It has been over 6 months

[BigDaddyCool]

That is right, it has been over 6 months now since Chris Jericho made his big comeback. My question is, has he had a single 5 star match yet?

[dablackguy]

No. But i'm hard pressed to deny he's improved Raw

[Jeritron]

According to Meltzer, nobody in the WWE has since 1997. What is a 5 star match? Can anyone get one out of Orton and JBL?

[Jeritron]

I think it's been 4 months, but whatever

[Jeritron]

That is right, it has been over 15 years now since Kevin Nash made his debut. My question is, has he had a single 5 star match yet?

[thedamndest]

His match with Punk was pretty good last night.

[Londoner]

BDC, you're boring everyone now. This act of 'oh i hate jericho im so funny' is pretty tiring. You just basically let your bias hatred of jericho get in the way so no matter what you instantly overlook anything good he does. You even said his return was shit, you're the one whose full of shit tbh.

[Jeritron]

He's obv just trying to be funny for the 32,221st time here and hes failing miserably, but its hardly anything to care about. We get the gimmick by now

[BigDaddyCool]

I think it's been 4 months, but whatever

He came bakc in September, it is april now. That is 6 months.

[Jeritron]

He came back at the end of November

[Jeritron]

Unless of course you expected him to have 5 star matches when vignettes were running during commercial breaks

[BigDaddyCool]

I'm not trying to be funny. If I was trying to be funny, I would have said Arn Anderson and Scott Hall walked in to a bar, Chris Jericho ducked.

[dablackguy]

If he wants to hate, let him. But:

Solid matches with Hardy, Punk among others.

Solid feud with JBL, even though the matches were garbage

You can't say he hasnt contributed to the upper mid card i.e: Jerichoesque

[Londoner]

whatever, bdc.

[Jeritron]

"Jericho wrestled in his first match in over two years on the November 26, 2007 episode of RAW"

I have a bet for you though BDC, gentlemens bet. By the time the 6 month mark is here I bet he will have had a great match. He had programs with Orton and JBL. His matches against Punk and Hardy and others have been solid.
Now if he gets a program with someone he can work with and get time with, he should be fine

Ps, did you see the Armageddon match against Orton? Considering who he was facing, the match was pretty good

[BigDaddyCool]

He came back at the end of November

Oh...I check wikipedia...I could have miss read it, but is said something about Sept. 24...that could have been when they started running the spots for him.

[Jeritron]

Or you could just use your head. You watch wrestling all the time and spend your days on a wrestling forum, I'd assume you'd have a concept of time and remember what month it is

[BigDaddyCool]

"Jericho wrestled in his first match in over two years on the November 26, 2007 episode of RAW"

I have a bet for you though BDC, gentlemens bet. By the time the 6 month mark is here I bet he will have had a great match. He had programs with Orton and JBL. His matches against Punk and Hardy and others have been solid.
Now if he gets a program with someone he can work with and get time with, he should be fine

Ps, did you see the Armageddon match against Orton? Considering who he was facing, the match was pretty good

A great match in six months. Surely a wrestler of Jericho's asserted caliber should have no less than 3 great matches in 6 month.

[Jeritron]

lol, okay

[Londoner]

Jericho > JBL

[Indifferent Clox]

his match on smackdown last week was great.

[Londoner]

fucking hell, i agree with clox for once.

[BigDaddyCool]

Seriously, do you not think Jericho can't have at least 3 matches rated 4 out of 5 stars or better in 6 months? You certainly act like he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Hell, Jericho is even starting a fued with Punk, another guy the IWC seems to think is the best ever. Assuming they are both the caliber the IWC rates them as, there is no reason for them not to have 4+ star matches in the fued. You might even win said bet in 2 months.

So, I wish to know what the stakes of this bet are.

[Londoner]

BDC, im starting to actually think clox is a better poster than you. That's how bad your posts are right now.

[Jeritron]

He's actually been having the best TV matches out of anyone, aside from maybe Jeff Hardy
Who else has been having 5 stars? HHH squashing Snitsky and Umaga and HBK vs Kennedy have been equal to or lesser than Jericho's work with Orton and JBL. What about them?

He hasn't had much to work with in terms of programs or time. Like I said, he's gotten Orton and JBL and done a good job with them. His program with Jeff Hardy started and would have been great, and now he gets CM Punk which will prob be amazing.

Also, he's been in a few clusterfucks instead of one on one matches with other skilled wrestlers, (ie the elimination chamber and MITB) which were great and among the best of their kind.

