Is Flair the Greatest of All Time?
 

Just was thumbing through some of my old WWE magazines and found the RAW magazine from August, 2004. In it there's an article titled, "Why Ric Flair's Peers Think He's the Best Ever," and Harley Race, Arn Anderson, Ricky Steamboat, Greg Valentine, Bobby Hennan, Shawn Michaels and Triple H are all asked their opinion of Ric Flair and his place in history. Every one of them responds with overflowing praise and proclaims Flair the greatest wrestler in history.

Shawn Michaels, Flair's closest rival, has this to say:

"Ric Flair is the wrestler that's influenced me more than anyone else. He was a villain in the ring, but was still so cool, with the machismo, the wheeling and dealing. He always had the best clothes, the best women, the jewelry and the belts. And from a performance standpoint, he was
always the best part of the show. I always tried to pattern my persona and wrestling style after him for sure. I always felt I wanted to be the 90s version of Ric Flair. I was joking with him a while back about how I made a career out of stealing a ton of his stuff and telling everybody it was mine."

So what I want to know is: Do you folks here think Flair is truly the greatest of all time? Why or why not? And has his coming out of retirement and going to TNA lessen your opinion or respect of him at all?

I think Flair was a great character and entertainer with several memorable moments in wrestling's history, and in his prime he put on some great matches in NWA/WCW. He's obviously a legend and one of the best ever, but I don't think he's the greatest of all time. And I think his going to TNA and making a fool of himself, because he desperately needed to keep earning a paycheck, is sort of pathetic.

So what I want to know is: Do you folks here think Flair is truly the greatest of all time? Why or why not? And has his coming out of retirement and going to TNA lessen your opinion or respect of him at all?

I don't think there is one single greatest of all time

the greatest of all time

He's a close second behind HBM, imo.

We can all argue who the greatest wrestler is, however, the only true measuring stick that SHOULD be used is their drawing ability, and how much money they make for the company/themselves. David Meltzer compiled a list of the biggest draws in WWE history based on gates/ratings the wrestlers drew as Main eventers, here is the top 20.

1. Bruno Sammartino

2. HULK HOGAN
3. BOB BACKLUND
4. ARGENTINA ROCCA
5. HHH
6. UNDERTAKER

7. STEVE AUSTIN (Undertaker and HHH have passed him in recent years since he finished his career in 2003. Had he not retired at the age of 38 due to injuries, as well as missed what probably would have been his biggest drawing year in 1999 with neck surgery, he would have been No. 2 on this list by now. Nobody ever in company history was a bigger drawing card or merchandise seller then he was at his peak.)
8. THE ROCK
9. PEDRO MORALES
10. SHAWN MICHAELS
11. SUPERSTAR BILLY GRAHAM
12. MIGUEL PEREZ
13. BRET HART
14. BUDDY ROGERS
15. RANDY SAVAGE
16. JOHN CENA
17. KURT ANGLE
18. MICK FOLEY aka CACTUS JACK, DUDE LOVE, MANKIND
19. ANDRE THE GIANT
20. DR. JERRY GRAHAM




This list indicated Flair as no where close to the greatest of all time. I know you all may not like the list, but it is fact, Money = Success.

BTW Flair is 34.

Like most of the top guys in WWE do? (Cena, Orton, ect..)

And ignoring the fact that Flair's best years were spent working for the NWA and WCW...

I never really got into him, so no he isn't one of the greatest to me.

Loopydate - 1

The Phantom - 0

See you in the shadows............

no.

one of the best talkers ever, loved the faceplants, but i have been entertained better overall by others (example, hbk). i perceive his biggest claim-to-fame to be his longevity, but that doesn't matter so much to me. cardinal rule of entertainment: always leave them wanting more. i've seen all i want of ric flair, and he still won't leave.

have to respect that he can walk into any wrestling company out there and instantly have a maximum profile job. but i have not watched him since leaving wwe and don't care to ever see him again.

hmm... i liked this question.

