Triple H vs Shawn Michaels

[Jordan]

I am interested in comparing the two. As wrestlers, their backstage pull, and their drawing power.

I think through the past HBK has probably drawn more than Triple H, he was the biggest draw in 1996 and 97 and has continued to draw even higher, being in the main event of the most bought WWE PPV of all time, Wrestlemania 23.

However, I think Triple H has drawn decently in his day, and maybe for a longer time. But he did sink the ratings for Raw to a very low point earlier this decade.

As a wrestler no doubt HBK is better in my mind. Triple H has been amazing before but now he usually is average to really good.

As far as backstage pull goes, I really don't know. Of course Triple H is married to Stephanie, but HBK has to have a huge word on everything he does, as does Triple H though.

So lets hear your comparisons.

[The MAC]

I sometimes think vince gives too much power to wrestlers backstage

[Avenger]

HBK was the biggest draw during WWE's worst drawing period.

HHH was one of the 4 biggest draws during wrestling's biggest boom.

HBK is my all-time fav wrestler but he was never as big a draw as HHH.

[mrslackalack]

True, but its nowhere as bad as it was in WCW.

[IC Champion]

HBK was the biggest draw during WWE's worst drawing period.

HHH was one of the 4 biggest draws during wrestling's biggest boom.

HBK is my all-time fav wrestler but he was never as big a draw as HHH.


HHH had nothing to do with with wrestling biggest boom, he was just fortune it enough to have been put over by the biggest draws of his time, Stone Cold, Rock, Mick Foley... If it wasn't for them, no one would give a fuck who HHH is.

[The Naitch]

HBK > HHH

[Kane Knight]

HHH used to tank Raw Ratings. Seriously, his QHs would drop remarkably.

Can we not pretend he was a draw? In all probability, PPVs succeded DESPITE him, not because of him.

So Michaels wins on two counts, being the better draw, and the better wrestler. Pull? Don't know. Probably HHH.

[Mercury Bullet]

HHH had nothing to do with with wrestling biggest boom, he was just fortune it enough to have been put over by the biggest draws of his time, Stone Cold, Rock, Mick Foley... If it wasn't for them, no one would give a fuck who HHH is.

My only disagreement with that is that for every great top tier performer, they need good/better than most 2nd tier performers on the card with them. Austin, Rock, Foley were all at the top during the "big boom", but their performances were all enhanced by a solid undercard, and solid 2nd tier workers (like Triple H).

I think that is one of the biggest things not present currently, that were there when wrestling was at its peak. All the solid upper lever but not top notch guys have now moved into the main event or have left. Triple H (though he was a little ahead of the time, and was main eventing by the end of the boom), Edge, Christian (in TNA), Kurt Angle (in TNA), Chris Jericho (not wrestling). Now, who is left in the undercard? Nobody. Nobody really solid with a ton of potential has stepped up to fill that void. The CLOSEST people that come to mind for me are MVP, Mr. Kennedy, and The Hardy's continue to teeter around that area of the card. But nowhere near the talent level of the boom area at all.

So, Triple H contributed to the boom of wreslting, but I would not call him a primary component. It's tough to weigh draw against each other as far as HBK vs. HHH. I mean, technicaly HHH has drawn more, but again that was as a part of the boom. HBK was the guy and was the single biggest star all by himself. So....I dunno how to weigh that out. I think I give the edge to HBK, because when you look at the time WWE tried to make HHH "the guy", wrestling came plummeting out of the highest rated era.

[Zen v.W.o.]

HBK was the biggest draw during WWE's worst drawing period.

HHH was one of the 4 biggest draws during wrestling's biggest boom.

HBK is my all-time fav wrestler but he was never as big a draw as HHH.


That's a BS answer tbh. It takes more credit to do what guys like Bret, HBK and Taker did carrying a company then it does for HHH to reap the rewards that a guy like Austin, and the rock, plus a product that was booming did for the time.

HHH was there at all the right times, and has done nothing but allow others to either get him over or give him the rub.

HBK got him known, got him pushed, and then Trips managed to stick around during a time the company was at it's peak, and that was thanks to Austin and smart booking. Had nothing to do with HHH, who got to coast off that wave that was alrready riding high. He then married the boss' daughter.

HHH has never been in the elite class, like Taker, Bret, HBK, Austin, Rock, Hogan, Piper, and possibly Savage were in...oh yeah, Andre too.

HHH has done everything and anything to try and get himself wedged in there, doing and saying the right things, being at the right place at the right time, but he's like Jarrett...has a big peice of the pie more through luck and some stroke than anything else.

[IC Champion]

I think I partially agree with Zen, I'm not sure if that was right or not.

[Zen v.W.o.]

I just think it takes a lot more credit to hold up a company that was trying to revive itself from the awful 93-95 years(some quality there, but not enough to matter) then it does to ride the wave of success that was already established.

In short.

[IC Champion]

I just think it takes a lot more credit to hold up a company that was trying to revive itself from the awful 93-95 years(some quality there, but not enough to matter) then it does to ride the wave of success that was already established.

In short.
Pretty much.

[Mercury Bullet]

^ Yeh I can pretty much agree to that too. Thats what factored into my decision.

[IC Champion]

plus, HBK > HHH, just in general.

[Zen v.W.o.]

JUst to further expound on my point before somebody decides to claim HBK didnt hold anything up, he brought the company down to the point it was at...no, no.

After stars that had been in the company for so long had all left in 92-93, guys like Hogan, Piper, Savage, Jake, Warrior, Dibiase etc....the company had to refreshen and restart with newer stars...that takes an adjustment period, and with Turner suddenly getting into the game, the wwf roster was depleted moreso, and they werent the only company able to sign any quality wrestler they could find. They had competition now, and less free flowing cash at their disposal. Back in the 80's Vince had and did have anybody he wanted to get. Not so any longer.

