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10-14-2007, 11:23 AM
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#1 |
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It's a blood match!
Posts: 27,382
  
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Triple H vs Shawn Michaels
I am interested in comparing the two. As wrestlers, their backstage pull, and their drawing power.
I think through the past HBK has probably drawn more than Triple H, he was the biggest draw in 1996 and 97 and has continued to draw even higher, being in the main event of the most bought WWE PPV of all time, Wrestlemania 23. However, I think Triple H has drawn decently in his day, and maybe for a longer time. But he did sink the ratings for Raw to a very low point earlier this decade. As a wrestler no doubt HBK is better in my mind. Triple H has been amazing before but now he usually is average to really good. As far as backstage pull goes, I really don't know. Of course Triple H is married to Stephanie, but HBK has to have a huge word on everything he does, as does Triple H though. So lets hear your comparisons. 
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10-14-2007, 11:44 AM
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#2 |
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VG + Q&A FORUM REPRESENT
Posts: 2,957
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I sometimes think vince gives too much power to wrestlers backstage
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10-14-2007, 11:53 AM
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#3 |
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est. 1884
Posts: 11,488
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HBK was the biggest draw during WWE's worst drawing period.
HHH was one of the 4 biggest draws during wrestling's biggest boom. HBK is my all-time fav wrestler but he was never as big a draw as HHH. |
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10-14-2007, 12:08 PM
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#4 | |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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Quote:
HHH had nothing to do with with wrestling biggest boom, he was just fortune it enough to have been put over by the biggest draws of his time, Stone Cold, Rock, Mick Foley... If it wasn't for them, no one would give a fuck who HHH is. |
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10-14-2007, 12:41 PM
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#5 | |
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The Year of the Bullet
Posts: 4,259
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Quote:
I think that is one of the biggest things not present currently, that were there when wrestling was at its peak. All the solid upper lever but not top notch guys have now moved into the main event or have left. Triple H (though he was a little ahead of the time, and was main eventing by the end of the boom), Edge, Christian (in TNA), Kurt Angle (in TNA), Chris Jericho (not wrestling). Now, who is left in the undercard? Nobody. Nobody really solid with a ton of potential has stepped up to fill that void. The CLOSEST people that come to mind for me are MVP, Mr. Kennedy, and The Hardy's continue to teeter around that area of the card. But nowhere near the talent level of the boom area at all. So, Triple H contributed to the boom of wreslting, but I would not call him a primary component. It's tough to weigh draw against each other as far as HBK vs. HHH. I mean, technicaly HHH has drawn more, but again that was as a part of the boom. HBK was the guy and was the single biggest star all by himself. So....I dunno how to weigh that out. I think I give the edge to HBK, because when you look at the time WWE tried to make HHH "the guy", wrestling came plummeting out of the highest rated era. Last edited by Mercury Bullet; 10-14-2007 at 12:44 PM. |
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10-14-2007, 12:42 PM
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#6 | |
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GO HABS GO!
Posts: 4,018
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Quote:
That's a BS answer tbh. It takes more credit to do what guys like Bret, HBK and Taker did carrying a company then it does for HHH to reap the rewards that a guy like Austin, and the rock, plus a product that was booming did for the time. HHH was there at all the right times, and has done nothing but allow others to either get him over or give him the rub. HBK got him known, got him pushed, and then Trips managed to stick around during a time the company was at it's peak, and that was thanks to Austin and smart booking. Had nothing to do with HHH, who got to coast off that wave that was alrready riding high. He then married the boss' daughter. HHH has never been in the elite class, like Taker, Bret, HBK, Austin, Rock, Hogan, Piper, and possibly Savage were in...oh yeah, Andre too. HHH has done everything and anything to try and get himself wedged in there, doing and saying the right things, being at the right place at the right time, but he's like Jarrett...has a big peice of the pie more through luck and some stroke than anything else. |
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10-14-2007, 11:54 AM
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#7 |
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Mr. Slack A Lack Jack!
Posts: 4,390
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True, but its nowhere as bad as it was in WCW.
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10-14-2007, 12:36 PM
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#8 |
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RAPTURE READY.
Posts: 31,936
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HBK > HHH
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10-14-2007, 12:41 PM
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#9 |
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Ron Paul 4 EVA
Posts: 152,467
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HHH used to tank Raw Ratings. Seriously, his QHs would drop remarkably.
Can we not pretend he was a draw? In all probability, PPVs succeded DESPITE him, not because of him. So Michaels wins on two counts, being the better draw, and the better wrestler. Pull? Don't know. Probably HHH. |
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10-14-2007, 12:46 PM
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#10 |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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I think I partially agree with Zen, I'm not sure if that was right or not.
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10-14-2007, 12:49 PM
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#11 |
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GO HABS GO!