1. HBK
2. Hogan (no matter how many people hate it)
3. Austin
4. Flair
5. Undertaker

that's the way I see it.....

I like the flamboyant characters liek Macho Man & Warrior, but Flair just struck me as boring.

I guess I'm too young to appreciate how great he was in his day. Too used to seeing flabby man tits Flair jobbing to Carlito & shit.

He was awesome in the NWA

by his WWF days he was a bad parody of the Flair of the old school era

I am really torn because Ric Flair is a wrestling god, but what Shawn Michaels did in the past 8 years has shot him into that category. Nobody has done it better for longer than Ric Flair, but Shawn Michaels never had a bad run (in the ring). I hate to pussyfoot, but Ric Flair is 1A and Shawn Michaels is 1B.

Obviously, this makes Triple H 1C. :shifty:

Bullocks, you can't judge "the greatest" by money alone.

By your logic, Flair going to TNA would have increased his greatness (by virtue of ticket sales).

And going back to thread topic, imo Flair isn't the greatest, but he deserves top 5.

Iron Shiek numbearr one.

Once you get to a certain level of talent, it becomes personal preference, really. There is no definitive greatest.

I think five years ago, it would have been perfectly reasonable to say that Stone Cold Steve Austin was the greatest. The work HBK has done since that time has shot him past him in my opinion.

I also don't think longevity has been Flair's biggest friend. Had he legitimately retired at Mania 24, he MIGHT have been in the conversation.

oh man that makes me laugh that anyone thinks Stone Cold was the greatest

:lol:

No.

Well is looks 134 :shifty:
Going to TNA hasn't lessend my opinion of Flair as I like TNA. It has however weakened my opinion of the guy that let's him have any mic time. Flair is probably the worst promo guy on the scene at the minute IMO.

What's his job in TNA? He's not a fulltime wrestler, he's a manager. What's a manager's job? To get th guy(s) you're teamed with over/more over. Let's have a look at a recent Flair promo...

[To Angle & Crimson]

"You've got Jeff Jarrett, you and your dumb ass partner. And you've got Beer Money and you've got Kazarian. You've got these two guys who want a spot on the roster and want me to know their names, Gunner and...erm...his pal. You've got them two and Kazarian and you got the giant. How do you like those odds Mr Gold Medallist?"

So, whilst stood next to Rob Terry (who TNA seem adament on pushing) and near to Murphy he couldn't remember their names.

Nice one Ric! You're doing a swell job of getting the guys in Fortune over. [/sarcasm]

hogan is wrestling, was wrestling and will always be wrestling (yes, the double meaning is intended)

Well every list ive googled is like this

1a: Hogan (greatest and most recognized wrestler ever)
1b: Flair (second most recognized wrester ever)

I'm sure this question gets asked once a month.

The beauty of professional wrestling is that it is all predetermined, so it's down to opinions who the greatest is. The measuring stick in music would be number ones singles, albums and money made, in NFL by Superbowls won, football by number of world cups, etc. It's why we love it, and love discussing it!

Because it is a predetermined sport, and the usual measuring sticks such as number of titles or "drawing power" is determined by the company they work for, it leaves it to each wrestling fan and worker to make their own minds up who is the greatest. So I think determining greatest by "money making" ability is a non-starter to be honest. Bruno Sammartino was the top guy in a period where there was no competition (WCW, etc.) and the company was starting to push out territories.

It's Michaels, HHH, Arn Anderson's opinion that Flair is the greatest. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Flair IS the greatest, but won't flame someone because they say otherwise. Some kids will now think Cena is the greatest.

So basically what Fignuts said. In more words.

The greatest what wrestler? Entertainer? Draw?

To me the measurement of the greatest of all time in any sport not just wrestling comes down to performances. I don't judge people on how many titles they win in a pre-determined sport nor do I judge people on how much money they made a company for that matter what difference does that make?