So now, he has a few top stars to work with, and he has to establish a bunch of others, most of which had less talent than what he had with him in the 80's. HBK, along with Bret and a few others, mostly Taker, were the usual main eventers...without them, can you imagine what that company would have drawn and/or sunk to? They held that company together until they adjusted accordingly, and started booking and being creative with the time period they were in. It took Vince forever to get rid of the clowns, plumbers etc....And that isnt HBK's fault or anybody else's that had to carry that company back then.

So no, HBK didnt sink the company, it was going to free fall no matter what for a while after everyone left it for wcw, and it was going to need certain guys to hold them afloat for as long as it took before they could get their paddles on the shoreline.

Everything goes down after a boom period. It happened in the mid 90's after what we saw throughoutt he 80's to early 90's...and it happened again NOW, after the attitude years had passed.

[Mooияakeя™]

I was never big on Michaels, never hated him or anything, but I loved the iron man match with Bret and the lead up to it. I'll never ever forget the zip-line entrance. It's jsut etched in my memory as wrestling fan as one of those moments you just know could only happen "then".

But also, when the Attitude era was going full steam, HHH had a great presence, I loved the fued with the main drawers Rock, Austin, HHH, Foley and even Taker around the time when Vince was doing anyting to stop Austin etc. and of course, my faveourite theme ever "My Time". HHH was just über around that time.

I personally think in terms of b/s pull, it's HHH, even if that may be based alone on Steph. He even managed to get his 11th title reign when there was really no need for it ffs. It would have been far better building up to it.

He WILL break Flairs "16 time, 16 time, 16 time" record cos he "can". I seriously do think he would never have got where he is without being with Steph. Agreed he's class, but it's good fortune too. But meh, he's also happy with her too!

I've always preferred HHH and always will me thinks. But I'd love to see HBK and HHH feuding at some point in the future.

[IC Champion]

16 Time world champ meant something in Flair's time, now it just says HHH wins a title whenever his waist starts to feel naked.

[Kane Knight]

He WILL break Flairs "16 time, 16 time, 16 time" record cos he "can". I seriously do think he would never have got where he is without being with Steph. Agreed he's class, but it's good fortune too. But meh, he's also happy with her too!

Mostly, it was who he knew. He was in with Vince already when he started in with Steph, and then there was Michaels and company.

Trips got where he is because he's Kliq, and Steph was icing that cemented him an even better future, but I think he would have gotten there with out. Vince puts a lot of faith in too many wrestlers who are not banging his daughter to really believe otherwise.

[The MAC]

"Triple H was always just an ass kisser"- Bret Hart

[St. Jimmy]

Why compare greatness to greatness?

[St. Jimmy]

"GurglegurglegurgleUsinfGurgle *Poop*" - Bret Hart after a Stroke.

[IC Champion]

Fuck You St. Jimmy.

[Zen v.W.o.]

"Triple H was always just an ass kisser"- Bret Hart

:y:

Pretty much. And due to this, he lacks both credibility and integrity. No pride reaching the top sucking a chain of dick.

[Kane Knight]

I gotta say, being on top is still being on top.

You can say there's no pride in it, but I doubt Trips gives a shit.

[The One]

Oh come off it you people. Now I agree with the general idea that Michaels is better than Hunter, but the way some of you talk about Triple H screams idiotic.

Shawn Michaels is the better performer, but that's really in large part due to Shawn Michaels being the best performer of all time.

Triple H has more backstage pull now, but either way, it's not like Shawn or Hunter have to do anything they don't want to do anyway...and haven't for some time.

Shawn Michaels was at his peak (96-98) a better stand alone draw than Hunter was at his peak (99-01)...but Hunter had a larger a better cast of characters to play opposite of, which is why ratings where better for his time on top.

Now that I got that out of the way I would like to take a moment here and really talk about how incredible Triple H is. Let's remember that this is a guy who was in line to finally get a main event push (admittedly due to him being in the Kliq) and then got shit upon by Vince in response to the Curtain Call. He took the wrath that should have been divided up into four and bared it all alone. He busted his ass and worked back into being in good graces with Vince again.

Also, let's talk for a second about the evolution of his career...blue blood to rebellious degenerate to merciless mastermind to bad ass good guy to the "Old Ric Flair" model to happy fun loving guy...and he made all those transitions seamlessly without ever really changing his "gimmick" or going away and then coming back as someone knew, he's just evolved into whatever was needed of him. That takes a special kind of performer.

And speaking of him as a performer, I defy any of you to name off all the people who are better than him in the ring. He's not the flashiest worker, but he's completely solid in everything he does. From normal matches to Iron Men to hardcore to ladder, he's done it all and been incredible with it. While Austin and Rock and to a lesser extent Foley (who by the way, I'd wage that Hunter was a bigger draw than Foley was, but whatever) were bringing in the fans, it was Hunter who was doing the matches with them. Rock has never, and I mean NEVER had better matches than the ones he had with Hunter. Hunter and Austin's feud was so fucking incredible, and no it didn't fare as well as Austin/McMahon, but than again nothing in the history of professional wrestling has ever even come close to Austin/McMahon...And Mick Foley...shoot, I'd take Hunter/Foley at the Rumble and No Way Out over any of Foley's other matches in his run with WWE.

Now everyone knows I praise Flair as god, plain and simple, but if there was ever anyone who came close to him, Hunter's as good of a choice as anyone. Will Triple H break Flair's record? Probably top 16, sure (even though Ric Flair held 22, two-two, World Titles, but whatever...). Is that so bad though? Over the past decade can you think of anyone who has been as solid and consistant a worker as Triple H? I honestly don't understand where all this loathing of him has come from lately. He's held a World Title for all of a couple of hours in the past 2 years and you all still bitch about him being a title hog or whatever. And for what it's worth, I don't think that him being married to Steph has anything to do with his stroke. It's more because he and Vince are best friends, if anything the fact that Vince's best friend is boning his only daughter might cause a little tension. Thought admittedly that doesn't seem to be the case at all...

