View Full Version : This is now the "reminisce over the wrestling of old" HBK delivers more Hart attacks
BobBitchen
11-27-2005, 11:16 PM
HBK delivers more Hart attacks
By TIM BAINES - Ottawa Sun
Old habits die hard. Shawn Michaels really is the Hart break kid.
Michaels has finally fessed up for his role in the infamous 1997 Montreal Survivor Series "screwjob" of Bret Hart.
It was no secret that WWE boss Vince McMahon decided to "screw" Hart out of the WWE championship in that night's main event.
What we didn't know for sure was The Heartbreak Kid's involvement. Michaels, in his new book Heartbreak & Triumph: The Shawn Michaels Story, says he conspired with McMahon, Triple H and Jerry Brisco to make sure Hart lost the championship right before he left WWE to join WCW.
"Bret was leaving, but he was refusing to lose," Michaels says in the book. "For all we knew, he might take our championship belt down to WCW and make a mockery of it and use. We couldn't afford to take the chance. It may not seem like much to an outsider, but in the wrestling world, what we were going to do was the equivalent of a mafia hit.And I was going to be Jack Ruby.
"It may have been Vince's decision to swerve Bret out of the title, but I was going to be the one pulling the trigger."
Michaels admits saying to McMahon. "If we have to do a fast count or get him in a hold and tell someone to ring the bell. I'll do whatever you want me to do."
Michaels says McMahon told him: "Bret's going to be hot. You need to put the heat on me. He's going to be mad at me and he is going to want to hit me. I'm going to let him. I owe Bret that much."
Michaels also says ref Earl Hebner was let in on the dirty secret just before the match.
"I believed in my heart that I did the right thing, but I still felt a little dirty," says Michaels.
"I know this is going to sound offensive coming from me, but Bret was not a great wrestler. He was good, very, very good ... but not great. He wasn't that versatile in the ring. The things he did, he did well, but he didn't do a lot of exciting stuff."
If you can get past the shots at Bret, Michaels' book is a very good read. Sometimes arrogant, but seemingly a straight shooter, Michaels pulls no punches on things like problems with his longtime tag-team partner Marty Jannetty.
But you can bet Michaels' popularity level in Canada will take another dip.
Destor
11-27-2005, 11:24 PM
"I know this is going to sound offensive coming from me, but Bret was not a great wrestler. He was good, very, very good ... but not great. He wasn't that versatile in the ring. The things he did, he did well, but he didn't do a lot of exciting stuff."
Bret was a wrestler's wrestler. I cant really deny that he didn't do the exciting things of a HBK. But he could tell a story like no one else, and was more technically sound than anyone has ever been before him.
Interesting to hear HBKs side of the story. Its what I have been saying for years, for the most part, you mesh Bret's story with this one and you finally have the truth.
i have a shoot interview of shawns from 2000 and he admitted in that interview exactly whats in his book (which i am reading and love)
I thought that Shawn never came out clean until his Confidential segment...
nah his rf video shoot in 2000
The Naitch
11-28-2005, 12:45 AM
lol
The Naitch
11-28-2005, 12:45 AM
A mafia hit on the hitman. Classic
Dorkchop
11-28-2005, 01:06 AM
I freaking hate Tim Baines. His arrticles on wrestling are kind of crap. The only thing saving them are interviews with sweet wrestlers that he probably stole from someone else.
They're not always bad, I just think a lot of views are pretty much the same as a 14 year-old. Like D-X reforming. D-X should never reform.
Hired Hitman
11-28-2005, 02:37 AM
I couldn't have been the only one who figured this is how it went down.
CharismaInjection
11-28-2005, 01:19 PM
I'm not really a fan of Bret Hart, he just seems to love himself too much, I've never seen a wrestler so full of himself like Bret other than Hogan.
Stickman
11-28-2005, 01:41 PM
I'm a huge HUGE Bret Hart fan but Shawn (and Ric Flair) has a point. A lot of Bret's matches were very similar. He was incredible at what he did, but he really didn't add many innovative components to his matches.
Zen v.W.o.
