Defining "old school" Hip Hop..

[Kris P Lettus]

This was brought up the other day on here and me and my buddy where talking about it in real life..

What is your definition of "oldskool"??

I realize, that all shit from the 80's will be considered.. Shit like RUN DMC, Beasties, LL Cool J, Herbie Handcock, Afrika Bambata, Fab Five Freddy, Trecherous Three, Eric B and Rakim, Slick Rick The Ruler, The Diabolical Biz Markie, Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five, Public Ememy, Boogie Down Productions, Soul Sonic Force, etc, etc, etc..

But what about early 90's shit?? The Chronic, Enter the 36 Chambers of Shaolin, Illmatic, SoutherPlayalisticCaddilacFunkyMusic, Ready to Die, bakdafukup, The Infamous Modd Deep, etc..

I mean, these can't be considered new, as they all came out like 14 years ago..

So, my question again "What is your definition of oldskool??"..

Is it a time frame of when it was released?? Like a car, once an album passes a certain age, is it then cansidered "oldskool"??

Or, is it just the sound of it?? Only oldskool breaks and simplistic lyrics may apply??

I mean, if the latter is the case, shit like Jurassic 5 could be considered "oldskool" because they have that sound and all around vibe..

I dunno, personnally, I consider shit like Illmatic and the first rotation Wu cd's to be oldskool.. They came out when I was in Jr High and I grew up with them.. They are almost 15 years old..

So, discuss..

[Kris P Lettus]

I also think the pennicle of Hip Hop was '93-'94.. Some of the G.O.A.T. were released those years.. The style of Hip Hop changed all around..

p.s. Also, you must think about NWA.. They didn't make it big until the early 90's and they are widely accepted as being "oldskool"..

[Savio]

Anything before gangsta rap hit mainstream.

[Kris P Lettus]

So shit like NWA or Geto Boys aren't oldskool??

Listen to Express Yourself or Assasins..

[Savio]

well NWA was out in the 80s and gangsta rap hit mainstream in 92 I believe

[Kris P Lettus]

Straight Outta Compton came out in '89.. It was the first "mainstream" "Gangsta Rap" album..

Your definition is null and void..

[Kris P Lettus]

Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet came out in 1990, after "Gangsta Rap" hit the mainstream..

Is it not "oldskool"??

[Savio]

gangsta rap did not become mainstream until the 90s either 91 or 92. And by mainstream I don't mean a few people made gangsta rap CDS.

[Stickman]

Floresent clothes and walking around with a boom box on your shoulder.

[Kris P Lettus]

gangsta rap did not become mainstream until the 90s either 91 or 92. And by mainstream I don't mean a few people made gangsta rap CDS.

As I already said, "Straight Outta Compton" was the first mainstream rap album.. "Straight Outta Compton" and "Express Yourself" were both played on MTV.. That album went platinum..

Pretty f'n mainstream right there..

[Anybody Thrilla]

I think the old school beats and simplistic lyrics are 'old school' in terms of an old school style, but Wu Tang's early stuff, Onyx, early Outkast, etc. is what I would consider new old school, not in terms of only the timeframe, but how they started changing rap.

[Kris P Lettus]

Yeah, 93-94 was kinda the turn from the more disco breaks to a much more grimey sound..

That is around the time I went from mostly grunge/metal to mostly Hip Hop.. I always listened to rap.. I still have Raising Hell on vinel, but back then was mostly into rock.. I remeber hearing "1 800 Suicide" by Gravediggaz on the Demon Night soundtrack.. That led me to Wu Tang.. Also, Anthrax was one of my favorite bands around that time and their shit with PE was outstanding.. As was Onxy/Biohazard.. I guess the sound turned more into a more hardcore "Metal" sound around that time..

Blame that for my love of Hip Hop today..

[Johnny Vegas]

I think anything really before Tupac came about (around '92) was considered old school. I think Tupac and people like Busta Rhymes, Biggie, Mobb Deep, and the Wu-Tang Clan are examples of the "Gangsta Rap" era. I really do think that hip hop is broken down into eras. Those being:

-Renaissance (Afrikka Bamba...Zu Lu Nation, those type)
-Old Skool (KRS-One, LL Cool J, Run DMC, Public Enemy, Beastie Boys, Rakim, N.W.A.)
-Gangsta Rap (Nas, Tupac, Biggie, Jay-Z, DMX, Busta, Ice Cube)
-Pop/Nu Skool Rap (Nelly, 50 Cent, Common, etc)
-Regional Rap (Dirty Souf, Up North/East, West, Midwest, etc.) I give this example because rap today has so many outlets to it. Before, it WAS different, but blended in more IMO than today's rap. People classify by regions now.

