I'm not one to rip on someone for one mistake, but... *Iraq Spoilers*

[Mr. Nerfect]

The terrorists win.

- Chris Jericho defeated Randy Orton via DQ when JBL interfered and attacked Jericho and laid him out with a clothesline

- Jeff Hardy defeated Carlito with a swanton. Hilarious finish. Jeff missed it when he was supposed to hit it. Vince ordered Carlito to lay down again so Jeff could do it for a retake

- Vince gives a speech and brings out the Divas

- Layla & Kelly Kelly vs. Maria & Mickie James ended when Vince told the servicemen they had seen enough and stopped the match

- Vince was doing a promo when Santa Claus ripped on him. Santa was John Cena and he and the women tossed DVDs to the crowd

- Rey Mysterio defeated Mark Henry with a roll-up

- Ron Simmons defeated Bob Holly with a spine buster

- HHH & Michaels as DX defeated Umaga & Kennedy when HHH pinned Kennedy after a pedigree

Jeff Hardy missed a Swanton Bomb? The guy has just gotten better, I hope this isn't the start of a return to his drug-addled ways.

Also, looks like we see the start of the "epic" Chris Jericho vs. JBL feud. For one, this feud makes no sense. Secondly, Triple H is a bitch for crying behind Jericho's back. I still maintain that it should be Michaels vs. Jericho at WrestleMania, and anything else will lead to failure of me ordering the event. Triple Z, you don't draw.

[Xero]

ROFL, wow. If Vince actually came out he's in some deep shit.

[Mr. Nerfect]

ROFL, wow. If Vince actually came out he's in some deep shit.

Seriously, this could really be the end of his push. Every time Jeff gets close, he fucks up. Triple H is far less likely to do the job now.

I'm also wondering if he got pissed off at the Divas match, too? I mean, only one of the guys in there is any good. Maria tries hard, and she's got a lot of sympathy going for her, but with two other abortions in the ring, she probably would not be as sympathetic. Why the WWE keeps putting Kelly Kelly and Layla El in the ring is beyond me. Haven't they proved with their last three horrible matches that they're not ready?

[Kane Knight]

Man, they fucked up in front of the one audience that will still cheer for WWE. Hell, extended tours in Iraq, and I'd cheer for Shadow in a thong.

[Kane Knight]

But the Swanton was probably because og Jet Lag. You know, you fly halfway around the world, it's bound to take its toll.

[Kane Knight]

....And then there's the plane ride.

[94 SVT Cobra]

Jet lag, i smoked that kinda of pot once, real stron.....OH, you mean the plane ride kinda jet lag....right

[Mr. Nerfect]

But the Swanton was probably because og Jet Lag. You know, you fly halfway around the world, it's bound to take its toll.

I was going to give Jeff the benefit of the doubt with that. I mean, seriously. But even so, this might be enough to destroy Jeff's motivation. Vince comes out, re-orders the finish of the match, and Jeff is just like "whatever, dude, I don't care," and he starts sleep-walking through his matches. It'll be interesting to see how he goes in his Ladder Match with Carlito.

I guess it's an alright sign that Vince didn't order Carlito to pin Jeff Hardy after the finish. Jeff still got to win.

[DarKCentaur]

I was going to give Jeff the benefit of the doubt with that. I mean, seriously. But even so, this might be enough to destroy Jeff's motivation. Vince comes out, re-orders the finish of the match, and Jeff is just like "whatever, dude, I don't care," and he starts sleep-walking through his matches. It'll be interesting to see how he goes in his Ladder Match with Carlito.

I guess it's an alright sign that Vince didn't order Carlito to pin Jeff Hardy after the finish. Jeff still got to win.

Umm, maybe he missed the Swanton because Carlito moved out of the way when HE wasn't supposed to?

[Kane Knight]

I wouldn't assume this is anything more than a single botched move until given more evidence.

...But it's fun to make Hardy jokes.

[RVDmark]

Looking at the match report Vince was out there already probably. Its not like Jeff and Carlitto wouldn't have finished the match a few seconds later with Jeff getting the win. Left to their own devices I'm sure they would have just done another spot and finished the match. The only reason I see for Vince to interfere is if he was out there already.

That said, if this depushes Hardy, I'll be gutted. I mean think about it, he is one of the few wrestlers that the fans have decided to cheer for themselves. He wasn't exactly being majorly pushed to get where he is, he just suddenly became fan favorite. If Vince kills his push because of one mistake (Ok I admit I don't go to any non-televised events so he could make loads there) thats just silly. I mean he lets the Diva's wrestle and they suck with a few notable exceptions, Mickie James, Beth Pheonix, Victoria, Melina (recently), and Molly Holly (yeah I know).

[RVDmark]

Also its only for a title shot, not the title itself, so please Vince, let Jeff Hardy win.

