Annd Sony just keeps the bullshit rolling

[Lara Emily]

http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/19/sony-claims-xbox-360-requires-hd-dvd-etc-thus-costs-700/



http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2006/10/sony_chart1.jpg


http://presscenter.playstation.com/Content/detailslots/2204/Next-Gen%20Comparison%20FINAL.doc

[Funky Fly]

LOL

Superbastards.

[Dave Youell]

Sorry, unless i'm missing something here, they do seem to have a valid point, that if you want an Xbox to meet the same specs as a PS3 it's gonna cost you overall more as an investment?

For the record I hate Sony for what they did yesterday, this just seems like a clever peice of marketing, granted some people will be fooled by it because they are not researching into what they actually want or need, if your going to spend this much cash on a product, you need to make sure you know what you're getting

[What Would Kevin Do?]

It's clever marketing. That's not them being bastards, that's them doing business.

[Lara Emily]

HDD is not needed for games, since they are including the Wii, they are clearly attempting to make a game console comparison. Online for Ps3 will likely not be really free as game companies will probably charge you to play their games online, they also ignore that you can get most of the features the core 360 lacks with the premimum package which costs about 399$ (you get everything minus free online and HDD drive which you don't need anyway)

It's BS

[Lara Emily]

It's clever marketing. That's not them being bastards, that's them doing business.

Marketing or not it's still BS.

[Funky Fly]

Yeah, but it might look like you need to buy the HD-DVD, according to that chart. Imagine if you are non-gamer salesperson or a parent buying an XBox for your kids at Christmas. That chart will make you think more about a PS3 if a 360 is gonna run you $700.

It's misleading in Sony's fvour. Dirty pool.

[Funky Fly]

It's clever marketing. That's not them being bastards, that's them doing business.
False portraying a rival's specs is bastardly, especially around Christmas time when many of the people buying consoles will be non-gaming (and thus uninformed) parents buying for their kids.

I sincerely hope Microsoft wins that lawsuit (probably the only time I'll ever say or type that).

[Lara Emily]

False portraying a rival's specs is bastardly, especially around Christmas time when many of the people buying consoles will be non-gaming (and thus uninformed) parents buying for their kids.

I sincerely hope Microsoft wins that lawsuit (probably the only time I'll ever say or type that).
Assuming there's any truth to MS planning on suing I just quoted that site because that's where I found the chart initially.

Anyway drop the 50$ for the wireless controller because it's included in the 399$ premimum, the 50$ xbox live is negated by the fact that once again the Xbox 360 Premimum package includes HD cables whereas the PS3 core package will apparantly not and you'll need to buy it at 50$

So it all comes down to the drives, if you want all the snazzy bells and whistles of playing HD or Blue Ray movie, neither of which have proven to have any staying power yet then sure maybe you can some how say the PS3 is cheaper by 50 bucks.

But for a pure game console the fact is this: An HDD is not required to play games on the 360, a Blue Ray Drive is for the PS3, thus in gaming only PS3 costs more.

Plus who knows how much games are going to cost, we could maybe be looking at 100$ for some games just because it's Blue Ray. (but that's just speculation on my part)

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Meh. The big issue here seems to be the HDDVD player. Sony can play Blu-ray movies. If Xbox wants to compete with that, then it would need an HDDVD player. So to say that they'd need to buy one to be on level with the PS3 is not a lie.

Essentially, one can play next gen movie formats, one can't. For them to be even, both would have to be able to.

The only grounds to argue on is the use of the word "require" which I agree, is underhanded. However, Sony isn't in the wrong. They are a business who's primary concern is to turn a profit.

"Facts" exist for the sake of being manipulated. All companies do it.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

So to review.

Premium X-Box for $399 has all the stuff the Core PS3 advertises, minus the Blu Ray player, for 100 cheaper.

But if you add a next gen media player to the 360, it's no longer cheaper.

[V]

what's a ps3?

[Lara Emily]

Meh. The big issue here seems to be the HDDVD player. Sony can play Blu-ray movies. If Xbox wants to compete with that, then it would need an HDDVD player. So to say that they'd need to buy one to be on level with the PS3 is not a lie.

Essentially, one can play next gen movie formats, one can't. For them to be even, both would have to be able to.

The only grounds to argue on is the use of the word "require" which I agree, is underhanded. However, Sony isn't in the wrong. They are a business who's primary concern is to turn a profit.

"Facts" exist for the sake of being manipulated. All companies do it.


