "it's fake and gay" criticism is to go the entire opposite direction - give the crowd an "Oh shit!" moment right off the bat. Throw out something that impresses even the most jaded person in the audience enough that it'll break through that barrier and just get to an instinctive reaction.

Depending on your company - this can be where you throw in some "spot monkeys" and flip-de-doos that nobody in the crowd can do. Or if you're a more hardcore-focused promotion, maybe you start off with a clusterfuck brawl that spills to the outside and you let the fans really hear the chops and forearms right in front of them. So even the jaded fans think "well, that had to hurt".

Basically I think you win over fans by giving them an "in" to your world, to effectively say, "it isn't a real sport but, look, that doesn't really matter".

That can be comedy - and I do think that's the best way - it can be a big move, it can be a compelling personality or story. But what I don't think can ever manage to win over a new fan, certainly not an adult fan, in this day and age is sticking stubbornly to an insistence that pro-wrestling should be treated as a legitimate sport.

If somebody isn't already a fan, they're already going to have a world of preconceptions as to how wrestling absolutely isn't that, and a reasoned argument with the best of intentions will never be enough to change their mind.

I remember when I used to think like this. I used to think that a general person would "get it" if it was obvious that it wasn't supposed to deceive them, because people are very bitter about wrestling being fake. Then I did a bit more growing and research, and I've completely disowned this point of view.

Part of that was looking at how the people buy into the personas of fighters in the UFC and boxing. I heard a person I generally consider to be intelligent talk about a fighter they legitimately wanted to see get his ass kicked. I pointed out that he's probably stirring up those emotions so you pay to see that happen, and he was completely baffled by the idea.

People don't understand how wrestling works. So many people say it's got fake blood, for example. Until recently, they were just wrong. People get so bent up out of shape about it, but generally speaking, I've noticed more and more people with fond memories of when wrestling was "cool." It's not so much that wrestling itself turns people off, I do think it is how it is presented.

I used to think that if wrestling presented itself as being too serious, that people would piss all over it as ridiculous. But almost everything proves contrary to that point. One of the "hotter" moments the WWE has had in recent years was CM Punk's pipe-bomb. There were people I came into contact with on the internet who were generally somewhat worked by that, and wondered if CM Punk was going anywhere, and whether or not his contract was up. Look at the recent success of Goldberg, or how Brock Lesnar feels so much better than basically any other guy there.

The comedy stuff sucks because there is no hook. It's basically performers winking at the camera and saying "You don't need to feel bad for watching this, because we all know it's fake." But that reeks of self-conscious performing. It's an actor breaking the fourth wall in a script that doesn't require it. There's nothing clever about it in the slightest, and generally speaking, although I used to understand where you are coming from, I don't think people like that sort of shit, because it's extra-geeky. It's like a room full of D&D nerds talking shit about D&D as they pretend to play it. What does it actually achieve?

People are generally pretty dumb. That might sound condescending, and it is. I put myself in that category too. Trump is President. People thought the Punk stuff was legit. People don't think professional fighters work them. People think that reality television isn't scripted. There were also people who believed the WWE was building to Bryan vs. The Miz, or that The Miz somehow cut a "shoot" promo in that Talking Smack segment.

I think a few people inside the bubble, who have become disenfranchised with sports entertainment for so long think that the game is up, so they don't bother trying. They push even further into ridiculousness as if that will provide some sort of meta key into winning over hearts and minds. But agin, what really is the point of seeing a couple of people flop around like fish? At least the douches in Jackass had a plan behind pushing the shopping trolley down the hill. It lowers the art form; not raise it. A true meta approach would be to take it seriously, because no one thinks that it is legit, so treating it as legit and trying to pull that wool over people's eyes in 2017 would require some skill, charm, charisma, hard work and an honest-to-god artistic mind. Fake wrestlers jumping around in a fake sport is stating the obvious. It's going low-ball and ground zero with your thinking. Being a real wrestler in a fake sport? That's a bit more advanced. When you can convince people that shit really matters? That is when you can start getting people talking, and if wrestling is ever going to be "cool" again, you are going to notice people talking about things you see through, as a smarter fan, but that they think might just be legit. Or you'll hear that weird general fan bullshit. They work themselves half the time.

