Screw Technical Wrestling

[Optimistic T]

There, I said it. Screw it. Screw Ring of Honor and this European style that I hear is all the rage. I could care less about watching guys flip and flop through fifty chained holds. It's boring as hell.

Give me larger than life characters like Hogan, Taker and Batista.

Give me promos from the best like Nash, HHH, Flair and Edge.

Give me great characters like Mr. McMahon, Raw GM Bischoff and Hassan.

Give me guys with gimmicks like Viscera and 'Pirate' Paul Burchill.

Give me some comedy characters like Boogeyman and Coach.

Give me guys with cool finishers like Brock, Big Show and HBK.

Give me a few spot monkeys like MNM, Kendrick & London, the Mexicools and RVD. Even if I do have to hear 'smarks' complain about how they deserve pushes and should be allowed to use more moves. Screw that. I like knowing when Benjamin is gonna go for his dragon whip kick or that HBK is gonna try for the elbow drop.

Hell, give me a few good wrestlers like Angle, HHH and Benoit who can cut it with the competition in promos, looks or intensity.

But SCREW these idiots saying so and so from Ring of Honor or Japan should come to WWE because they put on 90 minute classics. 90 minutes classics are boring. Newsflash... Hart/HBK's Iron Man was boring. Almost all matches over twenty minutes are.

It's fake. Pro-Wrestling is about creativity, whether it be good or bad. It's not about purists who drone on about Vince McMahon or David Arquette as a world champion ruining a title's legacy. It's about entertainment. It's not collegiate wrestling, for pete's sake. Even UFC knows that much and 'books' accordingly.

Seriously, I don't know about you guys but I love when a gimmick like Spirit Squad comes around and people complain about talented workers being held down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some of these idiots were the same ones that said Jeff Hardy would be the next Shawn Michaels. Jeff Hardy sounds like marbles are falling out of his mouth when he talks. Still, he deserves TV time because he can crash threw a table with style and is marketable, unlike Greg Valentine who might've been technically superb but was nothing more than a jobber to the stars when it came to the big time.

Oh, and I also love it when a character gets on TV that 'smarks' deem talentless like a Gene Snitsky. Newsflash, these guys were trained. They know how to wrestle. Most of them know more than they ever use. There's no money in reversing a headlock into a hammerlock into a reversal. Hell, look at Flair. Most matches he works on the knee for like two or three moves these days.

I guarantee at least once in his life, a guy like Dusty Rhodes or Hogan or Snitsky or Viscera has sat down at his computer and checked out how David Meltzer or Scott Keith rated his latest PPV match a quarter star or a dud and laughed as they counted their money.

'Smarks' need to understand they're not the majority and their opinion doesn't really matter. Technical wrestling isn't the majority. 'Championship Credibility' isn't about who can go hold for hold. Ask NWA how much Dan Severn made as their World Champion for however long he held the title before TNA came along. Hell, ask Jeff Jarrett why practically every end to one of his PPV is overbooked with interference and guitars. It isn't about confusing people into thinking they were classics. It's about getting the fans interested in a rollercoaster ride at the end of the match. Will the bad guy win? Will the bad guy get trumped?

Go ask your average 'technical' flavor of the month in Ring of Honor or wherever how much money he's making. Check out what car he climbs into. Ask him if he owns his own house. Ask him what his 9-5 job is. Ask his girlfriend or wife or whoever if they work to pay rent too. Ask whoever runs Ring of Honor these days when they plan to sellout MSG or get a national TV deal. Watch 'em pause and stutter and laugh in their faces for Good Ol' OT.

That's it. That's all I gotta say. :wave:

[samichna]

So you are saying that if you aren't part of "the majority", then your opinion doesn't matter.

That's all I gotta say. :wave:

[D Mac]

I like a good technical match now and then, but yeah, I'd rather have the "entertainment" value more nowadays.

[Me]

I agree Mr.T. I love technical, but there is more to wrestling than just technical and the European styles. Larger than life charector are what sell, always have (compare Hogan to Bret Hart.) But that doesn't stop Me from absolutely loving a good Broadway (man do I miss GOOD Broadways.) Technical wrestling is the goods, but so is the American style, Memphis style, or a plethora of other entertainment stlyes. No one is better than the other, it's completely subjective.