[BigDaddyCool]

BDC, im starting to actually think clox is a better poster than you. That's how bad your posts are right now.

I hear a lot of blah blah blah from you. Do you seriously think that the slow ass match last night was up to Jericho and Cm Punk's standards?

[BigDaddyCool]

He's actually been having the best TV matches out of anyone, aside from maybe Jeff Hardy
Who else has been having 5 stars? HHH squashing Snitsky and Umaga and HBK vs Kennedy have been equal to or lesser than Jericho's work with Orton and JBL. What about them?

He hasn't had much to work with in terms of programs or time. Like I said, he's gotten Orton and JBL and done a good job with them. His program with Jeff Hardy started and would have been great, and now he gets CM Punk which will prob be amazing.

Also, he's been in a few clusterfucks (ie the elimination chamber and MITB) which were great and among the best of their kind.

Oh, he has been have 3 star matches while everyone else is have 2 star matches, that makes him better than everyone.

Seriously, what are the stakes of the wager?

[Jeritron]

I'm being honest here, if Jericho sucked now I'd admit it. In fact, I'd prob notice it more than you and be more critical with it. But the bottom line is he's doing what hes always been doing, he just hasn't been given the oppurtunity and time/compettitor to put on a 5 star.

He debuted in the WWF in late 99. How long was it til he had a 5 star there? Not until they let him. Blame WWE, not him

[KingofOldSchool]

According to Meltzer, nobody in the WWE has since 1997. What is a 5 star match? Can anyone get one out of Orton and JBL?

Meltzer is his own biggest mark.

[Londoner]

I hear a lot of blah blah blah from you. Do you seriously think that the slow ass match last night was up to Jericho and Cm Punk's standards?


I haven't seen it yet, so can't judge. But i know for sure that Jericho's had a lot better promo's/matches than you think. Like for example, his match against jeff hardy to win the ic title was great. His promo with the big show was great. His match with mvp was great. His match at wm on sunday was pretty good in the MITB. His return promo was fucking amazing. And i'm sure im missing other things.Oh yeh his match against orton was pretty good considering it was his first ppv match on his return. And he carried JBl in their feud.

You're just so full of shit its unreal.

[Jeritron]

Meltzer is his own biggest mark.

He is an idiot for his 5 star thing. He actually costs himself credibility by not naming any 5 stars. The problem is he has a problem with Vince and WWF ever since then and doesn't give them the 5th star for matches that are clearly 5 stars

[BigDaddyCool]

So what I'm hearing from all of you is that it isn't Jericho's fault he isn't putting out good matches, WWE is holding him down and he has been doing what he always does (which is boring a played out in my opinion).

Seriously, all I'm asking is has he had a 5 star match since his debut? And do you think he will start living up to the hype you have created for him and have a hand full of 4 to 5 star matches in the next 6 months?

[Londoner]

read my post again bdc rather than reading what you want to read.

[Jeritron]

I think the point of a 5 star match is that they dont happen often. What do you consider a 5 star match? and who has been having them? who has had a handful of 5 stars in the course of months?

[Gertner]

not good, but not bad.

[BigDaddyCool]

I said 4 to 5 star matches.

TL, I read your post. Jericho v Hardy sucked for Jericho. I expect better from him. I can see him calling spots, going slow, and just sucking in general.

[Juan]

His match with Punk was pretty good last night.

[Londoner]

As usual your hatred of jericho gets in the way of what really happened.

[Indifferent Clox]

this gives me a thread idea.

[BigDaddyCool]

Look, I just see Jericho being helped through matches by the likes of Punk and Hardy.

[BigDaddyCool]

Seriously, lets get this wager going? I don't think in the next 6 month's Jericho can have 2 show stealing matchs at a ppv.

[Jeritron]

I don't think you know what you're talking about here. I asked you who has been having 5 star matches, and who ever has at the rate you're demanding?

I think your definition of 5 star matches is strange. You judge them harsh, but dont really explain why you dont have a problem with nobody else of talent not having them. At the same time, you expect them frequently, but don't adresst he fact that by your standards nobody else has had them.

As of late, Flair vs Michaels is a 5 star match. Jeff Hardy vs HHH is a 4 star. Given time constraints, pairings and compettitors and match types Jericho has been unable to even attempt a 5 star match. For what hes been given, hes had good matches on tv, and been part of excellent matches on PPVs (mainly 6 men matches).

If Jericho was given 20 minutes + with Punk, HBK, HHH, Jeff, Morrison, Shelton or whoever else in WWE has equal talent today, he'd have a 4 to 5 star match.
He hasn't had that oppurtunity, and neither have many other people.