[.44 Magdalene]

Also, it's a fucking swanton. I'm sure it's possible to just miss sometimes.

[GD]

I remember after a flight from Singapore back to the US, I got jet lag. It was Independece day and I was hanging out with my friends and as I went to sit on a chair, my head started spining and I just fell on the ground face first. I wasn't drunk for the record. Even God makes mistakes whereas Jeff is a mortal. But Vince telling carlito to lay down and re shoot the swanton bomb was retarded.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Also, it's a fucking swanton. I'm sure it's possible to just miss sometimes.

I can see your point, but the Swanton would be a pretty easy move to hit, I think. I mean, you don't always have eye contact with the canvas, but a move like the Shooting Star Press would be a lot harder to hit properly. I've always considered the Swanton a relatively easy move to hit.

As I said, it is probably jet lag, and I'd normally give Jeff Hardy the benefit of the doubt, it's just funny that it happens the boss has to come out, order them to completely stage a finish to cover up a guy's mistake just as he is about to reach main event status.

As KK said, it's fun to make Jeff jokes. I just hope it wasn't because he found a General's stash, or something, or that it gets in his head. There is no other botch evidence against Hardy at the moment, but I am going to be half-cringing already when he comes out for that Ladder Match on RAW.

[Jura]

Why does JBL keep interfering in matches and clotheslining the faces? Do I smell the return of JBL or is that me?

[BigDaddyCool]

Why do they keep carlito around? Just to ruin his name?

[Mister Sinister]

It was a windy day in Iraq...The wind must of blew him off course.

[Londoner]

So the dx return wasn't one night only after all then!

Also LOL@that jeff/carlito match.

[Theo Dious]

I'm also wondering if he got pissed off at the Divas match, too?

I doubt it. A) I don't think Vince cares of the eye-candy can't wrestle for shit. B) Reading the spoilers, it looks like stopping the match was just the start of his gathering heel heat to build up to the interruption by Cena Claus.

[Kane Knight]

I can see your point, but the Swanton would be a pretty easy move to hit, I think. I mean, you don't always have eye contact with the canvas, but a move like the Shooting Star Press would be a lot harder to hit properly. I've always considered the Swanton a relatively easy move to hit.

Easier than the SSP, yes, but there've been a fair share of botched SSPS

[Theo Dious]

Easier than the SSP, yes, but there've been a fair share of botched SSPS

That's unfair. It's not like a botched SSP ever ruined the finish of a Wrestlemania main event or something.
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Oh, wait. :shifty:

[Fox]

How do you miss a Swanton Bomb? You've got like your whole body to hit the guy with. It's not like missing a SSP - that's understandable what with the backwards rotation while going forward. But the Swanton is basically just a front flip off the top rope.

I'm guessing that report was just poorly written and that Carlito rolled out of the way when he wasn't supposed to. Otherwise, Jeff Hardy is an idiot.

[Xero]

Otherwise, Jeff Hardy is an idiot.

Look at Jeff Hardy's past and tell me that isn't the more likely situation.

[Xero]

Although, thinking about it now, Vince could be 'punishing' Carlito for not getting the job done against Hornswoggle and told Jeff (in kayfabe) to do it again (assuming it's not a complete over/undershot like the report is suggesting)...

[Sepholio]

I wouldn't be surprised if Carlito rolled away slightly, you have to remember that he is fairly disgruntled with WWE right now even if he is apparently staying with them. Hell, people are saying maybe Jeff missed due to jet lag, maybe Carlito rolled out because he forgot the spot due to his own jet lag.

We should give both the benefit of the doubt until the whole story is known.

[Mr Regal]

I'm sure it was all meant to happen the way it did....come on.

[Nark Order]

The guy isn't allowed to make one mistake? Jesus. I can't even remember the last time he botched that move.

[Xero]

The guy isn't allowed to make one mistake? Jesus. I can't even remember the last time he botched that move.

Again, with his past, he doesn't have ANY room to make ANY mistakes, especially with a main event push seemingly looming.

[Kane Knight]

How do you miss a Swanton Bomb? You've got like your whole body to hit the guy with. It's not like missing a SSP - that's understandable what with the backwards rotation while going forward. But the Swanton is basically just a front flip off the top rope.

I'm guessing that report was just poorly written and that Carlito rolled out of the way when he wasn't supposed to. Otherwise, Jeff Hardy is an idiot. You know, I'm gonna be fair. You do a move a thousand times, you're bound to fuck up once in a while. Even simple moves. There's a margin or error in every move.

It's still funny as fuck, but.....

[.44 Magdalene]

Yeah. I'd love to see videos of accurate swantons from everybody that says it's easy.

[Xero]

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[Nark Order]

Again, with his past, he doesn't have ANY room to make ANY mistakes, especially with a main event push seemingly looming.

