"I am simply the very best sports entertainer in the world today"

[The Answer]

When Shawn Micheals made this claim was it valid in your eyes?. Shawn is a remarkable athlete and is a big gamer in big time matches. If there ever has been anyone that outperformed Shawn Micheals in a one on one title match? I have yet to see it.....

[Loose Cannon]

Does nobody remember Survivor Series 92 around here?

Bret beat Shawn in the middle on the ring.

[Loose Cannon]

http://www.wrestlingzone.ru/ppv/images/ss92_hbk.jpg

yea, he tapped :yes:

[The Answer]

Does nobody remember Survivor Series 92 around here?

Bret beat Shawn in the middle on the ring.

That wasn't one on one though....

[Loose Cannon]

yea it was.

HBK (IC Champ) vs Bret (World Champ) Look it up and go ahead an watch the match if you have to.

[Zen v.W.o.]

True fact: Bret has a winning record over every major wrestling "star" past and present.

[The Answer]

True fact: Bret has a winning record over every major wrestling "star" past and present.

Well I'll give that match to Loose Cannon but it is still

HBK 2- Bret Hart 1

http:///www.silvercreek.wclark.k12.in.us/StudentWork/StudentPages/EBooher/sweet%20chin%20music.gif

Bret images wouldn't work and since Vince screwed Bret. Meh....

[Zen v.W.o.]

Not so quickly my friend.

Bret has defeated Shawn in tag matches, a survivor series elimination match, a cage match and the first ever ladder match. All clean mind you. I renounce HBK's victories over Bret considering something dumb always went down.;)
Therefore, the record is in the Hitman's favour.:y:

[Kane Knight]

I think he probably is. He's not the greatest wrestler, but he IS surely a showstopper. If he's not the best on the mic (And I can't name many I'd put before him), he's damn close. Combined, he may very well be the greatest today.

Though Eddie and Kurt might take the top spot too.

[Ruien]

True fact: Bret has a winning record over every major wrestling "star" past and present.

He has a winning record over everyone he faced I think you mean. Because most the present stars he has not faced, because he isn't wrestling now a days.

[Kane Knight]

Not so quickly my friend.

Bret has defeated Shawn in tag matches, a survivor series elimination match, a cage match and the first ever ladder match. All clean mind you. I renounce HBK's victories over Bret considering something dumb always went down.;)
Therefore, the record is in the Hitman's favour.:y:

All that, and he's still McMahon's bitch.

[Zen v.W.o.]

He has a winning record over everyone he faced I think you mean. Because most the present stars he has not faced, because he isn't wrestling now a days.

Yes, correct.

Also I can admit HBK was perhaps the best sports-entertainer in the world at one time. For me that was in 1996, when he had his most productive year.

[Zen v.W.o.]

All that, and he's still McMahon's bitch.

Nah, he punked Vince too. Broke that fuckers jaw. Now he gets back what he wants cuz Vince knows Bret is Money baby. Bret gets to now go out the way he wants.

[The Answer]

He has a winning record over everyone he faced I think you mean. Because most the present stars he has not faced, because he isn't wrestling now a days.

Hate to mention this but Owen Hart may hold a winning record against Bret as I can't remember them meeting after Owen beat him at Wrestlemania. Can anyone confirm this?

[Zen v.W.o.]

Hate to mention this but Owen Hart may hold a winning record against Bret as I can't remember them meeting after Owen beat him at Wrestlemania. Can anyone confirm this?


Bret beat him a bit later at SummerSlam. Cage match.

[Loose Cannon]

Bret beat Owen at Summerslam 94

[The Answer]

Man, you guys have good memories.

[The Answer]

Shawn Micheals was the best sports entertainer in the 90's?

Yes or No?

[MVP]

Fuck no

Although it's always entertaining to see him get his ass kicked.

[The Answer]

Fuck no

Although it's always entertaining to see him get his ass kicked.

Who was better in your opinion?

[Loose Cannon]

Personally, and I'm looking at this as being 10-15 years old, I never watched the WWF for Shawn back then. That's the god honest truth. I will say I loved watching the Rockers, I loved his feud with Jannetty, but after that, I really never liked watching him anymore after that. His heel run I found a little entertianing, but his babyface run was just a total turn off for me. People rate that Mania 10 Ladder match so high, but back then, the highlight of the night was seeing Bret win the Title from Yoko.

Bret's great feuds with Owen, Backlund, Lawler, Yoko, Perfect, Mountie, Austin and all of his matches that he had with guys like Hakushi, 123 Kid, Pierre L, Doink entertianed the shit out of me. Bret was fighting everyone for the World Title when he first had it and I thought that was just quality. His feuds all had great stories and emotion attached to them, which I thought Shawn's lacked.