Then the Wii shouldn't be in that chart at all cause it's not going to be the big media centre that either the PS3 and 360. The fact that they put it there clearly shows (and why am I saying this again) that they are trying to do a game console (not media centre) comparison

Besides all that aisde the fact remains they still misrepresent prices, since you can get the 20Gb HD, the Wireless Controller for 399$, plus you get your HD cables, where as for 499$ sure you get the Blue Ray drive (which right now is fucking worthless in terms of movies anyway) but you don't get your cables, for those you need to spend 50$ or get the premimum and get a few more whistles at 599$ and low and behold when you compare full.

That's where the lie is you will never have to spend 700$ for the upgraded core 360

[Lara Emily]

So to review.

Premium X-Box for $399 has all the stuff the Core PS3 advertises, minus the Blu Ray player, for 100 cheaper.

But if you add a next gen media player to the 360, it's no longer cheaper.
Yes and No

Because the Premium 360 with HDD comes to about 599$ more or less

The core PS3 comes to 499$ but then you need to the HD cables, which is then 549$ (which buy then you might as well buy the premium package which gets you a 60 GB HD at 599$)

Fuck the online comparison, some companies are going to charge you to play online, not to mention the quality of online service is different.

The fact remains though: Microsoft is not forcing you to buy their 200$ "Next Gen DVD drive", Sony is. This chart is all about the game console not the overall media centre crap (otherwise the Wii shouldn't be in there at all)

[Destor]

Is it wrong that I can't comprehend this conversation?

[Dave Youell]

Is it wrong that I can't comprehend this conversation?
I was with it at the start then loads more numbers and $ signs kepts showing up.

In short, sony have put out marketing that states for the 360 to be a viable comparison on all levels, you need to spend more overall. The Wii shouldn't be there are it's not up-gradable and is in a different market range.

WWKD and me agree that Sony have just done clever marketing.

Lara believes that Sony are shit bags (well I agree with that one) and have acted improperly

[What Would Kevin Do?]

The Wii is there because it's a next generation system. It makes sense for it to be there. All 3 are gaming systems. However, the 360 and PS3 are also media systems. What they seem to be doing is comparing the 360 and Ps3 as media systems... The Wii is up there since it is a next gen game system, but it can't compete in terms of media systems... Essentially, if you want a media system, don't get a WII.,


Anywho.... With the premium X-Box, you only get Silver X-Box Live.... I honestly don't know what the hell the difference is between Gold and Silver, but anywho. You're right, for the 399 cost, you get the 20G, you get the wireless controller, and you get some sort of online play.

So yeah, Essentially, the Core PS3 is 100 more exspensive than the Premium X-Box, but you get a Bluray player, which at this time, Microsoft isn't making you by something comparable to it. They might in the future, who knows.

Just to go back to my original point though, outside of the use of the word "Required" the Sony comparrison does nothing wrong. They aren't lying. They're basically saying "If you bought a core Xbox 360 and upgraded, this is what it would cost." While these facts aren't really relevant, since you can get the Premium for cheaper, they aren't lies.

It's a smart business move. I'm not going to act like Sony is the devil because they're doing smart business.

[Lara Emily]

Microsoft has said they have zero plans of ever making HD DVD games on the 360, granted things change but that's the facts right now.

The problem with their quoting is again though that you don't need and never have needed to buy wireless controllers and the HD drive seperately at full price.

[ct2k]

lol, the next-next generation will be coming out by the time bluray has got even a remotely decent selection of movies, fuck that

[Mr. Monday Morning]

Anybody who actually gets taken in at all by that kind of comparison deserves to be wrung for every penny they have.

[Funky Fly]

Ok, look.

Misrepresenting facts =/= clever marketing.

It =/= lying.

Unfortunately for consumers, lying =/= illegal.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Explain how spinning the facts isn't clever marketing?

Also, explain to me where Sony is lying? Especially if you take the "required" aspect to mean that they would be required to be on level with the core PS3 system.

[Dave Youell]

At no point did Sony lie, they just didn't tell the whole truth

[Funky Fly]

Semantics. It's still attempted deception.

[ct2k]

Indeed, Sony have dug themselves a hole and deception is their only option right now. Saying "hey its twice as expensive but its worth it honestly please please buy it!" will not cut it with parents stressed to fuck over christmas and their whiny little brat kids.

[Kane Knight]

Sorry, unless i'm missing something here, they do seem to have a valid point, that if you want an Xbox to meet the same specs as a PS3 it's gonna cost you overall more as an investment?