I appreciate the point. I used to subscribe to it. But there is no evidence that this works, and people are too smart to be that dumb and too dumb to be that smart, all at the same time. People actually like structure, and they like to be deceived by certain things. You've just got to work out how to present it in a way that is palatable and doesn't insult their intelligence. There's nothing about this sort of comedy wrestling that doesn't insult intelligence. It's literally dick-waving and people lowering themselves for a laugh. It's borderline clowning, and no one truly respects clowns for more than a minute.

I never said that at any juncture...his brand of comedy is systemic of the issue but in no way the cause. Hes small time.

This basically summarizes it all pretty neatly. This sort of stuff is a response to a profession that has disengaged so many of its viewers, to the point where they actually find this a release to some degree. I can understand why people find it cute -- I'm just not impressed by them. It's by no means the root cause of the problem, but it's in no way the solution, and it in no way helps wrestling look any better. It's actually more embarrassing than actual wrestling, to be honest.

It reminds me of a Doug Stanhope joke. He's talking about Norway having a monarchy or something. He basically mocks them for being boot-licking supplicants who have these people in an exalted position. He then says the common retort is "But they don't really do anything." He points out how this is worse. If someone walked in on you watching wrestling in 2017, given how shit it is, you might be fairly embarrassed. But if someone walked in on your watching some of that invisible grenade bullshit, you could at least say "But they're obviously not really fighting." To which an appropriate response is "...Then why are you fucking watching it?!?"

[Mr. Nerfect]

NJPW is doing...fine. but the country is not. The only promotion with solid footing is njpw everything else has gone under or is barelty afloat.

The only company stateside...or reallyt north america is WWE. no one else is doing big business. Theres some money south of the boarder and because of that id say NA is better off than the rest of the globe.

EU is dead. Yeah the UK is hot but thats absolutely it. Which is a first. Historically Germany has had money.

AU ive had some friends down that way in the past 2 years and all speak highly of it but its all indy level pay days.

I've not heard any mumbling about anything hot in AU. Maybe it is just something I don't have my ears onto, but I certainly haven't felt any buzz. Good for your friends though, I hope I hear about them soon.

Onto the other places -- hasn't this all been dispelled as myth? I mean, you pretty much covered it, Desty, but isn't the idea that New Japan is in the best position it has been in for years only really congruent when you are comparing it to years it was basically in the toilet? And everything in Japan is pretty much dead, as you said. It's not like you've got New Japan, All Japan and NOAH all striving for dominance. It's New Japan and then DDT doing crazy shit as a goof as "anti-wrestling," but I'm sure that's not exactly like All Japan '95.

This UK being hot thing though. Like, it's getting a lot of internet buzz, but is it getting any legitimate cultural buzz? Or is it just the hardcore fan leftover from the hangover of the Attitude era? I just ask because people make it sound like it's some sort of renaissance, but I just don't see the Queen attending a Progress show anytime soon. I mean, didn't World of Sport fall through because there wasn't enough interest?

Not trying to be cynical, but a legitimate question: How hot is the UK really? Or is it just fans' perspectives that it is hotter than, say, the crippled scene in Iowa by comparison?

[Destor]

Hard for me to answer that as the UK product is primarily UK guys so i dont know what the money is like. Lot of the TNA/GFW guys say it a good market but i dont really know. I think they are more "primed to blow up" than "doing big business" but if they can keep people out of signing big contracts maybe itll happen.

[Destor]

Its Q rating internationally is something maybe some of the locals can speak to. I.E. do non fans even know that these shows exist?

[#BROKEN Hasney]

UK wrestling is big, but there's no one company that's massive and a lot of that is to do with the aforementioned lack of the mid-tier arenas. That 5* Wrestling that was going to do the 128 man tournament across the UK was booking out 15,000-20,000 arenas for it hoping the TV exposure would be enough, but they're a promotion created to promote a video game and expected to do that after their second show, so they're small time.