I thought Shawn had some excellent matches and all, but something was missing with everything else. His promos, his storylines, his character, his constant leaving and coming back.

When he got to DX Shawn, he was much better though. He had great matches and he was a great entertainer with his character. He really got under your skin here.

But 94-97 HBK was just not my cup of tea at the time at all.

[MVP]

Who was better in your opinion?

Hogan, Austin, Rock, Bret, Sting

[Hired Hitman]

http://www.wrestlingzone.ru/ppv/images/ss92_hbk.jpg

yea, he tapped :yes: Remember Survivor Series 1997... I better not, I'd get more heat than when Daivari talks in Persian. :(

[Ben Rodrigues]

True fact: Bret has a winning record over every major wrestling "star" past and present.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bret Hart has never defeated Hulk Hogan. Came close in to happening in 93, but never materialized.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bret Hart has never defeated Hulk Hogan. Came close in to happening in 93, but never materialized.

Didn't he beat him though at a Nitro? I know they were involved in a match. Maybe it didnt end in a winner.

[Nervous Ferret]

Remember Survivor Series 1997... I better not, I'd get more heat than when Daivari talks in Persian. :(FARSI :rant: :kiss:

[RP]

Here are my thoughts on HBK...


First of all. He tell's one hell of a story when he wrestles. His emotion on his face. He sells like no other and the best part is, it doesnt matter if its WrestleMania or Saturday Night Main Event. Two of my favorite matches in his career were Wrestle Mania 8 , and his match vs Bulldog on Saturday Night Main Event when he won the IC title. He's the guy , that in baseball terms when people would say " You got 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th , game 7 of the World Series and you need a home run to win the game, who do you got? " In wrestling. You got HBK. His heel turn on Marty jeanette was the greatest heel turn ever imo. Even today as he gets older , after the major injuries, he still puts on 5 star matches. His match with Angle, Benjamin, Jericho at wrestlemania. Best sports entertainer in the world today? After that Hogan bit on Raw and knowing what i know about his capabilities in the ring today, which are still excellent. Yah he is the best today.

Best ever? No . The Rock is the best sports entertainer ever. I'm not even a Rock fan anymore, but no one can compare to the Rock in his very prime.

[Joey Slugs]

i have only really seen one man out perform shawn in a one on one match: bret in the iron man match, and even then it was very fucking close

[Hired Hitman]

FARSI :rant: :kiss:
"The modern Iranian language, dating from about the ninth century <small>A.D.</small>, that is the national language of Iran and is written in an Arabic alphabet; Persian."

Ahh, you see, I was close. :cool:

[McLegend]

Fuck yes

[RemyRed]

Yes, Shawn Michaels is the best today.

[Someone1001]

Michaels isn't the best today. He may be a decent in ring wrestler...but he's almost a complete bore on the mic. Unless he's working a parody. As far as a 'sports entertainer' goes...it isn't about the wrestling abilities. The best 'sports entertainer' in the world today would have to be...someone with a lot more charisma. Like Jericho. Or Kurt Angle. People who go out there on the mic and on a consistent basis are entertaining to watch.

[roach21]

I think Shawn could arguably be one of the best to ever step into a ring, and he's still one of the WWE's top superstars, but he's days as number one have come and gone.

[SuperSlim]

I would still rank him way up there

[Nowhere Man]

Michaels was never the single greatest at anything at any time. True, he was a fantastic performer, and has had more than his fair share of classic matches. However, he's never been able to bring in the fans, which is what a true great should be able to do with ease, and his reputation inside the ring has long been eclipsed by his reputation outside of it.

Think about it. Fans don't boo Steve Austin despite him walking out on the company in '02. They don't boo Hogan, whose stories of backstage pull make Triple H look like Chris Jericho in terms of backstage professionalism. Yet Michaels still can't go to certain places without chants of "You Screwed Bret" echoing throughout the arena. True, this can be attributed more to Bret Hart's endearment than any real shortcoming of HBK, but as listed above, the real greats (and I can't believe I'm listing Hogan as one) have always been able to overcome their negative stigma.

Not to mention that HBK was never a good draw.

[Pepsi Man]

Didn't he beat him though at a Nitro? I know they were involved in a match. Maybe it didnt end in a winner.
That ended up being a swerve where they both beat up I believe Sting.

