Owen Hart.
 

This is in response to some of the stuff in the various fanboy wars topics and whatnot.

Owen was a big boy. He was a professional wrestler and had to have known the risks inherrent in any stunt, let alone one that involved coming down from the rafters.

I'm not saying that we didn't lose a good guy or anything, but can't we just agree that shit happens sometimes, and accidents are accidents?

Bret Hart has every right to be upset at the loss of his brother, and maybe the spot shouldn't have been done, but it was. And the fact is, it's a relatively safe stunt but there are always risks involved.

I know there are factors involved in terms of the wrestling world, but in the end, he went through with it and he died. And it was terrible, and it was a loss. But it was a mistake, and accident, and nobody should have an axe to grind over this. At least, none of us.

Well said. I particularly find myself annoyed with the people who find fault with Vince and the company for continuing the PPV. The people in attendance paid for a show, they had a right to expect one, and would have been well within their rights to leave if they felt it appropriate. Owen was a performer with a great love of the business, and in any performance situation "the show must go on."
But too many people can't accept that some things are just terrible, senseless mistakes, and must find a way to fix blame. It saddens me and damages Owen's memory that so many people must point fingers.

I don't blame anybody, it was a total freak accedent, nobody would have purposfully made that tragic event happen. If it were my brother I'd feel differently probably, so I don't discriminate against Bret for any ill feelings he has, he is totally right to feel however he wants to feel.

True. Wrestling is a dangerous business to be in and there's a risk of serious injury or death in just about everything wrestlers do. They get into the business knowing this and it's ridiculous that when an accident happens, it's always somebodies fault, and somebody should be held accountable for it. No, there is no true accountability to an accident. The only accountability could/should be placed on the one directly involved in the accident. Sometimes the outcome of the accident is horrific and tragic, but, like previously stated and relating to Owen Hart, he knew what he was getting himself in to and he took the responsibilities and consequences of his actions.

I completely agree. It's not as if this was the first time and entrance like that was done either. Hell, Sting had been doing it for a long time before Owen's accident.

Off topic sort of, but i bought The History of the WWE/F Championship and i watched Bret vs Owen for the title in the steel cage. That might be one of the best steel cage matches i've ever seen. The technical spots having to do with them diving for the door and trying to climb out were just about flawless and beautiful to watch. Incredible match.

And Sting's entrance, with the fall and dead stop, was far more dangerous.

yea, to me, that the best steel cage match of all-time. They used the cage door in a way nobody has ever duplicated. They actually made the door exit seem meaningful.

Here's the cage match, plus the Bret/Benoit tribute.

I was angry when I saw Sting doing the entrance too. I was actually watching that PVP when it happened, and it was definately surreal. I also remember developing a soft-spot for Jeff Jarret and Debra afterwards. WWE tried to do an interview with them before the match and they were both in absolute tears.

Anyway, RIP Owen. :y:

Edit: In my opinion, this is one of the best promos Bret ever gave. (Not saying alot in my opinion, but at least there was some kind of meaning behind it.)
Als, god I hated Vince as an announcer.

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Owen Hart is overrated.

I'm not really sure what you mean by 'overrated.' Owen is Owen. He was never 'the' champ. He was mid-card talent at best. He could get around the ring with the best of them, yes, but he was never anything special. (In my opinion)

I just always thought he was thought of and remembred as exactly what he was. However, he did contribute to shows ever time he was on them, and he's had some fantastic matches. (See the cage match posted.) :y:

Better than Bret? That would probably start another flame war.

I'm not saying he sucks, but the way fanboys put him over, he didn't deserve it.

He was never someone that should've been World Champion. He was a career mid-carder through and through.

Almost always, when I hear someone mention Owen, I always see how he was probably one of the best wrestlers to never hold the world and was one of the best ever.

Like KooS said, he was a great mid-carder and that's where it stops. He NEVER should have been World Champion.

Owen was going to get the gimmick of "The Game" that eventually went to Triple H. Owen could have been a main event draw, and would have been had he not died. I do not think he was overrated he was fantastic in every way that a wrestler needs to be.

Yeah, and Eddie was supposed to win the championship the week after he died.

Bull-fucking-shit.

You can belive what you want, say what you want but I really don't care.

Actually I heard that The Countdown to the Millenium gimmick was going to be for Owen Hart.