There's a few promotions that are based in various cities but tour a couple of times a year and are big enough that they sell out the 2-4,000 seaters when they tour. They are

PROGRESS
ICW
RevPro
IPW

Then the newer promotions that haven't tried leaving their city yet

PCW
TIDAL
ATTACK! (Which is a comedy federation run by Pete Dunne and Mark Andrews where their most recent show had a NES explode and had weird things happen like Tyler Bate and Pete Dunne Freaky Friday with each other)
Kamikaze Pro

Then you have WCPW, which is weird since the crowd that goes to them apparently doesn't watch any other wrestling. They're a strange company, run by people who made videos about wrestling for WhatCulture, shows uploaded to YouTube and their match with El Patron V Rey Mysterio pulled in over 11million views. It's only been going a year and the quality is OK, so I'm interested to see what happens with them.

There are some legitimate draws out there. Cool King backed me up that Grado kind of became a big enough name out of wrestling that you'll occasionally hear from random people "Hey, you like wrestling, right? That Grado is coming down if you want to go" which is bizarre to me since he did it off a BBC documentary about wrestling and just joking on Twitter.

World of Sport didn't fall through because of lack of interest. 1.25 million viewers on New Years Eve when people are out is nothing to sniff at... But Jeff Jarrett got involved and it went tits up.

The big cities that have these promotions are certainly gaining traction, but without the mid-tier arenas, there's not much room for growth. I think PROGRESS should look at going to the US more often and maybe opening a division there and see how it goes. I think they've got the most potential to break out.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I legitimately don't understand your point.

and this is your problem

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I dunno, I just don't think you're thinking for yourself. You like Jim Cornette and are getting sucked into his never ending sea of nonsense. The fact that your'e projecting it as a personal slight against Cornette I think makes it pretty clear.

In short, stop being such a mark for Cornette, and for yourself.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

#BOOMSHAKALAKA

[DaveWadding]

I dunno, I just don't think you're thinking for yourself. You like Jim Cornette and are getting sucked into his never ending sea of nonsense. The fact that your'e projecting it as a personal slight against Cornette I think makes it pretty clear.

In short, stop being such a mark for Cornette, and for yourself.

Jim Cornette is working you into a shoot, brother. Much love. -HH

[mike adamle]

I dunno, I just don't think you're thinking for yourself. You like Jim Cornette and are getting sucked into his never ending sea of nonsense. The fact that your'e projecting it as a personal slight against Cornette I think makes it pretty clear.

In short, stop being such a mark for Cornette, and for yourself.

Still can't imagine someone thinking about Jim Cornette so much on their ride home from work.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

lol adamle me arguing with Noid doesn't always mean you have to come in and pile on. Noid is my homeboy I am just CALLING HIS ASS OUT. Wadding piling on is welcome though.

[#1-norm-fan]

I bet Adamle thinks about Noid posts on his way home from work.

[Fignuts]

No, he probably thinks about his next "std is a drunk" post and how much everyone will like it.

[mike adamle]

I bet Noid has a pic of Jim Cornette in his wallet.

[mike adamle]

Noid probably has a pic of Jim Cornette's wedding (if he was ever married which sounds very unlikely) with his face over Cornette's wife's face. Freak.

[mike adamle]

No, he probably thinks about his next "std is a drunk" post and how much everyone will like it.

I heard STD has been sober now for over a month, sadly no one has noticed since he is still very unintelligent and socially awkward.

[Evil Vito]

But if someone walked in on your watching some of that invisible grenade bullshit, you could at least say "But they're obviously not really fighting." To which an appropriate response is "...Then why are you fucking watching it?!?"

I don't see why that would be an appropriate response. There have been about 50,000 different movies and TV shows that have depicted fighting that wasn't really fighting. Wrestling is fake and scripted just like 95% of things you can watch on TV.