[Optimistic T]

So you are saying that if you aren't part of "the majority", then your opinion doesn't matter.

That's all I gotta say. :wave:

I don't consider myself a 'smark' in the sense of the term it's used at amongst the IWC. Do I check the 'news' sites once or twice a day? Yeah, sure. Do I read columns on guys bitching and moaning about how Stephanie McMahon doesn't know how to book Jamie Noble? I don't try to. Occassionally I'll check out a new columnist since there are a few guys I enjoy reading (namely, Hyatte). Do I care about the retarded jibberish or fantasy booking columns I glance over captions and links for? No. These guys would sink a company with national TV like WWE or TNA in a matter of months. Oh and no, my opinion doesn't matter. It is, however, a cold hard fact.

[Destor]

I agree Mr.T. I love technical, but there is more to wrestling than just technical and the European styles. Larger than life charector are what sell, always have (compare Hogan to Bret Hart.) But that doesn't stop Me from absolutely loving a good Broadway (man do I miss GOOD Broadways.) Technical wrestling is the goods, but so is the American style, Memphis style, or a plethora of other entertainment stlyes. No one is better than the other, it's completely subjective.What he said.

[Jordan]

Eh... not really man. I have watched wrestling all my life, and im not a kid anymore. I don't want to watch something that makes me feel stupid. Ring of Honor makes me feel like im watching something astonishing, WWE makes me feel like im watching something stupid. Batista can not entertain as well as Samoa Joe, AJ Styles puts on far better matches than Shelton Benjamin, American Dragon is going after something real to him, holding onto the ROH World Title, Randy Orton wants to humilate Rey Mysterio's best friends death... Im not stupid, I don't like stupid wrestling.

[Blitz]

k.

I'd still rather watch Joe/Kobashi than Boogeyman/JBL.

[D Mac]

Randy Orton wants to humilate Rey Mysterio's best friends death... .

Don't think it was Randy's choice to do that shit. He has to do what Vince and the writers tell him to do.

[D Mac]

What he said.

It's about damn time you came back. :mad:

[Destor]

I never left. :shifty:

[Blitz]

On an unrelated note, where'd that Me punk go?

[Fox]

Go ask your average 'technical' flavor of the month in Ring of Honor or wherever how much money he's making. Check out what car he climbs into. Ask him if he owns his own house. Ask him what his 9-5 job is. Ask his girlfriend or wife or whoever if they work to pay rent too. Ask whoever runs Ring of Honor these days when they plan to sellout MSG or get a national TV deal. Watch 'em pause and stutter and laugh in their faces for Good Ol' OT.

That's it. That's all I gotta say. :wave:

So, that's what you love about professional wrestling? Having your favorite stars make big money for shitty matches and laugh at us for filling up their paychecks?

Because what I love about professional wrestling is passion; guys who go out there and give it their all every night, without being dulled down by bullshit politics and taking great lengths to make matches "slower."

Fuck Triple H, Batista, and Hulk Hogan. So what if they draw money? They've got the power train known as the WWE behind them, and a million 15 years and younger fans (or at least with the same mentality of) who buy into their idiotic storylines. But there's nothing real or passionate about it.

Watch AJ Styles vs. Christopher Daniels' first Iron Man Match. It's a classic and you can tell that both men are out there in that ring giving every fucking ounce of strength they've got. And why? Not for the money. Not to please the boss. They go out there and put on kick ass performances every fucking night for fans like me who appreciate their effort to give me my money's worth.

I haven't ordered a WWE PPV in months, because with shitty PPV after shitty PPV, I absolutely refused to give them another dollar of my money. And their shows are headlined by "larger than life" superstars like Batista, John Cena, Triple H, Undertaker and Big Show - and they go out there and put on dead matches that look like they're scripted punch-for-punch. There's nothing passionate about them, and they're making thousands of dollars for wrestling in front of millions of hungry fans.