Yea...something like that.

[Kris P Lettus]

Good points but, Busta Rhymes was with Tribe Called Quest back in the day.. I mean, he's on "Scenario" and that came out in '91..

[FakeLaser]

My feeling is that the "old school" is something that progresses with time like anything else in the world.

Classic rock is another example. When I was growing up, on the "oldies" stations, all I would hear was stuff from the 50s and 60s, basically. Elvis Presley, Beach Boys, Jefferson Airplane, The Doors, etc. Now, 20 years later, that stuff is all still on the "classic rock" stations but so is stuff like Van Halen, The Clash, Rush, and I've even heard Guns N' Roses and Nirvana on classic rock stations.

I guess to be considered "old school" your style of music has to come and go, and be gone for some time. The Run DMC/Grandmaster Flash old school style gave way to gangsta rap, which gave way to the more materialistic mainstream rap we see nowadays. "Old school" isn't really a defined genre, it changes with the time and trends in music.

It really depends on how you look at it though. If you were to clearly define "old school" or "classic rock," you'd have to look at the initial artists, that first sort of "era" of the genre. Your Afrika Bambaataa's, Run DMC's, Public Enemy, etc.

[FakeLaser]

I guess I didn't really give a definitive answer, just 2 ways of looking at it.

I'd say the second point I made is how it should be looked at. The first way I described it is how the mainstream media looks at it. It's those first artists, the pioneers who basically created the genre who should be looked at as "old school." All those who followed were part of a different movement. There's a reason why it was called "Gangsta rap" and not just "rap." It was a different style, a different variation on a pre-existing genre. Punk rock is still rock, but it's a variant.

The new styles and artists can be equally as influential, important and popular, or perhaps even more so, but they weren't the first, they didn't create the genre, hence they are not what you would call "old school."

[Kris P Lettus]

The people who actually created the genre get no credit..

[Savio]

As I already said, "Straight Outta Compton" was the first mainstream rap album.. "Straight Outta Compton" and "Express Yourself" were both played on MTV.. That album went platinum..

Pretty f'n mainstream right there..Every video played on MTV is not main stream. D-12s Purple Hills was played on MTV and I'm sure if you asked people if they heard about it more then 60% would say no.

So if you asked people if they heard of gangsta rap in 89 more then 60% would say no. WHY? Because although they might have got some play on MTV they didn't get any radio play. (atleast where I lived)

[FakeLaser]

What are you talking about? That song was huge. It may have even been number one on TRL.

[Savio]

Anything before gangsta rap hit mainstream.
So shit like NWA or Geto Boys aren't oldskool??

Listen to Express Yourself or Assasins..
Straight Outta Compton came out in '89.. It was the first "mainstream" "Gangsta Rap" album..

Your definition is null and void.. Your Arguement is null and void

[Savio]

What are you talking about? That song was huge. It may have even been number one on TRL.I think it was 3. but It was not main stream.

(BTW my definition of main stream is if you ask a bunch of people about something 80% will know what your talking about)

[FakeLaser]

Eminem was involved. It was mainstream.

[Bad Company]

I'm gonna go with, Chingy.

[Savio]

Eminem was involved. It was mainstream.agree to disagree.

[Funky Fly]

Kinda find myself agreeing with JV. Other than a few discrepancies (like the aformentioned Busta thing), he is pretty much spot on.

[Batsu]

Traditionally:

anything before 1986 is called "Old School"
from 1986 to about 1992 = "New (or True) School"

and 1992-Present just is.

Though, judging by the intent of this post and its replies...
albums recorded earlier than 1996 might as well be considered "Old School".
To some people, albums recorded prior to 2000 are considered "Old School", but I can't really see that.

There's usually some artist at the dividing line of a stylistic era.
The borderline between the original Old and New Schools was Rakim.
Then again, when the class that birthed Nas and the like came of age, it was another turning point.

Since then, even though the music has progressed (and a lot of cases, regressed IMO) over the years, I can't quite find that one person that changed it for everyone.

The biggest events of the last 10 or so years in the genre has been moreso the deaths of significant figures (BIG, 2Pac) than anyone's entrance.

I also agree with Savior's assertion that "Gangsta Rap" as a genre didn't quite become permeated into the "mainstream" until after Dr. Dre's The Chronic.

NWA was very popular before then (and spawned a lot of other acts and even more imitators), but they were like very popular "contraband" in a genre that was very "contraband" to begin with.

It wasn't until after The Chronic did people even start talking about that type of rap music being "Gangsta", as hordes of imitators and those influenced by the album came about started coming out and selling records.

It really didn't become "mainstream" until pop rap became that type of music.

In the '80s and early '90s, "mainstream" defined the pop rap that was clean enough to be played on the radio unaltered, and found its way out of niche markets. That kind of music was generally regarded in a derisive manner from some of its more "edgy" acts like Ice Cube, Public Enemy, and even EPMD.

However, gradually as the years went by, more "explicit" and edgy music became the default to the genre, as it was the highest grossing, despite its content. A lot of this is what people label "Gangsta Rap".

This is why Eminem and 50 Cent correspond more closely to Vanilla Ice and Hammer in terms of market position (definitely not stylistically). In 1989-1990, Eminem and 50 Cent would be kept out of the "mainstream" spotlight due to their content. Also, why a Jay-Z is one of the more recognized faces in the genre.

Whoops... went off on a tangent.

[Kris P Lettus]

I think it was 3. but It was not main stream.

(BTW my definition of main stream is if you ask a bunch of people about something 80% will know what your talking about)

I don't give a fuck what your defintion is, if a video is played on TRL, it's mainstream..

If a million people buy an album, it's mainstream.. "Straight Outta Compton" went platinum..

[Kris P Lettus]

Oh, and I was eight years old when that album first came out..

If I remember the videos, it was f'n mainstream..

[Savio]

Obie trice went platnuim too. He is not mainstream.

[Savio]

ANYWAY YOUR ORIGINAL ARGUEMENT IS VOID SINCE NWA HAD OTHER CDS BEFORE STRAIGHT OUT COMPTON.

[Anybody Thrilla]

Obie Trice is pretty mainstream, though. I know this because I know a bunch of chickenhead white girls who don't know dick about hip hop who love him.

[Kris P Lettus]

ANYWAY YOUR ORIGINAL ARGUEMENT IS VOID SINCE NWA HAD OTHER CDS BEFORE STRAIGHT OUT COMPTON.

HOW IS IT NULL AND VOID WHEN YOU WERE THE ONE WHO SAID "ANYTHING BEFORE GANGSTA RAP WENT MAINSTREAM" AND THAT WAS THE ALBUM THAT MADE IT MAINSTREAM?!?!?

[Savio]

"NWA and the posse" was realeased before "Straight outta compton".

[Kris P Lettus]

Yes, so by your definition, that album is oldskool, while anything after "Straight Outta Compton", isn't..

[Kris P Lettus]

How does that effect what I said in any way shape or form??

[Savio]

refer to post 20

[Champion of Europa]

Johnny Vegas made a lot of sense to me.

[LoDownM]

Anything that came out before 97-98 imo.

[Kris P Lettus]

refer to post 20

I still don't "get" what you are arguing??

You said that "anything after gangster rap went mainstream" isn't oldskool.. I then said that Straight Outta Compton came out in 1989, making your argument more retarded because alot of albums, that are considered oldskool, came out that same year and later than that..

What are you arguing??

That Straight Outta Compton isn't old skool??

[Kris P Lettus]

If you are still on the "anything after gangsta rap went mainstream" shit, here is a list of albums that came out after Straight Outta Compton:

Public Enemy-Fear of a Black Planet
Beastie Boys-Paul's Boutique
MC Hammer-Please Hammer Don't Hurt Em (which had "Can't Touch This)
Slick Rick-The Adventures of Slick Rick (fist solo album)
De La Soul-3 Feet High and Rising (first album)
Tribe Called Quest-People's Instinctive Travels and Paths of Rhythem (first album)
Digital Underground-Sex Packets (first album)
Vanilla Ice-To the Extreme

This all happened a year after the FBI investigated NWA for the single "Fuck the Police"..

