Benoit had Frontal Lobe Syndrome

[Shaggy]

Source: PWTorch

In a story that could change the whole view of the Benoit tragedy, Chris Benoit's father will be doing several media appearances offering some shocking new information.

Michael Benoit claims that Chris Benoit had some Neurological scans of his brain, which have revealed he had post concussion syndrome and a condition called Frontal Lobe Syndrome.

Frontal Lobe Syndrome causes emotional and social withdrawal, outbursts of rage and violent behavior.

If this is confirmed it partially reliefs Benoit of his crimes, because in essence he had brain damage. This would also put part of the blame on the wrestling schedule as these disorders are attributed to repeated blows to the head.

We'll follow this story closely and get word on Michael Benoit's TV appearances.

[Ben Rodrigues]

So does this mean he's going into the Hall of Fame now?

[KingofOldSchool]

It means we probably won't see chair shots anymore.

[The Fugitive]

I doubt it, but I do hope one day people will be able to separate Benoit the wrestler from Benoit the person.

[The Fugitive]

I doubt that as well, KOOS. Maybe they'll be more shots to the back/neck instead of the head.

[McLegend]

I hope there is less chair shots. I hate Chair shots right to the head that are unprotected. Like when HHH just killed Umaga this past week the shit was tough to watch.

[Loose Cannon]

I'm remember learning about this is Abnormal Pyschology. pretty scary stuff.

[McLegend]

The worst was when the Rock was banging on Mic Foley at Royal Rumble. Those were some of the most vicious chair shots i've ever seen.
Yeah those were disgusting, and there is absolutely no need for them.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Good news for the memory of Benoit if this is true....

Possible worse news for Vince.

[BigDaddyCool]

So he goes from murderer to brian damaged murderer? I honestly don't care how crazy, retarded, or brian damaged a person is, it is still murder.

[Loose Cannon]

Just got reported that Benoit also suffered from Dissociative Identity Disorder. They're saying At the time of the killings, Benoit was not himself, but a completely different person. Chris' father said that he like to watch shows like 24 and maybe he took them a little too seriously.

[Dave Youell]

Just got reported that Benoit also suffered from Dissociative Identity Disorder. They're saying At the time of the killings, Benoit was not himself, but a completely different person. Chris' father said that he like to watch shows like 24 and maybe he took them a little too seriously.
Did he play GTA as well? Because they would love some of this press before there next game comes out.

[IC Champion]

Just got reported that Benoit also suffered from Dissociative Identity Disorder. They're saying At the time of the killings, Benoit was not himself, but a completely different person. Chris' father said that he like to watch shows like 24 and maybe he took them a little too seriously.
Where did you read this?

[Shaggy]

Source ABCNews.com

ABC News is confirming that tests conducted by Julian Bailes of the Sports Legacy Institute show that Chris Benoit’s brain was severely damaged at the time he murdered his wife and son before taking his own life. According to the tests his brain resembled that of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient. Bailes said that the damage was the result of lifetime chronic concussions and head trauma.

Chris Benoit was famous for his flying headbutt, which is a lot of stress on the brain each time the maneuver is pulled off. While nothing can justify his actions, this at least helps the coping process.

[Loose Cannon]

holy shit.

[RP]

Source ABCNews.com

ABC News is confirming that tests conducted by Julian Bailes of the Sports Legacy Institute show that Chris Benoit’s brain was severely damaged at the time he murdered his wife and son before taking his own life. According to the tests his brain resembled that of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient. Bailes said that the damage was the result of lifetime chronic concussions and head trauma.

Chris Benoit was famous for his flying headbutt, which is a lot of stress on the brain each time the maneuver is pulled off. While nothing can justify his actions, this at least helps the coping process.


I disagree. I think it justifies the actions, but not the deaths. I mean, if this is the case, he probably never even realized what he was doing until it was done. Then he killed himself. I think WWE needs to address this on live TV.

[RP]

It would probably also explain the bibles. The remorse he felt.

[BigDaddyCool]

Source ABCNews.com

ABC News is confirming that tests conducted by Julian Bailes of the Sports Legacy Institute show that Chris Benoit’s brain was severely damaged at the time he murdered his wife and son before taking his own life. According to the tests his brain resembled that of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient. Bailes said that the damage was the result of lifetime chronic concussions and head trauma.

Chris Benoit was famous for his flying headbutt, which is a lot of stress on the brain each time the maneuver is pulled off. While nothing can justify his actions, this at least helps the coping process.

So, if I'm reading this right, jumping off a 5 foot turnbuckle to land on your head is bad and can damage your brain? And it can possibly lead you to kill yourself and family. I still fail to see how this is anyone's fault but Benoit's.

[RP]

Just got reported that Benoit also suffered from Dissociative Identity Disorder. They're saying At the time of the killings, Benoit was not himself, but a completely different person. Chris' father said that he like to watch shows like 24 and maybe he took them a little too seriously.


DAMN THAT JACK BAUER

[RP]

So, if I'm reading this right, jumping off a 5 foot turnbuckle to land on your head is bad and can damage your brain? And it can possibly lead you to kill yourself and family. I still fail to see how this is anyone's fault but Benoit's.


Without the proper knowledge or tests for the condition, Chris, his family, and WWE probably had know clue it was a possibility.

[Loose Cannon]

So, if I'm reading this right, jumping off a 5 foot turnbuckle to land on your head is bad and can damage your brain? And it can possibly lead you to kill yourself and family. I still fail to see how this is anyone's fault but Benoit's.

well yea. do that for 20 years and god knows how many times a year? The human brain is not a rock. (well for some people here, I think it is) It slowly deteriorate over time even without hitting your head day in and day out. Just imagine how faster the process is when you are.

I know it's hard to grasp the concept of mental disorders and how they could even cause things like that. But if you really read about and study it, you'll see what can happen. It goes back to that classic Phineous Gage case.

Not saying it's 100% to blame, but can certainly see how it would have played a part.

[Loose Cannon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

here, for people who want to read more about that case.

[6to1]

So, if I'm reading this right, jumping off a 5 foot turnbuckle to land on your head is bad and can damage your brain? And it can possibly lead you to kill yourself and family. I still fail to see how this is anyone's fault but Benoit's.
i saw matches where he jumped off the top of the cage and landed near his head

[Loose Cannon]

no way.

[dablackguy]

So, if I'm reading this right, jumping off a 5 foot turnbuckle to land on your head is bad and can damage your brain? And it can possibly lead you to kill yourself and family. I still fail to see how this is anyone's fault but Benoit's.


Take your finger, and gently touch the front of your head.

You're killing brain cells. That's how sensitive it is

[6to1]

yea i think it was back in his wcw days i am suprised he lasted as long as he did after watching hif jump off the top of the cage and land on another wrestler.

[RP]

The human brain is not a rock. (well for some people here, I think it is)


:shifty:











:cool:

[Rob]

WWE needs to impliment brain scans on a 6 month basis.

[Theo Dious]

Take your finger, and gently touch the front of your head.

You're killing brain cells. That's how sensitive it is

Son of a bitch. We need to go to non-contact wrestling IMMEDIATELY!!!
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Cena can teach the rest of the roster, he barely ever touches his opponents anyways. :shifty:

[Mr. Nerfect]

So, if I'm reading this right, jumping off a 5 foot turnbuckle to land on your head is bad and can damage your brain? And it can possibly lead you to kill yourself and family. I still fail to see how this is anyone's fault but Benoit's.

Read up on that Phineas Gage case that was posted. It's not just that your head hurts a little, you lose control over who you are, and what you do. It's not like Chris Benoit woke up and said "My head hurts, today I am going to murder my family." He might not have even realized he killed them until after the fact, hence the bibles and seeming state of confusion Benoit was in.

This might take some pressure off the steroid thing, unfortunately, but now the business itself, at its very core, is under question. Chris Benoit literally gave so much of himself to the industry, it killed him.

[The One]

So...what...Steroids hits Benoit in the head?

[IC Champion]

Read up on that Phineas Gage case that was posted. It's not just that your head hurts a little, you lose control over who you are, and what you do. It's not like Chris Benoit woke up and said "My head hurts, today I am going to murder my family." He might not have even realized he killed them until after the fact, hence the bibles and seeming state of confusion Benoit was in.

This might take some pressure off the steroid thing, unfortunately, but now the business itself, at its very core, is under question. Chris Benoit literally gave so much of himself to the industry, it killed him.

Maybe he should have took some time off, or treated his concussions instead of just continuing to wrestle because it's your life, and it's what you live for.

Concussions are serious business, and every year someone in a pro sport has their career ended from just a couple concussions. And anyone knows that undiagnosed or untreated concussions have serious consuquences, such as insanity, or depression.