Then you've got guys like Jack Evans, Homicide, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Christopher Daniels, Austin Aries, Alex Shelley, and so many others who perform in front of one-hundredth of the fans that the WWE's superstars are in front of, and they put their bodies on the line every night in five star matches that send us home happy.

The fact of the matter is that as Society changes, so does Wrestling. People aren't interested in slower styles and big hulking monsters punching each other into oblivion anymore. This isn't the fucking 80's. This is the year 2006. And in 2006, the new breed of professional wrestling is going to emerge, and it's going to either A) leave the WWE in it's dust, or B) force the WWE to change its style to today's standards.

John Cena vs. JBL doesn't even compare to Christopher Daniels vs. AJ Styles. And it never will.

[redoneja]

So, that's what you love about professional wrestling? Having your favorite stars make big money for shitty matches and laugh at us for filling up their paychecks?

Because what I love about professional wrestling is passion; guys who go out there and give it their all every night, without being dulled down by bullshit politics and taking great lengths to make matches "slower."

Fuck Triple H, Batista, and Hulk Hogan. So what if they draw money? They've got the power train known as the WWE behind them, and a million 15 years and younger fans (or at least with the same mentality of) who buy into their idiotic storylines. But there's nothing real or passionate about it.

Watch AJ Styles vs. Christopher Daniels' first Iron Man Match. It's a classic and you can tell that both men are out there in that ring giving every fucking ounce of strength they've got. And why? Not for the money. Not to please the boss. They go out there and put on kick ass performances every fucking night for fans like me who appreciate their effort to give me my money's worth.

I haven't ordered a WWE PPV in months, because with shitty PPV after shitty PPV, I absolutely refused to give them another dollar of my money. And their shows are headlined by "larger than life" superstars like Batista, John Cena, Triple H, Undertaker and Big Show - and they go out there and put on dead matches that look like they're scripted punch-for-punch. There's nothing passionate about them, and they're making thousands of dollars for wrestling in front of millions of hungry fans.

Then you've got guys like Jack Evans, Homicide, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Christopher Daniels, Austin Aries, Alex Shelley, and so many others who perform in front of one-hundredth of the fans that the WWE's superstars are in front of, and they put their bodies on the line every night in five star matches that send us home happy.

The fact of the matter is that as Society changes, so does Wrestling. People aren't interested in slower styles and big hulking monsters punching each other into oblivion anymore. This isn't the fucking 80's. This is the year 2006. And in 2006, the new breed of professional wrestling is going to emerge, and it's going to either A) leave the WWE in it's dust, or B) force the WWE to change its style to today's standards.

John Cena vs. JBL doesn't even compare to Christopher Daniels vs. AJ Styles. And it never will.

1) I love you(for alot of what you said)

2)AJ Styles needs a good opponet to make him look good, and to a much greater extent than Joe

3). Daniels/Styles doesn't even compare to Flair/Steamboat. And it never will.

[McLegend]

2)AJ Styles needs a good opponet to make him look good, and to a much greater extent than Joe

Everyone needs a good opponent to look good.

[Destor]

Everyone needs a good opponent to look good.Not true. Some people (and you may have heard this term before) CARRY people to good matches.

[Pepsi Man]

So wait, screw technical wrestling, but give you Benoit and Angle? This seems to be more anti ROH/pro WWE than it is anti technical or anything, and that's coming from me, someone who finds ROH to be hugely overrated by a lot of the "smarks" myself.

[McLegend]

Not true. So people (and you may have heard this term before) CARRY people to good matches.
Yeah but just becuase you can't carry people that makes you a bad wrestler? I wouldn't call Angle bad and he can't carry people to good matches.

Also not every great wrestler who carry people isn't going to be able to carry everyone. So they still need a good enough opponent that they can make look better.

[Shadow]

...I'm confused.

[Destor]

Yeah but just becuase you can't carry people that makes you a bad wrestler? I wouldn't call Angle bad and he can't carry people to good matches.I didn't say that the inability to carry makes you bad. I said you don't have to have a good opponent to look good. I've seen Ric Flair carry some talentless mother fuckers memorable matches, and he made them look like a million bucks.