That's bullshit. He slipped, it happens. Get off the dude's nuts.

[Xero]

Big difference between just a slip and Vince coming out and demanding they do a retake. If they just redid the spot I wouldn't have given it a second thought. He could have just sold it and set Carlito up again. But Vince coming out makes it bad.

At best this would mean that Jeff doesn't know how to recover from fuckups, like Orton.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah. I'd love to see videos of accurate swantons from everybody that says it's easy.

The injury that took me out of Aiki Jujutsu was incurred during a roll fall, which is a fairly simple move, too. In fact, one I had done successfully hundreds of times.

That's bullshit. He slipped, it happens. Get off the dude's nuts.

To be honest, it's unsurprising that there would be such a burden on the guy who's had a tendency to flake out and act unprofessionally because of a history of drugs.

[Loose Cannon]

yea, no big deal really. shit happens.

[Morrisey]

Jericho/JBL feud?

Why would they start a new feud for Jericho when he's already feuding with Orton?

[Kane Knight]

Jericho/JBL feud?

Why would they start a new feud for Jericho when he's already feuding with Orton?WWE is pretty dedicated to logic, after all.

[JT]

WWE is already starting to not care about Jericho after the last 3 lukewarm weeks, and are now moving to get him out of the title pictures and into a "Battle of Words" feud going into WM24

[Kane Knight]

WWE is already starting to not care about Jericho after the last 3 lukewarm weeks

Maybe they realised he was an impulse buy. It's too late to return him....

Oh, but seriously, this whole "Starting not to care" stuff seems like it's throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Morrisey]

WWE is already starting to not care about Jericho after the last 3 lukewarm weeks, and are now moving to get him out of the title pictures and into a "Battle of Words" feud going into WM24

I don't think WWE had any intention of putting the belt on Jericho just yet. It's not like they have to do a lot to get him out of the title picture anyway. All he needs to do is lose to Orton, then move on to the next feud - Orton has a ready made feud with HHH/Hardy anyway.

[Mr. Nerfect]

It was a windy day in Iraq...The wind must of blew him off course.

You're optimism is impressive. ;)

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah. I'd love to see videos of accurate swantons from everybody that says it's easy.

:|

How many? It's much easier to find a video of a Swanton performed correctly than one that's terribly botched. Find me videos of ones that are botched, since it is so hard to do.

I still maintain that the Swanton would be one of the easier top rope moves to hit. Jeff Hardy is what, a little under 6'0? That's about the distance he had to somewhat connect with the move. For Jeff to completely miss? I dunno, it doesn't seem right to me. As KK said, shit like this happens. Cena fucked up a hip toss, Chavo got injured off an arm drag, but still...you're making the Swanton sound like a Phoenix Splash. It's not, it's a front flip. And Xero is right, given his reputation, it's not like Jeff Hardy is Paul London botching the London Calling for the first time. As I said, I'm not trying to ride Jeff Hardy into the ground, I'm just saying...Jeff Hardy is not the guy to make one mistake. He's a builder of them.

Originally, I thought Carlito may have had something to do with the spot, because he is disgruntled and all that, but the way it is written kind of eliminates that possibility, at least as a likely scenario. If Carlito rolled out of the way, it wouldn't have been "hilarious." To me, it sounds like Jeff overjumped, or underjumped, or just fucked up in general. I can't really imagine how he did it, but it probably happened.

Also, Vince interrupting would not have been as likely if Carlito had rolled out of the way. He might not have been aware it was supposed to be the finish, or he might have given more time for them to re-work the spot, so that the company isn't embarrassed in front the troops. Jeff Hardy fucking up makes the most sense in the way Vince gets pissed off and gives Jeff another take.

There isn't anything else I've seen going around about this, so I'd say Jeff is safe and clear.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Big difference between just a slip and Vince coming out and demanding they do a retake. If they just redid the spot I wouldn't have given it a second thought. He could have just sold it and set Carlito up again. But Vince coming out makes it bad.

At best this would mean that Jeff doesn't know how to recover from fuckups, like Orton.

I thought of Randy Orton when I read this, too.

[.44 Magdalene]

How many? It's much easier to find a video of a Swanton performed correctly than one that's terribly botched. Find me videos of ones that are botched, since it is so hard to do.



I think you totally missed the fucking point. Thanks.

[.44 Magdalene]

I can't really imagine how he did it, but it probably happened.

And this is my whole counter-argument. By itself. Goodnight.

[Kane Knight]

I think you totally missed the fucking point. Thanks.

Critic's point (paraphrased): I'd like to see you guys do it.

Just to help the process along a little.

[KYR]

....And then there's the plane ride.

But, wait a minute isn't...