Posts: 4,018
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I just think it takes a lot more credit to hold up a company that was trying to revive itself from the awful 93-95 years(some quality there, but not enough to matter) then it does to ride the wave of success that was already established.
In short. |
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10-14-2007, 12:53 PM
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#12 | |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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Quote:
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10-14-2007, 01:01 PM
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#13 |
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GO HABS GO!
Posts: 4,018
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JUst to further expound on my point before somebody decides to claim HBK didnt hold anything up, he brought the company down to the point it was at...no, no.
After stars that had been in the company for so long had all left in 92-93, guys like Hogan, Piper, Savage, Jake, Warrior, Dibiase etc....the company had to refreshen and restart with newer stars...that takes an adjustment period, and with Turner suddenly getting into the game, the wwf roster was depleted moreso, and they werent the only company able to sign any quality wrestler they could find. They had competition now, and less free flowing cash at their disposal. Back in the 80's Vince had and did have anybody he wanted to get. Not so any longer. So now, he has a few top stars to work with, and he has to establish a bunch of others, most of which had less talent than what he had with him in the 80's. HBK, along with Bret and a few others, mostly Taker, were the usual main eventers...without them, can you imagine what that company would have drawn and/or sunk to? They held that company together until they adjusted accordingly, and started booking and being creative with the time period they were in. It took Vince forever to get rid of the clowns, plumbers etc....And that isnt HBK's fault or anybody else's that had to carry that company back then. So no, HBK didnt sink the company, it was going to free fall no matter what for a while after everyone left it for wcw, and it was going to need certain guys to hold them afloat for as long as it took before they could get their paddles on the shoreline. Everything goes down after a boom period. It happened in the mid 90's after what we saw throughoutt he 80's to early 90's...and it happened again NOW, after the attitude years had passed. |
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10-14-2007, 12:56 PM
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#14 |
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The Year of the Bullet
Posts: 4,259
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^ Yeh I can pretty much agree to that too. Thats what factored into my decision.
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10-14-2007, 12:58 PM
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#15 |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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plus, HBK > HHH, just in general.
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10-14-2007, 01:14 PM
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#16 |
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▒▓▀▄WINNER▄▀▓▒
Posts: 5,070
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I was never big on Michaels, never hated him or anything, but I loved the iron man match with Bret and the lead up to it. I'll never ever forget the zip-line entrance. It's jsut etched in my memory as wrestling fan as one of those moments you just know could only happen "then".
But also, when the Attitude era was going full steam, HHH had a great presence, I loved the fued with the main drawers Rock, Austin, HHH, Foley and even Taker around the time when Vince was doing anyting to stop Austin etc. and of course, my faveourite theme ever "My Time". HHH was just über around that time. I personally think in terms of b/s pull, it's HHH, even if that may be based alone on Steph. He even managed to get his 11th title reign when there was really no need for it ffs. It would have been far better building up to it. He WILL break Flairs "16 time, 16 time, 16 time" record cos he "can". I seriously do think he would never have got where he is without being with Steph. Agreed he's class, but it's good fortune too. But meh, he's also happy with her too! I've always preferred HHH and always will me thinks. But I'd love to see HBK and HHH feuding at some point in the future. |
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10-14-2007, 02:36 PM
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#17 | |
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Ron Paul 4 EVA
Posts: 152,467
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Quote:
Trips got where he is because he's Kliq, and Steph was icing that cemented him an even better future, but I think he would have gotten there with out. Vince puts a lot of faith in too many wrestlers who are not banging his daughter to really believe otherwise. |
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10-14-2007, 01:19 PM
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#18 |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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16 Time world champ meant something in Flair's time, now it just says HHH wins a title whenever his waist starts to feel naked.
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10-14-2007, 04:09 PM
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#19 |
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VG + Q&A FORUM REPRESENT
Posts: 2,957
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"Triple H was always just an ass kisser"- Bret Hart
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10-14-2007, 04:44 PM
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Last of a Dying Forum
Posts: 16,215
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10-14-2007, 05:37 PM
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#21 | |
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GO HABS GO!
Posts: 4,018
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Quote:
 Pretty much. And due to this, he lacks both credibility and integrity. No pride reaching the top sucking a chain of dick. |
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10-14-2007, 04:43 PM
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#22 |
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Last of a Dying Forum
Posts: 16,215
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Why compare greatness to greatness?
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10-14-2007, 05:27 PM
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#23 |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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Fuck You St. Jimmy.
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10-14-2007, 06:25 PM
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#24 |
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Ron Paul 4 EVA
Posts: 152,467
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I gotta say, being on top is still being on top.
You can say there's no pride in it, but I doubt Trips gives a shit. |
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10-14-2007, 06:43 PM
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#25 |
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Boss
Posts: 17,611
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Oh come off it you people. Now I agree with the general idea that Michaels is better than Hunter, but the way some of you talk about Triple H screams idiotic.
