"Major RAW/SummerSlam Spoiler"

[FearedSanctity]

-- Chris Benoit is expected to hold on to the WWE World Heavyweight Championship at RAW.

-- HHH is currently being scheduled to face Eugene Dinsmore at SummerSlam.

-- Chris Benoit is being scheduled to face Randy Orton at SummerSlam for the World Title, with current plans being to put the belt on Orton.

These are all still rumors, but are being reported by generally reliable sources.

[Credit: PWInsider.com, PWTorch.com, WrestlingObserver.com]


If this has been posted before, my bad

[The Naitch]

Orton as World Champ? WOW. Already?

[The Naitch]

LC is going to blow his load and shatter his monitor. Just wait

[Loose Cannon]

Yeah, Orton is not winning the belt at Summerslam.

And it's funny because when I went on PWInsider this afternoon, it said Benoit would face HHH at Summerslam. HMMMMM

[Kane Knight]

Rumours are not spoilers.

Also, who wants to bet that Eugene vs HHH is the main event?

[Loose Cannon]

Orton/Edge Summerslam for thE IC. I hope it's a Ladder match too

[Kane Knight]

Yeah, Orton is not winning the belt at Summerslam.

And it's funny because when I went on PWInsider this afternoon, it said Benoit would face HHH at Summerslam. HMMMMM
Dude. It was on the internet. IT MUST BE TRUE.

[FearedSanctity]

That's why I put the quotation marks

[Kane Knight]

Orton/Edge Summerslam for thE IC. I hope it's a Ladder match too
I hope it's a "personality on a pole" match.

No way anyone would buy Edge winning that. ;)

[Kane Knight]

That's why I put the quotation marks
Sorry, what difference does that make

[Kane Knight]

?

[FearedSanctity]

Not my title for it, just the title it had when I found it

[Mr. Nerfect]

I was either seeing a Triple Threat IC Title Match with Orton/Edge/Benjamin. Other than that I wa sexpecting Orton to be involved in a match with Jericho or something. I thought Edge could be in the main event in a IC vs. World Heavyweight Title Match.

Orton vs. Benoit is a possibility, but things are likely to change. I'm expecting Triple H and/or Eugene to be added to the match.

[The Naitch]

Edge bores the shit out of me. I can't stand him

[Loose Cannon]

As of right now you can expect:

HHH/Benoit:World Title/ Eugene will be Guest Ref
Orton/Edge: IC Title
JBL/Taker: World Title
Eddie/Kurt

[The Naitch]

The only thing that could save Summerslam is Orton/Rock. I could only wish.

[FearedSanctity]

I have no problem with HHH vs. Benoit with Eugene as guest ref. But I would much prefer Orton over Benoit.

[Loose Cannon]

Actually, if Benoit loses the Title this Monday, there is a good chance HHH will not face hum at Summerslam. But, it's wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to early for Orton to be in a World Title match. Orton has got "Rock" momentum that he had right before Summerslam 98. He needs to go babyface before he gets the Title.

[FearedSanctity]

Agree completly, but still....

Orton = :y:

[The CyNick]

Normally I believe nothing that comes from PWI, but at least part of the story was stolen news from Meltzer who says HHH is not facing Benoit at Summerslam. SO that probably means he's got Eugene. That leaves Benoit without a program, makes sense it could be with Orton, Edge would then go with Batista. Now, that doesn't guarantee that it would be for the title or that Orton would win, but stranger things have happened.

[Loose Cannon]

OK, I'm starting to see a good thing here if they really do go Orton/Benoit. If they do that, then it really should be a ladder match. I can see the people wanting Benoit to win, but then they really want Orton to win also. Kind of like Summerslam 98, like I said before. I think this match could definately solidify Orton as a main eventer and start his babyface turn. Oh man, this could be interesting.

[Loose Cannon]

Orton shouldn't win the belt though. He has to come soooooooooooo close which makes the fans feel sorry for him at the end. Then the fans start longing for him to be Champ and that's when he gets it. I say he beats Hunter for it.

[The CyNick]

Orton shouldn't win the belt though. He has to come soooooooooooo close which makes the fans feel sorry for him at the end. Then the fans start longing for him to be Champ and that's when he gets it. I say he beats Hunter for it.

Yeah thats what I would do as well, but you never know whats going on up in Titan Land.

[ColdwaVer]

But, it's wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to early for Orton to be in a World Title match.

Why does that really matter though? Orton has already been in WWE at least three times the amount of time Lesnar was before his first title win, and he's got a major IC title run under his belt, and a future classic match with Mick Foley. You know how Vince is about blowing loads too soon, if he thinks the wind is blowing towards Orton being World Champion, you can bet Randy will have it sooner than later.

[Kane Knight]

Lesnar wasn't quite as green.

IMO, of course.

[ColdwaVer]

Lesnar wasn't quite as green.

IMO, of course.

Maybe not, but I think Orton is way over at this point.

[Loose Cannon]

Yeah, but Lesner is a lot different then Orton. Lesner was big, was intiminating, had no mic skills, and just seemed like a guy who could get the belt fast. With Orton, the fans really are starting to get behind him, like Rock in 98. Now, you have to make the fans long for him to be Champion and make him come ever so close to being Champ. That way, it will be even greater when he does win the Belt. You give the Belt to him right away and the fans probably won't care about him like they would if you make him chase the Belt.

I say he turns babyface, feuds with Hunter/Evolution/Bischoff and keeps getting scerwed by them. The fans will get behind him and then he wins the Title.