So again, I fail to see how this is anyone's fault other than Benoit himself.

[BigDaddyCool]

OMG, you all are such retarded assholes. I was being sarcastic. I know for a fact that jumping of a turn buckle and landing on your head is bad for you. My point is I don't need a medical study to tell me that is bad for the human brain, and by that logic, neither should anyone else. It is fairly common sence land on your head = hurting your brain. Therefore Chris Benoit should have known that jumping off a turn buckle and landing on his head 300 days of the year is going to lead to something bad, yet he did it anyways. No one ever came up to Benoit and told him that if he had to do the diving head butt. He did it to himself. Benoit made his own brain into mush, then killed his family and hung himself. He may not have known any better at the time, but he put it all in motion himself.

If a drunk driver runs over someone, then it is still their fault. I see very little different between killing your brain with alcohol and getting behind the wheel of a car then hurting people in said car and this situation.

Benoit is not a saint. He is a foolish man that destroied his own brain. And because of that killed his family and himself.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Maybe he should have took some time off, or treated his concussions instead of just continuing to wrestle because it's your life, and it's what you live for.

Concussions are serious business, and every year someone in a pro sport has their career ended from just a couple concussions. And anyone knows that undiagnosed or untreated concussions have serious consuquences, such as insanity, or depression.

So again, I fail to see how this is anyone's fault other than Benoit himself.

I'm wondering if you actually believe this, or you're just sucking up to BDC. Please tell me it's the former, because it will be annoying as fuck if this is another reach around off the anal fuck.

Chris Benoit killed his family, but there is this thing called "diminished capacity." You probably know what those words mean, so stick them together and see what you get.

It is still Chris Benoit's "fault" in the sense that if he had stopped wrestling, it may not have happened, but Benoit was Benoit until fairly recently. I'm not sure how fast these things can set in, but I'd be willing to bet it was pretty fast. No one saw this coming. I certainly didn't. You didn't seem to. I certainly doubt that Chris Benoit ever had the thought "I better stop wrestling or else I may murder my family, roll around in my dog's feces and ruin my legacy." Should he have? I guess in retrospect, a narrow-minded person could fault him for not, but you can't really blame him for not knowing about the effects of the business when we didn't either. I'm fairly certain this is the precedent case for professional wrestling to this kind of extreme.

Benoit murdered his family, and that is something that has to eat at those close to Benoit everyday, and it ate the last breath out of Chris Benoit. Instead of placing blame, this is just one of those dark events that you wish had turned out differently. We all saw the shots Chris Benoit was taking, we were all aware of his schedule. So was Vince McMahon, everyone in the business and all those close to Benoit. No one did anything. While there has to be a level of self-monitoring, there needs to be some consciousness of those around you, as well. People who traveled with Chris Benoit didn't notice any difference, I really doubt Chris Benoit, who if he had noticed a difference, would have been screwed up, and hence not noticed the difference (there's a conundrum for ya) would have.

I could be completely wrong about this, though, but it has always been my understanding that you don't always know you are going to go crazy.

[IC Champion]

No, but if he had a concussion, I'm going to take a wild guess, and say he knew he did, I'm gonna say that before he went crazy, his head probably hurt alot, due to head aches, going back years even. Now I would just assume someone with a concussion in a contact sport of any kind would go see a doctor about this, and get a CAT scan. I'm guessing that he didn't. I'm guessing that his concussions went undiagnosed, I mean, your brain doesn't begin to resemble that of an 85 year old Alzheimer over night, this was something that happened over time. I'm going to have to say that he suffered from concussions and head aches for quiet sometime. And if you don't think someone can go crazy from concussions, do some research.

And, also had you been paying any attention at all Alienoid, you would know that some of his friends knew something was wrong with him, and that he wasn't normal.

[Mr. Nerfect]

OMG, you all are such retarded assholes. I was being sarcastic. I know for a fact that jumping of a turn buckle and landing on your head is bad for you. My point is I don't need a medical study to tell me that is bad for the human brain, and by that logic, neither should anyone else. It is fairly common sence land on your head = hurting your brain. Therefore Chris Benoit should have known that jumping off a turn buckle and landing on his head 300 days of the year is going to lead to something bad, yet he did it anyways. No one ever came up to Benoit and told him that if he had to do the diving head butt. He did it to himself. Benoit made his own brain into mush, then killed his family and hung himself. He may not have known any better at the time, but he put it all in motion himself.

If a drunk driver runs over someone, then it is still their fault. I see very little different between killing your brain with alcohol and getting behind the wheel of a car then hurting people in said car and this situation.

Benoit is not a saint. He is a foolish man that destroied his own brain. And because of that killed his family and himself.

So what you are saying is that all football players, boxers, contact sport players and physical laborors should expect to go crazy and murder their families? This is not something you plan for.

You want to know the difference between drink driving and brain damage? If you saw a drunk person trying to get into a car, you would stop them. No one stopped Chris Benoit. No one ever said "Chris, you may kill someone if you do this." It's a slight difference, but it is a difference.

No one is saying Chris Benoit is the greatest man who ever lived, and foolish is probably quite appropriate for him, just like it is foolish for anyone who gets into the business. That's what people are going to be saying, though, so you better get used to it: The media will turn this into "professional wrestling killed Benoit's family."

Everyone accepts Chris Benoit's part in the killings. He fucking did them. You're moving at a slower pace than everyone else, but that's OK. We are now talking about what outside causes played a part on it. Originally it was thought to be steroids, and now it is the business itself, and the natural injuries that occur with it.

As Loose Cannon said, it doesn't excuse Benoit. A sin is still a sin. If you're a spiritual person, then you really have to believe that Chris Benoit is rotting in Hell right now, unless God takes mercy on those who can't help themselves. It does remove the intent from the crime, though, and that is a fucking huge part of things. It was a sickening thought to image a competent Chris Benoit tying up his wife and then strangling her as she is defenseless, and then smothering his son out of cowardice, and then taking his own life so he doesn't have to face the consequences. That messed up the image of Chris Benoit as a person. Now he's a guy who should have stopped, but didn't realize he needed to, and not a single doctor, promoter, agent, fan, friend or family member spoke up. If Chris Benoit is guilty for what happened to his brain, then we were all, in ways, accomplices.

[BigDaddyCool]

I'm wondering if you actually believe this, or you're just sucking up to BDC. Please tell me it's the former, because it will be annoying as fuck if this is another reach around off the anal fuck.

Chris Benoit killed his family, but there is this thing called "diminished capacity." You probably know what those words mean, so stick them together and see what you get.

Why did Benoit's mental capacity diminsh? Wrestling...not just wrestling but head shots, many of which he did to himself? Benoit's fault.

It is still Chris Benoit's "fault" in the sense that if he had stopped wrestling, it may not have happened, but Benoit was Benoit until fairly recently. I'm not sure how fast these things can set in, but I'd be willing to bet it was pretty fast. No one saw this coming. I certainly didn't. You didn't seem to. I certainly doubt that Chris Benoit ever had the thought "I better stop wrestling or else I may murder my family, roll around in my dog's feces and ruin my legacy." Should he have? I guess in retrospect, a narrow-minded person could fault him for not, but you can't really blame him for not knowing about the effects of the business when we didn't either. I'm fairly certain this is the precedent case for professional wrestling to this kind of extreme.

Oh, you didn't see this coming from Benoit, that means a lot because you are just some mark, so naturally you know jackshit about him on a personal level. And there was a person who did see this come and she is dead now. Nancy Benoit reportedly asked Chris to take a lighter schedule and probably even hinted at him retiring. And yes I can fault him for not knowing something bad would happen by constantly hitting his head on opponets, the mat, and steel chairs. Now, it would be impossible to see this scenrio coming, but it there are a few dozen other equally sad and depressing things that could have easily seen scenrios.

Benoit murdered his family, and that is something that has to eat at those close to Benoit everyday, and it ate the last breath out of Chris Benoit. Instead of placing blame, this is just one of those dark events that you wish had turned out differently. We all saw the shots Chris Benoit was taking, we were all aware of his schedule. So was Vince McMahon, everyone in the business and all those close to Benoit. No one did anything. While there has to be a level of self-monitoring, there needs to be some consciousness of those around you, as well. People who traveled with Chris Benoit didn't notice any difference, I really doubt Chris Benoit, who if he had noticed a difference, would have been screwed up, and hence not noticed the difference (there's a conundrum for ya) would have.

No, this is Benoit's fault. Is it Vince MacMahon's personal responiciblity to go up to every superstar at every show and see if they want to work a lighter schedule? No. It is the superstar's resposibility to know what their body can and cannot physically take.