[McLegend]

I didn't say that the inability to carry makes you bad. I said you don't have to have a good opponent to look good. I've seen Ric Flair carry some talentless mother fuckers memorable matches, and he made them look like a million bucks.
I have also seen Ric Flair carry people to not so good matches with shit wrestlers. So you still have to be good or semi-good to be carried.

[Destor]

Also not every great wrestler who carry people isn't going to be able to carry everyone. So they still need a good enough opponent that they can make look better.Again, you implying that I said that. you said:

Everyone needs a good opponent to look good.
I said that simply isn't true. I've seen some talentless people get put over huge because one guy was gettin' it done. You don't have a good opponent to look good, trust, been there done that.

[Destor]

I have also seen Ric Flair carry people to not so good matches with shit wrestlers. So you still have to be good or semi-good to be carried.If you were good you wouldn't need to be carried.

[McLegend]

Also though everyone says AJ always has to be carried in all of his matches. I don't really see that I mean obviously he has to be helped cause his areobatic style does depend the other person bumping for him. Still though AJ still is fast and hits all his moves with instenstity and his no slacker in the ring.

For Example though everyone says Daniels carries AJ in all their matches maybe he did when they first started wrestling each other years ago, but now I think it's both of them working together to have a good match.

As for Joe though his test is gonna come later when he gets moved up to the heavyweights to see how good he really is.

[Londoner]

Legend-Kurt Angle can't carry people to good matches?hahahaha, that's got to be a joke,right? If you truly believe that, then i've no respect for your opinion.

[McLegend]

If you were good you wouldn't need to be carried.
Not if you are inexperienced or wrestling another style that you are not use to.

Also you said

I've seen Ric Flair carry some talentless mother fuckers memorable matches, and he made them look like a million bucks.

See though in a good amount of matches Ric Flair hasn't made his talentless opponents look good(don't take that as a diss on Flair just trying to bring up a point). Thats mostly not Flair's fault becuase his opponent possible really sucked or is was big time styles Clash.

Basiclly though what I'm saying is a lot of people just rag on wrestlers just because they look good against certain opponents, and not so good against other ones. I just don't think that's totally fair to rag on a wrestler just because he can't have a good match with certain people.

So in other words it took me two sentences to say what I have been trying to say in like 5 or 6 posts.

[McLegend]

Legend-Kurt Angle can't carry people to good matches?hahahaha, that's got to be a joke,right? If you truly believe that, then i've no respect for your opinion.
What about Cena?

Cena looked worse then ever against Angle, but when Cena wrestled Edge he looked pretty good. Also Cena looked better against Jericho then he did with Angle.

When Henry wrestled Mysterio and Undertaker Mark Henery looked better then ever, but when he wrestled Angle not so good.


I'm not saying Angle isn't great, and I'm just saying he doesn't carry people. Also if you think about it Angle hasn't really had to carry that many people in his entire career lot of times he goes up against someone who is good.

Also not in any way I'm I saying Angle gets carried cause I don't think he does. I'm just saying that the old saying If Wrestler X can't have a good match with Wrestler Y then he is never going to have good match doesn't apply with Angle.

[Dave Youell]

There's more to life than Technical

There's more to life than Spotfests

There's more to life than Over the top entertainment

There's more to life than Strong style

There's more to life than High Flying

There's more to life than Hardcore

So, basically. There's more than one style used on a show. Oh my god, bookers are trying to cater to more than one fan! how dare they!

[The One]

I didn't say that the inability to carry makes you bad. I said you don't have to have a good opponent to look good. I've seen Ric Flair carry some talentless mother fuckers memorable matches, and he made them look like a million bucks.

Ric Flair made an entire fucking career out of taking no name people and bringing them to the big stage. That's why Ric Flair is the greatest ever. He isn't even the highlight in most of his matches, but his matches make stars out of people who could never be where they are without Ric FUCKING Flair.

[/Flair Mark]

[Destor]

:love: Mutual Flair love.

[The One]

:love: Mutual Flair love.