As far as having a winning record over ALL stars past and present, I don't recall Bret ever locking horns with John Cena, Randy Orton, or Batista. I'm not sure if he's wrestled Eddie Guerrero either.

[SuperSlim]

I'm downloadin that Bret/Hogan match from NItro right now. I'll tell ya what happens at the end.

[wwe2222]

Nobody was a great draw during shawns best runs...it was the mid 90s...it was a down period...Your going to tell me that people didnt tune in to watch DX in the late 90s?

If you are going to go on sheer popularity, then no, austin, hogan, and rock were better. If you are going to go on the overall package, then I would be inclined to say yes.

[SuperSlim]

Aight so after Bret pulls some injury stunt Sting comes out in red while Bret is being carted off.

NwO black and white beat up the red and black NwO in the back

Bret comes back out and while Sting has Hogan in the Scorpion Dethlock Bret comes in and DDTs him. Then him and Hogan beat him up. Bret puts him int eh sharpshooter and stuff. Konnan comes out and walks around the ring.And Luger pulls Sting out.

And that is the conclusion of the whole Bret/Hogan match from Nitro

[Kane Knight]

Nah, he punked Vince too. Broke that fuckers jaw. Now he gets back what he wants cuz Vince knows Bret is Money baby. Bret gets to now go out the way he wants.


:lol:

Yeah, Vince gets socked, Bret has a stroke and cannot wrestle, and will now be brought back not doing what he WANTS to do, but as a relic of a bygone age. Meanwhile, Michaels is still tearing it up, and even Hulk Hogan's capable of getting in the ring.

Bret sure sounds like a winner here.

[PureHatred]

Nowhere Man said it best. HBK was never the single greatest at anything at anytime. In his true prime, he played second fiddle to Bret. And after that, he was second to Austin and The Rock and hell, even Trips had a run where he was THE biggest name in wrestling ( in a god way, I mean, circa 1999-2000).

So, based on talent, HBK is one of if not the best ever. But popularity is a huge part of the business. So its hard to make that claim if you're HBK because, basically, you're a little ignored.

BTW, unless the WWE gives him a major push and lets him dominate the main event scene for a few years, prepare to have the same discussion about Kurt Angle in a few years.

[Stickman]

Call me crazy, but I think HBK is the best in the ring right now. Seriously, there's nobody else I won't flip the channel on. Everybody on this forum is in love with Beniot, Jericho, Angle and whoever but their matches just don't even belong in the same show as HBK. I garuantee you HBK could have a match with anybody and make it good. I can see a five star with him and Zack Gowen, that's how talented he is.

Sure back in the day he was always overshadowed by other guys, and yes, Bret was better. But man oh man, something was always missing when HBK wasn't around.

[Kane Knight]

I dunno. Eddie managed to have a 2 minute+ promo with no words, and STILL had people glued.

[SuperSlim]

I still wanna see that promo

[Zen v.W.o.]

KK, Bret is living the high life. New wife, lots of money, left the business while still on top, not ruining that cred, like so many old dinos still hanging around today. And why shouldnt HBK still be wrestling, hell he has 2 more years to go before he puts on 5 stars matches like the Hitman was doing with Benoit in wcw at 42 years of age. Cant quit now.

[John la Rock]

Shawn is the best today BAR NONE

[Kane Knight]

Heh. Yeah, because Shawn Michaels really needs to ASPIRE to anything right now.

Like maybe a stroke. :yes:

Poor canadian fanboys.

Bret's living the high life. Yeah, forcibly removed from doing something he loves because of a stroke. That's really the high life. :)

[Zen v.W.o.]

Well it's certainly not a bad one. Now is it?

[SuperSlim]

this match shows why HBK should still be wrestling

http://rapidshare.de/files/2424228/WWE_-_RAW_-_Shawn_Michaels_vs_Shelton_Benjamin.wmv.html

I just rewatched the whole match and was like :D :drool: good.

Benjamin vs. Michaels form Raw. 15 minutes of awesome action

[Kane Knight]

Well it's certainly not a bad one. Now is it?

Depends on what you're looking to live. I sure as fuck wouldn't want to be too crippled to enjoy what I love in life.

But maybe you're right. Maybe Bret's a moneygrubbing whore who doesn't care that he'll die if he ever does what he loves again.

[Zen v.W.o.]

As Bret said, "It's not about the money, it's about the respect". I think he has proven that to be all too true time and time again. He just wants to leave on better terms, cant fault a guy for that. Besides, he isn't gonna do something to put his health in jeapordy.

[KayfabeMan]

Michaels has never been the best at anything, at any point in his career. Except at bullshitting everyone around him, including the fans.