Oh, I see what you did there...:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Inadequacy]

When I saw "The terrorists win" I thought Hassan came back

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think you totally missed the fucking point. Thanks.

You asked for videos of the move performed correctly. Go look up YouTube. If you meant to say "I'd like to see you do it," my retort is that I could actually do it. I'm an agile guy myself, so I can flip forward a few degrees. And if you meant "I'd like to see you do it," then you should have just said it.

And your point was that you "can't imagine how it went wrong." You made it out that the move is really easy to fuck up. It really isn't.

[Kane Knight]

He did just say it.

So...Ummm...When you uploading a video of you doing it?

[.44 Magdalene]

Accurate. Adjective.

Swantons. Noun.

From. Preposition.

Everybody. Object of Preposition.

(...That says it's easy)

Videos of it.

I don't know how much more bluntly to put it. I didn't think it was possible to misunderstand.

Fuckin' Jesus, are you just misinterpreting shit on principle now?

Point stands. If it's that easy, then an Alienoid swanton shouldn't be too much to ask for.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He did just say it.

So...Ummm...When you uploading a video of you doing it?

He didn't say it originally. He said "If the Swanton Bomb is so easy, find me a video of it being done." He corrected his broad statement later.

I could upload me flipping forward into my pool, or something. I don't see the point, though. Fuck, I could do a flip onto my couch, or even onto my floor. Fuck, get me a wrestling ring and I could hit one a marked "X." I know how to break my fall, so at worst I'll probably get a bit bruised. It's not hard to fucking flip forward. I'm not going to go through the trouble of uploading a video because The Critic asked for one. I already chased up existing quotes for him in another thread because he was too fucking lazy to do it.

Besides, Critic is way off point anyway. A doctor should be able to perform a simple medical procedure. Occasionally they will misdiagnose, or make a human mistake, but that doesn't open the floor to ridiculous demands like "if the procedure is so easy, you do it yourself!"

The point here is that Jeff made a huge mistake. Not just a little botch. This one got the boss involved, and was notable enough that someone attending the show described it as "hilarious." That's Randy Orton running in and out with a steel chair right there. Shit happens, but the point is that shit used to happen with junkie Jeff, so when shit happens, it's reasonable to speculate on whether it will be a one time occurrence or if he's going down the same slippery slope, again.

I still think it is fucking stupid that Jeff missed a fucking Swanton Bomb. The kid should be hitting them in his sleep, and even when he was stoned, he was hitting them off ladders. For that reason, it probably isn't drug-related, but fuck if it doesn't make any sense. That'd be like Val Venis missing a Money Shot. This is coming from his biggest TPWW supporter. If Sean Morley missed a Money Shot completely when he was meant to hit it, I'd be asking what the fuck was wrong with him, too.

Yeah, shit happens, I hope Jeff can recover. As KK said, though, it's fun to make Jeff Hardy jokes.

[.44 Magdalene]

Yeah. I'd love to see videos of

accurate swantons from everybody that says it's easy.


How in the FUCK is that broad?

[Kane Knight]

Well, I can't say you couldn't have made it clearer, since you could have said something to the effect of:

Yeah. I'd love to see videos of accurate swantons performed by everybody that says it's easy.

Still, the intent and meaning was pretty clear.

[Kane Knight]

He didn't say it originally. He said "If the Swanton Bomb is so easy, find me a video of it being done."

See, that's where you tripped up.

My rebuttal, in a word, is "No he didn't."

(Yeah, it's three words)

[.44 Magdalene]

I'm not going to go through the trouble of uploading a video because The Critic asked for one.

:| So this whole rant is your "No, Critic, I'm all talk and no evidence"?

I already chased up existing quotes for him in another thread because he was too fucking lazy to do it.

:| You chased up quotes that I shot down immediately. Go ahead and ignore that portion of the thread, though. It wasn't that I was lazy, it's that I had already addressed those quotes exactly. Fuck, that's not even relevant to this conversation.

Besides, Critic is way off point anyway. A doctor should be able to perform a simple medical procedure. Occasionally they will misdiagnose, or make a human mistake, but that doesn't open the floor to ridiculous demands like "if the procedure is so easy, you do it yourself!"

Nobody accuses small medical procedures of being easy, do they? Sounds a little bit fucking different to me.

I still think it is fucking stupid that Jeff missed a fucking Swanton Bomb. The kid should be hitting them in his sleep, and even when he was stoned, he was hitting them off ladders. For that reason, it probably isn't drug-related, but fuck if it doesn't make any sense. That'd be like Val Venis missing a Money Shot. This is coming from his biggest TPWW supporter. If Sean Morley missed a Money Shot completely when he was meant to hit it, I'd be asking what the fuck was wrong with him, too.

Yeah, absolutely atrocious. Wrestlers never miss moves. How appalling, this concept that sometimes guys just fuck up. Ridiculous. Preposterous!