If I havn't said this before, let me say it now, I officially love Destor.:yes:

[Destor]

:kiss:

[Dave Youell]

*prepares to get flammed*

I still say Steamboat > Flair

*heads for the hills*

[Destor]

Meh, Steamboat couldn't get over as heel to save his life. Thus Flair is > Steamboat. Steamboat is the goods though.

[Dave Youell]

Meh, Steamboat couldn't get over as heel to save his life. Thus Flair is > Steamboat. Steamboat is the goods though.
Steamboat was the essence of a face though, i mean look at him. He's one of the worlds most attractive men ever! How could you boo that? Really, how?

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Hart/HBK's Iron Man was boring.
That's pretty much where the post loses credibility, I agree, some long matches are extremely better, and sometimes a 5 minute match would be better than 20, but the HBK-Bret Iron Man is a true classic that was awesome from start to finish.

With the other points, I agree, a good wrestling show has variety, like Mick Foley's "3 ring circus" theory. If you don't like the acrobats, you can watch 20 clowns come out of a car.

Raw was hot in the late 90s because you had a good mix of tag wrestling, a few cruiserweights here and there like Taka Michinoku or Essa Rios,, a great hardcore division, gimmicks such as Val Venis, Goldust and the Godfather, then in the 2000s guys like Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho were stealing the show.

[Dave Youell]

I think the Iron Man is really overatted myself also.

Don't get me wrong the match itself is decent, but it doesn't make my top 10, or 20 for that matter. They all that stuff in an hour that could easily be done in 30 mins and still of gotten the same drama out of it. But i've never been as huge a Bret fan as some on these boards are.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Meh, different opinions, I tend to get bored of long matches, especially now, but when I got the HBK DVD I watched the whole match glued to the screen.

[The One]

Hell no boy, you better head for some fucking moutains. Ricky Steamboat wipes the floor with Flair as far as athletisism (sp?) goes...but other then that Ricky owes everything he has to Flair. Hell he got traded to Jim Crockett for One Man Gang. Before Flair got to him, he wasn't shit. He was a good athlet who got involved with wrestling. Ric Flair could go up to any wrestler, now or then, and make them a star. Steamboat (granted) has a few good matches to be proud of, but without Flair going out of his way to bring Steamboat up, he wouldn't be jack shit. I relate Steamboat to Shelton Benjamin. He has all the skills in the world, great look, and is marketable...but until someone can come along and make something out of his, he isn't shit. Ric Flair walked into anywhere he went and made himself "The Man". He made American Style Wrestling popular before there was a name for it. It is because of Ric Flair (and to a lesser extent Superstar Billy) that we have the type of wrestling we have right now. Now don't get me wrong, I think the world of The Dragon...hell anyone who has had his career and his match resume to back it up deserves respect...but he isn't a drop in the bucket of greatness that is Flair. Both him and Sting owe their entire careers to Flair for taking them to a level they could have never reached on their own.

That is what most people forget about Flair. Yeah he is the 18 time (not 16 time, look it up) World Champion, but more then that, he gave us an entire slew of credible wrestlers. He is the only MEGA Main Eventer (other then The Rock) to make his opponite look better then him, and STILL come out stronger for it. Flair was always "The Man" to beat. Like I said eailer in the thread, Flair usually wasn't even the highlight of the match...but he made Main Eventers, he made Legends, he made Icons...and he did it all by making guys look better then they ever could on their own.

Now point me in the direction of some hills, cause I got a friends ass to woop.

[Dave Youell]

Meh, different opinions, I tend to get bored of long matches, especially now, but when I got the HBK DVD I watched the whole match glued to the screen.
Granted, I just felt it was overkill. No ones fault as that's the way those Iron Man matches are designed.

Maybe if it had more falls, i guess I have problems getting into the reality of that one, as we've all seen both guys get beat in less time with less offence.

I enjoyed the Rock/HHH or Angle/Brock one more, mainly because there were some falls and it gave the whole match more drama.

Personally I think anything over the 40 minute mark is too much time. Taker and Angle had what I beleive to be one of the best WWE matches since Benoit beat HHH at Mania XX, the drama was there and that was something that's been missing from wrestling for a while.