Shawn Michaels is the better performer, but that's really in large part due to Shawn Michaels being the best performer of all time. Triple H has more backstage pull now, but either way, it's not like Shawn or Hunter have to do anything they don't want to do anyway...and haven't for some time. Shawn Michaels was at his peak (96-98) a better stand alone draw than Hunter was at his peak (99-01)...but Hunter had a larger a better cast of characters to play opposite of, which is why ratings where better for his time on top. Now that I got that out of the way I would like to take a moment here and really talk about how incredible Triple H is. Let's remember that this is a guy who was in line to finally get a main event push (admittedly due to him being in the Kliq) and then got shit upon by Vince in response to the Curtain Call. He took the wrath that should have been divided up into four and bared it all alone. He busted his ass and worked back into being in good graces with Vince again. Also, let's talk for a second about the evolution of his career...blue blood to rebellious degenerate to merciless mastermind to bad ass good guy to the "Old Ric Flair" model to happy fun loving guy...and he made all those transitions seamlessly without ever really changing his "gimmick" or going away and then coming back as someone knew, he's just evolved into whatever was needed of him. That takes a special kind of performer. And speaking of him as a performer, I defy any of you to name off all the people who are better than him in the ring. He's not the flashiest worker, but he's completely solid in everything he does. From normal matches to Iron Men to hardcore to ladder, he's done it all and been incredible with it. While Austin and Rock and to a lesser extent Foley (who by the way, I'd wage that Hunter was a bigger draw than Foley was, but whatever) were bringing in the fans, it was Hunter who was doing the matches with them. Rock has never, and I mean NEVER had better matches than the ones he had with Hunter. Hunter and Austin's feud was so fucking incredible, and no it didn't fare as well as Austin/McMahon, but than again nothing in the history of professional wrestling has ever even come close to Austin/McMahon...And Mick Foley...shoot, I'd take Hunter/Foley at the Rumble and No Way Out over any of Foley's other matches in his run with WWE. Now everyone knows I praise Flair as god, plain and simple, but if there was ever anyone who came close to him, Hunter's as good of a choice as anyone. Will Triple H break Flair's record? Probably top 16, sure (even though Ric Flair held 22, two-two, World Titles, but whatever...). Is that so bad though? Over the past decade can you think of anyone who has been as solid and consistant a worker as Triple H? I honestly don't understand where all this loathing of him has come from lately. He's held a World Title for all of a couple of hours in the past 2 years and you all still bitch about him being a title hog or whatever. And for what it's worth, I don't think that him being married to Steph has anything to do with his stroke. It's more because he and Vince are best friends, if anything the fact that Vince's best friend is boning his only daughter might cause a little tension. Thought admittedly that doesn't seem to be the case at all... The bottom line is Triple H is one of the best workers of all time. At his peak, I would submit that he was the best heel there has ever been. And inside the ring, it's a damn short list of people who are a better performer than him. |
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10-14-2007, 07:19 PM
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#26 | |
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GO HABS GO!
Posts: 4,018
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Quote:
I can name about 20 guys off the top of my head better than Hunter in the ring, and there's probably plenty more. All those matches you thought were great, well hey, Trips worked with better talent. When put in the ring with lesser talent, the match was never memorable. He doesnt CARRY guys like the greats in the ring do. Furthermore, he isnt that great a character, because as a face, quite frankly, he sucks. He's had two face turns that bombed completely. While with DX he was fine, but that's the entirety of DX and not of HHH alone. Once seperated, he's not nearly as likeable. The guy manages to latch for himself meaningless title reigns to somehow make it look like his reaching Flairs record means anything worthwile..he really needed that last one, eh? As for being the best heel of all time? Not nearly. Guys like Piper, Flair, Dibiase, and probably Savage would have something to say about that. Remember, Piper did more for wrestling as a heel than HHH ever did for wrestling in his entire career. People despised him so much they fucking shot at him with guns, stabbed him three times and rioted numerous more times. Piper made you HATE. HHH never exactly had enough steam behind him that he could make other wrestlers..not necessarily already establoished and over guys, bigger then they were, but the lesser guys that may have needed that rub from an uber heel....seem better. He didnt get you to embrace anyone more. Piper did. That's a heel, The One. HHH is a fine heel, he isnt without his good points. Ranks up there. But you've got a massive hardon for the man, and it's clouding your judgment. HHH really isnt anything more than what you said, but solid. And that IS at his PEAK. Not at his peak, and he's less than solid. |
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10-14-2007, 09:05 PM
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#27 | |
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Posts: 61,517
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Quote:
I agree 100%. Triple H making flawless adjustments to his character? I might have missed it, but I can't imagine his swap from blue blood to degenerate being seamless. That might be due to the writing, but still. Also, Triple H sucks dick as a babyface. In the ring, the guy does everything competently, but as Zen said, there are at least 20 guys off the top of my head I can name as being better. Johnny Vegas got it right, as well. As "great" as Triple H may be in the ring, he has no reason to bury everyone in his path. He's certainly not that good, and I hope it comes back to bite the WWE in the ass. Also, KK has proven that the guy was not a draw. |
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10-14-2007, 06:57 PM
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#28 |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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so, HBK > HHH
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10-14-2007, 06:57 PM
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#29 |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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Also, HHH is overrated, especially by ToVo.