What match situation has he been in that could have been 5 stars that wasn't? Don't say Punk or Jeff Hardy in 6 minutes of time on tv to start a fued or job a title off a suspended wrestler. Because if you knew anything you'd know those aren't meant to be 5 stars. For what they were given and were, they were among the best television matches of the year.

[Jura]

I hear a lot of blah blah blah from you. Do you seriously think that the slow ass match last night was up to Jericho and Cm Punk's standards?
WWE wrestling matches have been slow for many years now. I don't think it's the wrestlers' fault. Even the HBK v Jeff Hardy match seemed slow. The only people that go fast, that i can recall right now, is london and kendrick. Punk and Jericho was pretty good but if you watch the MVP v Jericho match on Smackdown that was much better. Fast wrestling isn't always good either. For example TNA. They just seem to be running around all over the place with drop kicks and clotheslines and then the crowd cheers and chants.

[Jeritron]

Seriously, lets get this wager going? I don't think in the next 6 month's Jericho can have 2 show stealing matchs at a ppv.

How can you steal the show at a ppv if you're given 10 minutes, in a match with 5 or 6 other guys, or in a program with Orton or JBL?
You can't have a 5 star match unless you're allowed to

[BigDaddyCool]

Blah blah blah. If Cena can carry Khali to a watchable match, then Jericho should be constantly putting at 4 star matches or better.

[Jeritron]

BDC man, I don't think this argument can continue because I honestly think you're lost

[BigDaddyCool]

K, whatever Jericho is great, he has just been held down.

[Jeritron]

You haven't answered a single one of my questions either

[Londoner]

lol now you backtrack with the sarcasm tactic..admit it BDC, you're full of shit.*expects another sarcastic response from bdc*

[Jeritron]

I love where you try to talk about why the match should be better and what makes it bad. I really think you have no clue what you're talking about, which is fine, we're all just fans. But you're throwing out terms and expecations of things you don't even seem to have a grasp of

[thedamndest]

Blah blah blah. If Cena can carry Khali to a watchable match, then Jericho should be constantly putting at 4 star matches or better.

Whoa, when did this happen?

[Jeritron]

Jericho had the best singles match with Orton I can remember him having in years

[Londoner]

Jericho had the best singles match with Orton I can remember him having in years

Agreed.

[Jeritron]

Again, if someone can name one in the past couple years that has been better I will judge it honestly. But I can't think of one. Jericho vs Orton at Armageddon was better than his matches against HHH and HBK in the fall from what I remember

[Jura]

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AHtIbajxIkg&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AHtIbajxIkg&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rmlbvNE5bPw&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rmlbvNE5bPw&rel=0&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[Jeritron]

The more I think of it, I'm gonna be honest. I think Jericho has been consistently having the most solid matches on Raw since the winter, along with Jeff and HBK

edit: on Raw

[Jeritron]

and that probably means the company

[Testicle]

Exactly, he would have to have 20+ minutes with other top guys to have a 5 star match.

So no he has not had a 5 star match, but who has. IMO a 5 star match is a perfect wrestling match.

And alot of people say meltzer is full of shit, but I havent seen any perfect WWE matches since 1997 either. What the triple threat at WM XX. Come on, it was good, not perfect.

[Jeritron]

I'd love to get an answer the 10 questions I asked BDC over the course of this thread

[Kane Knight]

His match with Punk was pretty good last night.

LOL no.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Oh, he has been have 3 star matches while everyone else is have 2 star matches, that makes him better than everyone.

Um, in a way, yes. :|

Jericho has done some solid TV shit since returning. His matches against Jeff Hardy and with the Money in the Bank guys have been interesting. I don't know what you consider "5 stars," but Money in the Bank was pretty fucking good. Fuck, I even enjoyed his TV match with Santino. Jericho has even gotten the fans back on side.

You're embarrassing yourself, BDC.

[Mr. Nerfect]

LOL no.

Oh right, because Punk was in it. :roll:

[McLegend]

I know BDC isn't a Punk Mark, but there was no way Punk was carry Jericho in that match.

I think Jericho has been good since his return.

[Kane Knight]

Oh right, because Punk was in it. :roll:

No, because it was a lackluster match.

[Mr. Nerfect]

That MVP/Jericho match was pretty fucking awesome. I'd like to see what they could do on PPV.

[Mr. Nerfect]

No, because it was a lackluster match.

Haven't seen it, but you seem to be in the minority there. I can't imagine the two having anything too pedestrian. I'll get back to you about it.

[Heros Welcome]

No, because it was a lackluster match.