I could be completely wrong about this, though, but it has always been my understanding that you don't always know you are going to go crazy.

It doesn't matter, he still did it too himself.

[Pepsi Man]

So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?

[BigDaddyCool]

So what you are saying is that all football players, boxers, contact sport players and physical laborors should expect to go crazy and murder their families? This is not something you plan for.

I don't expect them to go crazy, but after so much, I don't expect much out of them. I do expect they will go brain dead.

You want to know the difference between drink driving and brain damage? If you saw a drunk person trying to get into a car, you would stop them. No one stopped Chris Benoit. No one ever said "Chris, you may kill someone if you do this." It's a slight difference, but it is a difference.

Nancy Benoit said something.

No one is saying Chris Benoit is the greatest man who ever lived, and foolish is probably quite appropriate for him, just like it is foolish for anyone who gets into the business. That's what people are going to be saying, though, so you better get used to it: The media will turn this into "professional wrestling killed Benoit's family."

Yeah, the media turns anything into ratings, big deal. It is still Benoit's fault.

Everyone accepts Chris Benoit's part in the killings. He fucking did them. You're moving at a slower pace than everyone else, but that's OK. We are now talking about what outside causes played a part on it. Originally it was thought to be steroids, and now it is the business itself, and the natural injuries that occur with it.

As Loose Cannon said, it doesn't excuse Benoit. A sin is still a sin. If you're a spiritual person, then you really have to believe that Chris Benoit is rotting in Hell right now, unless God takes mercy on those who can't help themselves. It does remove the intent from the crime, though, and that is a fucking huge part of things. It was a sickening thought to image a competent Chris Benoit tying up his wife and then strangling her as she is defenseless, and then smothering his son out of cowardice, and then taking his own life so he doesn't have to face the consequences. That messed up the image of Chris Benoit as a person. Now he's a guy who should have stopped, but didn't realize he needed to, and not a single doctor, promoter, agent, fan, friend or family member spoke up. If Chris Benoit is guilty for what happened to his brain, then we were all, in ways, accomplices.

Nancy spoke up.

[IC Champion]

Alienoid, you have out done youself, really bravo.

No one is responsible for what Benoit did, other than Benoit. How the fuck would I, or anyone else whio knew him or didn't would know he had concsussions? How was anyone to know that those untreated concussions, that no one other than maybe Nancy knew about, was going to cause him to go crazy?

[BigDaddyCool]

So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?

Was that aimed at me or Noid? I am blaming the person that sat down behind the wheel. I question the people who didn't try and stop them, but still it is the person that was behind the wheel's fault.

[Pepsi Man]

Was that aimed at me or Noid? I am blaming the person that sat down behind the wheel. I question the people who didn't try and stop them, but still it is the person that was behind the wheel's fault.
That was blamed at 'noid, since he seems to be removing blame from Benoit and is using that "no one tried to stop him". No one tries to stop every drunk person that tries to get behind the wheel, either, and they still take the blame.

[Loose Cannon]

There's really no point in going back and forth here. Benoit mudered 2 human beings. ok, that's settled. He's at fault for that.

But now there's an big issue here. Were these mental disorders a big part in his decision making process the night of the murders. If so, then the industry has a huge issue to take care of here. Benoit's case might just very well change a lot of things in wrestling.

[Mr. Nerfect]

No, but if he had a concussion, I'm going to take a wild guess, and say he knew he did, I'm gonna say that before he went crazy, his head probably hurt alot, due to head aches, going back years even. Now I would just assume someone with a concussion in a contact sport of any kind would go see a doctor about this, and get a CAT scan. I'm guessing that he didn't. I'm guessing that his concussions went undiagnosed, I mean, your brain doesn't begin to resemble that of an 85 year old Alzheimer over night, this was something that happened over time. I'm going to have to say that he suffered from concussions and head aches for quiet sometime. And if you don't think someone can go crazy from concussions, do some research.

And, also had you been paying any attention at all Alienoid, you would know that some of his friends knew something was wrong with him, and that he wasn't normal.

How many people in the WWE right now do you think have sore heads? It's a part of the business. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a business where you get banged up. Chris Benoit spent years in pain, which was what he expected, and in some ways wanted. It's what every wrestler is guilty of. If we're blaming people for the lead-in to these sorts of events, you might as well blame everyone wrestling right now.

I know concussions can do crazy things, but how do you feel knowing that I could come up, bonk you on the head with something, and then you'd go home and kill your family? You don't want to look at yourself that way. I really doubt Chris Benoit ever said "I should stop wrestling, I might go on a massacre soon." It really doesn't work like that. Every guy who steps out there takes the risk of a head injury, and they still do it. They should all be guilty of reckless endangerment then, not just Chris Benoit. I'm not smiling over this whole thing, but as I said, it's good that Chris Benoit didn't actively seek out to kill anyone, especially his wife and son.

As Rob said, the WWE should make brain scans compulsory, and they need to get on top of this thing and fix it. Why didn't they have brain scans before? Because, quite frankly, it was a risk that the industry did not see as relevant. Why should Chris Benoit if no one else does? As I said, there needs to be some responsibility for oneself, but no one really considered it a likelihood. How many discussions before Chris Benoit did anyone say "the WWE should have head scans so wrestlers don't hang themselves?" I can't recall one in my time as a fan.

I was not aware that there were reports of Chris Benoit acting unusual. When were these? I was only aware of the text messages sent on the weekend this all went down. But let's say people did know that Benoit was going insane...why are they not getting the blame? Isn't there some kind of responsibility Vince owes to his performers?

[IC Champion]

So by your logic, it was WWE's fault when Angle became addicted to pills, and went crazy? I mean it's part of the bussiness, and it helps him wrestle through it, which what is expeted of them. So really, Angle has the WWE to blame and not himself.

[Loose Cannon]

with steroids, pills, pain killers, whatever.....of course the blame goes on the guy taking them first hand. nobody is making him take them. well, some may argue that to an extent I guess.

However, if management knows this is going on and does nothing to stop he/she when there is a problem, then you have to point another finger at those people.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I agree with Loose Cannon. This is pretty much an argument based on political beliefs, so there's not too much point going back and forth. These are discussion boards, though.

For the record, because I know a lot of people here are stupid, I'm not saying that Benoit is not a killer. If he didn't kill himself, he should have been tried and convicted for manslaughter. That's all I'm saying it is, though...manslaughter. Still fucking awful, but in the law's eye, it is a step down. This is a good thing for those who wanted to remember Chris Benoit's career, without mashing it up with his personal life, because it means Chris Benoit was not a cold-blooded killer. A killer? Unfortunately for all involved, yes, but his crime was under diminished capacity.

What we are essentially arguing is whether there should be diminished capacity, and whether or not there should be layers in the law, which is politics, and pointless to get into here.

[IC Champion]

I know this, I was going by Alienoid logic.

[IC Champion]

I agree with Loose Cannon. This is pretty much an argument based on political beliefs, so there's not too much point going back and forth. These are discussion boards, though.

For the record, because I know a lot of people here are stupid, I'm not saying that Benoit is not a killer. If he didn't kill himself, he should have been tried and convicted for manslaughter. That's all I'm saying it is, though...manslaughter. Still fucking awful, but in the law's eye, it is a step down. This is a good thing for those who wanted to remember Chris Benoit's career, without mashing it up with his personal life, because it means Chris Benoit was not a cold-blooded killer. A killer? Unfortunately for all involved, yes, but his crime was under diminished capacity.

What we are essentially arguing is whether there should be diminished capacity, and whether or not there should be layers in the law, which is politics, and pointless to get into here.

Who is to blame for his diminished capacity??

[IC Champion]

Also, as for this being political, I'm a Liberal, so....

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Anyone comparing mental/orbital trauma to drunk driving is retarded.

A drunk knows that drinking and getting behind a wheel can hurt someone.

An athlete does not REASONABLY know that getting hit in the head will cause him to kill someone. IF this is true, then there is no way to know if Benoit KNEW the extent of the damage, or the possible effects of it.

Does this make it so it's not murder? NO. Does this possibly remove intent? YES. Does this possibly remove reasonably derived intent? YES.

Did Benoit murder someone? YES. Did he do it on purpose? Maybe, maybe not. Can you still blame Benoit for what happened? Sure. However, this possibly rules out that he did it in cold blood, and that he's some sort of monster.

[lort]

I remember at the time I said I wouldn't be surprised if repeated concussions to the same areas of his brain might have affected him. Though I'm surprised it has taken so long to get results.