[.44 Magdalene]

So apparently, I have to start rephrasing everything I say five or six times per post to ensure that nobody goes crazy on it.

Yeah. I'd love to see videos of accurate swantons from everybody that says it's easy.

Yeah, videos of accurate swantons from everybody that says it's easy are something that I'd love to see.

You know what I'd love to see videos of? Swantons from people that say it's easy to do.

People that think swantons are easy to do should do them, and then make videos of it and show them to me. I'd love that.

Show me your swantons via video, people that think they're easy.

[Innovator]

What the fuck is this thread about?

[.44 Magdalene]

Jeff Hardy fucked up a Swanton.




Some people think it's a huge deal.

[Innovator]

Orton fucks up the Ace Crusher every week, whats the big deal?

[.44 Magdalene]

Jeff Hardy did drugs, though.


Omgomgomgomg.

[Kane Knight]

:| So this whole rant is your "No, Critic, I'm all talk and no evidence"?

Wouldn't it be great if he was just up front and actually said that?

:| You chased up quotes that I shot down immediately. Go ahead and ignore that portion of the thread, though. It wasn't that I was lazy, it's that I had already addressed those quotes exactly. Fuck, that's not even relevant to this conversation.

Welcome to the club. We have hats now.

Unfortunately, they all say "Prom King."

Nobody accuses small medical procedures of being easy, do they? Sounds a little bit fucking different to me.

Well, let's be fair, there are simple medical procedures.

Of course, to diagnose or operate, you need at least seven years of school and a sheet of paper saying you're qualified.

Not to mention another point, and I think we can all agree on this:

Wrestlin' ain't brain surgery.

What's "simple" in the medical field, and what's simple in wrestling is not comparable. Also, I think the way 'Noid talked about how he could do it (Specifically, the tone) undercuts his point greatly here.

Yeah, absolutely atrocious. Wrestlers never miss moves. How appalling, this concept that sometimes guys just fuck up. Ridiculous. Preposterous!

That's what really gets me the most.

I mean, I've seen wrestlers fuck up hip tosses. Another, more universal truth:

Shit. Fucking. Happens. Now, am I contesting that it's a simple move? No. It's relatively straightforward, but there is ALWAYS a margin of error in wrestling or any other physical activity. I mean, so he fucked up. It was a simple move, but bad things happen. Even a "sure thing" can go south. It shouldn't even be remotely surprising that you can screw up from the top rope.

[.44 Magdalene]

Yeah. I'm not even saying that the swanton's hard to do, I'm just saying that it's a flip from the turnbuckle onto a specific target. It couldn't possibly be so easy that it's impossible to miss.

People fuck up, and this is definitely something that could be fucked up (more easily than alot of other moves--for example, a cutter, or a hip toss, which as previously mention get fucked up with minimal brick shitting).

[.44 Magdalene]

I just don't buy the whole "JEFF HARD DID DRUGS. THAT MEANS IF HE MISSES ONE MOVE AT ONE SHOW NOW, HIS WHOLE CAREER COULD BE ON A DOWNWARD SPIRAL" thing.

It happens sometimes. Hogan's fucked up boots, Nash has fucked up powerbombs, Orton's fucked up RKOs. But omg, Jeff has a history of doing drugs. That's perfect justification for making a huge deal about every individual accident he has.

[Vastardikai]

Well, especially if you consider that Randy has a history of doing drugs, Hogan has a history of doing steroids, and Nash has a history of tearing Quads...

[Kane Knight]

I just don't buy the whole "JEFF HARD DID DRUGS. THAT MEANS IF HE MISSES ONE MOVE AT ONE SHOW NOW, HIS WHOLE CAREER COULD BE ON A DOWNWARD SPIRAL" thing.

It happens sometimes. Hogan's fucked up boots, Nash has fucked up powerbombs, Orton's fucked up RKOs. But omg, Jeff has a history of doing drugs. That's perfect justification for making a huge deal about every individual accident he has.

And TBH, if I were going to start somewhere, I'd start with the big boot. How the FUCK do you mess that one up? And so consistently? I mean, I know I've been saying every move has a margin of error, but if I were gonna start talking about someone, wouldn't be the guy jumping on to something.

Well, especially if you consider that Randy has a history of doing drugs, Hogan has a history of doing steroids, and Nash has a history of tearing Quads...

:rofl: Too true....

[Rammsteinmad]

Just gonna add my two cents and say that I agree with Xero on page one. Vince coming out totally killed the segment. If Jeff and Carlito just sold it and set themselves up to do it again nobody would have thought twice about it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

How in the FUCK is that broad?