11-28-2005, 03:53 PM
HBK is a bitch.
Bret could wrestle anyone and make them look good, plain as. It didnt matter what style they employed, he was the man.
When HBK can sell a story like the Hitman in the ring, let me know.
Secondly, aerial tactics and high flying acrobatics are weak. Bret stuck with what he knew worked and he worked it well.
I always thought it to be completely stupid to have a guy down, then take the time to go climbing up something like a monkey to possibly land an elbow or something.
Bret is the man.
KingofOldSchool
11-28-2005, 04:29 PM
HBK is a bitch.
Bret could wrestle anyone and make them look good, plain as. It didnt matter what style they employed, he was the man.
When HBK can sell a story like the Hitman in the ring, let me know.
Secondly, aerial tactics and high flying acrobatics are weak. Bret stuck with what he knew worked and he worked it well.
I always thought it to be completely stupid to have a guy down, then take the time to go climbing up something like a monkey to possibly land an elbow or something.
Bret is the man.
What are you going to do? Threaten to jump the railing the next time HBK is in Montreal?
Oh wait...
Corkscrewed
11-28-2005, 04:53 PM
The title is sorta misleading... makes it sound like HBK comes out with major attacks, but he's just giving his opinion. Not really meaning to insult (as it came out anyway; dunno if he really hates Bret still or not).
To me, the article seems like sensationalist news.
Vastardikai
11-28-2005, 04:54 PM
There's also the point that one doesn't necessarily have to be "innovative" to be good in the ring.
I'm tempted to start wrestling as simply the second coming of Kevin Sullivan, (I'm 5'9" and kind of stocky) only with a better finish (The belly stomp works as a move, but not so much as a finish.), maybe the Tongan Death Grip. :shifty:
wwe2222
11-28-2005, 05:01 PM
Secondly, aerial tactics and high flying acrobatics are weak. Bret stuck with what he knew worked and he worked it well.
I always thought it to be completely stupid to have a guy down, then take the time to go climbing up something like a monkey to possibly land an elbow or something.
well bret used to go to the 2nd turnbuckle to drop an elbow in every single match he had...so are you saying that was a stupid move?
Zen v.W.o.
11-28-2005, 05:05 PM
No, plus there was no wasted movement, it was usually during his arsenal of the five moves of doom.
I'm just not that high on lots of huge high flying spots. Hell, I'll even bash Teddy Hart over that much.
Destor
11-28-2005, 05:12 PM
I'm not really a fan of Bret Hart, he just seems to love himself too much, I've never seen a wrestler so full of himself like Bret other than Hogan.
WTF, wrestlers have egos, get over it. You try going out in front of thousands of people night in and night out screaming your name, and see if that doesn't give you an ego.
"I know this is going to sound offensive coming from me, but Bret was not a great wrestler. He was good, very, very good ... but not great. He wasn't that versatile in the ring. The things he did, he did well, but he didn't do a lot of exciting stuff."
And I suppose wasting time to showboat to the crowd every five minutes is considered great wrestling.
I think the crowd reaction for Bret whenever he was in a match rproves enough that he was an exciting person to watch. I don't think Bret Hart is popular just cause he wore pink sunglasses.
I'm a huge HUGE Bret Hart fan but Shawn (and Ric Flair) has a point. A lot of Bret's matches were very similar. He was incredible at what he did, but he really didn't add many innovative components to his matches.
Yeah and Ric Flair put on a wrestling bible in the ring by always getting tossed off the turnbuckle, giving sucker punches, and having absolutely no psychology in the ring.
HeartBreakMan2k
11-28-2005, 05:18 PM
having absolutely no psychology in the ring.
Are you high? [/Shelton]
Ric had an amazing psychology in his matches.
One minute Flair would be working on someone's arm then he'd work the leg, then throw his opponent in the turnbuckle or something.
I'm not trying to put down Flair's wrestling abilities because he's by far one of the best technical wrestlers of all time, but his wrestling matches are even more formulaic than Bret's style.
McLegend
11-28-2005, 05:32 PM
In HBK Physical Prime which I say was the first time he won the World Title to WM14 he really didn't rely on Psychology as much as Bret did, but HBK was still great.
Now though HBK uses Psychology better then anyone since his return which IMO proves he is the best ever. He has changed his style so much and still been has great really says how great HBK is.
Bret is also great, but not as great as HBK.
Destor
11-28-2005, 05:40 PM
Ric Flair's psycology > Bret Hart + HBK
McLegend
11-28-2005, 05:42 PM
Ric Flair's psycology > Bret Hart + HBK
Flair is great, but he really didn't use psychology.
MVP was right about that one
Loose Cannon
11-28-2005, 05:49 PM
well to be fair, there's not just one form of psychology. Working the leg, which lets everyone know you're seting "wrestler x" up for the sharpshooter is one form. Another form is the way you handle your character in the ring. From the way Flair always got down on two knees and pleaded with "wrestler x" not to hit him to to the eye pokes to the strut he did mid match to the way he would get on the crowd. That's all pyschology. It adds to his character development.
McLegend
11-28-2005, 05:56 PM
Still everyone here was talking about in ring wrestling psychology.
Point taken though.
John la Rock
11-28-2005, 06:03 PM
Bret Rules and HBK rules
both are awesome in their own unique way
Destor
11-28-2005, 06:07 PM
Still everyone here was talking about in ring wrestling psychology.
Point taken though.
Not true. I was talking about crowd psycology (which is the most important.)
McLegend
11-28-2005, 06:09 PM
Not true. I was talking about crowd psycology (which is the most important.)
sure you were
redoneja
11-28-2005, 06:12 PM
In HBK Physical Prime which I say was the first time he won the World Title to WM14...
It was Wrestlemania 12. He lost it to SCSA at WM 14.
redoneja
11-28-2005, 06:14 PM
Bret Rules and HBK rules
both are awesome in their own unique way
Exactly, its at the point of personal preference. I happen to prefer Bret over Shawn. But I still recognize how goos HBK was and still is.
Destor
11-28-2005, 06:16 PM
sure you were
Check some of my other post in that barb wire thread, and see if I mention ring psychology. Nope sure didn't, all crowd psychology. Its what is actually important. Ring psychology is only important (I'm generalizing) to real wrestlers (armature) because they are the only ones looking to see if Shawn placed his hand on the inner thigh of his opponent before he did the standing switch. Fans don't even notice crowd psychology if its done right, the just buy into the product.
redoneja
11-28-2005, 06:26 PM
Shawn placed his hand on the inner thigh of his opponent before he did the standing switch.
Oh you dirty little girl....dont stop there....:kiss:
John la Rock
11-28-2005, 06:29 PM
Exactly, its at the point of personal preference. I happen to prefer Bret over Shawn. But I still recognize how goos HBK was and still is.
ya I like Bret more too but Shawn is still the man
Destor
11-28-2005, 06:32 PM
Oh you dirty little girl....dont stop there....:kiss:
:lol: Sick fucker
redoneja
11-28-2005, 06:34 PM
:lol: Sick fucker
Mmmmmm, I think my panties are sticking to me now...:shifty:
StrongMad
11-29-2005, 01:25 AM
Vince: "Execute order... 66."
Kane Knight
11-29-2005, 01:32 AM
Michaels right now reeks of desperation for attention. Seriously.
Nark Order
11-29-2005, 01:34 AM
All you hardcore Bret marks... get over it. Not everybody is going to be as far up his ass as you all are.
Kane Knight
11-29-2005, 01:56 AM
I don't think there's any more room. They had to remove his prostate. :D
Vastardikai
11-29-2005, 02:59 AM
Part of Micheals thing is, when he wants to be, can be the best wrestler of all time. Trouble is, when he doesn't want to be, business has sufferred for his wants. Presently, he should be a heel challenging for the WWE Title. In the past, I'm sure Owen Hart's career NEVER suffered because of Shawn's ego (or Austin's freak neck injury or H's refusal to put him over, but I digress) [/sarcasm]. Example number 2: Shane Douglas. Sure the guy burned more bridges than Jarrett killed crowds, but the Dean Douglas character was catching fire in spite of being a shit gimmick. Micheals wouldn't put him over, though (the "Manhattan Incident," which to this day I STILL doubt ever happened.)