I don't think it matters too much for Benoit, but for the industry itself it could change things - even if it just making it harder and harder for companies to insure their athletes.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Also, Alienoid, this wouldn't be manslaughter, it would still be murder. More likely than not, if this is true, he would have been found to have been insane.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Shit..... I'd hate to be related to Mark Briscoe...

[IC Champion]

Could it have been prevented had he simply gone to a doctor and had his head checked? Probably.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Could it have been prevented had he simply gone to a doctor and had his head checked? Probably.

Depends on when it would have been caught really. It's not like brain trauma can just be fixed. It's a game of "what ifs" at this point.

[Loose Cannon]

he had to have gone to the doctor though and had a Cat scan sometime. I don't see how any wrestler wouldn't do this on a quartely basis. If so, you've got to wonder what doctors told him and didn't tell him.

[IC Champion]

Depends on when it would have been caught really. It's not like brain trauma can just be fixed. It's a game of "what ifs" at this point.
No, but it can be treated, and he most likely would have retired, something that sounds like it should have been done 5 years ago.

[BigDaddyCool]

How many people in the WWE right now do you think have sore heads? It's a part of the business. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a business where you get banged up. Chris Benoit spent years in pain, which was what he expected, and in some ways wanted. It's what every wrestler is guilty of. If we're blaming people for the lead-in to these sorts of events, you might as well blame everyone wrestling right now.

I know concussions can do crazy things, but how do you feel knowing that I could come up, bonk you on the head with something, and then you'd go home and kill your family? You don't want to look at yourself that way. I really doubt Chris Benoit ever said "I should stop wrestling, I might go on a massacre soon." It really doesn't work like that. Every guy who steps out there takes the risk of a head injury, and they still do it. They should all be guilty of reckless endangerment then, not just Chris Benoit. I'm not smiling over this whole thing, but as I said, it's good that Chris Benoit didn't actively seek out to kill anyone, especially his wife and son.

As Rob said, the WWE should make brain scans compulsory, and they need to get on top of this thing and fix it. Why didn't they have brain scans before? Because, quite frankly, it was a risk that the industry did not see as relevant. Why should Chris Benoit if no one else does? As I said, there needs to be some responsibility for oneself, but no one really considered it a likelihood. How many discussions before Chris Benoit did anyone say "the WWE should have head scans so wrestlers don't hang themselves?" I can't recall one in my time as a fan.

I was not aware that there were reports of Chris Benoit acting unusual. When were these? I was only aware of the text messages sent on the weekend this all went down. But let's say people did know that Benoit was going insane...why are they not getting the blame? Isn't there some kind of responsibility Vince owes to his performers?

Why can't you accept that Benoit was a grown man making desisions to hurt his own head? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Chris start doing diving head butts way back in Japan? So, Benoit started wrestling what in 87? It is 2007 now, so for shits and giggles, he wrestled 20 years. Lets assume he wreslted 250 matches a year for the sake of arguement. Now I know some years he barely wrestled some years, and in his early years he probably worked 2 matches a day and more matches, but for the sake of argument, lets assume an average of 250 matches a year. And to my knowledge he did the diving head butt every match. For 250 matches (each with a diving head butt) for 20 years, that is 5000 diving head butts. That is 5000 more brain damaging head shots than your normal wrestler. And These are going to be far more taurmatic than other head shots as his head is dropping 11 feet to the canvis.

While hindsight is 20/20, if I was a wrestler, 1) I would never use a move where I drop myself on my head as a finisher, 2) if I did (hell even if I didn't) I would get a regular cat scan to make sure I'm not suffering to much brain damage. Because what is the point of making millions of dollars to retire to a nursing home.

So if you start looking at what Chris could have been doing for himself all along instead of just acting like this was an unforseeable tragidy, it starts to become pretty damning. It is Benoit's fault for dropping himself on his head. It is Benoit's fault for taking 'roids and pain killers. It is Benoit's fault for not trying to have a lighter schedule. And because he constantly choose to do nothing, it is all his fault his family is dead, and he hung himself.

[FourFifty]

Also, as for this being political, I'm a Liberal, so....

Can I buy some weed from you?

[What Would Kevin Do?]

No, but it can be treated, and he most likely would have retired, something that sounds like it should have been done 5 years ago.

Like LC said though, he should have had some sort of cat scan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Benoit was diagnosed with a concussion within the last 2 years ( I think when he was feuding with Booker T), meaning this should have given him CAT scans at some point there.

I think there are more people to blame then just Benoit. Like I said origionally, athletes don't expect to go crazy and kill someone because of a concussion. If Benoit was fine, and this did come on suddenly, it's hard to blame him for not having his head checked out if he didn't have any issues with it, or symptoms. Should doctors have done followups? Should WWE make people do followups? Maybe.

I'm not saying Benoit wasn't in the wrong. We'll never know 100% what happened. I'm just saying if this is true, I don't think Benoit is a cold blooded murderer, or someone who should be held 100% responsible for his actions. If this was true, and he was alive and it went to court, the courts would find it as insanity.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Why did Benoit's mental capacity diminsh? Wrestling...not just wrestling but head shots, many of which he did to himself? Benoit's fault.

Chris Benoit did take a lot of head bumps. That is his responsibility for getting into the business. He shares in some of that. Chris Jericho also hit Chris Benoit with a steel chair at the 2001 Royal Rumble, and I'm sure when he reads this news, he is going to feel like complete shit, as is anyone who ever hit Benoit in the head during one of their matches. Is it Benoit's fault? Of course it is.

Oh, you didn't see this coming from Benoit, that means a lot because you are just some mark, so naturally you know jackshit about him on a personal level. And there was a person who did see this come and she is dead now. Nancy Benoit reportedly asked Chris to take a lighter schedule and probably even hinted at him retiring. And yes I can fault him for not knowing something bad would happen by constantly hitting his head on opponets, the mat, and steel chairs. Now, it would be impossible to see this scenrio coming, but it there are a few dozen other equally sad and depressing things that could have easily seen scenrios.

I still fail to understand what Chris Benoit is guilty of in the prelude to these events that any other guy in the industry isn't. I'm not forgetting what Chris Benoit did, not at all, I'm just asking what Benoit did that Stone Cold Steve Austin didn't do, or Kevin Nash didn't do. There isn't a damn thing. The only difference between Chris Benoit and someone who didn't do what he unfortunately did, is that Benoit actually did it, and he's the first. Chris Benoit should be precedent from this sort of thing, and people should learn from it, and put measures in place to make sure it never happens again. Putting the blame solely on Benoit, personally, doesn't fix anything. There needs to be some indictment of the scenario surrounding it.

I'll touch on Nancy Benoit later.

As for me being a mark and not knowing Benoit personally, neither do you, so what makes you better qualified to comment on Chris Benoit's state of mind? And besides, my point is that as a mark, I may not know Chris Benoit personally, but I know what hitting your head repeatedly can do. I didn't make any protest against Benoit wrestling. Fuck, I didn't make a protest against wrestling, either. Rob has the right idea, in that from this point on, there need to be head scans.

No, this is Benoit's fault. Is it Vince MacMahon's personal responiciblity to go up to every superstar at every show and see if they want to work a lighter schedule? No. It is the superstar's resposibility to know what their body can and cannot physically take.

Um, hell fucking yes it is Vince's responsibility! Of course it is. If I'm running a school, I don't hire a pedophile as a teacher. Vince McMahon should have screenings in place to make sure that every single employee under him is sane, and if they are going to be taking chair shots to the head, are healthy enough to do so. Yes, someone should know how much they can physical take, but so should those in charge before they hire someone and instruct them to do something. Besides, this is not the business to say "Hey, um, I'm not feeling well today, can I go home?" Guys work with injuries all the time. I'm not saying that's right, but if anything, it makes Vince even more liable than what he normally would be. Chris Benoit didn't walk into the ring against Vince's knowledge, and hit himself over and over again with a steel chair, you know.

Now, onto what you've been saying about Nancy Benoit. For one, you are a mark, and don't know anything. I'm assuming that you read she spoke up from the reports that were circulating on the internet. These same reports said that Nancy Benoit wanted Chris Benoit to take some time off to help raise Daniel because she couldn't handle it. I don't see anything about worry for his health in there. I mean no disrespect to Nancy Benoit, may her soul rest in peace. She, herself, was a part of the business, so obviously didn't have a problem with Chris wrestling.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Why can't you accept that Benoit was a grown man making desisions to hurt his own head? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Chris start doing diving head butts way back in Japan? So, Benoit started wrestling what in 87? It is 2007 now, so for shits and giggles, he wrestled 20 years. Lets assume he wreslted 250 matches a year for the sake of arguement. Now I know some years he barely wrestled some years, and in his early years he probably worked 2 matches a day and more matches, but for the sake of argument, lets assume an average of 250 matches a year. And to my knowledge he did the diving head butt every match. For 250 matches (each with a diving head butt) for 20 years, that is 5000 diving head butts. That is 5000 more brain damaging head shots than your normal wrestler. And These are going to be far more taurmatic than other head shots as his head is dropping 11 feet to the canvis.