He may be better than 85-90% of the people in the business NOW, but that is due to the fact that the business totally sucks ass at this point. Being one of of the best, or the best, at a time when something is on a downward spiral is not an accomplishment at all. It's like becoming the captain of the Titanic as it's sinking.

Bret Hart on the other hand was a damn fine wrestler and performer, for many years, while there was actual competition going on - and the business was on fire. Shawn is supposedly so 'marketable' that he played second fiddle to everyone his entire career; including Bret, and that is where that jealousy comes in.

Shawn is so "important" that he left DX and was completely forgotten about. The four [or five] went on without him, and reached even more success without him there then they probably would have with him there -- considering he'd still have to be the focal point of everything.

Hart was there all the time, doing what was asked of him and being a team player - no matter what company he worked for. At the same time, Michaels was faking injuries & doing whatever he could to prevent himself from helping anyone but himself, as he did and still does believe that he is SHAWN MICHAELS.

Bret Hart knows the difference between Bret Hart and Bret "The Hitman" Hart. He can draw a line between reality and fiction, something that Michaels apparently can't do. The business is a work, and apparently someone forgot to get that memo to Shawn.

Is Michaels a good performer? Yes. Is he a good wrestler? No. Is he going to be listed as one of the biggest stars [modernly]? Yes. Is he the very best of them? No.

[Savio]

He's up therebut I think eddie is a bit better.

[Savio]

Also if brock came back he'd own them all.

[McLegend]

Bret Hart knows the difference between Bret Hart and Bret "The Hitman" Hart. He can draw a line between reality and fiction, something that Michaels apparently can't do. The business is a work, and apparently someone forgot to get that memo to Shawn.
I love Bret, but he has some trouble drawing a line between reality and fiction probably even more so then HBK. Otherwise Bret would not have been upset over getting screwed at Montreal.

Not saying you are wrong just saying should have used a better example then Bret.

[PureHatred]

Yeah, that comment is going to start a shit storm.

[PureHatred]

Also, you're wrong. I'm on my way out the house, so I just want you to think about it for a few hours and know in your heart that you're wrong on so many levels. I don't have but a minute to get into it.

But if you look at what Hart did for the WWF, the dedication he showed the company, the financial hit he took to stay, the way Shawn was behaving, the personal friendshsips involved, and the moral and contractual obligations that the company still owed Bret, thewn there's no way in hell you can reasonably say that Bret "would not have been upset" if he could separate reality from fiction. What the WWF did was real and it was wrong and no man with any ounce of self-respect would just go "Oh well, its part of the business."

Maybe Bret could've let it go sooner, but no way in hell does him being upset at being shit on by the company he worked so hard for meam anything other that Bret hart was a proud man who believed that people should honor thier word.

-1

[Savio]

Yeah but nothing pisses me off more then "the Hateman" leaving c-fedding

[Kane Knight]

As Bret said, "It's not about the money, it's about the respect". I think he has proven that to be all too true time and time again. He just wants to leave on better terms, cant fault a guy for that. Besides, he isn't gonna do something to put his health in jeapordy.

Yeah, a cripple coming back to McMahon is really respect-worthy.

[Kane Knight]

Also if brock came back he'd own them all.

Please. brock may be good, but he's not THAT good.

[McLegend]

Also, you're wrong. I'm on my way out the house, so I just want you to think about it for a few hours and know in your heart that you're wrong on so many levels. I don't have but a minute to get into it.

But if you look at what Hart did for the WWF, the dedication he showed the company, the financial hit he took to stay, the way Shawn was behaving, the personal friendshsips involved, and the moral and contractual obligations that the company still owed Bret, thewn there's no way in hell you can reasonably say that Bret "would not have been upset" if he could separate reality from fiction. What the WWF did was real and it was wrong and no man with any ounce of self-respect would just go "Oh well, its part of the business."

Maybe Bret could've let it go sooner, but no way in hell does him being upset at being shit on by the company he worked so hard for meam anything other that Bret hart was a proud man who believed that people should honor thier word.

-1


PH, you are right and I don't blame Bret Hart for being mad or upset over it. I should not have limited what I said just to Montreal I should have extended it to his whole career

For example Bret really does live his gimmick about being the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be. You see the stuff he writes and in his interviews he really does believe that, and arguably he is the best ever. If it's true or not isn't the point though it's that deep down he really believes it. That is a better example I think then the Montreal one I gave earlier.

I hope you see where I'm coming from this post.

Not trying to take anything a way from Bret, because I love him and think he is one of the best ever.