I remember people getting all butthurt a decade or so ago when the sports-entertainment branding got stronger and WWE self-described itself as an action soap opera. But it's the fucking truth and it is for all of wrestling. There are characters, storylines, and staged conflict. Whether it's presented as serious or funny - these elements are still there. It just so happens that the people involved are way, way more athletically gifted than the average actor.

Just about everybody I know watched wrestling in the late 90s/early 00s. Many lapsed away because they felt they "outgrew" it and they were a part of the "it's fake and gay" crowd. Trying to present the product as legitimate will never bring those people back because they've already figured out that Santa is not real.

But presenting wrestling in a more open way actually gives them and new fans the message that - hey guys - it's just like any other fucking TV show. Except in this TV show you're encouraged to participate, and that makes it unlike anything else you can watch.

[Evil Vito]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Maybe Dick Guy can explain why I make more money than he does not being employed. It's called talent--ya oughtta try some <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline">@JoeyRyanOnline</a> <a href="https://t.co/ekfAjBnSAl">https://t.co/ekfAjBnSAl</a></p>&mdash; Jim Cornette (@TheJimCornette) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheJimCornette/status/894586706258743297">August 7, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I would be willing to compare tax returns on that. <a href="https://t.co/CCq2VLW64A">https://t.co/CCq2VLW64A</a></p>&mdash; Joey Ryan (@JoeyRyanOnline) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline/status/894588253063524352">August 7, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cornette working like a motherfucker, Joey Ryan biting.

[Fignuts]

If someone walked in on you watching wrestling in 2017, given how shit it is, you might be fairly embarrassed. But if someone walked in on your watching some of that invisible grenade bullshit, you could at least say "But they're obviously not really fighting." To which an appropriate response is "...Then why are you fucking watching it?!?"

Then I give them the same response I give everyone who asks that. I explain to them it's not about replicating a real fight. It's about two or more people telling a story without saying a word.

Also, why do you give a fuck what people see you watching? Anyone who judges you based on what television you watch is a faggot and not worth worrying about anyway. Check your insecurities bruh

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Boom goes the dynamite

[Mr. Nerfect]

I dunno, I just don't think you're thinking for yourself. You like Jim Cornette and are getting sucked into his never ending sea of nonsense. The fact that your'e projecting it as a personal slight against Cornette I think makes it pretty clear.

In short, stop being such a mark for Cornette, and for yourself.

Yeah, but the same scenario could be applied to other people, lol. It's not Cornette-specific. The argument is as old as art, frankly. Writers of fiction criticizing those who went too exploitative, filmmakers who show too much and don't play the rules, etc.

Another example: Say Quentin Tarantino had a problem with Harmony Korine (and I'm not saying he does). He thinks his style is too raw and discredits cinema, or whatever. Then Robert Rodriguez, in the middle of this public disagreement, goes and co-directs a Dogme style film with Harmony Korine. Would Tarantino, in that predicament, have a case to say not only "That movie sucks," but also "I feel betrayed by a friend." That's all I'm asking, you cock-munch. When does taking certain bookings become "sleeping with the enemy?"

I'm not saying Cornette should feel that. I don't think he will, honestly. He seems like more the sort to focus on why it sucked, and why Mick should probably make his bumps matter at this stage. But I know I am a passive person outside my "gimmick" here, so I was wondering if people thought that was a bit of a shitty thing for Mick to do and if Cornette's personal issues with Ryan enter the equation at all. You obviously think they don't. Cool, I actually agree, but I don't know if I trust my opinion on that.

As for not thinking for myself. That's your opinion. It's more of that projecting stuff again, but you're entitled to it. I deplore the things Cornette said recently about mental illness. I wouldn't blindly defend the man of any crime. I like him on wrestling and politics though. I'm still yet to hear reasonable criticism of his actual points when refuting him, lol. It's always the straw-man ad hominem excuse to avoid addressing his very real points. But the guy can say some trashy things, no doubt. So whatever, think what you want, I suppose.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I bet Adamle thinks about Noid posts on his way home from work.