While hindsight is 20/20, if I was a wrestler, 1) I would never use a move where I drop myself on my head as a finisher, 2) if I did (hell even if I didn't) I would get a regular cat scan to make sure I'm not suffering to much brain damage. Because what is the point of making millions of dollars to retire to a nursing home.

So if you start looking at what Chris could have been doing for himself all along instead of just acting like this was an unforseeable tragidy, it starts to become pretty damning. It is Benoit's fault for dropping himself on his head. It is Benoit's fault for taking 'roids and pain killers. It is Benoit's fault for not trying to have a lighter schedule. And because he constantly choose to do nothing, it is all his fault his family is dead, and he hung himself.

For it to be his fault, if this is true, it would have to be proven that he had reasonable knowledge that his job, his being dropped on his head, etc, could lead to the death of his family at his hands.

The same thing could happen to a boxer, or a football player, or a basketball player, etc.

Hell, if someone gets into a car accident and gets a concussion, can they be blamed for actions that happen later due to that concussion? Or since they now know what can happen when they drive, if they drive anyway and get into another accident, that causes another concussion, can they be blamed for their actions later caused by that concussion?

[IC Champion]

Can I buy some weed from you?
What you need? Bout to smoke some of BC's finest.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Also, I'd say it's a split responsibility between the WWE and Benoit in regards to Benoit's health. I'm in no way saying the WWE is actually responsible for what happened. However, Benoit should be concerned about his own health and get checked up, but likewise, the WWE should be watching out for the best interest of it's employees.

[IC Champion]

I think the point we are both me and BDC making is that, while he isnt a calculated cold blooded killer we thought he was, he is still resonsible for his actions, and more importantly the actions that lead to, and caused this tradegy to happen.

[BigDaddyCool]

Alieniod...I know I'm a mark. Nancy Benoit had been concerned about Chris's health, I remember reading that. Also, her saying he needs to be home to help with Daniel could have been just something she was saying to get Chris out of the ring. It is hard to tell someone they need to quit the job they love, so she may have been using that as a way to hide what she really felt. But I can't say for sure as I am no her.

Also, I already commented above on how it is Benoit's fault, not Vince's.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I think the point we are both me and BDC making is that, while he isnt a calculated cold blooded killer we thought he was, he is still resonsible for his actions, and more importantly the actions that lead to, and caused this tradegy to happen.

I understand where you're coming from. Legally however, if this is true, he wouldn't be responsible for his actions. Likewise, it's hard to hold him accountable for the actions leading up to it if he had no reason to believe what it would cause later.

And you can't argue that a drunk may not know what drinking and getting behind the wheel of a car can do. What it comes down to is what an average person reasonablly knows. An average person knows drinking and driving can lead to killing someone. An average person does not know that an athletic career can directly lead to you killing someone.

[Mr. Nerfect]

So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?

Just to address your question, no I don't believe the people who stop a person from getting into a car should be the one's taking the blame. I mean that if you did see someone getting into a vehicle drunk, you would try to stop them, wouldn't you? You know, for the health and safety of them, and others? No one tried to stop Chris Benoit from the sounds of it. I'm not laying blame on anyone, rather trying to take it off them. I'm assuming that there were people close to Chris Benoit and that if they had seen him operating a vehicle drunk, they would have stopped him. If brain damage and drink driving can be compared (and they can't), and no one stopped Chris Benoit from "driving," surely they didn't know he was drinking.

My ideology behind it was that Chris Benoit is kind of precedent for these sort of things. No one expected Benoit to murder, it was not a foreseeable outcome. The results of drink driving are very foreseeable. Just throwing that out there.

But as WWKD, it is retarded to compare the two anyway, so I don't know why I bothered with this.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Alieniod...I know I'm a mark. Nancy Benoit had been concerned about Chris's health, I remember reading that. Also, her saying he needs to be home to help with Daniel could have been just something she was saying to get Chris out of the ring. It is hard to tell someone they need to quit the job they love, so she may have been using that as a way to hide what she really felt. But I can't say for sure as I am no her.

Also, I already commented above on how it is Benoit's fault, not Vince's.

This is where it gets really pointless to argue. For all we know, Nancy might have known that. That is just ifs and buts, and really can't be argued.

[IC Champion]

I give up.

[BigDaddyCool]

For it to be his fault, if this is true, it would have to be proven that he had reasonable knowledge that his job, his being dropped on his head, etc, could lead to the death of his family at his hands.

The same thing could happen to a boxer, or a football player, or a basketball player, etc.

Hell, if someone gets into a car accident and gets a concussion, can they be blamed for actions that happen later due to that concussion? Or since they now know what can happen when they drive, if they drive anyway and get into another accident, that causes another concussion, can they be blamed for their actions later caused by that concussion?

OMG, I'm not trying to prove that he knew he was going to kill his family. I am saying he willfully dropped himself on his head some 5000 more times than an average wrestler. And I'm willing to assume the average wrestler is going to take a lot more unprotected head shots than the average football player. And as such, Benoit should have known full well he was hurting his own brain and should have at least thought to keep track of that with cat scans. Who really gives a fuck if WWE wasn't making him keep track of that, he should have been doing it himself. If your job doesn't offer you health care wouldn't you go out and get it yourself?

Benoit was an adult capible of making adult desisions sometime before he killed everyone in a retarded rage or whatever it was. His lack of action before that lead to this tragedy. I am not saying he should have gotten a crystal ball to know he was going to do this. I'm saying that if he got a regular cat-scan, then all of this could have been prevented. But what do I know, I'm dumb. I give up. It is all Vince McMahon's fault for bashing Chris's brains in with steriods and tell chris to kill his family.

Dumb fucks.

[BigDaddyCool]

This is where it gets really pointless to argue. For all we know, Nancy might have known that. That is just ifs and buts, and really can't be argued.

I'm sorry, I think I even said that in the paragraph you just quoted.

Anyhow, it is Benoit's own fault.

[BigDaddyCool]

I understand where you're coming from. Legally however, if this is true, he wouldn't be responsible for his actions. Likewise, it's hard to hold him accountable for the actions leading up to it if he had no reason to believe what it would cause later.

And you can't argue that a drunk may not know what drinking and getting behind the wheel of a car can do. What it comes down to is what an average person reasonablly knows. An average person knows drinking and driving can lead to killing someone. An average person does not know that an athletic career can directly lead to you killing someone.

Ignorance doesn't not negate accountablility in any sence.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think the point we are both me and BDC making is that, while he isnt a calculated cold blooded killer we thought he was, he is still resonsible for his actions, and more importantly the actions that lead to, and caused this tradegy to happen.

WWKD said it way better than I can, so I'm going to direct you to his post.

From the few law classes I took, I learned how operative that "responsible" is in a legal sense. Is Benoit responsible for the actions that led up to this? Personally, I do not think so, to a point. As WWKD said, it's like driving and then getting in an accident. Perhaps you shouldn't have been driving, ay? I'd normally be very similar in my hypotheticals, but WWKD is on the ball, and it's 4:15 am over here. He deserves all the positive rep in the world.

The big finding of this report is that Chris Benoit may NOT be responsible for what happened at the time of the crime. Fuck what went before it for a second, when he killed his wife and son, he was not legally sane. It's a small relief, as he is still a killer, but he's not cold-bolded in this case, as we can all agree on.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I'm sorry, I think I even said that in the paragraph you just quoted.

Anyhow, it is Benoit's own fault.

I know it's what you said, I was just re-iterating because you were pulling shit out from nowhere. I could be true, but it could have been false, too. We don't know. The operative word in that is "we." As in neither of us, therefore it applies to both.

[IC Champion]

Oh so now we allow law, to determine what we as people beleive to be morally right and wrong, and what is "personal repsonsibility?

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Ignorance doesn't not negate accountablility in any sence.

I'll get to your other post in a minute, but i'd like to point out, if you read what I said above, yes it does. Legally, responsibility is derived from average, social, common knowledge. So legally, if the average person is ignorant of something, then yes, it can negate accountability.

[BigDaddyCool]

WWKD said it way better than I can, so I'm going to direct you to his post.

From the few law classes I took, I learned how operative that "responsible" is in a legal sense. Is Benoit responsible for the actions that led up to this? Personally, I do not think so, to a point. As WWKD said, it's like driving and then getting in an accident. Perhaps you shouldn't have been driving, ay? I'd normally be very similar in my hypotheticals, but WWKD is on the ball, and it's 4:15 am over here. He deserves all the positive rep in the world.