To me the greatest wrestler of all time is Shawn Michaels. Why? First of all his peers believe he is the greatest wrestler of all time. Ric Flair gets an awful lot of love too but Ric's matches are repetitive for the most part. Shawn has put on more 5 star matches than any other wrestler in my opinion and on the biggest stage of them all.

I don't personally feel Ric Flair is the greatest and certainly not Hogan. The greatest wrestler should be the best performer, the wrestler who has set the bar so to speak and that would be Shawn Michaels in my opinion.

It really shouldn't be about drawing money. If it was then Hogan would no doubt be number 1 if we were judging on drawing money.

Wrestling is really more than that though it's about leaving a legacy and that's something Shawn Micheals has done. Even in his 40's and with the injuries he's had in the past he still out performs the whole roster, no I will go one better he out performs the majority of wrestlers on the planet I don't believe anyone can come close to matching that.

I don't think Shawn gets enough respect personally he is light years ahead of other wrestlers it's not about championships for him it's about leaving the legacy I talked about.

Flair is the greatest of all time.

He's second best of all time as far as in ring ability behind Shawn Michaels.

He's top five as far as mic ability.

He's top ten as far as being a draw.

He's the greatest wrestler of all time as far as putting others over.

He's the greatest of all time as far as being willing an able to be a face or a heel.


When I'm done with school I'm going to make an extensive Top 100 wrestlers of all time using all those criteria to make a objective/subjective list. But I already know Flair is going to be number 1.

I'm glad I know that selling the nmost means you're the greatest. Now I can stop arguing about what the greatest movies of all time are. Now I know this list is the greatest movies of all time...

Greatest Movies of All Time
1. Avatar
2. Titanic
3. The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
4. Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Mans Chest
5. Toy Story 3
6. Alice in Wonderland (2010)
7. The Dark Knight
8. Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone
9. Pirates of the Caribbean: At The Worlds End
10. Harrt Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 1

Greatest Books of All Time
1. The Bible
2. Quotations from Chairman Mao (The Little Red Book)
3. American Spelling Book
4. The Guinness Book of World Records
5. The McGuffy Readers
6. A Message to Garcia
7. The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care
8. World Almanac
9. The Valley of the Dolls
10. In His Steps: "What Would Jesus Do?"

its all a personal choice. But everyones top 10 probably has the same guys in it. for example my personal top 10 are
1. Bret
2. HBK
3. Austin
4. Flair
5. Hogan
6. Rocky
7. HHH
8. Taker
9. Steamboat
10. Rey

Well, I'm willing to hear other opinions. Who do you think is better and more willing to turn heel or face and who is better at making superstars and putting others over?

Was Flair ever really over as a face?

There's only one "greatest of all time", and his name is "The Heartbreak Kid" Shawn Michaels.

Ric Flair probably was alot of wrestlers' inspiration, and they probably saw him as "the greatest" because of his "gimmick", his charisma, his mic ability, but he wasn't that great of an ACTUAL wrestler.

HBK combines all that, PLUS he was the best in the ring.

yes he was

go back and check out his 1983 run in Jim Crockett Promotions

He and Harley Race had a fantastic feud


This clip here tells you how over he was as a face

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="853" height="510" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2mZAVwpOvhU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I always hate to do this because it makes me sound like I don't appreciate how good Shawn Michaels was, which isn't true. But there is more to being "the greatest" than being the best in the ring. Let me go by the same criteria I was judging Ric Flair on...

Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time as far as in-ring ability is concerned.

Shawn Michaels is good on the mic probably Top 20 maybe Top 15 but not Top 10 of all time.

Shawn Michaels is probably between 15th and 10th when it comes to draw.

Shawn Michaels doesn't even rank as far as putting others over is concerned. Shawn Michaels has never "made" a fellow wrestlers career by having them go over on him. Not one. He was a main eventer in the WWF from '96 to '98 and from '02 to '10... That is over 11 years as a main eventer in the WWE and he never made one guy? This fact alone disqualifies him as far as "Greatest of All Time" is concerned.