Lol, I don't even interact with the tosser anymore. I don't like making those projections that bother me so much, but I'm fairly certain he's a very miserable person. The bitterness just legitimately seeps through his posts. Honestly hope the dude is okay.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Then I give them the same response I give everyone who asks that. I explain to them it's not about replicating a real fight. It's about two or more people telling a story without saying a word.

Also, why do you give a fuck what people see you watching? Anyone who judges you based on what television you watch is a faggot and not worth worrying about anyway. Check your insecurities bruh

It was a hypothetical situation to demonstrate taste. I don't give a fuck, but I have higher standards than that self-conscious shit, which is kind of exactly my point.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I don't see why that would be an appropriate response. There have been about 50,000 different movies and TV shows that have depicted fighting that wasn't really fighting. Wrestling is fake and scripted just like 95% of things you can watch on TV.

I remember people getting all butthurt a decade or so ago when the sports-entertainment branding got stronger and WWE self-described itself as an action soap opera. But it's the fucking truth and it is for all of wrestling. There are characters, storylines, and staged conflict. Whether it's presented as serious or funny - these elements are still there. It just so happens that the people involved are way, way more athletically gifted than the average actor.

Just about everybody I know watched wrestling in the late 90s/early 00s. Many lapsed away because they felt they "outgrew" it and they were a part of the "it's fake and gay" crowd. Trying to present the product as legitimate will never bring those people back because they've already figured out that Santa is not real.

But presenting wrestling in a more open way actually gives them and new fans the message that - hey guys - it's just like any other fucking TV show. Except in this TV show you're encouraged to participate, and that makes it unlike anything else you can watch.

People don't think of wrestling as a television show like any other. They just don't. That's why they are so butt-hurt about it being fake. I get your mentality and where you are coming from, but it's never worked before, and I'm pretty sure it won't ever work.

There is an ironic relationship people have with television, and many papers have been written about it. Reality television is usually the focus, but I'm sure you can do it about wrestling too. It doesn't work the way you are describing. When it comes to reality television, people generally cover their shame-watching with the label of "ironic." You've probably heard people say this about The Bachelor, Big Brother, or whatever the fuck. Shows that don't bother to try and honor this desire for there to be some sort of ironic/genuine relationship are fucked. If it's too fake, people see through it and don't feel they can have the genuine investment worth using the ironic cover for.

This is a thing. It's called "The Irony Bribe" or something like that. I get you might not be making an argument for comedy wrestling, and might be instead arguing just against the super-serial stuff, but that irony is already there in that the business is exposed. And this is where I'd begin to repeat myself -- that would be truly going meta, etc.

Something that aims to be bad is quite a juvenile, immature, unpolished and uncreative approach to challenging any sort of established trope anyway. The "so bad it's good" argument really only works for guilty pleasures and things that were sincerely trying to be good. Trying to write something bad artistically is 15 year old boy syndrome. You're much better off trying to make something good about something bad. You don't want your message itself to be bad. That's just bad.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

There is in no way, shape, or for a way you can say what Mick did was "shitty" to anyone. There are definitive arguments that it was most certainly lame, because of the nature of the spot. But at this stage of his life Mick Foley can do what he wants. In fact, Mick Foley has given his body to the business enough that the likes of Cornette and yourself should probably just shut the fuck up and let him do wtf he wants.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Either way it's no worse than his recent half hearted run as RAW GM.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Either way it's no worse than his recent half hearted run as RAW GM.

I'd be quarter hearted with those shitty scripts and angles.

[Mr. Nerfect]

There is in no way, shape, or for a way you can say what Mick did was "shitty" to anyone. There are definitive arguments that it was most certainly lame, because of the nature of the spot. But at this stage of his life Mick Foley can do what he wants. In fact, Mick Foley has given his body to the business enough that the likes of Cornette and yourself should probably just shut the fuck up and let him do wtf he wants.

That's actually a fair point, and I actually think Cornette will take the same line. He'll likely just be disappointed at the lameness. I don't even agree, I was just bringing it up as a talking point. If you go back to my initial post, you can see that I wasn't committed to the idea. It was just something I was interested to hear people's thoughts on.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Either way it's no worse than his recent half hearted run as RAW GM.

Ha, I won't argue that point much at all. Well, I might put them on par.

[Evil Vito]

People don't think of wrestling as a television show like any other. They just don't. That's why they are so butt-hurt about it being fake.

I don't agree with this. From what I've seen watching wrestling has become somewhat normalized because everyone's worked out that it's really not that different from any other show. If anything, I think the success of The Rock and Batista in the film industry has opened some eyes to the fact that it's a legitimate platform for people to perform in and potentially brand into other areas of the entertainment realm. If Cena's movie career takes off, and he's a charismatic enough guy that I think it will, that will only strengthen the position. Wrestling isn't stigmatized by the mainstream anymore.

Even my dad, who spent years upon years asking "when are you going to grow out of that stupid wrestling stuff?" stopped asking because he's finally realized it's just like having a devotion to any other TV show. Hell I've even shown him a few things when in years past he'd have never given it a chance. I showed him some serious, some funny, some just plain wacky. You know what stuff captured his interest most? Lucha Underground and The Final Deletion.

None of my friends who gave up on wrestling in the early 2000s give me any sort of shit about still watching. If anything, they've given me props and seem genuinely interested when I tell them about some of the stuff I've seen.

Also,

Also, why do you give a fuck what people see you watching? Anyone who judges you based on what television you watch is a faggot and not worth worrying about anyway. Check your insecurities bruh

This is precisely what I'd tell any wrestling fan worried that they're going to be viewed as uncool for watching it. It's not stigmatized anymore and anyone who thinks it is is probably a tryhard alpha male cunt anyway.

[#1-norm-fan]

It's definitely still stigmatized for a lot of people. Maybe not for being fake but for being a retarded form of entertainment for stupid, easily entertained people. I don't think The Rock was enough to shake that stigma for the rest of time. If they watched an episode of Raw it would probably just strengthen that point. I guess the dick spot would be better in some ways because at least it clearly isn't trying like WWE is.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The dick spot is better than 70 per cent of raw cuz at least its over. Not saying much but its tru. Its damn tru.

[Ultra Mantis]

Why would anyone actually care if Cornette isn't going to like them doing a spot? Why would Mick Foley or Cody Rhodes or Ciampa or Jushin Thunder Liger ever realistically sit there and think "I'd better not do that, Cornette wont like it"? He's not important.

[#1-norm-fan]

Well of all the people who state their opinions of stuff in wrestling that they find to be shitty online, he seems to be the one who gets the most attention. He must be doing something right.

[DaveWadding]

appealing to people who still wish it was 1983?

[Destor]

Wrestling is def still stigmatized and saying any different is just crazy

[Fignuts]

It is still stigmatized. And I still don't give a fuck.

Haters gonna hate. Do you.

[#1-norm-fan]

appealing to people who still wish it was 1983?

Most of his gripes with wrestling revolve around a lack of logic. If logic is a 1983 trait specifically, we're at a pretty sad point.

[Destor]

It is still stigmatized. And I still don't give a fuck.

Haters gonna hate. Do you.

Most of his gripes with wrestling revolve around a lack of logic. If logic is a 1983 trait specifically, we're at a pretty sad point.

Agreed x2

[Mr. Nerfect]

Why would anyone actually care if Cornette isn't going to like them doing a spot? Why would Mick Foley or Cody Rhodes or Ciampa or Jushin Thunder Liger ever realistically sit there and think "I'd better not do that, Cornette wont like it"? He's not important.

Cornette helped Foley out tremendously in WCW, and the two worked together quite closely in the WWF. You don't like him, but that's got nothing to do with the relationships he has fostered in professional wrestling over his career.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Most of his gripes with wrestling revolve around a lack of logic. If logic is a 1983 trait specifically, we're at a pretty sad point.

This. Of all the straw-man lobbed Cornette's way, this is the most basic and inane. He's often called an old man yelling at clouds, but he's more like Frank Grimes pointing out how insane Springfield is. To the people who throw that regurgitated complaint at Cornette, I always just think "You think he's out of touch, but you can't even read what he's actually saying? Who is really the one not keeping up here?"