The big finding of this report is that Chris Benoit may NOT be responsible for what happened at the time of the crime. Fuck what went before it for a second, when he killed his wife and son, he was not legally sane. It's a small relief, as he is still a killer, but he's not cold-bolded in this case, as we can all agree on.

Yeah, he goes from cold blooded to a neglectful, ignorant, crazy killer, big relief their. Plus all his matches sucked.

[BigDaddyCool]

I'll get to your other post in a minute, but i'd like to point out, if you read what I said above, yes it does. Legally, responsibility is derived from average, social, common knowledge. So legally, if the average person is ignorant of something, then yes, it can negate accountability.

I meant ignorance of the law doesn't negate accountablility. And if you bash your own brains in to the point you don't know what you are doing any more, still makes you accountable. The same goes for going on a bad acid trip and killing someone during such a trip. Still accountable, even though you think you are killing the devil or something.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, the real point is I would never want me as the judge if I was going up for murder.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Ignorance doesn't not negate accountablility in any sence.

Now you're arguing morals and politics. While it would be great if everybody knew everything in the world, they don't, and you can't act like they do. As WWKD said, it was not expected Chris Benoit would murder. I can see why you would hold him responsible for participating in events where his head gets smashed over and over again, and then bad stuff happens, but you can't solely blame Benoit for that. If you're going to use ignorance to hang people, anyone who hit Chris Benoit is also guilty. The WWE would also be guilty for being ignorant of what their sport can cause.

I'm not saying everyone who has hit Benoit is accountable, or that Vince McMahon should go to jail, all I am saying is that there are gray areas with this sort of stuff. That's why in cases like these, you usually just go by the state of mind at the time of the event. In this case, it appears that Chris Benoit was not of sound mind. If you want to argue about who is responsible for Chris Benoit not being of sound mind, then you get a really messy palette. Chris Benoit himself is partially responsible, yes. He consented to the business. So is the business itself. It hit Chris Benoit just as hard as he hit it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Also, the real point is I would never want me as the judge if I was going up for murder.

:lol:

Good call, man.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

OMG, I'm not trying to prove that he knew he was going to kill his family. I am saying he willfully dropped himself on his head some 5000 more times than an average wrestler. And I'm willing to assume the average wrestler is going to take a lot more unprotected head shots than the average football player. And as such, Benoit should have known full well he was hurting his own brain and should have at least thought to keep track of that with cat scans. Who really gives a fuck if WWE wasn't making him keep track of that, he should have been doing it himself. If your job doesn't offer you health care wouldn't you go out and get it yourself?

Benoit was an adult capible of making adult desisions sometime before he killed everyone in a retarded rage or whatever it was. His lack of action before that lead to this tragedy. I am not saying he should have gotten a crystal ball to know he was going to do this. I'm saying that if he got a regular cat-scan, then all of this could have been prevented. But what do I know, I'm dumb. I give up. It is all Vince McMahon's fault for bashing Chris's brains in with steriods and tell chris to kill his family.

Dumb fucks.
If the dumb fuck comment was directed towards me, feel free to reread what I've already said.

I never once said this was Vince's fault. I AGREE that Benoit SHOULD have had himself checked out. YES, BENOIT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL HEALTH.

HOWEVER,

The WWE should take some responsibility to watch out for the well being of their employees. 100% responsible? Hell no. 50%? Probably not. However, they should either offer, or require, some sort of annual checkup. WWE should be concerned for the health of its employees. They care about whether they're on drugs supposedly, so why not care about their general health as well in regards to how their occupation affects it.

So to sum it up since you very well could be scanning this. It's not Vince's job to see that their employees are healthy....It's the wrestler's job. However, as an employer, the WWE should be concerned with the health of it's employees.

[dablackguy]

Very Simply

ECW killed Chris Benoit. Just another man that would rather die than become ECW Champion.

Can't say that I disagree

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I meant ignorance of the law doesn't negate accountablility. And if you bash your own brains in to the point you don't know what you are doing any more, still makes you accountable. The same goes for going on a bad acid trip and killing someone during such a trip. Still accountable, even though you think you are killing the devil or something.

I know what you're saying, I really do. However, what this comes down to is mental trauma. In Benoit's situation, I can gurantee you, if the reports are true, he would be found GUILTY due to insanity, or guilty due to diminshed capacity. Either one of those rulings, while he's still guilty, would find him not accountable at the time of the crime.

BTW, those rulings differ in cases regarding things like drugs and alcohol. Having your head bashed however, despite willingly having it done, and then doing something while suffering trauma, would not be found accountable in court.

[Mr. Nerfect]

OMG, I'm not trying to prove that he knew he was going to kill his family. I am saying he willfully dropped himself on his head some 5000 more times than an average wrestler. And I'm willing to assume the average wrestler is going to take a lot more unprotected head shots than the average football player. And as such, Benoit should have known full well he was hurting his own brain and should have at least thought to keep track of that with cat scans. Who really gives a fuck if WWE wasn't making him keep track of that, he should have been doing it himself. If your job doesn't offer you health care wouldn't you go out and get it yourself?

Benoit was an adult capible of making adult desisions sometime before he killed everyone in a retarded rage or whatever it was. His lack of action before that lead to this tragedy. I am not saying he should have gotten a crystal ball to know he was going to do this. I'm saying that if he got a regular cat-scan, then all of this could have been prevented. But what do I know, I'm dumb. I give up. It is all Vince McMahon's fault for bashing Chris's brains in with steriods and tell chris to kill his family.

Dumb fucks.

As has been mentioned, do you have any evidence that Chris Benoit did not get CT scans? Someone recalled him actually going in for a concussion, so he would have been scanned then.

Could Chris Benoit have known his head was in worse shape than others? Maybe. I certainly wouldn't have guessed it. Kurt Angle takes a lot of head bumps, and Rey Mysterio has been around for ages. Neither of them has murdered their family. And as you said, it's an assumption that wrestler's take more damage to the head than professional wrestlers. I don't think you can really measure something like this in number, though, because something so little can cause so much damage. If you're head is in danger, it's in danger.

No one is blaming Vince McMahon solely for Chris Benoit's death. He just has something to learn from this. Give a shit about your employees' health. Get them checked and tested. Give them time off. As I have said numerous times, this is precedent. Everything is a lot harder the first time. From this point on, hopefully wrestlers get checked, and they look after themselves, because they know the extent of what can happen otherwise.

[BigDaddyCool]

If the dumb fuck comment was directed towards me, feel free to reread what I've already said.

I never once said this was Vince's fault. I AGREE that Benoit SHOULD have had himself checked out. YES, BENOIT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL HEALTH.

HOWEVER,

The WWE should take some responsibility to watch out for the well being of their employees. 100% responsible? Hell no. 50%? Probably not. However, they should either offer, or require, some sort of annual checkup. WWE should be concerned for the health of its employees. They care about whether they're on drugs supposedly, so why not care about their general health as well in regards to how their occupation affects it.

So to sum it up since you very well could be scanning this. It's not Vince's job to see that their employees are healthy....It's the wrestler's job. However, as an employer, the WWE should be concerned with the health of it's employees.

1) If you think the dumb fuck was aimed you, it may have been.

2) I never once said you said it was Vince's fault. But Alienoid sure was sound like it was everyone's fault but Benoit, and we all know Vince is an evil business man out of his and his alone.

3) Yeah, WWE should probably do something, then again American should have some sort of national health care...wait, Benoit's Canadian, it is Canada's fault now...wait no it isn't Canada has free health care, he has no excuse for not getting the check ups. Yes WWE should be concerned for their wrestlers. But it is ultimately the individauls repsoniciblity to take care of themselves and not go crazy and kill their family.

4) If I was merely scanning, then I wouldn't have a chance to find bad grammer and pick that apart too, just to further piss you off at my hypocracy when it comes to sentence structure and spelling.

[Dave Youell]

If the dumb fuck comment was directed towards me, feel free to reread what I've already said.

I never once said this was Vince's fault. I AGREE that Benoit SHOULD have had himself checked out. YES, BENOIT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL HEALTH.

HOWEVER,

The WWE should take some responsibility to watch out for the well being of their employees. 100% responsible? Hell no. 50%? Probably not. However, they should either offer, or require, some sort of annual checkup. WWE should be concerned for the health of its employees. They care about whether they're on drugs supposedly, so why not care about their general health as well in regards to how their occupation affects it.

So to sum it up since you very well could be scanning this. It's not Vince's job to see that their employees are healthy....It's the wrestler's job. However, as an employer, the WWE should be concerned with the health of it's employees.