The HBK/Bret match had that drama, but I felt it was waaaay too overdone because of the time constraints which is why I lost interest in it.

[Dave Youell]

Hell no boy, you better head for some fucking moutains. Ricky Steamboat wipes the floor with Flair as far as athletisism (sp?) goes...but other then that Ricky owes everything he has to Flair. Hell he got traded to Jim Crockett for One Man Gang. Before Flair got to him, he wasn't shit. He was a good athlet who got involved with wrestling. Ric Flair could go up to any wrestler, now or then, and make them a star. Steamboat (granted) has a few good matches to be proud of, but without Flair going out of his way to bring Steamboat up, he wouldn't be jack shit. I relate Steamboat to Shelton Benjamin. He has all the skills in the world, great look, and is marketable...but until someone can come along and make something out of his, he isn't shit. Ric Flair walked into anywhere he went and made himself "The Man". He made American Style Wrestling popular before there was a name for it. It is because of Ric Flair (and to a lesser extent Superstar Billy) that we have the type of wrestling we have right now. Now don't get me wrong, I think the world of The Dragon...hell anyone who has had his career and his match resume to back it up deserves respect...but he isn't a drop in the bucket of greatness that is Flair. Both him and Sting owe their entire careers to Flair for taking them to a level they could have never reached on their own.

That is what most people forget about Flair. Yeah he is the 18 time (not 16 time, look it up) World Champion, but more then that, he gave us an entire slew of credible wrestlers. He is the only MEGA Main Eventer (other then The Rock) to make his opponite look better then him, and STILL come out stronger for it. Flair was always "The Man" to beat. Like I said eailer in the thread, Flair usually wasn't even the highlight of the match...but he made Main Eventers, he made Legends, he made Icons...and he did it all by making guys look better then they ever could on their own.

Now point me in the direction of some hills, cause I got a friends ass to woop.


Ok it's all a matter of opinion

Wait! What are you doing with that Axe!

No!

NOOOOOOOOOO!

[The One]

Axe? Hell no, he comes a Figure Four...BI-YATCH!

Just kiddin, you know I love ya.

[Dave Youell]

Axe? Hell no, he comes a Figure Four...BI-YATCH!

Just kiddin, you know I love ya.
*The one extends his hand*

*Dave looks around at the crowd, shakes it*

The HHH's music hits

*The one drops to one knee and gives the low blow and locks in the figure 4*

JR: He was in cahoots with the game all along!

[Pepsi Man]

Steamboat was the essence of a face though, i mean look at him. He's one of the worlds most attractive men ever! How could you boo that? Really, how?
I can't claim to be an expert, as I'm 100% heterosexual, and so I can't tell you how attractive a man is, but from women's reactions, there have been plenty of men in history that have been attractive but made great heels.

That's pretty much where the post loses credibility, I agree, some long matches are extremely better, and sometimes a 5 minute match would be better than 20, but the HBK-Bret Iron Man is a true classic that was awesome from start to finish.

With the other points, I agree, a good wrestling show has variety, like Mick Foley's "3 ring circus" theory. If you don't like the acrobats, you can watch 20 clowns come out of a car.

Raw was hot in the late 90s because you had a good mix of tag wrestling, a few cruiserweights here and there like Taka Michinoku or Essa Rios,, a great hardcore division, gimmicks such as Val Venis, Goldust and the Godfather, then in the 2000s guys like Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho were stealing the show.

Mentioning cruiserweights in the way you have kind of hurts this statement in general. I mean, back in the late 90s, cruiserweights were to Raw as juniors are to SmackDown!

[Dave Youell]

I can't claim to be an expert, as I'm 100% heterosexual, and so I can't tell you how attractive a man is

Stop there! Your defense is rested, Plus he could breath fire! No one else could actually breath fire! Like a Dragon!


DAVE WINS!

[Batsu]

So wait, screw technical wrestling, but give you Benoit and Angle? This seems to be more anti ROH/pro WWE than it is anti technical or anything, and that's coming from me, someone who finds ROH to be hugely overrated by a lot of the "smarks" myself.