Are people ever satisfied? It was a TV match, and it still was one of the better ones on RAW in a while. There not going to go out there an put on a clinic, especially with the possibility of a feud on hand.

As for Y2J in general, I think he has been doing very good. If you expect someone, regardless of how he is viewed, to go out and have a 5 star match ever time don't bother watching because your never going to be satisfied.

[Kane Knight]

Are people ever satisfied? It was a TV match, and it still was one of the better ones on RAW in a while. There not going to go out there an put on a clinic, especially with the possibility of a feud on hand.

As for Y2J in general, I think he has been doing very good. If you expect someone, regardless of how he is viewed, to go out and have a 5 star match ever time don't bother watching because your never going to be satisfied.

I can sum that post up in one word: BAWWWWWWWW!

[Kane Knight]

Haven't seen it, but you seem to be in the minority there. I can't imagine the two having anything too pedestrian. I'll get back to you about it.

No, I'm sure I am in the minority. Mostly because Jericho could come out, drop his trunks, and take a shit for fifteen minutes, and half of TPWW would rave about how awesome it was. Same with Punk. People develop a blind spot when it comes to IWC favorites, and they are elevated to the point where they can almost literally do no wrong.

[IC Champion]

For the record, Punk/Jericho was mediocre at best, anyone who says otherwise either didn't see the match, or was high on meth and would have found 10 000bc entertaining.

[Ruien]

Lol at this flame war. Who will quit posting first!

Edit:

Did not notice the second page ><.

[Theo Dious]

According to Meltzer, nobody in the WWE has since 1997. What is a 5 star match? Can anyone get one out of Orton and JBL?

Meltzer is also a gangrenous cunt.

[Lock Jaw]

Jericho had the best singles match with Orton I can remember him having in years

In a totally unrelated note to Jericho...

I remember this great Christian vs. Orton match on RAW from back when Orton was face. It was like the only good Orton match in that whole period, and Christian did such a fantastic job that I found myself involuntarily caring about Orton in the match and subconsciously rooting for him to win. (Consciously I was still rooting for Christian)

[Innovator]

For the record, Punk/Jericho was mediocre at best, anyone who says otherwise either didn't see the match, or was high on meth and would have found 10 000bc entertaining.
I thought it was a decent TV match, but it seemed like they had a 20 minute match plan and just cut out the entire heat part.

[Good Ol JG]

i think jericho has done good for a guy who was out for 2 years, but hasn't had any 4 or 5 star matches since he's been back. his first program with orton would've been better if it wasn't featuring a guy with ring rust and a guy who IS ring rust. jbl is slow and out of shape, on top of the fact that he wasn't that good to begin with, so obviously those matches aren't 5 star classics. the match with punk last night seemed slow to me, and the finish was almost botched. i dunno whether that was a stylistic difference between the two or what, but for their abilities i expect better. the hardy-jericho match wasn't great, it was solid, but i wouldn't call it anything above a 3 star match.

jericho has the goods, he's one of the best wrestlers of the last decade, definitly top 10 or maybe even top 5.i think so far the fault is really a combination of A). he didn't wrestle for 2 years, it has to take a while to get your timing back and B). who has he wrestled that is good enough right now to carry him to a better match while he is getting his timing down?

[Indifferent Clox]

Morrison Punk from smackdown was great to.

Hell Morrison and miz v. Delaney Dreamer wasn't fucking bad at all.

[XL]

I know my 2 cents count for jack around here but it does really seem that BDC (who is without doubt one of the best posters around here) is just going out of his way to rile people up. Seems you're going the KK route of just trying to get a rise out of people.

As for the topic at hand...I think we need to bare in mind that, having been back a mere 4 months, that Jericho is probably only now hitting his stride. He was gone for a long time, regardless of training you don't just step back out into the ring (or on to the pitch / rink / field / court, etc) and pick up where you left off.

In those 4 months he's had 2 singles matches on PPV. His opponents were Orton and JBL. How many 4 - 5 star matches have those 2 guys ever put on?

Personally I think it takes 2 (or however many guys are in the match) of the very top talents in the game to step into the ring on the right night to get anywhere near 5 stars.

My list in Clox's '5 Star Matches' thread consists of the likes of Michaels, Jericho, Benoit, Angle and Lesnar and pretty much combinations of those guys mixing it up. You've taken 5 technically gifted guys and put any 2 of them in the ring and given them time on PPV. Even then I've stated that I'm not sure I'd give those matches the full 5 stars.

Basically, given the points above, I wouldn't have expected more than we have gotten from Jericho since his return. Once we've seen him in there with the likes of HHH, HBK, Benjamin, Edge, Punk or any of the other highly regarded workers and he's come up short I'm gonna reserve judgement.

[Fox]

Chris Jericho saved my baby from a fire.

Twice.

[Kane Knight]

I know my 2 cents count for jack around here but it does really seem that BDC (who is without doubt one of the best posters around here) is just going out of his way to rile people up. Seems you're going the KK route of just trying to get a rise out of people.


Let's make something clear here: BDC is going the BDC route. On the other hand, BDC may be a jerk on here for the sake of being a jerk, but I also believe he's fairly sincere in terms of not liking Jericho. Or at least, not deep throating him. I'm not sure it goes to the extremes people assume, but then....

As for the topic at hand...I think we need to bare in mind that, having been back a mere 4 months, that Jericho is probably only now hitting his stride. He was gone for a long time, regardless of training you don't just step back out into the ring (or on to the pitch / rink / field / court, etc) and pick up where you left off.

I don't expect him to be at his peak the moment he debuts, but I expected more than I saw from him. Especially in terms of mic skills, which really shouldn't suffer from the same kind of "ring rust."

In those 4 months he's had 2 singles matches on PPV. His opponents were Orton and JBL. How many 4 - 5 star matches have those 2 guys ever put on?

And if he wasn't being hyped to a level that nobody could live up to....

Personally I think it takes 2 (or however many guys are in the match) of the very top talents in the game to step into the ring on the right night to get anywhere near 5 stars.

A good worker can carry a mop to something near 5 stars. Maybe not a true five star epic, but close?

Orton's actually pretty easy to make look good. He's boring, but he's low maintenance as far as carrying a match. Only a few people can make JBL look like a good wrestler, but really, every match I've seen Jericho in since his return has been lackluster. I'm sorry. I like Jericho, but two things seem clear to me:


Chris Jericho should have probably waited to return. He left because he was burned out, and he seems to still be
The IWC seems to fawn over him no matter how good or bad he is.

[BigDaddyCool]

K I'm back. I have yet to see someone point out a 4 star or better match Jericho has had since his return, and no one is willing to put anything on the line saying Jericho will have three or more 4 star or better matches in the next 6 months. I hear a lot of excuses.

[XL]

No one is trying to say that Jericho HAS had a 4 star + match since his return (are they?) so I guess you win that argument.

I'm not sure anyine will take the bet that he will have one in the next 6 months either. I mean match ratings are subjective, if he has to have a 4 star + match in your eyes then the odds are stacked against whoever wagers you.

What would you want to wager over the internet anyway!?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think the Money in the Bank Ladder Match was four stars. That shit was fucking great. Also, his match with Orton was fantastic. I'd defend his TV stuff heading into Money in the Bank as good, and his match with MVP as borderline great.

I don't see what the problem is. KK and BDC seem to be the only ones holding Y2J up to an unmeasurable standard.

[Jeritron]

K I'm back. I have yet to see someone point out a 4 star or better match Jericho has had since his return, and no one is willing to put anything on the line saying Jericho will have three or more 4 star or better matches in the next 6 months. I hear a lot of excuses.

No one argued that, and you have yet to even adress the questions asked, or pay attention to what is being said. I take it you're trying to fuck around here

[Funky Fly]

Scrolled through the first page, ignored the rest.

My 2 cents: I've enjoyed Jericho over the last few months (even made JBL look good in ring on Raw), but it seems like they're putting him back in that same IC champ/jobber to the stars role.

[El Fangel]

Yinno, My first thoughts on this topic were how long its been since he fucked sugarbutt.

[Kane Knight]

No one argued that, and you have yet to even adress the questions asked, or pay attention to what is being said. I take it you're trying to fuck around here

Argued what? BDC said he has seen nobody say anything of the sort, and then a bunch of excuse.

[BigDaddyCool]

No one argued that, and you have yet to even adress the questions asked, or pay attention to what is being said. I take it you're trying to fuck around here

I argued that. Infact that is the whole reason I started this entire thread. I said Jericho hasn't had a 5 star match since his return. Then I said he hasn't even had a 4 star match since his return. You then proposed a gentlemen's bet about Jericho having a 5 star match in the next 6 months. I upped the ante on the bet say I don't think he can have at least 3 4 or more star matches in the next six months then asking what you want the stakes to be.

So I guess someone is arguing that, being the intial argument.

[addy2hotty]

No 5-stars yet for sure, but he's certainly getting better. He was VERY rusty when he came back and it showed.