The bottom line is Triple H is one of the best workers of all time. At his peak, I would submit that he was the best heel there has ever been. And inside the ring, it's a damn short list of people who are a better performer than him.

[IC Champion]

so, HBK > HHH

[IC Champion]

Also, HHH is overrated, especially by ToVo.

[IC Champion]

Also, I love you ToVo.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Oh come off it you people. Now I agree with the general idea that Michaels is better than Hunter, but the way some of you talk about Triple H screams idiotic.

Shawn Michaels is the better performer, but that's really in large part due to Shawn Michaels being the best performer of all time.

Triple H has more backstage pull now, but either way, it's not like Shawn or Hunter have to do anything they don't want to do anyway...and haven't for some time.

Shawn Michaels was at his peak (96-98) a better stand alone draw than Hunter was at his peak (99-01)...but Hunter had a larger a better cast of characters to play opposite of, which is why ratings where better for his time on top.

Now that I got that out of the way I would like to take a moment here and really talk about how incredible Triple H is. Let's remember that this is a guy who was in line to finally get a main event push (admittedly due to him being in the Kliq) and then got shit upon by Vince in response to the Curtain Call. He took the wrath that should have been divided up into four and bared it all alone. He busted his ass and worked back into being in good graces with Vince again.

Also, let's talk for a second about the evolution of his career...blue blood to rebellious degenerate to merciless mastermind to bad ass good guy to the "Old Ric Flair" model to happy fun loving guy...and he made all those transitions seamlessly without ever really changing his "gimmick" or going away and then coming back as someone knew, he's just evolved into whatever was needed of him. That takes a special kind of performer.

And speaking of him as a performer, I defy any of you to name off all the people who are better than him in the ring. He's not the flashiest worker, but he's completely solid in everything he does. From normal matches to Iron Men to hardcore to ladder, he's done it all and been incredible with it. While Austin and Rock and to a lesser extent Foley (who by the way, I'd wage that Hunter was a bigger draw than Foley was, but whatever) were bringing in the fans, it was Hunter who was doing the matches with them. Rock has never, and I mean NEVER had better matches than the ones he had with Hunter. Hunter and Austin's feud was so fucking incredible, and no it didn't fare as well as Austin/McMahon, but than again nothing in the history of professional wrestling has ever even come close to Austin/McMahon...And Mick Foley...shoot, I'd take Hunter/Foley at the Rumble and No Way Out over any of Foley's other matches in his run with WWE.

Now everyone knows I praise Flair as god, plain and simple, but if there was ever anyone who came close to him, Hunter's as good of a choice as anyone. Will Triple H break Flair's record? Probably top 16, sure (even though Ric Flair held 22, two-two, World Titles, but whatever...). Is that so bad though? Over the past decade can you think of anyone who has been as solid and consistant a worker as Triple H? I honestly don't understand where all this loathing of him has come from lately. He's held a World Title for all of a couple of hours in the past 2 years and you all still bitch about him being a title hog or whatever. And for what it's worth, I don't think that him being married to Steph has anything to do with his stroke. It's more because he and Vince are best friends, if anything the fact that Vince's best friend is boning his only daughter might cause a little tension. Thought admittedly that doesn't seem to be the case at all...

The bottom line is Triple H is one of the best workers of all time. At his peak, I would submit that he was the best heel there has ever been. And inside the ring, it's a damn short list of people who are a better performer than him.


I can name about 20 guys off the top of my head better than Hunter in the ring, and there's probably plenty more. All those matches you thought were great, well hey, Trips worked with better talent. When put in the ring with lesser talent, the match was never memorable. He doesnt CARRY guys like the greats in the ring do.

Furthermore, he isnt that great a character, because as a face, quite frankly, he sucks. He's had two face turns that bombed completely.
While with DX he was fine, but that's the entirety of DX and not of HHH alone.
Once seperated, he's not nearly as likeable.

The guy manages to latch for himself meaningless title reigns to somehow make it look like his reaching Flairs record means anything worthwile..he really needed that last one, eh?

As for being the best heel of all time? Not nearly. Guys like Piper, Flair, Dibiase, and probably Savage would have something to say about that.

Remember, Piper did more for wrestling as a heel than HHH ever did for wrestling in his entire career. People despised him so much they fucking shot at him with guns, stabbed him three times and rioted numerous more times.

Piper made you HATE. HHH never exactly had enough steam behind him that he could make other wrestlers..not necessarily already establoished and over guys, bigger then they were, but the lesser guys that may have needed that rub from an uber heel....seem better. He didnt get you to embrace anyone more. Piper did.

That's a heel, The One.

HHH is a fine heel, he isnt without his good points. Ranks up there. But you've got a massive hardon for the man, and it's clouding your judgment. HHH really isnt anything more than what you said, but solid. And that IS at his PEAK. Not at his peak, and he's less than solid.

[Kane Knight]

I picture TOVO sitting there typing that with his smark hardon.

[Mooияakeя™]

I agree with many things being said in here.

And btw, I never once said I "loathed" HHH when I mentioned him beating Flair's 16-time (nay, 22 time - see I keep u happy!) title reigns. - So if that was meant at me, pah. i never said owt. I like HHH. No beef with him at all.

[Johnny Vegas]

Damn, zen did that A-bomb thing that the U.S. a while back...

Anyway, as far as JV's take:

HHH is good, but i cannot get behind someone who has the PULL to pretty much do what he wants, and has for quite some time.