Sting Fan
11-29-2005, 04:19 AM
Let me state to start of I am not a huge Bret Mark, I never really saw enough of his work (I was a WCW junkie) to become a huge fan.
That being said I hate Michaels ring psycology since his return. I have seen pretty much every televised HBK match since his return to face HHH and everytime he kips up and hits that elbow the mark in me dies just a little more because it is fucking fake.
I remember him wrestling a match against HHH I think but I'm not sure I know its happened more than once though and his opponent worked the back all freaking match, suddenly HBK hits his knock down, he kips up and runs to the top, hits an elbow and starts selling again as he gets up.
That pisses me off so bad when I go watch a guy like Benoit who constantly sells everything and yet guys are so far up Michaels ass a great seller and ring psycologist, give me a break.
Surely I'm not the only one this annoys?
Destor
11-29-2005, 04:31 AM
HBK has some of the worst ring psychology in the business. But his crowd psychology is almost flawless. He knows what to do and when to do it to get the desired reaction out of an audience. I appreciate ring psychology, but it isn't as important as working the crowd right. So I can ignore his flaws I suppose.
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 05:25 AM
I pretty much agree with Destor, except Hart > Flair (fuck you, it's true).
Hart and Michaels are both phenonimal wrestlers but each one excels at one kind of psychology, but not so much at the other. Thing is, Bret's technical prowess sucks you in. He won't play to the crowd at all during a match, but you can't turn away if you want to. The way he doesn't waste movement and stays on the guy like a vicious dog draws me in like a moth to a flame.
Destor
11-29-2005, 05:29 AM
I pretty much agree with Destor, except Hart > Flair (fuck you, it's true).
You're Canadian, I understand.
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 05:34 AM
It's not even a Canada thing. The first couple of years I saw Bret wrestling (I was like 9 years old) I didn't even know he was Canadian. He just mesmerized me with his prowess.
Destor
11-29-2005, 05:39 AM
It's not even a Canada thing. The first couple of years I saw Bret wrestling (I was like 9 years old) I didn't even know he was Canadian. He just mesmerized me with his prowess.
You grew up a Hart mark.
I grew a Flair mark (80's style :cool: .)
You can never shake those things.
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 05:43 AM
Oh I watched wrestling in the 80s. Jake The Snake and Macho Man. :cool:
Destor
11-29-2005, 05:47 AM
Ivan Koloff and Arn Anderson :cool:
(not that Roberts and Savage dont own)
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 05:48 AM
I only got WWF in Zimbabwe. :(
No NWA or AWA for me.
Destor
11-29-2005, 05:54 AM
I only got WWF in Zimbabwe. :(
No NWA or AWA for me.
What a shame. (Not that you were in Zimbabwe...er...you know what I mean.) AWA was pure wrestling no bullshit (for the most part.) NWA was mixture of WWF and AWA, with all the best talent. Great matches with great build ups and angles. Truly the top dogs back in the day (in my eyes anyhow.)
How far are we off topic now?
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 05:57 AM
Fuck the topic. This is now the "reminisce over the wrestling of old" thread.
Destor
11-29-2005, 06:03 AM
Better like this anyhow. Change the name Funky. You have the power!
Destor
11-29-2005, 06:03 AM
(change the name of the thread)
:lol:
Destor
11-29-2005, 06:05 AM
Seriously though, Ivan Koloff = da man. If you missed out on his career you need to look into it. He was one of the top three heels of his day. Every title match he had you had a feeling that this dirty Russian might steel this sucker. Top ten all time greatest heels right there and you never hear anything about him.
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 06:13 AM
I 've heard a bit about him, but never seen any of his matches. Damn, I really need to get WWE 24/7.