Since MITB was announced, he's upped his game in his promos, in-ring work and to say that I enjoyed his win over OR Punk on Monday is an understatement.

IMO Jericho's doing just fine and I'd even go as far as saying that he'll be a World Champion again by the end of the year.

[Kane Knight]

No 5-stars yet for sure, but he's certainly getting better. He was VERY rusty when he came back and it showed.

Since MITB was announced, he's upped his game in his promos, in-ring work and to say that I enjoyed his win over OR Punk on Monday is an understatement.

IMO Jericho's doing just fine and I'd even go as far as saying that he'll be a World Champion again by the end of the year.

I can see most of your argument, but you totally lost me at World Champion.

[The Show Off]

That is right, it has been over 6 months now since Chris Jericho made his big comeback. My question is, has he had a single 5 star match yet?

He hasn't.

That's what you want everyone to say. You don't want explanations that are perfectly reasonable, you just want people to agree with you. Or you want to see people futilely try to reason with you. Okay. The short answer is...

He hasn't.

[addy2hotty]

I can see most of your argument, but you totally lost me at World Champion.

Hey, if Kane can again....

[Mooияakeя™]

I don't think he's "SAVED US", RAW was ok considering how it was a few months before it. But as someone said above, I can't see areason why he's made it worse.

To be honest. Santino saved us all. He's gold. Give him the strap back. He can kill Chris Jericho and his Jericho Walls.

[Jura]

Santino's destiny is already planned out. He will just be a comedy thing.

[Kane Knight]

Hey, if Kane can again....

The ECW Championship counts? :?:

Santino's destiny is already planned out. He will just be a comedy thing.

Which will be moot in six months when the IWC crush is over.

[Jeritron]

How are we going to agree on whats a 4 or 5 star match? I mean, you can easily just turn around and say it wasn't "up to his standards" or "was only better than normal" or something?
I say the terms of the bet are we see what people say when this gets bumped in 2 months. But the match we're looking for is 5 stars by your standards, which as you say, he can and should be having all the time. Which is of course ridiculous because nobody has 5 stars that frequently, it's impossible given limitations by the company.
So, if we're not even on the same page about what a great match is and how responsible he is for not having them, how do we manage this bet? It's over an intangible thing. In a few months you can just take a great match and say, "he wasn't going fast enough"

You also still didn't answer a single one of my questions.

[dablackguy]

The only reason this discussion seems to persist is because of the 4 or 5 star matches Jericho has failed to put on. Then again, who on any of the rosters is capable of said match?

The only thing wrong with Jericho in my opinion since his return is that he was set to a standard that was completely unreasonable. The save us thing while being interesting and garnered discussion, really over-hyped the guy.

If you wanna argue he hasn't had a 5 star match fine, but who has? To say he hasn't improved raw in any way, imo, is completely untrue.

[dablackguy]

I don't think he's "SAVED US", RAW was ok considering how it was a few months before it. But as someone said above, I can't see areason why he's made it worse.

To be honest. Santino saved us all. He's gold. Give him the strap back. He can kill Chris Jericho and his Jericho Walls.

I could see it... if I thought there was more to him than just the mic skills

[Kane Knight]

The only reason this discussion seems to persist is because of the 4 or 5 star matches Jericho has failed to put on. Then again, who on any of the rosters is capable of said match?

The only thing wrong with Jericho in my opinion since his return is that he was set to a standard that was completely unreasonable. The save us thing while being interesting and garnered discussion, really over-hyped the guy.

If you wanna argue he hasn't had a 5 star match fine, but who has? To say he hasn't improved raw in any way, imo, is completely untrue.

Howabout 4 stars?

[BigDaddyCool]

Flair and HBK had a 5 star match.

[BigDaddyCool]

You know, I doubt Jericho is even as good as you claim he is. I mean Eddie could carry a bowl of pudding to a 4 star classic no problem, and you all are bitching Jericho hasn't had the right opponets to put on 3 star matches with.

[Kane Knight]

Jericho is a great wrestler. I don't know if he's gotten lazy, stopped caring, or what, but he's just not Jericho these days. Halfass Jericho is still kinda entertaining, but he's not the same guy.

[Fabien Barthez]

The main question of this thread is, has he put on a showstealing match since his return. No is quite simply the answer. The thing BDC is getting at, is that if he is proclaimed by IWC to be the dog's bollocks, then he should be stealing the show in his PPV matches.

Television is tricky, because its usually a short timeframe and the finish is the important selling part. But I don't think he has had a standout match since his return. I also agree that he seems to slow the pace alot more than i've ever seen and you can see, and hear him calling the moves, especially in the early part of matches when the crowd is cold.