Also, "Yo Mtv Raps" with host Fab Five Freddy debuted in '89... It was also the first year they gave out a Grammy for Best Rap Album..

Tell me that isn't oldskool...

*edit* I could add to that list all day..

[Jeritron]

I didn't read through the thread...but I'd say "old school" hip hop died off around when Pac and Biggie became popular, and then certainly when they died.
Rap had gone through the gangsta rap changes in the early 90s, but after pac and biggie rap was huge. Old school hip hop I guess would be defined pre-gangsta, even though I'd consider gangsta rap and pre-pac and biggie death rap old school too.
I guess the big changes were the mainstream break in with Run DMC and Beastie Boys (say what you want, they made it acceptable for whites) and then after NWA and Death Row things really started to change.

[Jeritron]

de la soul

yo mtv raps

[Savio]

Gangsta rap didn't become mainstream until 1992 due in part to Dr. Dre.

[Kris P Lettus]

Once again, a platinum album with singles being played on MTV is pretty fucking mainstream..

[Kris P Lettus]

Wait, why would you say The Chronic was mainstream and not Straight Outta Compton??

[Savio]

because rap then was gaining in popularity. While NWA laid the foundation for it, it still was not as popular as it was in 1992.

[Johnny Vegas]

Would you two just read my posts. Others think mine is legit :heart:

[Johnny Vegas]

Oh yea, as far as Busta Rhymes, he's that exception. Because you look at him (people who REALLY follow hip hop) and like Kris P said, he was part of the Tribe Called Quest group, which IMO is old skool, yet brought some GREAT hits during the Gangsta Rap era.

Others, like LL Cool J, KRS One, and others like them are still old skool, even if they put out anything during the gangsta rap era because they were "known the most" at that point (old skool)

[Kris P Lettus]

I'd say LL Cool J is much more of a household name in the past 10 years than he ever was in the 80's..

Movies, that tv show, etc..

[Kris P Lettus]

Savior is retarded..

[St. Jimmy]

See: Feces

[FakeLaser]

Busta Rhymes wasn't in A Tribe Called Quest but he did collaborate with them a few times. He was in The Leaders of the New School

[Kris P Lettus]

Yeah, I just meant he came out earlier in the 90s than most people think.. The "recommend me Oldskool hip hop" thread reminded me of this.. In that thread, people suggested alot of shit from the early 90s, which I consider Oldskool..

[dronepool]

Old school hip hop has a different production sound. Mostly the way it's mixed and the way the drum machine sounds. But old school "is a term" and could be used to label pre mid 90's hip hop.

[Kris P Lettus]

Most Oldskool beats qhere taken from breaks of other songs and not made on a beat machine..

[dronepool]

Ah okay then. When did drum machines become more common in hip hop?

[Kris P Lettus]

Itheyve always been used but the original "breaks" were taken from other songs and juggled to make a new song.. Most innovative beat making came around in the early 90s with guys like RZA and Premere..

[dronepool]

Cool. Rza is awesome and DJ Premier is great.

[The Mask]

i would consider oldschool to be sort of up to the mid 90s. the backing tracks used to be way more interesting and cool back in the day. now it seems to be some sparse drumkit and huge synth sound which i don't like. although i liked whodini's 80s take on it :'(

[Savio]

You are fucking stupid krispy, I am stating GR didn't hit Mainstream till the 90s and you are saying it hit mainstream earlier. Fuckin learn to read.

"duhhh I dont know what you mean savior??"

Let me help you this is old school:

<object height="385" width="480">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IXuv7m-5_gw?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>

<object height="385" width="480">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5ZDUEilS5M4?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>

--------------------------------
This is not old school:<object height="385" width="480">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/172dFI6pbyg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>

[Kris P Lettus]

Straight Outta Compton is the debut studio album by American hip hop group N.W.A, released August 8, 1988 on group member Eazy-E's record label Ruthless Records. Its title refers to the group's native Compton, California. Production for the album was handled by Dr. Dre, with DJ Yella giving co-production. The album has been viewed as the pioneering record of gangsta rap; with its ever-present profanity and violent lyrics, it helped to give birth to this then-new sub-genre of hip hop. It has been considered groundbreaking by music writers and has had an enormous impact on the evolution of West Coast hip hop.[1]

Gansta rap emerged in 1988, as I said numerous times.. Just because you you thought otherwise doesn't make you correct.. Why are you arguing FACTS??