Destor
11-29-2005, 06:22 AM
The little bit I've seen of 24/7 I'm am in love with. They have so much. NWA, AWA, CWC (WWF before it was WWWF,) WWWF, WWF, WWE, ECW, WCW, Mid-Atlantic, and probably more. Its amazing. Not to mention all the 'Confidential' type pieces they have. What more can a fan want? GLOW? Or maybe WOW?
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 06:28 AM
lol GLOW
Destor
11-29-2005, 07:02 AM
Yeah, GLOW is shit. WOW (Women of Wrestling, if you didn't know) is just a cheap GLOW rip off. I'd take it over CZW though. [/obvious joke]
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 07:04 AM
Yeah, I remember those 80s women's feds. Oh man, they couldn't wrestle for shit.
I really hope the WWE starts importing Japanese female wrestlers like they were in the early 90s.
RemyRed
11-29-2005, 07:10 AM
The Heart Break Kid > The Hitman
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 07:13 AM
No.
Destor
11-29-2005, 07:17 AM
LOL, I just realized the whole time I was talking about Ivan Koloff. I was thinking of Nikita Koloff. My bad, too long ago I suppose.
Any way I love Japanese women wrestling (even the hardcore when done right,) they get it done just as well the guys. Meguymi Kudo (I'm not spelling that right) would have death matches and tell these amazing emotional stories in the 90's. Too bad she never made it to the states. Best female wrestler I've ever seen.
American women wrestling was getting quite well from about 2001-2004ish and then it just went to shit about the same time they started that damn Diva Search shit. Plenty to bitch about the past few years though.
Part of Micheals thing is, when he wants to be, can be the best wrestler of all time. Trouble is, when he doesn't want to be, business has sufferred for his wants. Presently, he should be a heel challenging for the WWE Title. In the past, I'm sure Owen Hart's career NEVER suffered because of Shawn's ego (or Austin's freak neck injury or H's refusal to put him over, but I digress) [/sarcasm]. Example number 2: Shane Douglas. Sure the guy burned more bridges than Jarrett killed crowds, but the Dean Douglas character was catching fire in spite of being a shit gimmick. Micheals wouldn't put him over, though (the "Manhattan Incident," which to this day I STILL doubt ever happened.)
read HBK's book....he never refused to job to Shane and he even told Vince he would but Vince said hell no we're gonna bury him...as far as the Manhattan Incident it happened in Syracuse and it is true in the book Shawn tells about how Bulldog and Waltman never even tried to help him when he left the bar that night and 6 guys jumped him.Shawn was dumped at Candido & Tammy's hotel room and they called 911 and Tammy actually stayed with Shawn that night to make sure he was alright
seriosuly everyone needs to get this book he sets the record straight on alot of things and alot of people
Funky Fly
11-29-2005, 04:26 PM
lol I was kidding about hijacking the thread.
HBK has some of the worst ring psychology in the business. But his crowd psychology is almost flawless. He knows what to do and when to do it to get the desired reaction out of an audience. I appreciate ring psychology, but it isn't as important as working the crowd right. So I can ignore his flaws I suppose.
Flawless crowd psychology my ass.
I remember a guy who was challenging Diesel to a WWE title match at Wrestlemania 11 who was supposed to be a heel, but he worked the crowd over to get pops and make Diesel look like nothing.
Destor
11-29-2005, 06:44 PM
Flawless crowd psychology my ass.
I remember a guy who was challenging Diesel to a WWE title match at Wrestlemania 11 who was supposed to be a heel, but he worked the crowd over to get pops and make Diesel look like nothing.
That only proves my point. The guy is heel but he knows how to work a crowd so well that he can still make them cheer him. Has 'em in the palm of his hand. May not have been professional but that doesn't have anything to do with psychology. Its all about getting the reaction you are looking for.
Too bad when he was face he couldn't do anything about the "faggot" chants.
Fignuts
11-30-2005, 05:04 PM
I guess HBK doesn't think springboard planchas to to the outside are very exciting. Or excellent storytelling, for that matter.
The MAC
12-01-2005, 03:37 AM
Shawn Michaels is shit-scared of Bret Hart.
Even with Bret's stroke I'm sure Bret will fuck shawn up.
I'd buy that for a dollar!
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