Excusing it that he is working JBL, thus restricting his ability to put on a great match? Come on. JBL had some really good matches when he was the World Champ, so surely adding that with Jericho would produce a good match. Its certainly unlucky that he doesn't have WCW cruisers, or Eddie, or Benoit or Angle to put on a show with anymore... But it certainly didn't take Chris Jericho for Angle, or Benoit or Eddie to steal the show regularly.

I think he needs a total gimmick change, heel turn, the whole lot to give him the chance to work a match and a crowd in a different way. At the moment, breaking the walls down and the same move set isn't lighting any fires.

Thats my 2 cents.

[BigDaddyCool]

Thank you Fabien, that is my point exactly. Plus Jericho was lazy before he left and still lazy now.

[Kane Knight]

The main question of this thread is, has he put on a showstealing match since his return. No is quite simply the answer. The thing BDC is getting at, is that if he is proclaimed by IWC to be the dog's bollocks, then he should be stealing the show in his PPV matches.

Television is tricky, because its usually a short timeframe and the finish is the important selling part. But I don't think he has had a standout match since his return. I also agree that he seems to slow the pace alot more than i've ever seen and you can see, and hear him calling the moves, especially in the early part of matches when the crowd is cold.

Excusing it that he is working JBL, thus restricting his ability to put on a great match? Come on. JBL had some really good matches when he was the World Champ, so surely adding that with Jericho would produce a good match. Its certainly unlucky that he doesn't have WCW cruisers, or Eddie, or Benoit or Angle to put on a show with anymore... But it certainly didn't take Chris Jericho for Angle, or Benoit or Eddie to steal the show regularly.

I think he needs a total gimmick change, heel turn, the whole lot to give him the chance to work a match and a crowd in a different way. At the moment, breaking the walls down and the same move set isn't lighting any fires.

Thats my 2 cents.

You're looking at things logically, something that will get you scorned and ignored out of inconvenience.

[Londoner]

Well i've just seen jericho's match v cm punk, good stuff imo. Oh and btw, it hasn't been over 6 months dumbass. And don't even tell me that bdc has a point here, he knows what he's doing, even if jericho had a 5 star match bdc wouldn't notice it.

[Fabien Barthez]

You're looking at things logically, something that will get you scorned and ignored out of inconvenience.


Well I don't really care what net marks think. I mean, nobody will ever deny that Bret Hart was one of the best wrestlers of all time, but did his gimmick, and mood set get stale as hell, especially in the last 2 years of his career? Hell yes.

And that would be fine if he was the Undertaker, but he was renound for his wrestling skill and the way he could bring the best out of anybody, and he was failing to live up to his standard at that point.

Doesn't mean I don't admire The Hitman, its just how it is.

And nobody in this entire discussion is suggesting Jericho isn't an outstanding wrestler, he has simply settled into the same casual and lazy rut he was in before he left, and as people who enjoy high standards from great wrestlers, its an observation worth making.

[Fabien Barthez]

Well i've just seen jericho's match v cm punk, good stuff imo.

Who is talking about a 6 minute match for TV? Nobody in this thread mate.

[Rob]

Flair and HBK had a 5 star match.

Nah they didn't.

[Londoner]

Tbh i think you guys are over judgmental of jericho atm, for one thing you can't just expect 5 star matches every week from him especially when he's had a lot of time off. And also, he has been pretty entertaining and certainly does the IC title no damage with him being the champ.

[Jura]

No one watched the MVP v Jericho match? :( I'm not saying it was 5 stars or anything but that was way better than Punk v Jericho and I'm not even an MVP fan.

[Londoner]

Fabien, bdc asked me about it yesterday. Like i said, bdc knows what he's doing.

[Londoner]

I saw the mvp jericho match also, again, very good stuff.

[KingofOldSchool]

Scrolled through the first page, ignored the rest.

My 2 cents: I've enjoyed Jericho over the last few months (even made JBL look good in ring on Raw), but it seems like they're putting him back in that same IC champ/jobber to the stars role.

Were you actually expecting more?

[Londoner]

im still expecting to see jericho main eventing again in future, can't expect to go straight to the top within the first few months ffs.

[Fabien Barthez]

im still expecting to see jericho main eventing again in future, can't expect to go straight to the top within the first few months ffs.


This has nothing to to with his placement on the card, it is about the standard of his work. The two things are not the same. The majority of Benoits best work in WWE was based around the IC title. Why don't you argue the point that is at hand?

[Rob]

His work has been fine since his comeback.

[Londoner]

I'm just picking up on the points being raised in this thread fabien, idiot. And rob is correct.

[Fabien Barthez]

Then put that in the 'Its been 6 months... and how many OK matches has Jericho performed in.' Thread.

Im not trying to be a dick or anything, but the main point of this thread has been virtually ignored by most who have posted in it.

[Londoner]

Thing is, it hasn't been 6 months has it?

[Kane Knight]

im still expecting to see jericho main eventing again in future, can't expect to go straight to the top within the first few months ffs.

You know, after calling BDC out on it not being over six months, I really can't believe you said that. I mean, isn't that EXACTLY what he did?

[Londoner]

You talking about his one main event match v orton or something? Thats not what im on about..

[Kane Knight]

And yet you're still "on about" the technicality of the timeframe?

[Londoner]

I still don't get your point. Yes he had a match agaisnt orton, but he was never gonna win it. I was saying there was no way he was gonna be pushed to the top CONSISTANTLY straight away. Especially with hhh/cena and orton running the show.

[IC Champion]

Jericho was never involved in a program with the World Champion Randy Orton, I think KK is making things up again....:roll:

[Londoner]

And what was the point in that post IC?

[Kane Knight]

I still don't get your point. Yes he had a match agaisnt orton, but he was never gonna win it. I was saying there was no way he was gonna be pushed to the top CONSISTANTLY straight away. Especially with hhh/cena and orton running the show.

LOL yeah, I see your point. After he's been jobbing for a year, THEN he'll rise to the top amidst Triple H and Orton and Cena running the show. Perfect sense, mang.

[Londoner]

He's not jobbing though is he? Didn't he just beat the MITB winner/the ic title recently?

[IC Champion]

And what was the point in that post IC?

I was merely pointing out how Jericho wasn't involved in a main event program with Randy Orton.

[Kane Knight]

He's not jobbing though is he? Didn't he just beat the MITB winner/the ic title recently?

So one win now equaals not jobbing? Christ, even Val Venis won once or twice. And Stevie Richards.

[Londoner]

That's two wins i've mentioned actually. Plus its not like he's been seriously jobbing every match now is it. Only time i can remember him being booked to looked like a jobber was v big show when he got himself dq'ed which makes no sense, other than that everythings been fine imo. But, believe what you want, its fuckin late here so im off now.

[Kane Knight]

I was merely pointing out how Jericho wasn't involved in a main event program with Randy Orton.

Knight Fact: Kane still believes that Chris Jericho is never coming back.

[Funky Fly]

Were you actually expecting more?

The only thing I was expecting was for him to be feuding with better wrestlers than JBL and Hardy. I pretty much gave up on another world title reign years ago, and now I just wanna see great Jericho matches.

[Fabien Barthez]

I pretty much gave up on another world title reign years ago, and now I just wanna see great Jericho matches.

Exactly. And win or lose, card position aside, That is the crux of this discussion, and how they are yet to happen. Chris Jericho can put on great matches, supposedly with anyone. So where are they.

And please don't anyone come back with 'well, he had a good 5 minute match on raw this week' because i heard it and it still doesn't matter to the point of this thread.

[BigDaddyCool]

TL, Jeritron already pointed out that it hasn't been 6 months, and I execpted that I made a mistake in saying that. Move on. Jericho is still putting on lackluster matches for a man of his supposed abilities.

[BigDaddyCool]

Again, Fabien gets what I'm saying. Jericho is one of the guys the IWC constantly puts over as a wrestler than can put on classics with damn near anyone.

[Kane Knight]

And please don't anyone come back with 'well, he had a good 5 minute match on raw this week' because i heard it and it still doesn't matter to the point of this thread.

The match wasn't even that good. It's mostly a function of two smark darlings being in the ring at the same time. And people can pull this bullshit about how I only think so because I hate Punk (I don't really hate Punk, I mostly think that someone who is gushed about should be more than mediocre), but I'm a Jericho fan as well. I'm just not so blindly fanatical about my fanships that I will stop calling a lackluster match lackluster.

And while the match itself may not be to the point, the reaction kind of is. The defense of Jericho here seems to primarily be from that standpoint. Someone as amazing as Jericho doesn't need excuses, and he shouldn't need to be fellated, either. Jericho's been lazy. Period. I'm sorry if this gets people all Butthurt because of their closet homoerotic feelings for Jericho (Can't think of why else people would hump his leg so thoroughly), but really, evidently the only counterclaims seem to be srawmen or ad hominems.