[Loose Cannon]

Remember how over Rock was right before SurvivoR Series 98? Remember when he "Rock Bottomed" Vince right before the PPV? Remember when he almost didn't get to be in the Survivor Series Tournament because he had a match with Shamrock where he had to pin him or Vince said he wasn't going to the Tournament? Well Shamrock hit Rock with a chair and got DQ'ed and Vince said Rock wasn't going to Survivor Series.

But then the next week on Raw, The Rock did something to get into the Tournament.

Anyway, the fans were really behind him at that point. That's exactly how you do this with Orton.

Now the question is, do you turn Orton heel again right after he just turned babyface?

[Kane Knight]

Maybe not, but I think Orton is way over at this point.
Yeah, but the question is how well he can handle a main event slot.

[Innovator]

Benoit/Orton would be a solid RAW main event.

Think about it, this is Orton's chance to get a real main event rub. There is no doubt in my mind that Benoit can and will bring the best out of Orton. The WWE can also play it safe since Summerslam is in Canada. There is no chance of Benoit getting booed in Canada.

[MVP]

Here's how I think Orton should go about winning the World Title.

Let's assume after Summerslam that Trips defeats Benoit to regain the title. The next night on RAW Benoit demands a rematch, but Bischoff refuses to give him one because he feels that Orton should be #1 contender. Orton is unsure he should take on the challenge, and Evolution convinces him to do it, so if he were to face Trips for the title he'd just throw the match. So Orton and Benoit have a match for the title shot, and Orton cleanly defeats Benoit, What's even more shocking is that Benoit and Orton shake hands at the end, foreshadowing Orton's face turn.

On the next RAW Evolution is pissed that Orton showed Benoit any respect, and Orton completes his face turn by saying to Trips that he's not going to throw the match because it's "his turn, and Trips had his glory." So babyface Orton feuds with Trips for weeks on end until they have a glorifed match on PPV where Orton picks up a clean victory over Trips, and the World Heavyweight title.

PS - I don't whether Flair should turn face along with Orton as his manager, or if he should just stay with Trips.

[Kane Knight]

Keep Flair off of Orton.

Also, they need to hold off on giving him the title. It's not that he hasn't paid his dues or whatever, because I don't believe in it. I just don't think he can be considered ready.

Don't get me wrong, he's awesome on the mic, but he is green.

[Loose Cannon]

TO MVP and to Kane Knight to an extent.

Good idea, but they really should do his babyface turn, where he breaks from Evo, really slow. I say he has the match with Benoit at Summerslam and comes up short. Trips starts to get real jelous of Orton and tells Orton that he should of never accepted that match with Benoit at Summerslam. Evolution agrees with HHH and they ask Orton where his head is at. Then as the Raw shows go on, you have Orton doing these "little" things which get under HHH's skin and irriates him. Then HHH starts putting Orton in crappy matches and keeps shunning Orton more and more. Batista and Flair do the same. Finally, Orton gets a rematch for the Title on a Raw or a PPV. Evolution would come out during the match, which would make it seem that they will help Orton. But instead, they turn on Orton and kick the crap out of him. Then Orton gets his revenge on Evolution in the coming months after. Then you do Orton/HHH at Mania for the Title and Orton gets the Belt. BINGO.

[Splaya]

I agree with everyone here when I say they should not put the title on Orton...yet. I think they should do it at Survivor Series. Have him beat HHH. Then you go to the Royal Rumble and John Cena wins it. Cena goes to WM where he beats Kurt Angle clean and Orton defends against HHH and beats him. Cena turns heel shortly after Mania. They both go on vicious runs defeating people left and right, but doing the "jobs" in tag matches. All of a sudden, on a RAW in the summer Cena shows up on RAW and says that he is done with SD. That they are all a bunch of losers, that he has beaten them all. That now he is a legend. Bring in Orton right after Legend is mentioned. Orton talks the talk and walks the walk by just destroying Cena. Orton then goes to Eric Bischoff and demands that Cena be traded to RAW. Bisch leaves the hint that this might just be the start of SD superstars coming to RAW (the end of the roster split) Cena comes to Raw and starts a program with Orton. They battle at SS 2005 in a singles match where Cena goes over with his feet on the ropes. They have a little bit more of a feud which will lead us up to Survivor Series. Orton, sick of Cena's bullshit, will demand a unification of the two titles and a ladder match. You have Orton/Cena in a singles match, some tag matches and a ladder match to unify the titles. I think this could go a long way.


I thought of this out of my ass

[Kane Knight]

cena shouldn't be heel. He should be the whole Austin-Antihero.

[I-Hate-You]

But then the next week on Raw, The Rock did something to get into the Tournament.
He defeated Mark Henry.

[mrslackalack]

I guess WM21 is when Cena or Edge will get a world title.

[Rock Bottom]

Here is what I would do.

Make Orton Evolution's bitch. Have Edge cheat again at SummerSlam to go over Orton for the IC title. Fans are already starting to sympathize with Orton over Edge's gay cheating. After taking three losses to Edge, without really hurting Orton's credibility since Edge is cheating, which also gives Edge heel heat for his turn, where he goes back to the blonde surfer boy type who cheats. Put him against Jericho, and a fresh heel with an IC title against a bunch of misused midcard faces is a hot ticket. This would elevate Edge, give Jericho something to do that's actually worth his skills, and for Orton...