Yes, The One, he had to pay his dues because of the Curtain Call. There are PLENTY of wrestlers that have had to pay due for hardly ANY reason(s) (Jericho, RVD, just to name a few) and still have yet to reach the status HHH has gained. And they were, if not, more over than he was IN HIS PRIME.

He is not the only guy in the business to do what he is doing, hell look at Hogan. But what Hogan has done for that company, and wrestling in general, is something HHH only dreams of doing. Hogan may have had some great opponents as well, but he was so over that you HAD to keep the title on him, for fear of fan backlash. HHH was NEVER that over, and tries too hard to get to that point. He needs to realize that we are in a day and age where fans know waaaay more about what goes on behind those curtains that Hogan, Flair, and others had to deal with. That is the ONLY type of excuse i will give him. But we knew about this when Rock, Austin, Foley, and such were around, so he can only use that excuse to a certain extent.

HHH fucked up when he started listening to HBK about how to get to the top. He got the good DX rub, that is fine. Austin got his from Hart, Rock got his from....you know what, The Rock was destined. But when you BURY ppl in the process, time after time, after time, after time, you will get NO respect. And that is what happened. Jericho (god, it still makes me mad to this day), RVD, Booker T, Carlito AND Umaga, and more.

When you bury ppl to TRY and get yourself to where Flair, Hogan, Rock, Austin, and others were in terms of popularity, then there is a problem. Hogan got away with it, yes. HBK got away with it, yes. But The Rock didn't, Austin didn't, Foley didn't, RVD didn't, Jericho didn't, Eddie didn't, Benoit didn't, Piper didn't. And WHY do these names end up on avatars, conversations, t-shirts, fan stories, etc?

Because the fans WANTED them there. If you force-feed, you WILL throw it back up. That is what happened to Goldberg, HHH, and i hate to say it, but they had better do something with Cena or he will be on that list.

Point: HHH was/is a good performer, HBK was/is a GREAT performer. Both will be inducted into the hall of fame. But with the amount of pull these guys had, you just can't thrust them up there with the greats. HBK more than likely, but not HHH.

[Kane Knight]

Damn, zen did that A-bomb thing that the U.S. a while back...

Anyway, as far as JV's take:

HHH is good, but i cannot get behind someone who has the PULL to pretty much do what he wants, and has for quite some time.

Yes, The One, he had to pay his dues because of the Curtain Call. There are PLENTY of wrestlers that have had to pay due for hardly ANY reason(s) (Jericho, RVD, just to name a few) and still have yet to reach the status HHH has gained. And they were, if not, more over than he was IN HIS PRIME.

He is not the only guy in the business to do what he is doing, hell look at Hogan. But what Hogan has done for that company, and wrestling in general, is something HHH only dreams of doing. Hogan may have had some great opponents as well, but he was so over that you HAD to keep the title on him, for fear of fan backlash. HHH was NEVER that over, and tries too hard to get to that point. He needs to realize that we are in a day and age where fans know waaaay more about what goes on behind those curtains that Hogan, Flair, and others had to deal with. That is the ONLY type of excuse i will give him. But we knew about this when Rock, Austin, Foley, and such were around, so he can only use that excuse to a certain extent.

HHH fucked up when he started listening to HBK about how to get to the top. He got the good DX rub, that is fine. Austin got his from Hart, Rock got his from....you know what, The Rock was destined. But when you BURY ppl in the process, time after time, after time, after time, you will get NO respect. And that is what happened. Jericho (god, it still makes me mad to this day), RVD, Booker T, Carlito AND Umaga, and more.

When you bury ppl to TRY and get yourself to where Flair, Hogan, Rock, Austin, and others were in terms of popularity, then there is a problem. Hogan got away with it, yes. HBK got away with it, yes. But The Rock didn't, Austin didn't, Foley didn't, RVD didn't, Jericho didn't, Eddie didn't, Benoit didn't, Piper didn't. And WHY do these names end up on avatars, conversations, t-shirts, fan stories, etc?

Because the fans WANTED them there. If you force-feed, you WILL throw it back up. That is what happened to Goldberg, HHH, and i hate to say it, but they had better do something with Cena or he will be on that list.

Point: HHH was/is a good performer, HBK was/is a GREAT performer. Both will be inducted into the hall of fame. But with the amount of pull these guys had, you just can't thrust them up there with the greats. HBK more than likely, but not HHH.

:y:

[Mr. Nerfect]

I can name about 20 guys off the top of my head better than Hunter in the ring, and there's probably plenty more. All those matches you thought were great, well hey, Trips worked with better talent. When put in the ring with lesser talent, the match was never memorable. He doesnt CARRY guys like the greats in the ring do.

Furthermore, he isnt that great a character, because as a face, quite frankly, he sucks. He's had two face turns that bombed completely.
While with DX he was fine, but that's the entirety of DX and not of HHH alone.
Once seperated, he's not nearly as likeable.

The guy manages to latch for himself meaningless title reigns to somehow make it look like his reaching Flairs record means anything worthwile..he really needed that last one, eh?

As for being the best heel of all time? Not nearly. Guys like Piper, Flair, Dibiase, and probably Savage would have something to say about that.

Remember, Piper did more for wrestling as a heel than HHH ever did for wrestling in his entire career. People despised him so much they fucking shot at him with guns, stabbed him three times and rioted numerous more times.

Piper made you HATE. HHH never exactly had enough steam behind him that he could make other wrestlers..not necessarily already establoished and over guys, bigger then they were, but the lesser guys that may have needed that rub from an uber heel....seem better. He didnt get you to embrace anyone more. Piper did.

That's a heel, The One.

HHH is a fine heel, he isnt without his good points. Ranks up there. But you've got a massive hardon for the man, and it's clouding your judgment. HHH really isnt anything more than what you said, but solid. And that IS at his PEAK. Not at his peak, and he's less than solid.

:y:

I agree 100%.