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10-14-2007, 06:59 PM
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#30 |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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Also, I love you ToVo.
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10-14-2007, 07:33 PM
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#31 |
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Ron Paul 4 EVA
Posts: 152,467
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I picture TOVO sitting there typing that with his smark hardon.
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10-14-2007, 07:36 PM
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#32 |
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▒▓▀▄WINNER▄▀▓▒
Posts: 5,070
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I agree with many things being said in here.
And btw, I never once said I "loathed" HHH when I mentioned him beating Flair's 16-time (nay, 22 time - see I keep u happy!) title reigns. - So if that was meant at me, pah. i never said owt. I like HHH. No beef with him at all. |
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10-14-2007, 08:02 PM
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#33 |
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Head on a Rollercoaster
Posts: 6,756
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Damn, zen did that A-bomb thing that the U.S. a while back...
Anyway, as far as JV's take: HHH is good, but i cannot get behind someone who has the PULL to pretty much do what he wants, and has for quite some time. Yes, The One, he had to pay his dues because of the Curtain Call. There are PLENTY of wrestlers that have had to pay due for hardly ANY reason(s) (Jericho, RVD, just to name a few) and still have yet to reach the status HHH has gained. And they were, if not, more over than he was IN HIS PRIME. He is not the only guy in the business to do what he is doing, hell look at Hogan. But what Hogan has done for that company, and wrestling in general, is something HHH only dreams of doing. Hogan may have had some great opponents as well, but he was so over that you HAD to keep the title on him, for fear of fan backlash. HHH was NEVER that over, and tries too hard to get to that point. He needs to realize that we are in a day and age where fans know waaaay more about what goes on behind those curtains that Hogan, Flair, and others had to deal with. That is the ONLY type of excuse i will give him. But we knew about this when Rock, Austin, Foley, and such were around, so he can only use that excuse to a certain extent. HHH fucked up when he started listening to HBK about how to get to the top. He got the good DX rub, that is fine. Austin got his from Hart, Rock got his from....you know what, The Rock was destined. But when you BURY ppl in the process, time after time, after time, after time, you will get NO respect. And that is what happened. Jericho (god, it still makes me mad to this day), RVD, Booker T, Carlito AND Umaga, and more. When you bury ppl to TRY and get yourself to where Flair, Hogan, Rock, Austin, and others were in terms of popularity, then there is a problem. Hogan got away with it, yes. HBK got away with it, yes. But The Rock didn't, Austin didn't, Foley didn't, RVD didn't, Jericho didn't, Eddie didn't, Benoit didn't, Piper didn't. And WHY do these names end up on avatars, conversations, t-shirts, fan stories, etc? Because the fans WANTED them there. If you force-feed, you WILL throw it back up. That is what happened to Goldberg, HHH, and i hate to say it, but they had better do something with Cena or he will be on that list. Point: HHH was/is a good performer, HBK was/is a GREAT performer. Both will be inducted into the hall of fame. But with the amount of pull these guys had, you just can't thrust them up there with the greats. HBK more than likely, but not HHH. |
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10-14-2007, 08:46 PM
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#34 | |
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Ron Paul 4 EVA
Posts: 152,467
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10-14-2007, 09:05 PM
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#35 | |
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They/Them
Posts: 15,331
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10-14-2007, 11:02 PM
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#36 |
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Ok so, just as background here, I like Hunter, I like HBK, and I like Piper.
But to claim that Piper is a better heel than Hunter simply because he caused riots and got stabbed is bs. Is he a better heel? Yes. But not because he was doing it in a time when fewer people knew it was all a work. |
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10-15-2007, 12:55 AM
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#37 | |
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GO HABS GO!
Posts: 4,018
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Quote:
ok, then he's a better heel because he made people that didnt matter, fucking matter. He made them look more popular than they were ever before. Plus he was just so far ahead of his time that people were aghast at times by what he said and did. He was so bad he made others look fucking saintly. |
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10-14-2007, 11:05 PM
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#38 |
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Last of a Dying Forum
Posts: 16,215
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TOVO summed up what I was thinking quite well.
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10-14-2007, 11:12 PM
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#39 | |
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Ron Paul 4 EVA
Posts: 152,467
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10-14-2007, 11:20 PM
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#40 | |
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Boss
Posts: 17,611
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Hybrid Mode