Have Evolution lose confidence in Orton. With Triple H giving off the idea that Orton isn't that great anymore, after taking three straight losses to Edge. Say he embarassed Evolution. Everyone knows this is complete shit, because Orton had such a long reign with the belt and went over Foley twice. Evolution stops taking Randy Orton seriously. They start turning their attention to Batista to get the job done for the future.

Why? Because Batista didn't fail to get the job done. After knocking Jericho out, and annihilating Chris Benoit, Batista is now something that could be taken seriously with the proper momentum, while involving him in a major storyline. Batista continues to be successful, punishing and defeating all mid-card jobbers who oppose Evolution, while Randy Orton is constantly insulted by Evolution's lack of faith in him.

Line up a bunch of jabronis for Randy Orton for a few weeks. Pull the Brooklyn Brawler out of the wood shed, a Bushwhacker, and guys like that. Orton would obviously go over in a few squash matches, while the fans are entertained by the "jobbing legends" of the WWE.

This doesn't hurt anyone in Evolution, and sympathy continues to grow for Orton. RAW is working to increase its ratings for their new TV contract, they're going to be looking to put some serious fireworks on RAW, as we will see this Monday when Benoit defends against Edge in the Iron Man Match. That is a HIGH PROFILE match. Continue the momentum after Triple H regains the World Heavyweight Championship by having a 15-Man Over-The-Top-Rope elimination match, or a tournament.

Push Benoit to the moon in the match, having him end up as the final man with Orton, whether it be the battle royal or a tournament. If it's one on one, send him packing with Batista cheating (thus hinting that Batista may have Benoit's number, and setting Benoit up to regain some credibility at a future PPV) and if it's a battle royal have Orton skin the cat or something. But make him look talented.

Then as Orton gets his match, he has his chance to "make it up" to Evolution, after "embarassing" them, he can lay down for Triple H, and that's where the idea comes into play (I realize other people mentioned the Orton laying down for Trips scenerio) where he ends up refusing.

It is too soon to give him the title IMO. Have Evolution beat the shit out of him in the match after he refuses to lie down. Randy Orton is now one pissed off, mad over face.

To contact me for booking employment, send a mail to thej2ock@hotmail.com.

:p

[#1-norm-fan]

Okay, I've tried and I can't picture ANY way HHH-Benoit could work @ SummerSlam. Seriously, if this does end up being the main event, it will make 5 times in 5 months that they faced for the title. Even HHH and HBK never approached THAT. You add Eugene as ref and what happens? Eugene costs HHH the title? (They JUST did that). Eugene costs BENOIT the title? (Would be fine by me but most everyone else would be pissed.)

Orton beating Benoit for the title though would be scrumptrilescent! :love:

[Shaggy]

Holy crap, Orton getting the belt already. I cant wait till this happens. I will have to make sure my brother is in the room with me so I can laugh at him when Orton wins. But then again I guess if Orton loses he will be laughing at me. God I hope this is true.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think they should delay the Orton/Evolution/Benoit thing. If it's rushed, they could lose future talent. I'd have a controversal "title win" by Triple H on RAW. Have Triple H take the lead and have him go outside as the timer runs out. Earl Hebner counts Triple H just as the buzzer goes off. Since the ref never made the call during the duration of the match, Triple H crowns himself the new World Heavyweight Champion. Out comes Vince McMahon who says that officially Triple H was counted out, even if the bell wasn't rung before time. He restarts the match under sudden death format.

During the restarted match, out runs Orton, which accidentally leads to Triple H getting put in the Crippler Crossface and having to tap out. This puts heat between Triple H and Orton. Triple H does his demanding the title skit, and Bischoff says he just can't give the shot to Triple H. He will crown a new contender in a Battle Royale. In my dream world, The Rock would stampede to the ring and give Triple H some competition. Triple H wins the Battle Royale, but only after massive interference by Evolution (namely Batista). Vince McMahon makes the match at Summerslam in a Triple Threat Match. Maybe a 2/3 Falls-ish stipulation could be introduced. BBenoit retains cleanly with a final submission over The Rock. Orton accidentally costs Triple H the match again, as Batista enters a full-fledged program with The Rock.

Also at Summerslam, Batista not only goes over Chris Jericho again, but also teams with Ric Flair against William Regal & Eugene (in which the faces go over). If you are deadset against Batista doing double duty, you can have Bischoff take his place alongside Ric Flair.

Anyway long story short. Eventually Orton takes the title away from Benoit under Triple H's nose, leading to a big match between the two at WrestleMania.

[#1-norm-fan]

As far as Orton not being "ready" for the world title, I think that once he got a clean win over Mick Foley (In a hardcore match no less) that should have solidified him as "ready". Granted, WWE hasn't really built on the momentum from the Foley match but it was still HUGE.

[Teenager-icon]

am I the only one here who think Orton is not even worth of the world title mean i want tink Y2j or edge to get it before some dam rookie who doesn't even desiver to be in wwe get it come on we need people like mick foley and Rock winning titles not begin beat by asshole like Orton

[tucsonspeed6]

am I the only one here who think Orton is not even worth of the world title mean i want tink Y2j or edge to get it before some dam rookie who doesn't even desiver to be in wwe get it come on we need people like mick foley and Rock winning titles not begin beat by asshole like Orton

TS6 termination mode: ON.
Target Set.
Begin Sequence.