[Kane Knight]

I love Bret, but he has some trouble drawing a line between reality and fiction probably even more so then HBK. Otherwise Bret would not have been upset over getting screwed at Montreal.

Not saying you are wrong just saying should have used a better example then Bret.

Well the reality is pretty close to the fiction here.

Look at it this way. This IS (or was) his job. This is a major action that would affect the customers' (fans) outlook on his overall competence (His persona and his ability to draw). This was orchestrated by an unethical boss (Vince) and played out with the help of coworkers (Fellow wrestlers/refs).

Yeah, he'd have to buy into a fantasy to have a problem with this. Why, if this happened to me when I worked at Warner Cable, I would have laughed it off and said "Very Funny, Vince."

[Zen v.W.o.]

Yeah, a cripple coming back to McMahon is really respect-worthy.


OK, well now you're just TRYING to rile my fine self up. I will renrge on any further comment till I have cooled down considerably.

[Kane Knight]

OK, well now you're just TRYING to rile my fine self up. I will renrge on any further comment till I have cooled down considerably.

No, just pointing out how fucking stupid your version of the story is.

[Zen v.W.o.]

KK, any version but your own would be considered that way. You need to open your mind to other views and opinions now and then, my friend.

But it's ok, I will relegate to you the victory in this one sided debate. I am a generous fellow.

[Kane Knight]

KK, any version but your own would be considered that way. You need to open your mind to other views and opinions now and then, my friend.

But it's ok, I will relegate to you the victory in this one sided debate. I am a generous fellow.

I love it. Whenever something doesn't go your way, it's the great conspiracy. It's not that I think YOU'RE stupid, it's that I think EVERYONE is stupid. It's not that I think YOU'RE a fanboy, but that EVERYONE is a fanboy. It's not that I thgink YOUR argument is bunk, just that I think EVERYONE's is if they don't agree with me. Fucking copout crybaby shit. Go play with Jon Kano and CBright.

[Zen v.W.o.]

KK, I'm gonna have to ask that you calm down some. You are getting a little stressed and excited.:D

[Kane Knight]

LOL k.

I'll leave the emotion to you, mister conspiracy.

[Kane Knight]

OK, well now you're just TRYING to rile my fine self up. I will renrge on any further comment till I have cooled down considerably.

^LOL yeah, I'm the emotional one^

"I need to cool down before I can whine more about Bret."

[SuperSlim]

Casual Forum word of the week - emo

[Zen v.W.o.]

^LOL yeah, I'm the emotional one^

"I need to cool down before I can whine more about Bret."

You are taking me too seriously. I'm playing up the perception you have of me as a canadian taking huge offense to anything that may affect Bret in a negative manner.:y:

[KayfabeMan]

I love Bret, but he has some trouble drawing a line between reality and fiction probably even more so then HBK. Otherwise Bret would not have been upset over getting screwed at Montreal

As far as Montreal goes, like you said earlier, you probably used a really bad example there - as I could have used a better example of someone making a seperation of reality and fiction than Hart; but I think he really is reasonable.

Montreal is beyond being a work. When someone promises you something in the ring and then goes against that - that really goes over the kayfabe line bigtime, and gives someone a right to be completely upset.

Just as Vince & Shawn and Hebner promised everything would be on the up and up [and lied about that], Hart could have given his word that he would do a clean match - and then beat the fuck out of Michaels legitimately. We would all be talking about the night Hart knocked the stuffing out of Shawn instead, and Shawn would undoubtedly be bitching about it until today, as Hart complains about the swerve.

Personally, I'd have seen that coming from MILES away - but that is just me. I think it's nice of Bret to put trust into someone you've given your life to for 15+ years [as you would in a marriage], but he should've known it's VKM.


For example Bret really does live his gimmick about being the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be. You see the stuff he writes and in his interviews he really does believe that

With this, if I were a guy who worked for a company for "X" number of years, constantly putting on high quality performances, nearly never missing a date, being a major draw and merchandise mover, and doing everything that they'd asked me to do - AND STAYED LOYAL and turned down money one time after another, and avoided being Captain Politics - I'd call myself that as well.

There is hardly anyone that can say all of that for themselves.

Certainly not Michaels.

[Kane Knight]

You are taking me too seriously. I'm playing up the perception you have of me as a canadian taking huge offense to anything that may affect Bret in a negative manner.:y:

You act as though I care. You're the one complaining, not I.

[Kane Knight]

Casual Forum word of the week - emo

Zenny certainly is...

[Zen v.W.o.]

You obviously do care, look at you go.

Kayfabeman, good post.