I interpreted it as "If the Swanton Bomb is so easy to do, I'd like to see a video of it being done correctly." You could have said "If the Swanton Bomb is so easy to do, I want to see all you people do it personally, and send it to me." I misinterpreted you as meaning that the move is so easy to botch that it's hard to find a video of it being done correctly. Which is asinine.

[Dorkchop]

Jeff overshot a Swanton earlier tonight. His head barely hit Carlito. All you have to do is sell it how it was hit. If he fully lands on you, sell it like he did. If he completely misses you, sell it like he completely misses you. it's wrestling and you should be able to do this.

[Mr. Nerfect]

:| So this whole rant is your "No, Critic, I'm all talk and no evidence"?

No, my point is that your arguments are always: "Find this for me. I'm not going to listen to any of you unless you throw evidence at me." What evidence have you brought to the table? None. Why don't you take on the burden of proof for a change, and stop being such a lazy bastard.

:| You chased up quotes that I shot down immediately. Go ahead and ignore that portion of the thread, though. It wasn't that I was lazy, it's that I had already addressed those quotes exactly. Fuck, that's not even relevant to this conversation.

No, you didn't shoot them down. You think you do, but you asked for people who said that Chris Jericho has a negative effect on the ratings. I showed you two. You were wrong. Even if they did not blame Jericho for the low ratings, there were two people who said RAW's ratings were lower.

And who the fuck are you to decide what is relevant? Sounds like you're dealing with what you want to deal with, to me. How is me doing a Swanton relevant? Answer: It's not. I'm not a professional wrestler performing professional wrestling moves.

Nobody accuses small medical procedures of being easy, do they? Sounds a little bit fucking different to me.

Actually, they do. There are very, very simple medical procedures. I'd expect a doctor to be able to do them. I'd expect a wrestler to be able to perform wrestling moves after doing them for ten years.

I have said many times that guys fuck up. I'm usually the first to defend Shelton Benjamin for botching a springboard or something. The whole point of this thread was Vince coming out, Jeff not being able to afford to make mistakes and the result being embarrassing for Jeff just as he is about to get a career match opportunity against Triple H at Armageddon.

Yeah, shit happens. Guys botch hip tosses and arm drags, I've said that about ten times throughout this thread, but jumping forward off the top rope is probably, quite frankly, less excuseable to botch than those moves. I mean, if Jeff Hardy slipped, that's understandable. Slipping would result in Jeff Hardy probably hitting Carlito, though. This doesn't sound like a simple botched spot to me. It sounds like a major miscommunication, ala Matt having to call a spot ten times before Jeff listens to him, or Rico standing on the top rope for fifty seconds waiting for Jeff to remember his cue.

My fear is that this is a guy the WWE are going to turn into a main eventer before he is ready. Yes, he's improved in the ring, but the issue here is more whether his mind is in the right place. This was shades of old Jeff.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Yeah. I'm not even saying that the swanton's hard to do, I'm just saying that it's a flip from the turnbuckle onto a specific target. It couldn't possibly be so easy that it's impossible to miss.

People fuck up, and this is definitely something that could be fucked up (more easily than alot of other moves--for example, a cutter, or a hip toss, which as previously mention get fucked up with minimal brick shitting).

Well, look at it this way: If a WWE ring is 20 feet along, and Jeff is about 6 foot, and he had to hit an opponent who was lying in the first half of the ring, and they are about two feet wide, then logistically (and these are all generalisations), Jeff's only problem with the move should be actually rotating on it. Gravity should do the rest. I mean, the end result could be a pretty weak looking move, or a pissed off wrestler in the back if Jeff Hardy's foot goes into his crotch, but for Jeff Hardy to completely miss? Come on, in a sick way, that is funny. It's like he did everything but a Swanton Bomb.

And when a move like the hip toss or ace crusher is fucked up, there is usually brick shitting on here. This is the first time I've done it, just because I see the dark humor in Jeff fucking up this close to his push.

It would probably be possible to miss, but it would look more ridiculous, and to me, makes less sense than other botches. Dropping a guy in a power type move, because your muscles give out, or because the guy is slippery you don't quite get him over for a hip toss...that makes sense to me. Jeff might have had heat exhaustion, or been knocked for a loop, and probably had jet lag for his flight. I'd be easy to forgive him for having a horrible match (as all of that card will probably be), but there is so little room to miss a Swanton Bomb to me. Maybe I'm wrong to assume so, but I thought the biggest risk of doing a Swanton Bomb would be tripping and botching the move. Maybe that is what happened, and the report is inaccurate, and hit and miss just refer to the quality of the move?

The more I think about it, the more I can imagine Jeff Hardy tripping out and missing the guy he is meant to hit, but you're making it sound like it's easy to do. I think it would be much harder to miss a Swanton than to hit it.