Triple H making flawless adjustments to his character? I might have missed it, but I can't imagine his swap from blue blood to degenerate being seamless. That might be due to the writing, but still. Also, Triple H sucks dick as a babyface.

In the ring, the guy does everything competently, but as Zen said, there are at least 20 guys off the top of my head I can name as being better.

Johnny Vegas got it right, as well. As "great" as Triple H may be in the ring, he has no reason to bury everyone in his path. He's certainly not that good, and I hope it comes back to bite the WWE in the ass. Also, KK has proven that the guy was not a draw.

[IC Champion]

:y:

[The Ayatollah]

Ok so, just as background here, I like Hunter, I like HBK, and I like Piper.

But to claim that Piper is a better heel than Hunter simply because he caused riots and got stabbed is bs.

Is he a better heel? Yes. But not because he was doing it in a time when fewer people knew it was all a work.

[St. Jimmy]

TOVO summed up what I was thinking quite well.

[Kane Knight]

TOVO summed up what I was thinking quite well.

You were wondering how much you could drool over Hunter's crotch, too?

[St. Jimmy]

But of course.

[Kane Knight]

Just checking.

[The One]

Vegas, I can respect what you're saying and everything, but I personally feel as though a lot of people still carry some grudge against Triple H from the World Champ on RAW era where he never let go of the belt...well...never REALLY let go...

If I had more time and energy I would try to come up with a more articulate response, but in the mean time I'm going to admit that I am a huge Triple H fan (easily makes my top 10). In the meantime, would you please list off the first 10 or 20 or whatever number of guys it was that you could think of off the top of your head who are better performers. Because honestly, you take Michaels, Flair, some room for arguments on Angle, Austin, Benoit...and I'm not too sure I can think of anyone else who's better between the ropes...

[The One]

You were wondering how much you could drool over Hunter's crotch, too?

I didn't drool...I may have been typing with a slight chubby, but that's it...

[Kane Knight]

Dude, you left teeth marks on his jock.

[The One]

Yeah, but I'm a remarkably clean head giver...no saliva was wasted in oral pleasing of Triple H...

[Zen v.W.o.]

Ok so, just as background here, I like Hunter, I like HBK, and I like Piper.

But to claim that Piper is a better heel than Hunter simply because he caused riots and got stabbed is bs.

Is he a better heel? Yes. But not because he was doing it in a time when fewer people knew it was all a work.


ok, then he's a better heel because he made people that didnt matter, fucking matter. He made them look more popular than they were ever before.

Plus he was just so far ahead of his time that people were aghast at times by what he said and did. He was so bad he made others look fucking saintly.

[Scott Delaney]

Some random comments.

-HBK helped carry the WWE during its down period (alongside Taker and Bret). HBK helped keep the WWE afloat with the two aforementioned men.

-In the year 2000, quarterly ratings were actually at its highest when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on TV (not The Rock!). I dare anyone to look this up.

-HBK was the better overall wrestler than HHH.

-HHH was a very good wrestler who that could "tell a story" almost better than anyone (almost as good as his good friend Bret ;)). Even today, HHH is a good wrestler.

-HHH deserves a lot more respect than shown in this thread. If getting to the top was as easy as "kissing ass", than Triple H wouldn't have made it. Plain and simple. HHH was a guy that made friends with the right people and worked his butt off. Where I come from, that's fucking smart. Period.

-The WWE, Vince McMahon, and management.....NOT TRIPLE H are the ones who are ultimately responsible if certain wrestler(s) get deliberately held back. Even if Triple H does (allegedly) have a voice, it's ultimately management's decision to go through with it. Make no mistake about it. EVERYONE is out for themselves. Flair, Foley, The Rock, Austin, and even Bret "Ghandi" Hart. etc., etc., etc. Why single out Triple H?


-RVD screwed RVD. Anyone who thinks Triple H is to blame for RVD's lack of push needs their head checked. RVD's sloppy in-ring work and questionable attitude may have some things to do with it don'tchya think?

-Bret Hart is still a crudge garrying cry baby who still can't get over the past. Bret still continues to take "pot shots" at Vince and HBK. Meanwhile, HBK....while not perfect, has made a respectable effort to change his life for the better. HBK is now a legitimate lockerroom leader backstage. Kudos to HBK for attempting to walk a righteous path. Shame on Bret for cheating on his wife, while continuously displaying a "holier than thou" self-righteous attitude. Bret is a disgrace to Owen.

-Want to know what's ironic? (if 'irony' is the right term here). In 1997, Shawn had Bret in the sharpshooter only to have Bret reverse it. 10 years later, I think its safe to say that Shawn has pretty much reversed the sharp shooter on Bret.

Nowadays, it's HBK who has taken the "high road" and is now the level headed one. Nowadays, it's Bret who continues to act like a bitter child...taking pot shots at HBK and Vince whenever he's given an opportunity to. Interesting how Bret was silent towards Vince during the Hall of Fame induction.

[Rammsteinmad]

Draw: Shawn Michaels
In-Ring Ability: Shawn Michaels
Mic Skills: Shawn Michaels
Pull: Triple H

[BigDaddyCool]

It is sacrilege to question the kliq's drawing ablility or power backstage. Anyhow Nash>HBK&HHH>The World.

[Johnny Vegas]

Some random comments.

-HBK helped carry the WWE during its down period (alongside Taker and Bret). HBK helped keep the WWE afloat with the two aforementioned men.

-In the year 2000, quarterly ratings were actually at its highest when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on TV (not The Rock!). I dare anyone to look this up.

-HBK was the better overall wrestler than HHH.

-HHH was a very good wrestler who that could "tell a story" almost better than anyone (almost as good as his good friend Bret ;)). Even today, HHH is a good wrestler.