They do have regular health checks, hence how they found out about MVP's dodgy heart, yes it's a knee jerk reaction to the Eddie thing, but at least they are doing something.

So find out about something in Benoit's case wouldn't of been done with an average physical, so unless they are handing out free catscans to the employees they are paying a pretty decent wage......

[What Would Kevin Do?]

ANYWHO.

I think I've argued from a legal standpoint enough. It doesn't really matter anyway, since Benoit will never appear in court ;) (unless Nancy's parents try to sue the estate).

In the end, personally, I think a lot of people dropped the ball. In the end, Benoit put his body through what he did on his own free will. While I question whether or not he intended to do what he did, I don't question that this COULD have been avoided. I think moving on the fact that this WASN'T avoided is going to be a bigger issue than the murders themselves.

[IC Champion]

Canada is a great Nation.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

1) If you think the dumb fuck was aimed you, it may have been.

2) I never once said you said it was Vince's fault. But Alienoid sure was sound like it was everyone's fault but Benoit, and we all know Vince is an evil business man out of his and his alone.

3) Yeah, WWE should probably do something, then again American should have some sort of national health care...wait, Benoit's Canadian, it is Canada's fault now...wait no it isn't Canada has free health care, he has no excuse for not getting the check ups. Yes WWE should be concerned for their wrestlers. But it is ultimately the individauls repsoniciblity to take care of themselves and not go crazy and kill their family.

4) If I was merely scanning, then I wouldn't have a chance to find bad grammer and pick that apart too, just to further piss you off at my hypocracy when it comes to sentence structure and spelling.

When you become a teacher, and I'm turning in a paper to you, I'll worry about my grammar. ;) Anyway, you can't piss me off by pointing out grammar and spelling. I usually just view it as a weak arguement that's made by someone who has no other point he can make.

Anywho, you never stated that I said it was Vince's fault, but you did make the sarcastic reply about people saying it's Vince's fault while quoting me. Just making a reasonable inference.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Canada is a great Nation. I concur. I mean, if you can produce a wife and child killing machine like Benoit, you should really import them to China. You could make a killing marketing it as population control.

[IC Champion]

Then what will fat unattrachtive woman in America do when they want kids?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Then what will fat unattrachtive woman in America do when they want kids?

With the population in check, China will become an even more efficient country, and produce robots to fornicate with fat women, and impregnate them.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Totally off topic, but man, America needs to get into fucking shape.

[Danny Electric]

I don't know about Benoit's financial status, I'm betting it was healthy but it is a shame that the profession that gave him and his family a lavish lifestyle would eventually lead to his downfall.

[Mr. Nerfect]

2) I never once said you said it was Vince's fault. But Alienoid sure was sound like it was everyone's fault but Benoit, and we all know Vince is an evil business man out of his and his alone.

Actually, I never once said it was Vince's fault. I just said he should be looking after the health of his employees. No one is saying that anyone but Chris Benoit is the killer. This just sheds new light on it, and decreses (in some form) the responsibility for the crime Chris Benoit committed. A lot of that has to do with the professional wrestling business taking a hit, which reflects on Vince.

As WWKD said, this will be more about why something was not done to prevent this. And no, that is not ENTIRELY Chris Benoit's responsibility.

Also, I just read another article, and it addressed the possibility of legal action Michael Benoit could take against the WWE. Benoit said he was thinking things through at this time, or something to the extent. But the media is certainly out for Vince's blood, and Michael Benoit does not seem to disgusted by the idea.

[RGWhat316]

This does help me some. Not that I was in complete denial, but I wanted to believe that something that happened to Chris caused what happened that terrible weekend. From all the reports I heard and read, almost everyone who knew him, knew that he would never do anything like what happened. That is why I figured that something happened to him, to cause him to snap. But, if the head trauma really caused this to happen, then things will definitely change in wrestling as we know it. I also knew that steroids were not as much of a factor as the media was saying they were.

[BigDaddyCool]

Anyhow, I guess I'm going to have to adress the white elephant in the room everyone else is pretending isn't there. You are all just jealous because the Kliq is still alive and holding people down, while all the good guys are going crazy and killing their family, if not just dropping dead. Get over it, the Kliq is better.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Totally off topic, but man, America needs to get into fucking shape.

I learned a statistic from Conan O'Brien that put the percentage of obese people in a particular state (I think it was Mississippi) at 30%.

If only Chris Benoit were American. Then the rope would have snapped. Fuck that, he would have gotten winded during the first two minutes of his debut match, and quit right then and there, and then get some fries.

[IC Champion]

I learned a statistic from Conan O'Brien that put the percentage of obese people in a particular state (I think it was Mississippi) at 30%.

If only Chris Benoit were American. Then the rope would have snapped. Fuck that, he would have gotten winded during the first two minutes of his debut match, and quit right then and there, and then get some fries.
LOL.

[IC Champion]

We dont eat fries in Canada, we eat Poutine.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Or if he would have been a kliq member, he would have lost his smile, torn his quad, been a drunk, or just plain sucked enough to not be wrestling, and this would have never happened.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Anyhow, I guess I'm going to have to adress the white elephant in the room everyone else is pretending isn't there. You are all just jealous because the Kliq is still alive and holding people down, while all the good guys are going crazy and killing their family, if not just dropping dead. Get over it, the Kliq is better.

Kevin Nash would have gotten lazy during the murder of his wife, and instead of killing her, would just put the chord around her throat and then let go (Jackknife style) and then give his son a Finger Poke of Doom. His son would have had Fragile X, though, and would have squished around the finger of Nash, and then he would go to court and prove he is not guilty with charts. Nash would get charged with fleeing the scene, though, caught by police when he injures his quad taking a step away from them.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I think Vince should run an angle where Shawn goes crazy from all the concussions and assaults randon people, and early killing his family.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeah, sounds like some people are jealous because all their heros are dead. K4L

[IC Champion]

I think Vince should run an angle where Shawn goes crazy from all the concussions and assaults randon people, and early killing his family.
Wait....Didnt HBK take 4 years off in his prime, and only works 80 days a year now?

[BigDaddyCool]

Kevin Nash would have gotten lazy during the murder of his wife, and instead of killing her, would just put the chord around her throat and then let go (Jackknife style) and then give his son a Finger Poke of Doom. His son would have had Fragile X, though, and would have squished around the finger of Nash, and then he would go to court and prove he is not guilty with charts. Nash would get charged with fleeing the scene, though, caught by police when he injures his quad taking a step away from them.

Wait...did I read that right, Fragile X gives you mutant powers of being able to turn you body liquid at will so you can squish around the dreaded finger poke of doom.

[Kane Knight]

As Loose Cannon said, it doesn't excuse Benoit. A sin is still a sin. If you're a spiritual person, then you really have to believe that Chris Benoit is rotting in Hell right now, unless God takes mercy on those who can't help themselves. It does remove the intent from the crime, though, and that is a fucking huge part of things. It was a sickening thought to image a competent Chris Benoit tying up his wife and then strangling her as she is defenseless, and then smothering his son out of cowardice, and then taking his own life so he doesn't have to face the consequences. That messed up the image of Chris Benoit as a person. Now he's a guy who should have stopped, but didn't realize he needed to, and not a single doctor, promoter, agent, fan, friend or family member spoke up. If Chris Benoit is guilty for what happened to his brain, then we were all, in ways, accomplices.
Most theologists would argue that acts commited by someone who was insane would not be held against them by God. As such, I'm a bit confused as to why you'd bring it up. The people who believe otherwise tend to not believe in mental illness and dismiss it anyway.

Then again, that seems to be the wrestling fanbase in a nutshell. Benoit did something horrible, yes, but he was most certainly sick. The Vicdin alone could have done that, as well as a couple other popular painkillers in sports. They don't warn you about that. In fact, there's no warning of correlation, except health professionals have started reporting it as a serious, and sadly common side effect.

What's funnier is the number of people who grieved for Eddie, a drug addict who chose to destroy his body. Drug addiction isn't even a real disease, it's a symptom of a weak will. Now we're hearing "Benoit decided to concuss himself...Fuck him." People complain that the One says he'll celebrate the death of Hogan, a man who has clearly played with his life. Owen Hart? We grieved, though nobody FORCED him up there or pushed him off.

If Benoit deserved what he got, so did Eddie and Owen and just about every other wrestler to have died, been injured or crippled, etc.

-EDIT- Whoops, fucked up and was replying in two windows. I'l stitch in the rest:

This might take some pressure off the steroid thing, unfortunately, but now the business itself, at its very core, is under question. Chris Benoit literally gave so much of himself to the industry, it killed him.

First let me point out I glossed over after a certain point. Too much back and forth.