"Y2j is worth of the world title and Orton is free of any sivers and we need old guys who don't even work for the company anymore except on a biyearly basis come on go guys win titles and dont let newguys win the titles cause they dont even get rid of sivers like you do"

Let me begin, dumbass, by saying :( . I say that because people like you make me sad. How many times must I repeat myself here? READ A BOOK! Face v. face doesn't work except at WrestleMania. You want to know why? Who would you root for? Personally, I think you'd be a dumbass and would try to start a "What" chant and laugh to yourself about the clever originality of the gag while everyone around you wished you were dead. But everybody else in the arena would be split. Some would chant "Benoit" while others "Y2J" or "Rocky!" and the match would lose something that we who don't live with our heads up our asses call "HEAT" that is, the enjoyability of the match. YOu see, at Wrestlemania, the matches have a kind of immunity. It's an oppertunity for us fans to find out who would win in a fight. Both men shake hands respectfully afterwards, and we cheer for the winner. At any other PPV it doesn't matter who wins...both men lose overness. There will always be somebody who will say "I think Y2J should have won. He's obviously better!" And suddenly to the individual, Benoit is no longer a credible champion, and for as long as he's champ, he will be a heel to them.

[Loose Cannon]

am I the only one here who think Orton is not even worth of the world title mean i want tink Y2j or edge to get it before some dam rookie who doesn't even desiver to be in wwe get it come on we need people like mick foley and Rock winning titles not begin beat by asshole like Orton

lol.

[Jaton]

Maybe it's too early, but I sure would love to see Orton with that big gold belt around his waist. :)

[Kane Knight]

am I the only one here who think Orton is not even worth of the world title mean i want tink Y2j or edge to get it before some dam rookie who doesn't even desiver to be in wwe get it come on we need people like mick foley and Rock winning titles not begin beat by asshole like Orton
Your typing makes my eyes sad.

[Kane Knight]

Maybe it's too early, but I sure would love to see Orton with that big gold belt around his waist. :)
Team him up with Rico. I'm sure that guy's got a ton of gawdy jewelry in his closet.

[tucsonspeed6]

THis Viacom renegotiations for Raw really makes me believe that an Orton/Benoit main event would be more likely than a HHH/Benoit main event. The Orton/Benoit match opens up a whole can of storyline worms, while the HHH/Eugene angle can come to a climax sometime in the near future moving into the breakup of Evolution. If I were Vince, here's how I'd do it.

Booker: Say, Vince, the writing staff and I have come up with a good idea for the breakup of Evolution.

Vince: Evolution breakup? Sounds good, but save it until after Summerslam so we can get the most ratings for Raw before our contract with Viacom gets up.

[Vega]

Actually, if Benoit loses the Title this Monday, there is a good chance HHH will not face hum at Summerslam. But, it's wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy to early for Orton to be in a World Title match. Orton has got "Rock" momentum that he had right before Summerslam 98. He needs to go babyface before he gets the Title.
:y: :y: :y:

[#1-norm-fan]

I dunno... this rumor about HHH vs. Eugene and Benoit vs. Orton @ SummerSlam is on the main page now. I'm thinking it's true.

I will SO go LC if Orton wins the title!

[Lara Emily]

Oton beating Benoit now would be stupid. There'd be no build up to Orton's big title win :| plus it's way to early

[Loose Cannon]

^^Yeah, exactly.

[#1-norm-fan]

Both valid points.

But RANDY ORTON WOULD BE WORLD CHAMPION. :love:

If it wasn't for the way they have misused Orton since the Foley match, it wouldn't be too soon. There wouldn't need to be a huge build to a Benoit-Orton feud. The background could just be that Orton and Benoit have both looked unstoppable and now they go one on one to see who can be stopped. I'd prefer that over some lame "I cost you some matches, you cost me some matches, then we wrestle at the PPV" feud.

[Lara Emily]

^^Yeah, exactly.

I love your ladder match idea. Mostly because that would rule live :D and I could see Benoit's first real big title defence that doesn't involve HHH or HBK.

[The CyNick]

Rock won the WWE Title before it was clear that he was ready to headline. He went form dropping the IC title as a heel to Hunter at Summerslam to winning the WWE Title not even 3 months later at SurvSer. If this scenario plays out as is being talked about, Orton would be in a very similar situation. He's just dropped the IC title to a babyface rival, and 6 weeks later he'll be World Champion. Granted thats a little less time then Rock had between titles, but in terms of "being ready" I think they are close to the same.

I will say, I think Rock was more over in terms of mic skills, but he had never main evented before winning the title, so in a lot of ways they are similar.

The good thing I can see coming from this is that I can come up with a ton of matches Orton can have between now and Mania (assuming thats against Hunter). The most obvious will be a rematch with Benoit, which can probably be done at No Mercy and maybe again at the 2nd PPV in Oct. Then you've got Edge, who can claim a title shot based on the fact that he's got several wins over Randy. Whenever Shelton gets back they could have some matches (probably not worthy of PPV, but would make very good TV matches). And then they've got HBK, who could be built back up with his program with Kane in the Fall, and then maybe set up a title match in Nov, or Jan against Orton. So there's a lot of stuff there that looks promising.

Of course a lot depends on how they handle Evolution after Orton gets the title (if it happens). Will they do a turn right away? Or do they do the smarter thing and play off tension between Orton and Hunter. Orton would act like the leader now that he's the champ, but HHH would say "no kid, I'm still in charge". That leads to tension, and an eventually break up.

The only concern I have is that this will mean Hunter will be the one to turn babyface and he'll take the title from Orton at Mania, which will suck.