-HHH deserves a lot more respect than shown in this thread. If getting to the top was as easy as "kissing ass", than Triple H wouldn't have made it. Plain and simple. HHH was a guy that made friends with the right people and worked his butt off. Where I come from, that's fucking smart. Period.

-The WWE, Vince McMahon, and management.....NOT TRIPLE H are the ones who are ultimately responsible if certain wrestler(s) get deliberately held back. Even if Triple H does (allegedly) have a voice, it's ultimately management's decision to go through with it. Make no mistake about it. EVERYONE is out for themselves. Flair, Foley, The Rock, Austin, and even Bret "Ghandi" Hart. etc., etc., etc. Why single out Triple H?


-RVD screwed RVD. Anyone who thinks Triple H is to blame for RVD's lack of push needs their head checked. RVD's sloppy in-ring work and questionable attitude may have some things to do with it don'tchya think?

-Bret Hart is still a crudge garrying cry baby who still can't get over the past. Bret still continues to take "pot shots" at Vince and HBK. Meanwhile, HBK....while not perfect, has made a respectable effort to change his life for the better. HBK is now a legitimate lockerroom leader backstage. Kudos to HBK for attempting to walk a righteous path. Shame on Bret for cheating on his wife, while continuously displaying a "holier than thou" self-righteous attitude. Bret is a disgrace to Owen.

-Want to know what's ironic? (if 'irony' is the right term here). In 1997, Shawn had Bret in the sharpshooter only to have Bret reverse it. 10 years later, I think its safe to say that Shawn has pretty much reversed the sharp shooter on Bret.

Nowadays, it's HBK who has taken the "high Nowadays, it's HBK who has taken the "high road" and is now the level headed one.
Nowadays, it's Bret who continues to act like a bitter child...taking pot shots at HBK
and Vince whenever he's given an opportunity to. Interesting how Bret was silent
towards Vince during the Hall of Fame induction.

Honestly, i was going to respond more to this passage, but once i saw "Quarterly ratings show Shane & HHH, etc" there is no point. If you are going to honestly say that THOSE TWO were the reason for those ratings, then please give your brain to the salvation army. And don't say you didn't say it, b/c you brought that bs to the table.

Sorry to rant a lil, but had to have been one of the worst things i've read here. And trust me, look at my sig; i've seen ugly.

[Scott Delaney]

If you are going to honestly say that THOSE TWO were the reason for those ratings, then please give your brain to the salvation army.

Here's what I said you fucking shit-for-brains:

In the year 2000, quarterly ratings were actually at its highest when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on TV (not The Rock!). I dare anyone to look this up.

Interesting how you stayed silent when people blamed Triple H for the low ratings a few years back (circa 2002).

Obviously, The Rock and Austin were far more integral to the boom of the Attitude era than Triple H. However, it's not like Triple H just "rode the waves" of a popular era. On the contrary, Triple H himself played an integral role in the overall poularity of the product....you lesbian.

It would be like saying, "Andre The Giant simply rode the wave of the Hogan era." :roll:

Rock and Austin were the main draws of the attitude era, but Triple H contributed MAJORLY to the success of the attitude era as well (whether he did it alongside DX or McMahon/Helmsley faction, etc. is irrelevant).

And yes, Bret Hart is STILL a self-righteous, whiny, SELFISH bitch that will NEVER let go of the past.

And YES - quarterly ratings were at its highest (in 2000) when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on the tel-eh-vision set.

[Kane Knight]

I can't find a single credible source to back that up, Scott.

[Johnny Vegas]

Interesting how you stayed silent when people blamed Triple H for the low ratings a few years back (circa 2002).


lol wtf are you talking about with this statement, really? BECAUSE THEY WERE RIGHT is probably why i "stayed silent". But anyway, ask anyone on this board, or ANYONE ELSE for that matter (except for YOU of course) why those ratings were at a "peak" then. I'm sure HHH and Shane weren't provoking/promo'ing about Val Venis or JBL. Hmmm, probably Rock, Austin, or whomever was making him look good. Rock & Mankind's "This is your life segment" was one of the highest rated segments of RAW history. NOTHING to do with your sugardaddy, until he came out because he HAS to be part of SOMETHING (or at least his nose) big. All i'm saying is that if you are THAT dude, then you don't always have to be in the title hunt. Since 99, he has been 9/10 of his career. The 1/10 was when he was injured.

Look, i'm not knocking HHH or what he has done. It takes two. But come the fuck on ppl, in 2002 you JUST came off of the invasion angle. JUST CAME OFF ONE OF THE DREAM ANGLES OF WRESTLING. But WHO was thrusted in the spotlight? Who kept holding people down and getting in the "higher-ups" ear? Katie fucking Vick?? Are you kidding me? How is it that the early part of that year, NOT only was it soooo fucking predictable that HHH was going to win the title at WM, but made Jericho look like Steph's lap dog. Jericho was the FIRST UNDISPUTED champ, and he (HHH) alone made that shit look irrelevant.

Booker T was as over as he ever was when him and HHH were fueding. HHH HAD to go over though, right? Saying that Booker should get his "bags" and shit like that. Yea, it was supposed to be heat, BUT THIS IS TRIPLE H WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT? lol he is supposed to be the biggest heel "ever", but everyone knew that Booker deserved that win.

RVD fucked himself over? You know what, when you are one of the most over ppl in the WWE, getting "Rock/Austin pops", and isn't even a WWE-breed then MAYBE you should at least get SOME kind of title run to see where it leads. It is something fresh, new, and would pull more ECW viewers that probably weren't watching then b/c they knew Vince/HHH wouldn't have any part of a champ from ECW.

Why did HHH have to put over HBK? Lol?! HBK coming back alone gave him more fanbase because his injury was "career ending". So you are going to put someone over who is already going to be big and has established himself in the WWE already?