Anyway, Steroids were, at the very least a contributing factor.

Could it have been prevented had he simply gone to a doctor and had his head checked? Probably.

Overly simplistic. Since this is the course of multiple concussions, not a single injury, and not every concussion readily is obvious in a sport where people work through injuries. They're not readily obvious period, a lot of the time.

I agree with Loose Cannon. This is pretty much an argument based on political beliefs, so there's not too much point going back and forth. These are discussion boards, though.

For the record, because I know a lot of people here are stupid, I'm not saying that Benoit is not a killer. If he didn't kill himself, he should have been tried and convicted for manslaughter. That's all I'm saying it is, though...manslaughter. Still fucking awful, but in the law's eye, it is a step down. This is a good thing for those who wanted to remember Chris Benoit's career, without mashing it up with his personal life, because it means Chris Benoit was not a cold-blooded killer. A killer? Unfortunately for all involved, yes, but his crime was under diminished capacity.

What we are essentially arguing is whether there should be diminished capacity, and whether or not there should be layers in the law, which is politics, and pointless to get into here.

He should have, and would have been tried for murder. The extreme malice in the killings could likely get him the strongest murder charges. Beyond that, being insane is a defense, not a means to trial itself. If he wasn't in his mind at the time, that would be a defensive statement.

No, but if he had a concussion, I'm going to take a wild guess, and say he knew he did, I'm gonna say that before he went crazy, his head probably hurt alot, due to head aches, going back years even. Now I would just assume someone with a concussion in a contact sport of any kind would go see a doctor about this, and get a CAT scan. I'm guessing that he didn't. I'm guessing that his concussions went undiagnosed, I mean, your brain doesn't begin to resemble that of an 85 year old Alzheimer over night, this was something that happened over time. I'm going to have to say that he suffered from concussions and head aches for quiet sometime. And if you don't think someone can go crazy from concussions, do some research.

And, also had you been paying any attention at all Alienoid, you would know that some of his friends knew something was wrong with him, and that he wasn't normal.

Yes. Something happened over time. Damage can accrue in subtle ways.

Maybe he should have took some time off, or treated his concussions instead of just continuing to wrestle because it's your life, and it's what you live for.

Concussions are serious business, and every year someone in a pro sport has their career ended from just a couple concussions. And anyone knows that undiagnosed or untreated concussions have serious consuquences, such as insanity, or depression.

So again, I fail to see how this is anyone's fault other than Benoit himself.

Do you always know all the outcomes of the things you participate in? I'm just curious. And I'm not saying "Benoit didn't do it" or "It wasn't his fault," But we're talking mental illness.

[BigDaddyCool]

I would like to point out that KK didn't argue anything I said, therefore he must agree with it. So that means I'm right. In your faces, everyone.

[IC Champion]

Was there a point to any of that, or just to let me and Alienoid know that we're both wrong?

[BigDaddyCool]

Was there a point to any of that, or just to let me and Alienoid know that we're both wrong?

And to let me know I'm right because he can't find fault or agrees.

[Ninti the Mad]

So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?


Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.

[Pepsi Man]

Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.
Bartenders and friends are not the same thing, and I would just like to say that I personally disagree with that anyway. Anyone legally allowed to drive in the first place should be educated on the results of drunk driving enough to be held responsible for letting themselves get into such a situation.

[Jura]

"The frontal lobe syndrome is said to be present when an individual who is previously capable of judgment and sustained application and organization of his life becomes aimless and improvident, and may lose tact, sensitivity, and self-control.
These patients may demonstrate a diminution of spontaneous activity, a lack of drive, an inability to plan ahead, a lack of concern, and possible bouts of restlessness and aimless, uncoordinated behavior."

That sounds like me! I think have FLS. I got hit in the head by a car backing into me when i was a child.

[Ninti the Mad]

Bartenders and friends are not the same thing, and I would just like to say that I personally disagree with that anyway. Anyone legally allowed to drive in the first place should be educated on the results of drunk driving enough to be held responsible for letting themselves get into such a situation.


There are still laws on it no matter how you look at it.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.

I'm assuming you mean the bar staff, not the patrons.

[Pepsi Man]

There are still laws on it no matter how you look at it.
Sure, there are laws, but random people/friends are still different from staff.

[Kane Knight]

Was there a point to any of that, or just to let me and Alienoid know that we're both wrong?

I'd say that pointing out the logical fallacies in both your cases was a point in and of itself. Unfortunately, you're a bit too baked to get that.

Or the point in chastising the IWC. I suppose the largest single point there was too obvious to notice.

Now, do you have a point, or are you just asking in order to deflect the number of counts upon which you were called?

BDC, I don't remember what you posted, except to blame Canadia.

On that, I agree. Stupid wrestling junkies.

[BigDaddyCool]

BDC, I don't remember what you posted, except to blame Canadia.

On that, I agree. Stupid wrestling junkies.

I did say that in jest. But I was arguing on the behalf of personal responsibility for actions and in-actions of an individual. Saying Benoit made the decision to take drugs and smash his own brain into much which eventually lead to killing his family and himself. While I'm not saying it was foreseeable, there were plenty of other negative outcomes that were foreseeable by taking such actions and not keep track of your own deteriorating body.

I also sad Benoit sucked in the ring, and everyone is jealous because the kliq is alive and holdin' suckers down.

[Kane Knight]

I did say that in jest. But I was arguing on the behalf of personal responsibility for actions and in-actions of an individual. Saying Benoit made the decision to take drugs and smash his own brain into much which eventually lead to killing his family and himself. While I'm not saying it was foreseeable, there were plenty of other negative outcomes that were foreseeable by taking such actions and not keep track of your own deteriorating body.

I also sad Benoit sucked in the ring, and everyone is jealous because the kliq is alive and holdin' suckers down.

Then you suck.

So he was putting his own body on the line. He was a big boy, and assumed risks which were presumably safe to his family. Worst case scenario, he ended up a vegetable or a heart attack. I'm all in favor of wrestlers assuming risks themselves. I'm actually pro drugs for the most part. Pro Extreme Sports and all that other gay ass shit.

But you yourself say this was likely unforseeable. It's unlikely he assumed risks for his family partidcularly, and it's unrealistic to act as though he did. That there were other negative outcomes that would have hurt him are not relevant.

Also, the Kliq sucks and Canadia sucks. Triple H tanks ratings, BDC can't walk without tearing something, it's a group with Waltman in it, and Shawn Michaels is the only one worth a fuck. As for Canadia, if not for Chris Jericho, the Kids in the Hall, and Moxy Früvous, I'd suggest bombing the place utnil it looked like a sub-zero Iraq.

[eazey]

You're cool with The Bahamas though?

[BigDaddyCool]

Then you suck.

So he was putting his own body on the line. He was a big boy, and assumed risks which were presumably safe to his family. Worst case scenario, he ended up a vegetable or a heart attack. I'm all in favor of wrestlers assuming risks themselves. I'm actually pro drugs for the most part. Pro Extreme Sports and all that other gay ass shit.

But you yourself say this was likely unforseeable. It's unlikely he assumed risks for his family partidcularly, and it's unrealistic to act as though he did. That there were other negative outcomes that would have hurt him are not relevant.

Also, the Kliq sucks and Canadia sucks. Triple H tanks ratings, BDC can't walk without tearing something, it's a group with Waltman in it, and Shawn Michaels is the only one worth a fuck. As for Canadia, if not for Chris Jericho, the Kids in the Hall, and Moxy Früvous, I'd suggest bombing the place utnil it looked like a sub-zero Iraq.

Yeah, we he assumed wrong. I'm just saying that if he went in for a brain scan or whatever they are, the could have caught that he had brain damage and could have acted.

Also, I don't know this Moxy Fruitbat you speak of, Kids in the Halls is done making funny things, and Jericho can easily be moved to the states and we can then proceed with the bombing of canananananda.

[IC Champion]

You're a logical fallacies

[KingofOldSchool]

Can we make sure Neil Young doesn't live in Canada anymore first?

[IC Champion]

Canada is truly great nation.

[KingofOldSchool]

Eh?

[BigDaddyCool]

Can we make sure Neil Young doesn't live in Canada anymore first?

No. In fact we need to make sure he still lives in Canada. We need to avenge Skynard.

[IC Champion]

What did he do to Skynard?

[BigDaddyCool]

What did he do to Skynard?

Your mom, that is what he did.

[KingofOldSchool]

Actually there isn't any bad blood between Skynard and Neil.

[BigDaddyCool]

Actually there isn't any bad blood between Skynard and Neil.

Meh, still don't like him.

[BigDaddyCool]

Hahaha, Larry King said I was right!