What might be better is to have Orton go into Mania as the champ, and instead of facing Hunter, he faces Rocky for the title. Orton gets the big win, and then perhaps after Mania Hunter takes the title from Orton. Or better yet, Hunter never gets the title again.....too mcuh to ask for.

[Champion of Europa]

I'd love if Orton won the belt. Especially if he got if off Benoit. :mad:

[Mr. Nerfect]

The more and more I think abou tit, the more and more I like the idea of Orton being champ. He's green gold in the ring, not to mention easily having the charisma to get anyone into his matches. I can see Orton vs. Triple H, Orton vs. Batista, Orton vs. Jericho or Orton vs. Benjamin at Mania 21. Orton could really help the business if he had the title. :y:

[Loose Cannon]

Summerslam is in like 3 weeks though. I really don't see the Orton/Benoit Title match because there is no build. The only way I see the match happening is if HHH wins the Title on Raw (which I am almost convinced he will) and Orton somehow gets involved in the match, which leads to Orton/Benoit at Summerslam. But, it wouldn't be for the Title. If this were the case, Orton has to go over Benoit.

Well, things will be a lot clearer Monday night.

[Loose Cannon]

And everyone get off the Orton bandwagon :mad: Where were you people 6 months ago when I needed backup in defending him? :mad:

[Mr. Nerfect]

And everyone get off the Orton bandwagon :mad: Where were you people 6 months ago when I needed backup in defending him? :mad:

I've always liked Orton, but I haven't loved him. I don't really either now. Orton has entertained me endlessly with his promos and matches. I'm still sure he did that slip on the turnbuckle at Bad Blood before his match with Benjamin deliberately.

[Azriel]

I don't think Benoit should be in a ladder match at SS, especially since he'll have a recent gimmick match under his belt with the Ironman match on Monday

[Champion of Europa]

And everyone get off the Orton bandwagon :mad: Where were you people 6 months ago when I needed backup in defending him? :mad:

I've been on the Orton bandwagon ever since I saw his match against Smooth Robby D at OVW Christmas Chaos.

I just didn't like the wrestling forum when you had to defend him. :p

[Champion of Europa]

BTW, I honestly don't think they'd give Edge a Ladder Match so soon after his neck surgery.

[Loose Cannon]

I've been on the Orton bandwagon ever since I saw his match against Smooth Robby D at OVW Christmas Chaos.

I just didn't like the wrestling forum when you had to defend him. :p

I've been, I've always. YEAH YEAH YEAH. So you didn't like the wrestling forum since last year? I want answers :mad:

I'm j/k guys, I could care less if you like him now and hated him before. At least most of you have finally seen the light.

[Kane Knight]

And everyone get off the Orton bandwagon :mad: Where were you people 6 months ago when I needed backup in defending him? :mad:
When's the last time I backed anyone up in the wrestling forum?

Besides, a lot of the OPrton opponents have valid points. Orton is being shoved down our throats. Oversaturation is one of the surestways to killoff interest. It's a miracle that Orton's over.

[Loose Cannon]

Yeah, you never liked Orton, so I would't expect backup from you. :)

Oversaturation is what the WWE loves to do these days anyway. Look at Brock, Eugene, Cena. You can't really say it's a "miracle" Orton is over. What's the WWE suppossed to do to get someone over? Just let them sit back and do nothing. In this day and age, wrestling fans don't have a lot of patience. You can't build guys up for years like back in the day anymore. Once a guys hot, you push him.

And if the fans were getting tired of Orton being shoved down "our" throats, I don't think they would be cheering him as a heel now. So the WWE's plan worked if he's getting cheered as a heel.

[Lara Emily]

I actually don't hate Orton, I find him to be funny at times, mostly with his facial expressions, he's hit and miss on the mic. His ring work will be fantastic one day, you can see glimpses of this in hos current ring work, he's still a ltitle green that's all. In a yera or two he'll be great. Right now though him getting the world title is just a bad bad idea, he's over but what next? He needs to chase it, his first title win needs to be as a face and in needs to be much later.

The one only thing that really has gotten on my neres was the incessant posts about Orton, I'm suprised we didn't get any with titles like: Orton uses Colgate Total Details Inside, I think this moslty stems from a lot of the newer posters wanting to get acknowledged by LC (half of them even pretty much said so in their posts, see what you've done LC ;)) Actually I lied there's two tings, the other is that the RKO lacks impact, something that will come with time I hope.

[Azriel]

I think, looking back, I really didn't start liking Orton until he started becoming a heel, with the RNN stuff, but I really started liking him when he joined Evolution.

His career path is very, almost eerily similar to The Rock's career. When he first started off as a face, it was very Rocky Maivia-ish.

[Loose Cannon]

yeah, like I said once before, once Orton goes babyface, I think he'll do the RKO's like DDP's Cutters. He'll start hitting them from various spots. It's more of a babyface kind of thing.

[RemyRed]

Same thing annoyed me with all of these posts about Carmella out of nowhere. I kinda hope that none of em get hired.

[Kane Knight]

I wouldn't say Eugene was really shoved at us as aggressively as Orton.

However, oversaturation with Eugene caused him to start losing cheers really fast.

A lot of people DID get tired of Randy Orton being shoved down their throats, so I'm wondering if you're making this argument just to sound like a fuckwit, or if you can't stop humping his leg long enough to dial in reality for a sec.

In fact, most of the people complaining were complaining about him being shoved down our throats, undeserving, etc. This is why it's a Miracle that it worked.