Vince may not have realized what he was saying when he said it, but when he brought in the nWo, didn't he say "If the WWE is going to die, i'm going to kill it myself by bringing them in" or someone of that relevance. Who was the "top guy" then? I may be incorrect with this statement, but i do remember Vince saying something like that. And why would you even need to bring the nWo over if you are doing soooo well with HHH at the top?

I've said it before and i'll say it again. HHH WANTS be to Flair, wants to be The Rock, wants to be Austin, wants to be Hogan (in terms of popularity) for this generation i guess. But we as fans now know what goes on back there and what he does in order to get himself to the top. Why do you think he has had so many "character changes"? lol c'mon. How many fucking times is he going to make these big comebacks that require signifigant amounts of promo time? Why does he need to be the closest to Ric Flair in terms of title wins?

HHH is good, but imo and in alot of others he will not be thrusted into the greats because of his lack of caring about the long term.

Just another note, i bet you The Rock, Foley, Austin (to an extent), Piper, Undertaker (the guy has been consistently over so he deserves it), and some others get more respect from fans and the industry that the likes of HBK, HHH, Hogan, Jarrett, etc. And at the end of the day, if you have that, you won't have to bury ppl.

[Theo Dious]

HHH fucked up when he started listening to HBK about how to get to the top.

This is, quite possibly, the stupidest thing I have ever head anyone say about wrestling. How can you say he "fucked up" when listening to HBK not only got him to the top, but got him into a place where he can do anything he wants, and will actually OWN the damn company one day? You may not like how he did it or where it led, but to suggest that it wasn't a success is asinine.

RVD fucked himself over? You know what, when you are one of the most over ppl in the WWE, getting "Rock/Austin pops", and isn't even a WWE-breed then MAYBE you should at least get SOME kind of title run to see where it leads. It is something fresh, new, and would pull more ECW viewers that probably weren't watching then b/c they knew Vince/HHH wouldn't have any part of a champ from ECW.

They DID give him SOME kind of title run to see where it led. They also launched an entire new brand around him, and made him WWE and ECW champion simultaneously. It led to him being arrested for smoking pot in a car.

Where's my picture of RVD blowing the elephant...?

[Theo Dious]

I'm also sick and tired of people saying "X didn't do what Piper did." Piper did what he did when wrestling was barely more than a freaking carnival sideshow attraction. Doing something first doesn't make you unassailably better than people who do it later.

[The One]

Here's what I said you fucking shit-for-brains:



Interesting how you stayed silent when people blamed Triple H for the low ratings a few years back (circa 2002).

Obviously, The Rock and Austin were far more integral to the boom of the Attitude era than Triple H. However, it's not like Triple H just "rode the waves" of a popular era. On the contrary, Triple H himself played an integral role in the overall poularity of the product....you lesbian.

It would be like saying, "Andre The Giant simply rode the wave of the Hogan era." :roll:

Rock and Austin were the main draws of the attitude era, but Triple H contributed MAJORLY to the success of the attitude era as well (whether he did it alongside DX or McMahon/Helmsley faction, etc. is irrelevant).

And yes, Bret Hart is STILL a self-righteous, whiny, SELFISH bitch that will NEVER let go of the past.

And YES - quarterly ratings were at its highest (in 2000) when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on the tel-eh-vision set.

I think this guy is my sock... :D

[Theo Dious]

ok, then he's a better heel because he made people that didnt matter, fucking matter. He made them look more popular than they were ever before.

Yeah, I still remember what he did for Virgil...

[Kane Knight]

They DID give him SOME kind of title run to see where it led. They also launched an entire new brand around him, and made him WWE and ECW champion simultaneously. It led to him being arrested for smoking pot in a car.

And they did so in a timely fashion when he was most over, yes?

Oh, wait, they waited several years, they let his popularity subside, like with so many others.

Sure, RVD would have eventually blown the elephant anyway, but let's not pretend his drug use would have even been made an issue were it not for the fake Wellness Policy after Eddie died.

[Johnny Vegas]

And they did so in a timely fashion when he was most over, yes?

Oh, wait, they waited several years, they let his popularity subside, like with so many others.

Sure, RVD would have eventually blown the elephant anyway, but let's not pretend his drug use would have even been made an issue were it not for the fake Wellness Policy after Eddie died.

:y:

And Dark T, talking about the "HHH fucked up when he listened to HBK" thing, i was describing why he will not be a great in the fans eyes. NOT what is the "smart" thing to do to get to the top. You work hard, not smart. Thats how people gain respect. Yea yea, "HHH doesn't need respect when he is in the position he is in." But honestly, especially in that industry, respect is gold. Like i said before, i take NOTHING away from how much of an asshole he was (kayfabe.....yea) when battling Rock, Austin, Foley, etc.

Another point out of my input in this thread: When smart wrestling fans talk to their kids about who they grew up on and who "changed" wrestling (ala Ali for boxing, Jordan for basketball, etc.), HHH (unless your a complete HHH mark) will not be in those conversations. More like the main ones like Austin, Foley, Taker, etc. Name-passing. It's one of those things you can't BUY or BURY your way to. It's something that's earned. HBK is the closest to the exception of this because he didn't exactly bury ppl like H, he just didn't want to lose lol.

[Kane Knight]

Yup. Trips is trying to force a legacy.

The Rockj, Austin, Michaels, Undertaker, and so forth have one. Triple H will probably not be mentioned in the same breath, unless as the "Other guy" from DX, most likely.