Shawn Michaels also doesn't rank when it comes to willingness and capability of being face or heel. Don't get me wrong Shawn Michaels was a great heel and was also a great face. But with the exception of one month in the Summer of '05 Shawn Michaels hasn't been a heel in over a decade. Though he has the ability to be a heel he doesn't have the willingness to be a heel. Which is why he doesn't rank.

You can argue the pros/cons of wrestlers all day, everyone measures it differently just look at the better wrestler polls.

Like Al Snow said in a recent interview, It's not just in ring ability, it's about who draws amongst other factors more so in terms of who's "the best" is very debatable.

Yeah, it's very subjective. It's all about your own criteria.

There are too many factors to just say he's the greatest but he definitely is part of the Top 10 or elite ranks of wrestlers in history.

He was great in NWA, didn't do much in WWF both times (2nd time was more due to his age), and WCW tended to misuse him a lot of times especially during the trips to his hometown.

He might not have been the most athletic or technical in wrestling skills but made it up with great promos and charisma skills. Probably the only wrestler who could get the crowd to cheer by elbow dropping his coat without everyone assuming he's insane.

The "Wooooooo" might be the greatest catchphrase in history due to its longevity and the crowd loving to mimic it when Flair says it or for random stuff.

BTW, Shawn Michaels put over Chris Jericho, making him one of the Most Hated heels in recent memory.

Willingness and ability to be heel or face is just one of 5 criteria I use, so if you're not ranked in that one criteria doesn't mean you're useless. Ricky Steamboat doesn't rank there because he's always been face, but he's still great. And Goldberg is held accountable for never putting anyone over, that is a big mark against him.

As far as putting others over meaning "jack shit" is just a place where you and I disagree. I think putting others over is very important to show if you were a "great" wrestler. Wrestling is a perpetual story, and part of your job as a wrestler is making sure you've continued that story and helped it move forward (as well as being entertianing in the time you are there). Ric Flair made guys like Sting and Lex Luger who did a lot for the buisness themselves. Its very important that he got those guys over to continue the story of professional wrestling. "Making stars" is very important that's one of the reasons WCW was losing ratings and its the reason TNA isn't growing. So I think its very important when it comes to being considered a great.

Don't get me wrong though based on my 5 criteria even though HBK doesn't rank on two of them he's still one of the 5 best of all time because like I said in the ring he's the best ever and on the mic he was great, and he was a draw.

Chris Jericho was all ready a main eventer 7 years before that.

Did I say he made him a Main Eventer?

I said HBK, by letting Jericho beat him up, and beat him a couple times, put Jericho over as one of the most hated HEELS of all time. Jericho had been a heel before, but he never reached the level of heat that he reached when he worked with HBK.

No.

Wrestling is a business. The point of a business is to make money. Hulk Hogan made more money for himself and his employers than any other wrestler. Thus Hogan is the greatest wrestler of all-time.

edit: Inoki and Onita may be able to dispute my claim. I don't know how much Inoki made in his prime and I heard that Onita was worth nearly $0.5 billion when FMW was really rocking?

i disagree with this reasoning. movies are also a business, but i wouldn't automatically believe that the actor who made the most money ever is the greatest actor of all time.

wrestling is it's own unique, strange artform. to judge careers in it by comparative money draw alone erroneously ignores factors (i.e. cultural impact) and includes others (i.e. marketing).

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Didn't read anything below ^ line.

Thread Answer: Yes.

You mean "above" the line? Because "below" would be what you wrote.

Yes he WAS

I start from the last post and usually work my way up.

Ric Flair never drew a dime.

One of the greates promos of all time:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1TuJcuUv0Uw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


And more of Scott Steiner on Flair:

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sfC9pkUm9Ig" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-DnwRLV2zME" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>