Incidentally, there is a difference between marketing someone and oversaturation of the market. Please try to understand that there is middle ground between force feeding and not promoting at all.

If you can't get even that minor concept, then I guess I have nothing more to say.

[Lara Emily]

yeah, like I said once before, once Orton goes babyface, I think he'll do the RKO's like DDP's Cutters. He'll start hitting them from various spots. It's more of a babyface kind of thing.
It's onot even the out of nowhere bit, it's just the whole look of the move. It reminds me off the old Ace Crusher from No Mercy. It just doesn't have that impact factor that a move like that should have.

[Kane Knight]

It's onot even the out of nowhere bit, it's just the whole look of the move. It reminds me off the old Ace Crusher from No Mercy. It just doesn't have that impact factor that a move like that should have.
Yeah, it doesn't look that devastating as a finisher.

[Innovator]

neither did the Atomic Leg Drop of Doom

[Kane Knight]

neither did the Atomic Leg Drop of Doom
So what you're saying is that Orton would have been over in the 80s?

[Loose Cannon]

Look, I'm not going to start calling you names or anything. I'm making the argument based on what I'm seeing on TV and on PPV. Orton is getting cheered against the babyfaces. Cheering usually means that people like you. People might of gotten tired of Orton being shoved down our throats in the begginning, but now they're starting to come around. It's not a "miracle" at all that he's over. Orton has been improving ever since he turned heel and people see that. Orton got over because he's good in the ring and he has a good presence. I'm not being ignorant because the facts are right in front of you. If the fans didn't like him, they would give him no reponse at all. If that was the case, I would agree with you, but it's not.

Hell, even Lara, who hated Orton in the begginning, says he's getting good. And it's hard for me to say Orton is still green. Because if you say he's green, you're kind of putting him in the same catagory as guys like Tomko, Cade, Luther etc.. Now, those guys are what I consider Green.

[Innovator]

So what you're saying is that Orton would have been over in the 80s?
fuck yeah he would have, lame finisher or not

[Loose Cannon]

And I love how Orton sets up the RKO. The way he ducks down and gestures his hands as if saying "come on" and then BAM. Works for me. Hell, Cena does a weak impact finisher on Smackdown too and he's over. And while I'm there, how do you feel about Cena? He's getting shoved down people's throats even more then Orton and he's way over.

[Kane Knight]

Look, I'm not going to start calling you names or anything. I'm making the argument based on what I'm seeing on TV and on PPV. Orton is getting cheered against the babyfaces. Cheering usually means that people like you. People might of gotten tired of Orton being shoved down our throats in the begginning, but now they're starting to come around. It's not a "miracle" at all that he's over. Orton has been improving ever since he turned heel and people see that. Orton got over because he's good in the ring and he has a good presence. I'm not being ignorant because the facts are right in front of you. If the fans didn't like him, they would give him no reponse at all. If that was the case, I would agree with you, but it's not.

Hell, even Lara, who hated Orton in the begginning, says he's getting good. And it's hard for me to say Orton is still green. Because if you say he's green, you're kind of putting him in the same catagory as guys like Tomko, Cade, Luther etc.. Now, those guys are what I consider Green.
Facts are rigtht in front of me.

Man, you really are a full of shit fanboy.

Lara's saying he's getting good. That doesn't have a God Damn thing to do with my argument. That doesn't change the oversaturation. That doesn't change the fact that it IS a fucking Miracle that they weren't permanently turned off by him being shoved at us.

"Bricks don't fly. Therefore, sunrise is pretty." --Lovely logic there, but totally stupid.

[Kane Knight]

fuck yeah he would have, lame finisher or not
Well, that's the thing. You didn't have to wrestle in the 80s.

[Loose Cannon]

I brought in Lara because she was one of those peope that kept saying Orton kept getting shoved down our throats in the begginning and now she is seeing that he actually isn't all that bad. Just used her as an example. Even other people on this board who extremely hated Orton before are saying the same thing.

Yes, he got shoved down our throats in the begginning to get him over. Got that.

Now, he's over and is getting cheered because he's good. You have to give credit when credit is due. If he was still the same Orton like 6 months ago, people wouldn't give a shit about him. He's improved greatly.

[Lara Emily]

Look, I'm not going to start calling you names or anything. I'm making the argument based on what I'm seeing on TV and on PPV. Orton is getting cheered against the babyfaces. Cheering usually means that people like you. People might of gotten tired of Orton being shoved down our throats in the begginning, but now they're starting to come around. It's not a "miracle" at all that he's over. Orton has been improving ever since he turned heel and people see that. Orton got over because he's good in the ring and he has a good presence. I'm not being ignorant because the facts are right in front of you. If the fans didn't like him, they would give him no reponse at all. If that was the case, I would agree with you, but it's not.

Hell, even Lara, who hated Orton in the begginning, says he's getting good. And it's hard for me to say Orton is still green. Because if you say he's green, you're kind of putting him in the same catagory as guys like Tomko, Cade, Luther etc.. Now, those guys are what I consider Green.
Hello???? I never hated Orton.I just hated and still hate the god like hype and status he's been given.

[Kane Knight]

He's not gonna let your own words get you in the way of what he wanted to hear you say though. He's a fanboy with a hardon for shunting away logic like a lightning rod.

[Innovator]

hate hate hate hate hate hate

[Kane Knight]

By the way, since you're too much of a retard to have noted the numerous times I have given Orton praise, I'll just point it out for you yet again.

I know, it's a tinfoil hat conspiracy. Everyone who doesn't circlejerk with your and Randy is against you. Against Orton, BAHGAWD!