Note the words "requires user to buy."

Note that, while the WII has a DVD attatchment planned, it's not factored in as a requirement.

Yeah...

[Dave Youell]

Note the words "requires user to buy."

Note that, while the WII has a DVD attatchment planned, it's not factored in as a requirement.

Yeah...
Have Nintendo released a price for said DVD add on?

Has anyone got a copy of the entire document Sony have released other than that table?

[DS]

Stop bitching. It's just a console. Your constant complaining isn't going to make Sony pull out of the "console war" or persuade anyone who was going to purchase away from it.

The image makes complete sense and it's obvious that you understand that. To match the PS3, a core 360 would require a hard drive, HD-DVD drive, a gold membership, and a wireless controller. Even with the premium 360 you would still have to buy an HD-DVD drive and a gold membership which would be $650.

And stop trying to make up things to make the free PS3 network look bad. It is free out of the box and you don't need a $50 subscription. It doesn't matter if game companies make you pay because it would be just as if they made you pay for the 360. Only ones that are going to make you pay are going to be MMOs which is almost obvious.

[Kane Knight]

Have Nintendo released a price for said DVD add on?

Why, logically, would you treat an unknown as 0, though? They're already doctoring the prices....

[DS]

What? If you're talking about the price comparison the DVD Drive is down as N/A.

[Kane Knight]

Which is treating it as a 0. N/A Means Not Applicable. And while I Didn't mention money (I said 0, btw, not $0), this greatly impacts the cost of the WII. Hell, they even misrepresented the WII's online service.

By the way, Youell, you asked if anyone had access to the rest of the document. Are you too retarded to actually think to look at the article, click the link, and read it yourself? It's not that hard to find the full "fact sheet." I'd imagine, since this is an actual Sony release, it can also be found on Sony's corporate site, but I wouldn't want you to strain yourself any more than necessary.

(Sorry to tack this on to my response to you, DS, but I'd forgotten to reply to part 2 of Youell's message).

[HeartBreakMan2k]

DIdn't read much of the thread, but Sony announced at our managers conference the "core" Ps3 does come with the HDMI cables now.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Have Nintendo released a price for said DVD add on?

Has anyone got a copy of the entire document Sony have released other than that table?

At last stand Nintendo dropped the DVD add on.

[Joey Slugs]

All this mean is that the PS3 is still going to suck.

[Dorkchop]

ALSO The Wii's online access will be $0 for the first six months and $0 after the first six months. It will always be $0 from what I know.

[Destor]

Nope.
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/26/wii-opera-browser-free-worldwide-until-june-2007/

[Dorkchop]

Oh, it was their Wifi gaming that will always be free. I don't know if I'll need the browser or not.

[V]

well if you get the browser before june 2007 you're fine

you should be killed if you dont' have a wii by then anyway

[Dave Youell]

By the way, Youell, you asked if anyone had access to the rest of the document. Are you too retarded to actually think to look at the article, click the link, and read it yourself? It's not that hard to find the full "fact sheet." I'd imagine, since this is an actual Sony release, it can also be found on Sony's corporate site, but I wouldn't want you to strain yourself any more than necessary.

Sorry, I meant I was after a statement from Sony that accompanies the tables, yes i've linked via the story and it goes to another page from the same site with no source linked.

I just want to see the line of text which states you MUST have all this on the Xbox.

Also buddy, why have you got to be so agressive all the dam time?

[What Would Kevin Do?]

It's the hormones.

[Kane Knight]

Sorry, I meant I was after a statement from Sony that accompanies the tables, yes i've linked via the story and it goes to another page from the same site with no source linked.

I just want to see the line of text which states you MUST have all this on the Xbox.

Also buddy, why have you got to be so agressive all the dam time?

Sorry, didn't know arguing was "aggressive." My bad. I shall stop disputing logic, and start fellating everyone. :roll:

Back on topic, you over-senstive twat...

It says "required." The logic of your argument falls short two-fold:


By any logical standards, the two should be interchangeable. Required means you must have it. Or you need to have it. The use of "must" is conceptually synonymous.
As such, if you cannot use one, ignoring the use of one and then demanding a synonym which can be dismissed by the same standards of "logic" is pointless.And so on. You can then continue to argue that "it doesn't say you absolutely positively need it or you will die and rot on the ninth circle of Hell!" But all you're really doing is trying to circumvent a definition by paring it down needlessly. And doing a poor job, since you're arguing a synonymous concept.

[DS]

The picture is not telling you what components are required to run the console. It is comparing the consoles to the PS3 and what additional components would be required to match the PS3. So to match the PS3 you would be required to buy a HDD and an HD-DVD drive for your 360 core bundle.

[Kane Knight]

The picture is not telling you what components are required to run the console. It is comparing the consoles to the PS3 and what additional components would be required to match the PS3. So to match the PS3 you would be required to buy a HDD and an HD-DVD drive for your 360 core bundle.

Show me where it says that. You know that's neither the actual intent, nor the implacation.

[Dave Youell]

Sorry, didn't know arguing was "aggressive." My bad. I shall stop disputing logic, and start fellating everyone. :roll:

Back on topic, you over-senstive twat...

It says "required." The logic of your argument falls short two-fold:


By any logical standards, the two should be interchangeable. Required means you must have it. Or you need to have it. The use of "must" is conceptually synonymous.
As such, if you cannot use one, ignoring the use of one and then demanding a synonym which can be dismissed by the same standards of "logic" is pointless.And so on. You can then continue to argue that "it doesn't say you absolutely positively need it or you will die and rot on the ninth circle of Hell!" But all you're really doing is trying to circumvent a definition by paring it down needlessly. And doing a poor job, since you're arguing a synonymous concept.

I'm not being over sensitive, just seems like whenever you and I get into a debate which consists of more than 3 posts you go to name calling, whatever.

Not going to bother with this as it's going in circles, any consumer with half a brain making a purchase this big would investigate what they require. Sony have just priced up the equivalents

[DS]

Show me where it says that. You know that's neither the actual intent, nor the implacation.
Update: SCEA's own Dave Karraker, Senior Director of Corporate Communications, furnished the following response: "Through our comparison chart we are not implying that you must purchase the myriad of peripherals and add-ons that Microsoft offers to play your Xbox 360. You don't. However, if you want to attempt to come close to the performance of the $499 PlayStation 3 by using your Xbox 360, Core or Premium, you could only do that through expensive add-ons -- that is what our chart is demonstrating. Once you add it all up, it would cost you more than our $499 unit, and you would still not come close to everything we offer, ie: free multiplayer gaming, 50GB storage capacity of Blu-ray disc, Blu-ray disc player for games AND movies, processing power of the Cell Broadband Engine."

[Lara Emily]

Update: SCEA's own Dave Karraker, Senior Director of Corporate Communications, furnished the following response: "Through our comparison chart we are not implying that you must purchase the myriad of peripherals and add-ons that Microsoft offers to play your Xbox 360. You don't. However, if you want to attempt to come close to the performance of the $499 PlayStation 3 by using your Xbox 360, Core or Premium, you could only do that through expensive add-ons -- that is what our chart is demonstrating. Once you add it all up, it would cost you more than our $499 unit, and you would still not come close to everything we offer, ie: free multiplayer gaming, 50GB storage capacity of Blu-ray disc, Blu-ray disc player for games AND movies, processing power of the Cell Broadband Engine."

They still fudged numbers.

[DS]

I don't see where they did but if you want to believe so then feel free.

[Requiem]

They forgot to carry the 2 and move the decimal.

[RP]

Nintendo

[Requiem]

Sega

[Kane Knight]

Update: SCEA's own Dave Karraker, Senior Director of Corporate Communications, furnished the following response: "Through our comparison chart we are not implying that you must purchase the myriad of peripherals and add-ons that Microsoft offers to play your Xbox 360. You don't. However, if you want to attempt to come close to the performance of the $499 PlayStation 3 by using your Xbox 360, Core or Premium, you could only do that through expensive add-ons -- that is what our chart is demonstrating. Once you add it all up, it would cost you more than our $499 unit, and you would still not come close to everything we offer, ie: free multiplayer gaming, 50GB storage capacity of Blu-ray disc, Blu-ray disc player for games AND movies, processing power of the Cell Broadband Engine."

To think, they come up with this after threatened with the prospect of a lawsuit. Yes, I believe that's what they meant all along.

[Requiem]

It's what I assumed the second I read that chart. I didn't really think it was that hard of a concept to grasp to be honest.

[packt up]

For some reason I hope the PS3 does really badly. Its crazy expensive, has been delayed numerous times, and has that stupid blu-ray thing. The 360 seems like a fine console on the limited time I've spent on it, while the Wii looks really innovative. Hopefully Sony loses a big market chunk.

[Kane Knight]

:lol: @ the Wii being innovative.