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wrestling is def still stigmatized and saying any different is just crazy

Yeah, I'm glad other people have jumped in and said this, so it doesn't look like I simply dismissing Vito out of contrarianism.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cornette is the most successful podcaster IMO. Numbers aside. He's managed to keep himself relevant in wrestling because of it.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

But a lot of the time he's wrong. Particularly when it comes to anything Kenny Omega does lol

[Evil Vito]

Sorry but I'm still not seeing where this massive stigmatization of wrestling is in 2017. I'm really not. There used to be a time in post-Attitude Era where the slightest mention of wrestling in school got most of the room to stick their noses up and act like wrestling was for little kids. And that was well before the WWE product became PG.

In adulthood, most people who aren't wankers don't give a shit about what other people watch. When you see an ad for a movie you think looks bad - is your first thought "I'll pass on that one" or do you think "Who in their right mind would see that?" If it's the latter, you're probably an asshole.

If anybody did give you shit for watching, Fignuts' "who gives a fuck" approach is the right one. Watching something and acting like you're supposed to be ashamed for liking it is a hell of a lot more off-putting to me than watching something and just saying "yeah, I like this. So what?"

But I've not seen anybody give someone else shit for liking wrestling in a long time. Hell I've seen wrestling fans give other wrestling fans shit for liking comedy wrestling or whatever a lot more than I've seen non-fans care what a fan watches.

[Evil Vito]

This is pretty much what I view as the video game equivalent for anybody who gives someone shit for liking wrestling or liking a certain form of wrestling.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/rock_band.png

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Yeah, the only stigma I see is attached to all soap operas. Just watching trash TV in general and wrestling will never be more than that.

[Destor]

You guys clearly dont interact with casual and non fans very much then. Its a topic so cut and dry its really not worth the effort to have it. It exist. You are somehow oblivious to it. Its "pretty weird." The end.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I do every day at work and hell, even wear some wrasslin' shirts now and again. Maybe it's just different here.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Its similar stigma to watching reality tv. Just considered a cheap guilty pleasure or trash tv. If youre a hardcore fanboy people will think yr weird but that goes for fanboys of everything.

Wwe is trash tv tho so people arent wrong to wonder why we watch. It certainly poisons the well for roh and njpw

[Evil Vito]

I do every day at work and hell, even wear some wrasslin' shirts now and again. Maybe it's just different here.

Same here. Hence, I don't view it as an actual stigma. Only blowhards would think less of somebody because they watched something they didn't. Nobody who is worth anything would actually care about what you watch or what you choose to do with your spare time.

Well, unless you diddle kids. Fuck you if you diddle kids. Looking at you Zeeboe.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Its similar stigma to watching reality tv. Just considered a cheap guilty pleasure or trash tv. If youre a hardcore fanboy people will think yr weird but that goes for fanboys of everything.

Wwe is trash tv tho so people arent wrong to wonder why we watch. It certainly poisons the well for roh and njpw

Yeah, that's what I mean. I mean, you're basically watching simulated fight scenes tied together with a very loose story. It's not a huge stigma, it's just something that puts you in the same camp as people talking about Big Brother or Hollyoaks or whatever.

I'd say that NJPW and ROH would still be trash TV too, even if it's better. I don't think wrestling can ever be anything but that level.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Presentation is everything. If a more serious product was prevalent, people may not look at it like it was the godfather but more like a high octane action movie.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

But you also have to undo old interpretations going back to the original Wrestlemania. So not only do you need a product like that, but enough people watching it and for it to stay that high quality for many years. Sure, it's possible, but very difficult to attain and would likely need to be of a higher quality in all aspects than ROH or NJPW are.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I know im.just saying IF that was prevalent peoples perception would be different. But wwe is to wrestling as kleenex is to tissues.

[Fignuts]

Vito, just because you personally don't experience it, doesn't mean it's not there.