Again, you stop to egojerk Orton with a stupid statement which is both ignorant and irrelevent.

[Lara Emily]

Let me further clarify, I have and still do find Orton's oush to be too much too soon, a World title will just rocket that to a whole new level. I have never ever said that Orton sucks, merely that I feel he is slight overrated and currently overpushed, to put it short he is not the wrestling god a lot of people say he is. I even further point out much of my dislike of Orton stems from the oversutarion of Orton posts on this board and the general worship he gets. It grates on my nerves.

[Loose Cannon]

Look: I'm a reatrd, a fuckwit and a full of shit fanboy. All for saying Orton was over right now. That's all I'm trying to say. Right Now, he's arguably the most over babyface on Raw and he's a heel. Just ask CyNick, he'll tell you. And I know people respect CyNick on this board. If they don't keep pushing Orton, the WWE is pretty retarded. What, are they just going to sit back and let all this momentum he's got going with him go to waste?

Lara, I really thought you hated Orton with all of your neative posts towards him in the beginning. It seemed like you despised him.

[Kane Knight]

No, all for making an argument against what I was saying, by trying to prove it with irrelevent points.

But why would I expect you to even get that right? Why ruin a perfect streak of not getting it? Martyr yourself, fanboy. That's right. I'm nailing you up to the cross because I hate Randy Orton. Really. IT's really true, and not some black helicopter fantasy of yours.

[Loose Cannon]

ok, "I don't know what the hell you just said" (Kurt Angle) Not to sound like an ass, but I seriously just lost you there. Martyr myself? I know Lara didn't really have anything to do with out argument like you said, but what does Martyring myself and balck helicopers have to do with it?

Orton got shoved down our throats in the begginning to get over with the fans: YES

Is he over now with the fans after about a year of pushing him? Yes

Should he be World champ? NO

Should they continue to push him to the moon? Yes

WHY? Bceause that's what the fans want as heard by there cheering for him.

That's all.

[Kane Knight]

Not to sound like an asshole...

A little late for that. You misrepresent my statements, bring up irrelevent lines and bullshit that leaves me wondering if you're even on the same wavelength, use his overness now as an argument that it's any less a miracle the fans didn't totally give up on him...

...But why let the facts get in the way?

They shouldn't push Orton past his means to sustain himself.

It's still possible to shoot his load now. You yourself said they shouldn't give him the title, which clearly shows that they should, on some level, limit the radical push. I don't think you grasp how self-contradictory your own statements are.

Pushing wrestlers is like marketing. in fact, it IS marketing. I've studied music, an entertainment business, enough to know that when you "push" a band to far too fast, people will wear on them. Oversaturation of a market is still a threat even after the first hit single, gold record, etc.

Don't push Orton to the moon.

Find an orbit where the fans can still buy him.

Wow. He got cheers against a guy with no real current peronsality or gimmick. Must prove he should be pushed really hard. :y:

But you know what? I hope they do overpush Randy.

Then he'll be yesterdays news and we won't have to hear you egojerk him every nine seconds. That's assuming you can avoid killing yourself when he's downgraded after his 15 minutes of fame.

And another talent wasted, which will make the WWE par for the course.

So yeah, let's be stupid and push orton to the moon! That'll be especially good for Orton fans if they blow it or push him too hard! You'll really benefit then.

[Loose Cannon]

He got cheers against Benjamin and got cheers against Foley. So, you can't just bring Edge into this. Also, why are you taking personnal attacks on me for. This is about Orton, not me. I won't be killing myself if Orton gets depushed and is downgraded. Let's be real now. I see why people don't like arguing with you, because you just take shots at people calling them stupid and calling them morons if they don't agree with you.


You say I bring up irrelevent lines. But, like I said, what does black hellicopters and Martying myself have to do with this? You keep taking shots at me when I'm trying to be reasonable by stating what I'm seeing on TV and reading about in the newsletters. Orton is getting cheered at Raw, cheered at PPV's, cheered at House shows and that's all I'm saying.

I've already established that he was shoved down our throats. But, what can you do about it? Depush him while he's got a lot of momentum? They've got to push him right now.

Now, does push him to the moon mean a World Title at Summerslam? No, it doesn't. He just needs to be kept strong and be protected. Let's face it, Orton's not going anywhere. He's going to be around for a while. If he's not, I will literally be shocked. And you can quote that if you want. Orton is the WWE's next star, just like Cena. And Cena's getting pushed to the moon on Smackdown right now, so it's not like the WWE is just concentrating on Orton.

When Rock was getting cheered as a heel, they pushed him to the moon and gave him the World Title real quick. Not to say Orton is the Rock, cause he's not, but it has happened before and it has worked.

[mrslackalack]

I cant wait for a Cena-Orton match and they almost wrestled at a OVW show this year!!!!!

[The CyNick]

You know Ive read good points on both sides of this issue (even though I think you guys are pretty much on the same wave length), I just think the personal crap should stop.

Here's my two cents:

I dont really think Orton to this point has been "pushed down our throats". He started out as an arrogant babyface, took some lumps against guys like HBK and then eventually got the IC title. Slowly from there he's been worked into main event programs, mostly because of the stuff with Foley. Now they are at a point where they feel he is getting cheers (BTW its not just the PPV matches, but even at house shows most reports were saying he was getting big pops fromt he crowds) and since they need new stars, he's the right guy to push to the next level.

Unfortunately there isn't a litmus test you can give a guy to see if its the right time to push them all the way to the top. When Rock won the title I dont think the fans were expecting it, and at first he didn't seem to fit as World Champ, but eventually he was accepted as a top guy (mostly to do with Foley making him look like a killer). At that time Rock was pushed down our throats, but it worked.

Same thing basically happened with Hunter. When he first got the strap in 99 he looked like a second tier champion (I think that was because Austin didn't bother to put him over), but eventually and again thanks to Foley he got over. And like Rock, Hunter was shoved so far down our throats his nose was wiping our collective asses. But again, like Rock it worked, he drew a ton of money for the company.

One could argue there hasn't really been a champion who got pushed like that since Hunter (well Brock was for a time), and maybe but probably not coincidentally they didn't draw like the previous champions did. I'm of the belief if you want someone new to be the top guy they should become the focal point of the shows, no questions asked. But then you risk the fans turning on that person, and ruining their ability to draw in the future. Like I said though, nobody can know forsure what is the right time to pull the trigger, its a gamble.

But I will agree that it is possible to push a guy too much, thus far I dont think that has happened with Orton, but I could see it happening if he wins the title at Summerslam. However, at the same time, it might be nice to see someone get pushed to the moon besides Hunter.

[Loose Cannon]

CyNick, thank you. This is why you're one of my favorite posters on this board. You are the man. :y: :y: :y: :y: :y: :y:

[BigDaddyCool]

but orton sucks so bad. He has no charisma.

[Kane Knight]

You can say that he wasn't force fed to us, but I think enough people have said that he was that it can be safe to assume the common fan was affected by it.

That being said, amongst my friends, he still has X-Pac heat. Then again, consider a couple of my friends wanted to jkill me for hoping Edge lost...

Still. I didn't invent the notion of Orton being "Shoved down our throats." A ton of people have said that they're pissed with this. It doesn't matter how skilled you are in bed if no-one'll sleep with you, and it doesn't matter how good you're getting on the mic if people think of you in the same sense as Waltman. I've used it as an argument because it has been a common enough sentiment.

[Loose Cannon]

See, I don't see how you can say he has "X-pac heat" though. X-pac got booed because people were sick of him. Orton is getting cheered, even at house shows. I don't know if you watched Raw, but in that interview right before his match with Edge, people popped as soon as they saw him.

If people were sick of Orton, they wouldn't be cheering for him right?

[Kane Knight]

See, I don't see how you can say he has "X-pac heat" though. X-pac got booed because people were sick of him. Orton is getting cheered, even at house shows. I don't know if you watched Raw, but in that interview right before his match with Edge, people popped as soon as they saw him.

If people were sick of Orton, they wouldn't be cheering for him right?
Again, I'm talking past tense.

I don't understand how you can really be stupid enough to think that words like was translate into "currently is."

From what I can tell, you have no salient point which actually contradicts me in any way shape or form, and are only arguing on the grounds that "OMG HE DOESNT UNCONDITIONALLY WORSHIP RANDY CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yes. He's getting cheered NOW. Lucky break, because he was BORING people. People didn't want to see him on TV. Some still don't, though clearly a smaller number.

Now, let me try this a little slower, junior.

Randy.

Orton.

Getting.

Cheered.

Now.

Has.

No.

Effect.

On.

People's

Reactions.

Earlier.

Or.

Whether.

He.

Was.

Shoved.

Down.

Our.

Throats.

Is.

This.

Slow.

Enough.

For.

You.

To.

Absorb.

The.

Point.

Before.

Spouting.

Off.

Some.

Irrelevent.

Shit.

Or.

Worthless.

Argument.

That.

He's.

Popular.

When.

Going.

Up.

Against.

A.

Man.

With.

No.

Personality?

A doorstop would get cheers against edge because he's had no gimmick and no direction.

When he can get massive pops against people who have something more than "I just got back from an injury" pops, or if he can continue to get pops, that'll be one thing.

However, it STILL WON'T CHANGE WHETHER HE WAS SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS IN THE PAST OR WHETHER OR NOT HE GOT X-PAC HEAT.


Pushing him to the moon turned what should be a simple proposition of pushing a naturally charismatic superstar into an uphill struggle against the fans they turned off with oversaturation.

[The Naitch]

I wonder if Randy would've done well if he didn't have Evolution?

[Loose Cannon]

lol. You put "still has" in your last post when referencing X-pac heat. To me, that's the present tense. I don't know though, I could be wrong. But, if you're talking past, then yeah, I totally agree with you that he was shoved down our throats and he might of had X-pac heat in the begginning.

But, that was then and this is now. So, let's talk about the present. People don't bring up the fact that the Rock was shoved down our throats when he was getting booed as a babyface who was the I.C. Champ, do they? It really doesn't matter whether wrestlers get shoved down our throats in the begginning, if it works, then all is good.

Time will only tell if it will work with Orton, but I'm willing to bet that it will.

[The Naitch]

Evolution will pass Orton by.

[The CyNick]

I've never really understood how to decifer "X-Pac heat" from good heat. I mean the only thing I can think of is to look at his TV numbers, and I dont recall ever reading that people were turning off the TV in droves when he came on. Still though, some people may have felt that, but I wans't one of them.

And I wouldn't use responses on this board as a way to judge what the common fan thinks. We are hardly "common fans", I dont think common fans would get into discussions about every minute detail about wrestling like we do. Now if you hear from some casual friends thats a different story, but like I said this board is not a representation of the regualr joe out there.