[Johnny Vegas]

What makes it so bad, i have this thought in the back of my head that when the WWE is in slumps like they are now, ppl like HHH WANT to try and "carry the company on his back". Instead of changing the product and freshening it up, he insists on trying to be like his slaveowners Flair, HBK, and Nash and be that guy who "carried" the company. (Nash might not belong in there lol)

One problem, HHH. YOU DON'T HAVE TO! Flair/Sting had to carry WCW around '93. Why? Because they WERE pretty much the best thing going there. HBK had to carry the WWF/E during the late '96-'97 years. (Yea, Bret was there, Taker was there, but thats a whole different issue lol)

I swear to the Almighty that if the likes of MVP, CM, Morrison, Edge, hopefully Jericho, J./M. Hardy, Burke, and all the others that are going to be the future of this company are all buried by HHH, i HOPE Vince goes bankrupt.

[Zen v.W.o.]

I'm also sick and tired of people saying "X didn't do what Piper did." Piper did what he did when wrestling was barely more than a freaking carnival sideshow attraction. Doing something first doesn't make you unassailably better than people who do it later.


Hmm, yeah, wrestling was bigger during his peak years then it is now. How do you think he's got a bigger name then HHH? Besides being much more talented.

[Scott Delaney]

But WHO was thrusted in the spotlight? Who kept holding people down and getting in the "higher-ups" ear? Katie fucking Vick?? Are you kidding me? How is it that the early part of that year, NOT only was it soooo fucking predictable that HHH was going to win the title at WM, but made Jericho look like Steph's lap dog. Jericho was the FIRST UNDISPUTED champ, and he (HHH) alone made that shit look irrelevant.


Booker T was as over as he ever was when him and HHH were fueding. HHH HAD to go over though, right? Saying that Booker should get his "bags" and shit like that. Yea, it was supposed to be heat, BUT THIS IS TRIPLE H WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT? lol he is supposed to be the biggest heel "ever", but everyone knew that Booker deserved that win.




This is where you and I are disagreeing....you fucking faggot. "HHH this...and HHH that." Again - HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT TRIPLE H WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY OF THE ABOVE?!?!?!?

Again - If anyone was getting "held back", it's solely a result of WWE management and/or Vince McMahon himself not wanting that wrestler to be pushed. Triple H CANNOT be blamed for ANYTHING....even if he did (allegedly) suggest things to the creative team from a selfish point of view.

Even if the WWE are/were (allegedly) letting Triple H "hold back" people, then it's still management/Vince's fault for allowing that. OF COURSE Triple H will create the best possible situation for himself if he's allowed to (as we all would).


RVD fucked himself over? You know what, when you are one of the most over ppl in the WWE, getting "Rock/Austin pops", and isn't even a WWE-breed then MAYBE you should at least get SOME kind of title run to see where it leads. It is something fresh, new, and would pull more ECW viewers that probably weren't watching then b/c they knew Vince/HHH wouldn't have any part of a champ from ECW.

This I'll agree with to an extent. I too believe that RVD should have been given a title run during his 1st year with the company. Since that time however, RVD REFUSED to do the things necessary to get to the next level.

His in-ring work was still sloppy, and his promo ability was still very average. Furthermore, RVD took not-so-subtle shots at the WWE and Triple H in the media. NEVER visiting the troops in Iraq also discerned him as someone who wasn't a TEAM PLAYER. When RVD finally DID win the title, he went ahead and got arrested a month or so later. Bottom line? RVD had the talent, but simply not the attitude. Again - it's extremely lame to blame Triple H for RVD's OWN shortcomings.

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vegas
HHH fucked up when he started listening to HBK about how to get to the top.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Johnny Vegas - you are COMPLETE shit for brains. This has to rank as one of the top 5 stupidest comments in Tpww history. This comment is almost dumber than Johnny Vegas admitting to liking "chocoloate flavored condoms" back in January 2006. :nono:

[Scott Delaney]

:y:

And Dark T, talking about the "HHH fucked up when he listened to HBK" thing, i was describing why he will not be a great in the fans eyes. NOT what is the "smart" thing to do to get to the top. You work hard, not smart. Thats how people gain respect. .

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously bro, do you even read some of the shit you type?

Triple H will never be mentioned in the same sentence as guys like Austin, Rock, Hogan, Piper, and even Taker and HBK (as has been mentioned in this thread).

I think a large part of this reason, is because Triple H could never become that HUGE face (like the aforementioned names). Triple H bombed misreably as a face in 2002 (although that wasn't entirely his fault) and even now......isn't what you'd consider a tremendous face.

[Johnny Vegas]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Johnny Vegas - you are COMPLETE shit for brains. This has to rank as one of the top
5 stupidest comments in Tpww history. This comment is almost dumber than Johnny
Vegas admitting to liking "chocoloate flavored condoms" back in January 2006. :nono:


lol this lame ass dude is still angry with me. Just because you brought up that lie and brought it in a topic that i posted in has placed mud butt on any type of credibility and/or personality you MIGHT have had LOL sorry you don't agree with my post :meh:

[Scott Delaney]

lol this lame ass dude is still angry with me. Just because you brought that up that lie and brought it in a topic that i posted in has placed mud butt on any type of credibility and/or personality you MIGHT have had LOL sorry you don't agree with my post :meh:

Hopefully by working hard (but not smart), I can win back some much needed credibility from you. ;)

[Johnny Vegas]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously bro, do you even read some of the shit you type?

Triple H will never be mentioned in the same sentence as guys like Austin, Rock, Hogan, Piper, and even Taker and HBK (as has been mentioned in this thread).

I thI think a large part of this reason, is because Triple H could never become that HUGE
face (like the aforementioned names). Triple H bombed misreably as a face in 2002
(although that wasn't entirely his fault) and even now......isn't what you'd consider a
tremendous face.

smart=taking shortcuts. Wait, forgot who i was replying to: Detective Dumbass lol
i

[Scott Delaney]

smart=taking shortcuts.
i

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Man fuck. This entire thread is filled with Johnny Vegas "Hall of Shame" comments. :nono:

So you're basically saying that Triple H took shortcuts to the top. :y: