Better Wrestler #80

[Jeritron]

Flyin' Brian Pillman soars past the Road Dogg and move on to another round. This round, he'll meet someone who knows a thing or two about flying...





http://www.floydscabana.com/images/pwt100_2/79_pillman.jpg
Brian Pillman

VS


http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8194/ultimodragonhy2.png
Ultimo Dragon



3 days.


<SELECT><OPTION selected>Better Wrestler History<OPTION>#1.RVD vs CM Punk (34-19)</OPTION><OPTION>#2.RVD vs Santino Marella (36-4)</OPTION><OPTION>#3.RVD vs "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig (15-23)</OPTION><OPTION>#4."Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig vs Tully Blanchard (30-5)</OPTION><OPTION>#5."Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig vs Chris Jericho (15-23)</OPTION><OPTION>#6.Chris Jericho vs Brock Lesnar (34-10)</OPTION><OPTION>#7.Chris Jericho vs William Regal (38-14)</OPTION><OPTION>#8.Chris Jericho vs Eddie Guerrero (21-23)</OPTION><OPTION>#9.Eddie Guerrero vs Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat (26-7)</OPTION><OPTION>#10.Eddie Geurrero vs "Macho Man" Randy Savage (26-19)</OPTION><OPTION>#11.Eddie Guerrero vs Diamond Dallas Page (39-8)</OPTION><OPTION>#12.Eddie Guerrero vs "Stone Cold" Steve Austin(19-28)</OPTION><OPTION>#13."Stone Cold" Steve Austin vs Chris Benoit (32-13)</OPTION><OPTION>#14."Stone Cold" Steve Austin vs Jake "The Snake" Roberts (29-10)</OPTION><OPTION>#15."Stone Cold" Steve Austin vs Sting (36-16)</OPTION><OPTION>#16."Stone Cold" Steve Austin vs Bret "The Hitman" Hart (32-31)</OPTION><OPTION>#17.Hulk Hogan vs John Cena (15-24)<OPTION>#18.John Cena vs Lex Luger (32-6)<OPTION>#19.John Cena vs Ultimate Warrior (29-18)</OPTION><OPTION>#20.John Cena vs Dean Malenko (9-40)</OPTION><OPTION>#21.Dean Malenko vs Billy Kidman (31-7)</OPTION><OPTION>#22.Dean Malenko vs Ultimo Dragon (22-15)</OPTION><OPTION>#23.Dean Malenko vs Taz (15-17)</OPTION><OPTION>#24.Taz vs Sabu (38-2)</OPTION><OPTION>#25.Taz vs Jeff Hardy (25-16)</OPTION><OPTION>#26.Taz vs Bam Bam Bigelow (26-12)</OPTION><OPTION>#27.Taz vs Triple H (24-22)</OPTION>><OPTION>#28.Edge vs Christian Cage (22-23)<OPTION>#29.Christian Cage vs Raven (23-22)</OPTION><OPTION>#30.Christian vs Matt Hardy (22-19)</OPTION><OPTION>#31.Christian vs Ted Dibiase (24-25)</OPTION><OPTION>#32.Ted Dibiase vs "Rowdy" Roddy Piper (16-19)</OPTION><OPTION>#33."Rowdy" Roddy Piper vs "The British Bulldog" Davey Boy Smith (25-19)</OPTION><OPTION>#34."Rowdy" Roddy Piper vs Bob Backlund (26-6)</OPTION><OPTION>#35."Rowdy" Roddy Piper vs The Dynamite Kid (26-13)</OPTION><OPTION>#36."Rowdy Roddy Piper vs Ric Flair (16-19)</OPTION><OPTION>#37.Ric Flair vs Bret "The Hitman" Hart (19-17)</OPTION><OPTION>#38.Ric Flair vs Andre "The Giant" (28-5)</OPTION><OPTION>#39.Ric Flair vs Triple H (26-11)</OPTION><OPTION>#40.Ric Flair vs Shawn Michaels (20-26)</OPTION><OPTION>#41.Shawn Michaels vs Jushin "Thunder" Lyger (26-15)</OPTION><OPTION>#42.Shawn Michaels vs Perry Saturn (36-12)<OPTION>#43.Shawn Michaels vs The Undertaker (29-11)</OPTION><OPTION>#44.Shawn Michaels vs The Rock (28-30)</OPTION><OPTION>#45.The Rock vs Trish Stratus (21-16)</OPTION><OPTION>#46.The Rock vs Lance Storm (22-19)</OPTION><OPTION>#47.The Rock vs Owen Hart (18-12)</OPTION><OPTION>#48.The Rock vs Kurt Angle (5-24)</OPTION><OPTION>#49.Kurt Angle vs Ken Shamrock (36-5)</OPTION><OPTION>#50.Kurt Angle vs Rob Van Dam (23-13)</OPTION><OPTION>#51.Kurt Angle vs "King Kong" Bruiser Brody (20-10)</OPTION><OPTION>#52.Kurt Angle vs Mick Foley (31-6)</OPTION><OPTION>#53.John Morrison vs Braden Walker (36-11)</OPTION><OPTION>#54.John Morrison vs Kofi Kingston (34-5)</OPTION><OPTION>#55.John Morrison vs CM Punk (14-28)</OPTION><OPTION>#56.CM Punk vs Tajiri (28-20)</OPTION><OPTION>#57.CM Punk vs Booker T (24-23)</OPTION><OPTION>#58.CM Punk vs Samoa Joe (53-4)</OPTION><OPTION>#59.CM Punk vs "Macho Man" Randy Savage (19-36)</OPTION><OPTION>#60."Macho Man" Randy Savage vs "Adorable" Adrian Adonis (47-2)</OPTION><OPTION>#61."Macho Man" Randy Savage vs Goldberg (49-4)</OPTION><OPTION>#62."Macho Man" Randy Savage vs "Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig (31-38)</OPTION><OPTION>#63."Mr.Perfect" Curt Hennig vs "Diamond" Dallas Page (51-17)</OPTION><OPTION>#64."Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig vs William Regal (37-18)</OPTION><OPTION>#65."Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig vs Brock Lesnar (48-4)</OPTION><OPTION>#66."Mr. Perfect" Curt Hennig vs Eddie Guerrero (39-40)</OPTION><OPTION>#67. Eddie Guerrero vs Arn Anderson (33-22)</OPTION><OPTION>#68. Eddie Guerrero vs Jake "The Snake" Roberts (37-36)</OPTION><OPTION>#69. Eddie Guerrero vs Sting (41-16)</OPTION><OPTION>#70. Chris Jericho vs Eddie Guerrero (45-18)</OPTION><OPTION>#71. Chris Jericho vs Rey Mysterio (63-3)</OPTION><OPTION>#72. Chris Jericho vs Kevin Nash (54-12)</OPTION><OPTION>#73. Chris Jericho vs Dean Malenko (39-9)</OPTION><OPTION>#74. Chris Jericho vs Ricky Steamboat (41-30)</OPTION><OPTION>#75. Masato Tanaka vs Mike Awesome (24-18)</OPTION><OPTION>#76. Masato Tanaka vs X-Pac (34-16)</OPTION><OPTION>#77. Masato Tanaka vs Rikishi (36-13)</OPTION><OPTION>#78. Brian Pillman vs Masato Tanaka (31-13)</OPTION><OPTION>#79. Brian Pillman vs Road Dogg (44-7)</OPTION></SELECT>

<SELECT><OPTION selected>Better Wrestler Hall of Fame</OPTION><OPTION>"Stone Cold" Steve Austin</OPTION><OPTION>Taz</OPTION><OPTION>Kurt Angle</OPTION><OPTION>Chris Jericho</OPTION></SELECT>

[Innovator]

Damn yous Jeri, gotta think about this

[Juan]

http://www.tpww.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=26&pictureid=290

'nuff said

[Xero]

Ultimo will not slip by Pillman, here.

[Lock Jaw]

Love Pillman... but Ultimo is Ultimo.

[Theo Dious]

As much as I've said over the course of the last few BWs, that I just don't get what people see in Pillman, I get what they see in Ultimo even less.

[Juan]

I get what they see in Ultimo even less.

Are you kidding me? Ultimo is regarded as one of the best wrestlers in the WORLD. Amazing wrestlers. He may not have the charisma of your HBK's, but I think his track record alone speaks to how amazing he is in the ring.

[Juan]

I'm not even into "puro" that much, but Ultimo is an exception. His matches with the Great Sasuke are some of the best I've ever seen.

[KYR]

Pillman.

[Juan]

Not to mention his matches with Dean Malenko and Jushin Thunder Liger

[Juan]

Given the track record of these polls, I *get* Ultimo Dragon not winning, but I do think he deserves more votes.

[mike adamle]

Ultimo hands down.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Pillman because he's better.

[midLfinger]

Better wrestler HAS to mean something more than fancy in-ring moves.

Personally, I base it on who I'd rather put the World Title on if I ran the company. Ultimo's not that guy. Pillman actually COULD HAVE been had he not died.

[KYR]

I think NARC could probably help you with the definition.

[Fabien Barthez]

Thats often the more marketable wrestler middlefinger (abstains from gay spelling).

Ultimo Dragon is hands down one of the best luchadores of all time. He got a raw deal at NY, due to WWE trying to push him off the back of Rey instead of using him a a lynchpin for a dying cruiser division.

Pillman has got this far on potential he never actually realised.

[Nicky Fives]

tough call..... I gotta go with Pillman again

[DaveBrawl]

Toughest one of these in a long time. Gotta go with the Dragon though just based off of the fact that I saw more of the dragon than Pillman and was amazed most of the time when he was done with his matches.

[Loose Cannon]

Not to mention his matches with Dean Malenko and Jushin Thunder Liger

Pillman had a match of the year with Liger

[Rammsteinmad]

Before I vote, can someone post some youtube videos of some of Ultimos BEST matches, because I haven't seen too much of him, and most of what I have seem involves him botching moves etc.

[midLfinger]

Thats often the more marketable wrestler middlefinger (abstains from gay spelling).

Ultimo Dragon is hands down one of the best luchadores of all time. He got a raw deal at NY, due to WWE trying to push him off the back of Rey instead of using him a a lynchpin for a dying cruiser division.

Pillman has got this far on potential he never actually realised.

I wasn't refering to marketability.

John Cena, Too Cool, Ultimate Warrior, Road Dogg, R-Truth, etc. are all marketable. That doesn't mean I'd want to put the World Title on any of them.

I'm talking about combining marketability with in-ring ability (and that's even broken down into the balance of skill set such as high flying, submission, technical, etc.) and mic skill and the ability to tell a story with the matches and execution of moves.

Brian Pillman was nowhere near perfect. In my opinion, however, Ultimo Dragon is further from that than Pillman was.

I agree that WWE gave Ultimo a bullshit run. Hell, I would say that WCW gave him a bullshit run. The truth is, however, that both runs are simply a reflection of what can be done with the guy. WCW gave him a mouthpiece and had him carrying around about 20 belts to impress people and it got stale fast. WWE didn't try too hard but, really, if he needs someone to speak for him it's hard to build real angles. Additionally, his matches weren't exactly about logic. It looks great. It's great as an exhibition kinda deal. I don't think it works as something you gotta see every week on TV. RVD got real stale on WWE doing the same moves that were amazing on ECW. But even he had more to offer outside of 'cool moves' than Ultimo.

But that's just my opinion. I'm sure everybody disagrees with something in there.

Also, not quite sure why calling the spelling of my SN 'gay' was totally necessary. No offense taken, though, in case you were wondering.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I love Pillman, but I really have to go with Ultimo on this one.... Sadly, it comes down to Dragon Gate, which Ultimo pretty much started, plus, he trained CIMA.

[Zeeboe]

Watched the Pillman DVD for the first time today, and it was great. I'm voting for Pillman, because not only was he a great wrestler, but he was a wonderful entertainer as well, and you have to have it all to make it in the wrestling business, and that is why Pillman was as over as he was. He was one of my favorites. May he rest in peace. :y:

[St. Jimmy]

LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* LET'S GO DRAGON *CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP*

[Xero]

SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[Jeritron]

SUPER DRAGON!

[Zeeboe]

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[Krimzon7]

Pillman. PERIOD!

[IRodC]

Ultimo. PERIOD.

[KYR]

Tampon. PERIOD.

[Zen v.W.o.]

pounce period!

[Xero]

Holy shit, dead tie.

[Loose Cannon]

lol a guy that was hot for 1 year beating a guy that was hot through multiple eras and managed to change with the times and get over everytime. I don't understand

[Theo Dious]

Are you kidding me? Ultimo is regarded as one of the best wrestlers in the WORLD. Amazing wrestlers. He may not have the charisma of your HBK's, but I think his track record alone speaks to how amazing he is in the ring.

And yet somehow he does nothing for me. Funny how that happens.

[Juan]

Indeed

[CSL]

Pillman. Better overall package. Dragon has one thing going (albeit a huge one) for him and it's the fact he's a fantastic worker. Pillman beats him in every other department however and he wasn't exactly a slouch in the ring himself.

[Theo Dious]

Pillman. Better overall package.

Dammit, this is better wrestler, not better genitals!

[Stealth-Icon]

Went with the dragon on this. I never really liked Pillman

[Zen v.W.o.]

You must be a simpleton.

[Zen v.W.o.]

I cant believe Pillman goes out to a guy dressed up in a fucking dragon costume.

[Destor]

this shits closed but the better man won.

[Loose Cannon]

I've been on this forum long enough to where this doesn't surprise me. Take Pillman out and Ultimo would of went over a lot of other "American" based wrestlers. and that's why I like the site because guys here have a strong passion for Indy's and Japanese wreslting and Luchalibre and all that.

I respect the votes of the Dragon fans (even though pancakes has zero posts here :roll: ) , but to me, the States has always been the spotlight of wrestling. From the NWA to AWA to the WWE. So it's hard for me to even consider a guy who got over for a couple months in the States over a guy who was involved in multiple big angles/matches throughout his 8 year run in National Promotions in the states.

Ultimo is a very underated wrestler if you were to take into acount the thoughts of every wreslting fan ever. He probably wouldn't get the respect that he deserves. But to me, Pillman just has just left so much more on the table and such a lasting impact/legacy then Ultimo ever will

[Destor]

Ultimos legacy in Japan > Pilman's legacy in the states WITH EASE.

[Loose Cannon]

I understand that, but Japan is not as popular as the States when it comes to wrestling. I guess that's another debate, but to me, Japan is where guys go to start out and learn how to wrestle to get to the states (WWE now). I bet most wrestling fans know nothing of what Ultimo did in Japan. I'm not saying it's not important, but it's the truth. Only your hardcore fanbase would care enough

[Zen v.W.o.]

Wrestling is probably bigger in Japan than it is in the states to be fair.

But the thing is, half the people in here know nothing about Ultimio's career in Japan, and may have only heard about it through some manner.

Point is, for us who follow wwe right now, and any other american promotion that was or still is running today, Pillman easily left a bigger influence and better body of work.

Ultimo winning this thing is fucked up.

[Nark Order]

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[Nark Order]

I cant believe Pillman goes out to a guy dressed up in a fucking dragon costume.

What is your point? Other guys I would put over Pillman include a guy that pretends that he is a dead guy, a midget who dresses like a mexican superhero, a 45 year old balding man that claims he is still sexy, and a fat guy with a huge beard that wears flannel and has multiple personality syndrome.

Stop acting like dressing like a Dragon is out of the ordinary in professional wrestling. You know who also dressed like a dragon?

http://rickythedragonsteamboat.com/graphics/rickydragon.jpg

[Zen v.W.o.]

Steamboat, so what's your point?

Pillman is better than him too.

[Juan]

Wow

[Nark Order]

lol Zen, just stop.

[thedamndest]

Might be quicker to ask Zen to make a list of people Pillman is not better than.

[CSL]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n38/von_muff/zens.jpg

[Destor]

lol Zen, no way.

[Zen v.W.o.]

You all know like one good match he had with Savage, and here you are all going LOLZ, ahahahaa...

[CSL]

I take it that's the only Steamboat match you've ever seen

[Zen v.W.o.]

I take it that's the only Steamboat match you've ever seen

Naw dude, I've seen his Flair series, and many of his tag matches within the wcw.
Steamboat was one of my faves in the mid 80's while watching the wwf, but he was surpassed by many.

[Nark Order]

Naw dude, I've seen his Flair series, and many of his tag matches within the wcw.
Steamboat was one of my faves in the mid 80's while watching the wwf, but he was surpassed by many.

By who? Wait, let me guess. Bret, Owen, Bulldog, and Pillman?

[Xero]

I have to wonder if Zen started blowing Pillman before or after he was in the Hart Foundation.

[thedamndest]

Zen, who is better: Ultimo or Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart?

[Nark Order]

Dear Diary,

Bret Hart is awesome.

See You Soon,
Zen

[Xero]

Dear Diary,

Bret Hart is awesome.

See You Soon,
Zen

Repeat for 25 years.

[Loose Cannon]

You should put Dragon against Liger

[Loose Cannon]

or Tiger Mask

[CSL]

Which one?

[Zen v.W.o.]

I have to wonder if Zen started blowing Pillman before or after he was in the Hart Foundation.

Before. I started liking Pillman approx mid 95, when I got more into wcw.

When I found out he was trained by the Harts, that was like an incredible moment of realization for me that the true greats all come through the dungeon at some time in their lives.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Zen, who is better: Ultimo or Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart?

Ultimo is the better wrestler.

But Pillman is better than Ultimo.

Here is a listing of pretty fucking awesome wrestlers:

Bret
Pillman
Owen
Bulldog
Niedhart
RODDY PIPER
Austin
Taker
Raven
Hennig
Edge
HBK

[Arashi Kage]

oh man, I've been off T-P-dubya dubya since Wednesday night, I missed this whole round of voting.

I could have had the tying vote for Pillman.:nono:

[Loose Cannon]

oh what th fuck :mad:

take it Bret

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[DarKCentaur]

Ultimo is the better wrestler.

But Pillman is better than Ultimo.

Here is a listing of pretty fucking awesome wrestlers:

Bret
Pillman
Owen
Bulldog
Niedhart
RODDY PIPER
Austin
Taker
Raven
Hennig
Edge
HBK

:wtf:

[Zen v.W.o.]

You dont like Raven?

[DarKCentaur]

I do, but he's nowhere NEAR the same level as the rest of the guys you listed.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Not even Jim Neidhart?

[Testicle]

Not even Jim Neidhart?


Oh come on now, everyone is better than Neidhart. :roll:

[Nark Order]

Ultimo is the better wrestler.

But Pillman is better than Ultimo.

Here is a listing of pretty fucking awesome wrestlers:

Owen

I can't believe you that you would have Ultimo Dragon lose to a guy that dressed up in caution tape and wore a fucking blue superhero costume!!!!!!111

[Nark Order]

My original point Zen, which I don't think you really got, was that you can make anything in professional wrestling sound absolutely fucking ridiculous with the right tone. Savage dressed up like a christmas ornament half the time and I would say he's better than Pillman.

[Fabien Barthez]

This thread is awesome.

You tell 'em, Zen!! Ataboy!

[Savio]

awww I would have voted pillman

[Destor]

Jerry, I love what you've done with the place. :D

[USAUSA1]

I made it on time(not really)

Ultimo Dragon is a better wrestler that had a bigger impact.He influence not only Jr Heavyweight wrestling in Japan but Lucha Libre and cruiserweight wrestling as well.

Pillman really didn't do anything close to Dragon level of impact. Jumping from WCW to ECW was not a big Impact. If anything,Austin transition was WAYYYYYYYYY better. Hollywood blondes was a great tag team but nothing groundbreaking. The early lightweight stuff with Liger had a small influence in the US but it was nothing new everywhere else.

Let's not talk about matches. Dragon matches in 97 ALONE is better than Pillman's in his whole career.

[Triple Naitch]

What country do you reside?

[Nark Order]

Pillman is one of those guys the smarks just have a massive hard on for. Never understood why he is so big on here.

[Loose Cannon]

Pillman is one of those guys the smarks just have a massive hard on for. Never understood why he is so big on here.

he's not really that big on here. Maybe a couple threads a year mention him

[Jeritron]

Not starting the next round until the debate is settled. I want to crown a winner in here too

[thedamndest]

I think the American Brian Pillman has run it's course.

[USAUSA1]

Time to move to the next round, Pillman run is over. He just ran into a guy that's done more.

[Zen v.W.o.]

He ran into a fucking piece of crap.

[Loose Cannon]

American fans remember Ultimo the most for slipping at Mania. :lol:

[USAUSA1]

Well, if you going by that standards. Pillman last American image was feuding with Goldust wearing a dress.

[Zen v.W.o.]

No it wasn't. He was still feuding with Goldie but he had possession of Marlena and he was getting inside her dress.

[Nark Order]

I was wondering how you were going to make Pillman wearing a dress sound cool.