[Kris P Lettus]

Oh Savior "stated" it so it must be true..

[Savio]

Gansta rap emerged in 1988
It emerged in 1988 that doesn't mean that it was mainstream. Would you disagree that Gangsta-rap blew up in 1992?

Just like how UFC was around but it didn't really hit mainstream until around 2005

[Kris P Lettus]

Released in August of 1988, the album arguably had one of the biggest impacts on the industry than any other. The album embodied the genre of gangsta rap, and launched it into mainstream popularity. One of its biggest impacts was how it helped shift focus from the East coast to the West, establishing that coast as the power player of rap in the early '90s.

Just type "Straight Outta Compton" into google and every single one of the countless sites that talk about the album say two FACTS that you seem to keep ignoring..

-1988 release date
-first mainstream gansta rap album

[Kris P Lettus]

It was mainstream though.. It made albums have to have parental warning labels and was banned by the FBI.. It went double patinum..

Just because you don't remember it being huge they had two videos on regular rotation on MTV.. There were stories in the USA Today about it.. It changed the face of musis, not just Hip Hop..

But it wasnt mainstream??

[The Naitch]

Old School- ie. Eric B & Rakim, Kurtis Blow, EPMD, Public Enemy

New Old School- ie. "Nuthin' But A G Thang", "All Eyez On Me", Puff Daddy & Biggie, Eazy E & Bone Thugs

New School- Eminem, 50 Cent, Kanye, Jay-Z

The Future- Drake, Soulja Boy, Nicky Minaj

whack- 2 Sicc & Mista E

[Kris P Lettus]

Just saw you were one year old when it came out so how could you know all that.. Better question, since you don't know, why are you trying to argue otherwise??

[Savio]

READ MY FUCKING POSTS I KNOW IT WAS RELEASED IN 1988

Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988
Krispy, NWA's "Straight Outta Compton" was released in 1988

Get it?

-------------------

Secondly so blogger wrote that, Oh but the internet "stated" it so it must be true..

[The Naitch]

old school- beginning-1994

new old school- 1995-2000

new school- 2000-2009

the future- 2009-present

[Savio]

....and that is just ONE Gangsta rap album that reached success. Gangsta rap did not really take off until the 90s. Same EXACT thing with Grunge music sure it was around before the 90s but it realllly took off in the 90s.

[The Naitch]

okay to end the debate, as for

old school Gangsta rap- NWA (Dre as part of a group)

new old school Gangsta rap- The Chronic (Dre as a solo artist)

[Kris P Lettus]

....and that is just ONE Gangsta rap album that reached success. Gangsta rap did not really take off until the 90s. Same EXACT thing with Grunge music sure it was around before the 90s but it realllly took off in the 90s.

It took off when the album that "opened the door" for gansta rap went platinum and was a mainstream success..

[Kris P Lettus]

Which was in 1988..

The time period you are referring to is the renaissance.. When every single album of every single kind of hip hop was awesome..

East coast-illmatic, ready to die, 36 chambers, reasonable doubt, the infamous, etc

West cost-the chron, doggystyle, 2paclypse, etc

Dirty south-southernplayalistic, soul food, the diary, mystic styles, tru, riding dirty, on top of the world, etc

[Indifferent Clox]

I really consider anything pre biggie and tupac's murders to be old school

[Kris P Lettus]

I agree..

[FakeLaser]

The Pharcyde - Bizarre Ride II the Pharcyde

[Savio]

I really consider anything pre biggie and tupac's murders to be old school
I don't, I consider Kurtis Blow and etc Old school.

[Kris P Lettus]

I don't, I consider Kurtis Blow and etc Old school.

That's great but when is your cut off??

[Savio]

It is hard to choose a cut off date but when gangsta rap came in there was a transition eliminating old school hip-hop.

[Kris P Lettus]

Public Enemy-Fear of a Black Planet
Beastie Boys-Paul's Boutique
MC Hammer-Please Hammer Don't Hurt Em (which had "Can't Touch This)
Slick Rick-The Adventures of Slick Rick (fist solo album)
De La Soul-3 Feet High and Rising (first album)
Tribe Called Quest-People's Instinctive Travels and Paths of Rhythem (first album)
Digital Underground-Sex Packets (first album)
Vanilla Ice-To the Extreme

Which of these albums weren't "old skool"??