And the "Jeff Hardy did drugs" thing is not as valid to me as the "Jeff Hardy has never been a wrestler's wrestler" one. When Shelton Benjamin botched, a lot of people blamed Shelton, and then claimed it got into his head. I can see the same thing happening with Hardy. I mean, judging by Dorkchop's post, it might have. Jeff Hardy has a lot of good will going towards him these days, to fuck it up because he goes back to his sloppy ways is not something he should do. Everyone makes mistakes, but Jeff moreso than most people in the business (both professionally and personally). Eventually you have to draw the line and call the guy unreliable.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Jeff Hardy did drugs, though.


Omgomgomgomg.

Actually, by all accounts so did Randy Orton.

The point isn't the drugs, either. The point is his past as an unreliable and sloppy worker. As I said, wait and see to decide whether or not it's a trend. I did not see the Ladder Match, how did that go? I read it was quite decent, but then again Jeff apparently nearly fucked the Swanton again.

[Xero]

ROFL, how the hell does Jeff do this TWICE?

I'm thinking it may be a set up for an angle on the Iraq, but that's a rediculous long shot. Jeff fucked up (assumed to be) exactly the same way twice.

[Shadow]

Jeff overshot a Swanton earlier tonight. His head barely hit Carlito. All you have to do is sell it how it was hit. If he fully lands on you, sell it like he did. If he completely misses you, sell it like he completely misses you. it's wrestling and you should be able to do this.

That's all he really did though. Just overshot Carlito. Quite easy to do when you're Jeff Hardy.

Bet HHH will expect a picture perfect Swanton though.

[Xero]

Please explain how he did the same thing twice.

Carlito? Okay...

What are you going to say when he overshoots Triple H?

[St. Jimmy]

Triple H > Alienoid. It's nothing personal, just truth.

[.44 Magdalene]

No, my point is that your arguments are always: "Find this for me. I'm not going to listen to any of you unless you throw evidence at me." What evidence have you brought to the table? None. Why don't you take on the burden of proof for a change, and stop being such a lazy bastard.

http://www.tpww.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1930143#post1930143

I just took on burden of proof in an argument about whether or not I take on burden of proof. Thank you, and triple shut the fuck up.


No, you didn't shoot them down. You think you do, but you asked for people who said that Chris Jericho has a negative effect on the ratings. I showed you two. You were wrong. Even if they did not blame Jericho for the low ratings, there were two people who said RAW's ratings were lower.

:| So they blamed Jericho for low ratings without saying he had a negative effect on ratings?

What.

:| What the fuck are you trying to say? That they blamed Jericho unintentionally? That they blamed him without realizing it? They didn't blame Jericho for the ratings. Period. Ratings dropped and Jericho didn't stop them, and that's all that was said. Period. You're contradicting yourself in your own fucking paragraphs now. At no point in either of those examples did they state that Jericho negatively affected ratings--BDC has clarified since that he wanted that to happen, but has never said anything about Jericho actually doing it. KK has clarified that you're completely wrong, and just read too much into it. How the fuck much more do you need to be proven wrong before you'll accept that you're wrong? The people you quote have stated that you misinterpreted it, and I myself said you misinterpreted it. Do you need Jesus Christ himself to tell you that you misinterpreted it before you'll accept it? Fuck.

And who the fuck are you to decide what is relevant? Sounds like you're dealing with what you want to deal with, to me. How is me doing a Swanton relevant? Answer: It's not. I'm not a professional wrestler performing professional wrestling moves.

Because that argument and this one have nothing to do with each other in terms of actual topic? :| You being capable of doing a swanton is relevant to you claiming they're easy to do. Quadruple shut the fuck up. The whole "It's so easy that something's wrong if he can't do it, but I can't do it" thing is very stereotypical armchair booker-smark of you. Also, the fact that you're trying to dig up what I did in old arguments and discredit my actual ability to make a point, rather than just sticking to addressing my points, is a rather weak tactic on your part. Again, the fact that you try and drag the person in, rather than just dealing with the argument, makes me think you invest a little too much into forum debates.

Actually, they do. There are very, very simple medical procedures. I'd expect a doctor to be able to do them. I'd expect a wrestler to be able to perform wrestling moves after doing them for ten years.

And medical malpractice suits are at their most popular right now. Doctors fuck up even relatively simple medical procedures. :| I've heard horror stories of X-Rays getting turned around. It happens. It doesn't ruin a doctor's career, it just costs them a little cash. Wrestlers fuck up moves. It happens.

I have said many times that guys fuck up. I'm usually the first to defend Shelton Benjamin for botching a springboard or something. The whole point of this thread was Vince coming out, Jeff not being able to afford to make mistakes and the result being embarrassing for Jeff just as he is about to get a career match opportunity against Triple H at Armageddon.

Except that it's mildly debatable whose fault it was, and it's by no means an indication that he's on death watch or in danger of losing his push. Unless you were there, of course. Or the type to completely buy into the word of a couple of dirtsheets.