Exactly. I was about to label this thread with the requisite "^^^^ PB&J ^^^^" until I read some of the replies.

Right now, I'm kind of a "WWE needs to get the F Back or get the F out" sort of mindset.

I like a balanced show like most other fans, because simply, you can't expect JBL to go turning suplexes into powerbombs or any other innovative offense.

On the other hand, hearing JBL talk about how he is a "WRESTLING ..... GOD" is hilarious, and should be a part of the show.

But WWE has a problem with making it too much about "the show", and this "Booking for Thrills" trend is a horrible example of how it backfires.

After Benoit and Co. came in from WCW, and the brand split first showed SmackDown with a fresher show, WWE was at its best in years. Then Vince and Co. started clamping down the good stuff.

I like to see cool finishers, too. But the way WWE is now, you won't see them. I'm surprised they even allowed the F-5 when they did.

I don't think I want to see ROH-ers in WWE now, because they would be watered down, and horribly misused. Ask any wrestler that was popular in other feds before coming to WWE.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Mentioning cruiserweights in the way you have kind of hurts this statement in general. I mean, back in the late 90s, cruiserweights were to Raw as juniors are to SmackDown!

I agree, but for some part of 97-98, the WWF Light Heavyweight title DID mean something, but not for long. And I honestly struggled to think of anyone other than TAKA and Aguila, but they WERE there if you looked hard enough. There was still enough variety on Raw to make the statement worthwhile though.

[Pepsi Man]

I agree, but for some part of 97-98, the WWF Light Heavyweight title DID mean something, but not for long. And I honestly struggled to think of anyone other than TAKA and Aguila, but they WERE there if you looked hard enough. There was still enough variety on Raw to make the statement worthwhile though.
Don't you mean Shotgun Saturday Night?:p

[Batsu]

Let's try something a little more coherent this time. The earlier post I made seemed more like a rant.

When one says "Screw Technical Wrestling", my first instinct is to say, "EH EHHHHHHHHHH!" as Steve Austin might say. Like it or not, technical wrestling is the bread-and-butter of the pro wrestling world. Without it, you might as well be watching a horribly choreographed bunch of brawls that serve as filler for a horribly written soap opera (This isn't just WWE specific, but as you see, mostly applies to WWE).

However, in the world of pro wrestling, especially as it's presented in North America, technical wrestling isn't enough to hook the fans. You need characters all over the whole spectrum, from low-key (Shelton and Charlie Haas before they gimmicked them all the way up) to the over-the-top (Boogeyman, Shark Boy, etc) to appeal to the wide mass of fans that tune in every week. But at the bottom of it all, no matter how over the character is, you still need to know how to wrestle at a basic level. Say what you will about JBL, but at least he knows how to do a Fall-Away Slam and a powerbomb, which are wrestling moves. Most people remember Stone Cold Steve Austin as a brawler, but he was one of the finest technical wrestlers out there -- and when he was heel, one got to see it more often. The same thing goes for The Rock, Ric Flair, HHH, even (Master of 5 Holds) Hulk Hogan. They all have to pull out technical wrestling at a very basic level to even be in the business.

A show all about technical wrestling nowadays just won't fly. But that doesn't mean the show has to be about a whole bunch of low-budget, on-the-seat-of-your pants, poorly booked crap either. I stand firmly in the fact that the reason ECW was so popular, even after its demise, was because even though it had (and pioneered) the "garbage" wrestling, table-breaking, foul language, and general "attitude" that is seen in most wrestling shows today, it never pretended to be anything other than a wrestling show.

I feel the problem with wrestling today, is not that it's missing a bunch of ROH/TNA/etc. guys that can fly all over the ring, and do all kinds of innovative offense. While I do feel that's an important component to a good wrestling show, the real problem at every time pro wrestling has had a downturn, is that once they hit a particular bit of success, they veer away from what made it great. The mid-90s WWE outside of Bret Hart and co. was ultra cartoonish, even in comparison to WCW (except when it copied WWE).

In the case of WWE, it's what I like to call a group of set barriers (WARNING: PREACHING TO THE CHOIR AHEAD):

1. "Booking For Thrills". The "Attitude" era has corrupted Vince and co. into thinking that wrestling fans want to know who fathered whomever's baby, who wrestlers are sleeping with, and all this other monkey crap that will be forgotten when the Universal WWE Continuity Clause expires. Characters bounce from heel to face for no reason at all, do things out of line with the character that has been established because of WWE's "reboot-happy" booking. Kurt Angle is a great example of this. Not to mention, it also fosters a situation where wrestlers are being brough up from the "farm leagues" before their time, and expected to perform at an unnatural pace. It also fosters a situation in which, just when WWE gets something right, it tanks because they go too far (see: Hassan).

2. The reluctance to let wrestlers (that have the capability to do so) just be themselves. Ever since Vince and co. got burned with the departure of Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, and all the others going to WCW, Vince is not content on letting wrestlers go out and be all they can be. It took a couple years for Steve Austin to ....well, be Steve Austin again. Wrestlers that were popular in other feds have it worst of all (see: Taz, Chris Jericho, Sean O'Haire, even Lex Luger), but when it starts happening to "homegrown" wrestlers like John Cena, then there's a huge problem.

3. Related to #2, the pussification of in-ring product. Yes, pro wrestling is a multi-million dollar business that hinges on the good health of its competitors. However, what has happened in WWE, especially since the piledriver ban (something instituted with good reason, after the Stone Cold incident), seems to not only piss on the moves of wrestling tradition, but limited the innovation of up and coming wrestlers. The same boring slams and drops are being replicated over and over, when you know some could be doing much better. Don't think that John Cena wasn't "influenced" to stop making his F-U a sitout move. Not everyone has to pull out an "F-5", but no one should be using something as lame as a Pumphandle Slam as a finisher in this day and age.

4. Related to #1 and #3, the de-emphasis on wrestling. If WWE is to be a place where storylines supercede characters, they should at least try to inject some sense into the booking, and never forget that the WWE Title(s) are the main goal. During the best runs of WWE, it all centered on title chases. Even now, people seem more enthused in seeing who gets to dethrone HHH (or Cena, or Batista, or whoever) than well, whose poo Boogeyman happened to fling at someone. While you can't put everyone in a title match, sometimes it wouldn't hurt but to remember where the show is grounded.

5. The inability of Vince and Co. to accept its losses and take moves for the better of their company's constituents. This is not saying Vince should still try to "Get The F Back" (by now I'm used to it being called WWE), but also, he 0should take steps to make it so that he doesn't pretend that the "F" never existed. Shell out whatever it'd cost for that stupid Fund to STFU about the initials "WWF" being said on TV. On that note, shell out to Ventura or whoever circumvented the snakey policies of WWE regarding ownership of intellectual property, long after superstars leave the company, so that we can view old broadcasts as they were originally intended. Shell out for the REAL music as heard on PPVs and elsewhere. (This one's a stretch, because it's not just a WWE problem, but a problem for any TV program that used licensed music, see: SCTV, WKRP...) As seen with the Bret Hart DVD and the use of Bret Hart's image in official WWE merchandise (video games especially), it pays to see mended fences.

6. The inability of WWE to get with the times when it counts. If not for one Steve Austin being allowed to let loose, WWE would have been eaten up by WCW in an instant. The success of Stone Cold allowed The Rock, HHH, and others in that "class" to flourish. Somehow, somewhere, the clamps came down again. While wrestling has always been grounded in stereotypes, some of the ones WWE employs are way too outmoded. Shelton's mama comes to mind. I remember not being too enthused with Eugene and Hassan at first, though....

All in all, it seems that WWE could enjoy great storylines (ala the original cable programming that's the rage now), and still have some good wrestling behind it. But because of these barriers (#1 in particular), WWE will never get there.

Going back to the original point, the most important thing of it all, is that a wrestling show has to have wrestling to get over. Cool moves, and feuds, is what it's all about. Otherwise, why is anyone even watching the crap?