[Evil Vito]

And I still think people are overstating the extent to which it may exist. I understand people who just kinda throw it into the trash TV category - but I don't think people actively stick their nose up at it like they once did. Especially not when like 80% of stuff that comes out could be considered trash TV/guilty pleasure nowadays.

We live in a world where the Emoji Movie just came out. Wrestling ain't that bad.

[Mr. Nerfect]

But a lot of the time he's wrong. Particularly when it comes to anything Kenny Omega does lol

I think he's harsh on Omega, but I don't think he's wrong, per se. Omega is extremely overrated.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Look, we love wrestling. That's why we're here. We obviously don't care about the stigma to let it deter us, but it's definitely there. You said it yourself: "Trash TV." It's considered trash, regardless of whether or not you think it's trash, or I think it's trash.

And yeah, it's similar to reality TV, except I'd say possibly worse. People accept that people like to look down at the fools who go onto those shows. Wrestling's not that lofty.

[Juan]

I def. think wrestling is stigmatized by the "media" and advertisers, but outside of that, i think most people in general don't really give a shit.

[Bad News Gertner]

Wrestling is becoming more and more accepted by media because the people in media now were wrestling fans as kids. Look at ESPN. 10-15 years ago there's no WAY the WWE would have gotten on that network.

[Zeeboe]

Same here. Hence, I don't view it as an actual stigma. Only blowhards would think less of somebody because they watched something they didn't. Nobody who is worth anything would actually care about what you watch or what you choose to do with your spare time.

Well, unless you diddle kids. Fuck you if you diddle kids. Looking at you Zeeboe.


Are you flirting with me?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

The dick spot is better than 70 per cent of raw cuz at least its over. Not saying much but its tru. Its damn tru.

Raw is the most watched cable show on Monday nights. Dickspot is only over by a small amount of a paying audience. Others are just on-lookers like a trainwreck or some sort of accident.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Still more over than most of raw.

[Ultra Mantis]

Cornette helped Foley out tremendously in WCW, and the two worked together quite closely in the WWF. You don't like him, but that's got nothing to do with the relationships he has fostered in professional wrestling over his career.

But does that mean Foley is supposed to weigh up "Is Jim Cornette going to like this?" before he does anything?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Still more over than most of raw.

No.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Your terrible explanation doesnt change anything. Ryan gets a reaction. Raw is silent and pops worse ratings than the darkest days of wrestling.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Perhaps the touch of a woman will open your mind.

[#1-norm-fan]

Willing touch. WILLING TOUCH, STD!

[DAMN iNATOR]

Willing touch. WILLING TOUCH, STD!

#STDGAF

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

We will have to teach std about stds

[Lock Jaw]

Your terrible explanation doesnt change anything. Ryan gets a reaction. Raw is silent and pops worse ratings than the darkest days of wrestling.

Kurt Angle's Son Jason Jordan should do an Olympic Dick Flip.

[#1-norm-fan]

Sadly it would get him over better than whatever the fuck they're trying to do with him now.

[Mr. Nerfect]

But does that mean Foley is supposed to weigh up "Is Jim Cornette going to like this?" before he does anything?

That's exactly what I'm asking.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Your terrible explanation doesnt change anything. Ryan gets a reaction. Raw is silent and pops worse ratings than the darkest days of wrestling.

Yeah, but even with the shape it's in, more people still care about it more than Joey Ryan though.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah, but even with the shape it's in, more people still care about it more than Joey Ryan though.

I bet you Joey Ryan is making a lot more money than a lot of lower tier wwe guys because he found a niche. In fact i know construction workers making more than a lot of wwe talejnt.

[Blonde Moment]

Yeah, but even with the shape it's in, more people still care about it more than Joey Ryan though.

And that means what exactly? The same could be said for just about any indy wrestler. He has a gimmick that works for him, the fans seem to not be tired of it yet so as long as he's making money, the fans are happy who gives a shit?

People go to be entertained... whether it's to be chased out of your seats because the heels are being chased through the crowds or laugh at the comedy act involving midgets, or talk shit to the heel or the face and get a reaction , people come to be entertained and in the end that is what counts.