Oh wait.

Yeah, shit happens. Guys botch hip tosses and arm drags, I've said that about ten times throughout this thread, but jumping forward off the top rope is probably, quite frankly, less excuseable to botch than those moves.

If you think a hiptoss is easier to botch than a swanton, you have obviously never learned fuck shit all in terms of professional wrestling. Again, armchair booker uneducated bullshit. I could hiptoss somebody and not actually do anything. I could just fucking stand there. Guys still botch the giving, theoretically just standing there end of the hiptoss. The more you go on about how much you "know" about wrestling moves, the less competent you come off as.

I mean, if Jeff Hardy slipped, that's understandable.Slipping would result in Jeff Hardy probably hitting Carlito, though.

:| Spoken like a true optimist. No, Alienoid, fucking up does not usually lead to winning. Trip, and you'll probably lose the race. Slip off the brake, and the car will probably not stop on its own. Mistakes can and often do lead to failure. Omgomgomg. For every one way to hit a target, there's forty bajillion ways to miss it. If he slipped, well... he slipped. And missed.

This doesn't sound like a simple botched spot to me. It sounds like a major miscommunication, ala Matt having to call a spot ten times before Jeff listens to him, or Rico standing on the top rope for fifty seconds waiting for Jeff to remember his cue.

How? Based on what? The fact that slipping couldn't possibly make him miss? :| It sounds like an elaborate situation because you want it to. It could plausibly be a fucking work for all we know. Very plausibly. It could plausibly be Carlito's fault. Very plausibly.

My fear is that this is a guy the WWE are going to turn into a main eventer before he is ready. Yes, he's improved in the ring, but the issue here is more whether his mind is in the right place. This was shades of old Jeff.

Of course. He missed a swanton. We should clearly re-evaluate how ready he is for the main event. :roll: Shades of old Jeff. Old stoner Jeff missed swantons all the times.

Oh, wait.

[.44 Magdalene]

I'm going to wait and see, but if he's missed it twice in a row, I'm thinking they're either playing off of the first fuck up and making it a work, or it's been a work since the start.

Not making my call yet, though.

[.44 Magdalene]

No, my point is that your arguments are always: "Find this for me. I'm not going to listen to any of you unless you throw evidence at me." What evidence have you brought to the table? None. Why don't you take on the burden of proof for a change, and stop being such a lazy bastard.

Wait, I just realized something. How the fuck would I have burden of proof anyhow?

DO YOU WANT ME TO PROVE THAT SWANTONS ARE VERY BOTCHABLE?


:|

Fuck a duck. The refutable statement was your's in the first place. I've been in the ring. I've taken the classes. I can tell you from experience that no, nailing a swanton isn't as easy as a hiptoss, cutter, boot, etc. You, with no experience (very obviously so) and theoretical logistics are claiming it is easy. Do you not know how burden of proof works?

Fuck.

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.

[.44 Magdalene]

I misinterpreted you as meaning that the move is so easy to botch that it's hard to find a video of it being done correctly. Which is asinine.

You'd think the fact that it was such an asanine statement would make you reconsider it... y'know... in the light that everyone else did.


But y'know. Why think? Just assume everyone means whatever is easiest to argue with.

[Kane Knight]

I interpreted it as "If the Swanton Bomb is so easy to do, I'd like to see a video of it being done correctly."

"I misinterpreted, so you must have been vague."

Jeff overshot a Swanton earlier tonight. His head barely hit Carlito. All you have to do is sell it how it was hit. If he fully lands on you, sell it like he did. If he completely misses you, sell it like he completely misses you. it's wrestling and you should be able to do this.

I figured it was related to him doing it "off of one leg."

[Kane Knight]

You'd think the fact that it was such an asanine statement would make you reconsider it... y'know... in the light that everyone else did.

It should be fairly self evident what you meant. I mean, ignoring the diction (Which was correct, but we'll ignore that point), there's no real reason that you would ask for what Alienoid assumed.

But y'know. Why think? Just assume everyone means whatever is easiest to argue with. Which is why I have a tendency to assume he's just trying to strawman people. He has a tendency to go for easily refutable made-up arguments, as opposed to addressing what people have actually said about matters. I mean, this will be perceived as an attack on Alienoid (When, in reality, if I wanted to attack him, I'd just call him a fucking retard and be done with it), but it's really hard to believe that he keeps missing the point time and time again.

There's the possibility that he's got a legitimate issue with comprehension, but it's really hard to think that when time after time he opts to not only go for something that wasn't said, but blindly insist that he's correct, no matter how it's explained to the contrary. It's just so hard to believe that it's anything other than a deliberate act to continue to do so.

Otherwise...Well, what's that old saying? "It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt?"