Y....2....H!

You can say anything after the fact.

I could say that Macho Man was supposed to do the WM9 run-in, but got injured and couldn't do it.

Doesn't make it true.

:y:

I always laugh whenver I hear this. What "gimmick" is there behind "The Game?" You know how that would have changed HHH's career? His theme song would be different and people wouldn't hold up "Game Over" signs when they wanted him to lose, or "Game Not Over" signs when he returns from an injury. Owen, had he not died, would have been called "The Game" Owen Hart and would have gone on being Owen Hart. I fail to see exactly what "gimmick" goes along with being called "The Game."

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Honestly I always thought "The Game" was a dumbass thing to be called anyways.

Actually it was going to be my dad, but he had to work that night. :shifty:

"The Game" gimmick is fairly generic anyway. He's a veteran wrestler who is considered one of the best and usually hangs out with a powerful crowd.

That can be attributed to about 10 high-profile wrestlers.

coulda woulda shoulda is stupid and I will put no emphasis on it. But I don't see Owen as overated just because a couple of posters on here say he should have been WWF Champ. It's takes more people then TPWW posters to get me to say anybody or anything is overrated.

He was one of the greatest heels in wreslting back in the mid 90's and was a solid IC Champ. He was a solid wrestler and could work anybody. It was retarted that the WWF didn't book Owen/HBK for the Title when Owen returned end of 97. There was money to be made there. Avenging the Harts was the perfect storyline.

Not just TPWW that thinks of him as a "great".

who else? back up your statement if you're going to post that.

Owen was definately a solid worker, good mid card talent. And I'll leave it at that.

I don't have any links off-hand, but there are forums all over that there is at least a portion that say he deserved the championship. I don't keep every God damn website I visit in my bookmarks.

alright, chill out bro. wow.

so, you're saying there are lots of people on message boards who say Owen deserved the championship? Do you know any people in real life that are wrestling fans who think this?

All the people I know that like wrestling know and care about the big names and that's about it. Owen never really comes up...

I hear a lot of "Owen was really good, it's a shame he died" stuff, but never the kind of fawning I hear online. He was solid. He was promising. He had a brilliant future ahead of him. But for all we know he might just as easily have gone to WCW after his WWF contract expired, languished in their midcard, and gone to TNA with his buddy Jarrett when it started up.

IF Goldberg didn't kick him in the head first.

What year is this?

No, but especially now that he's dead, we have the Kurt Cobain effect. People think he's a genius in the ring because every human is at least a potential necrophiliace.

We love to starfuck, and we love to fuck 'em even more if they lie real still.

Most of Owen's overrating comes from the fact that he's dead. Contrast to Ken Kennedy, or Carlito, or Punk, or Burchill (Before anyone whines at me, I like three of those guys...Doesn't make them any less overrated).

And yes, he's overrated. Even if he's only severely sucked off by the IWC, a large body of them do it. I won't, but I won't pretend that he's treated like an icon by wayyyyy too many people. You know, like Ellen DeGenneress.

No, I'm not saying Ellen is an OWen fan.

Well...the haircut...

BUT WE SAW HIM ON TV EVERY WEEK, AND I'M SURE THAT EVIL BASTARD VINCE MCMAHON PUSHED HIM OFF!!!!!!!!!!1111111111

Well I've never been much of an Owen Hart fanboy.

I didn't care much for him while he was on the roster, but now I kinda wish he was still around, because I know eventually he probably would've made a great heel main eventer.

Kurt Cobain effect or not, He was great on the mic, great in the ring, and had amazing charisma. He was an excellent talent, and is a great. Some of you people are freaking idiots.

OMG WE'RE IDIOTS BECAUSE WE HAVE OPINIONS!11!!1

In all honesty, there WAS a time when he could have been a Main Eventer, and it was right after Montreal. "The Black Hart" gimmick SHOULD and god damn do I mean SHOULD have done it for him.

It didn't for 2 reasons, one somewhat understandable, the other not at all.

1. Austin didn't want to work with him again. Sad, to be honest, but it was another freak accident and it almost ended his career. I can understand that.

2. Neither Shawn NOR Hunter wanted to put him over. Pure. And. Utter. Bullshit.

To Say he should have NEVER been a Main Eventer is disingenuous. He had a moment where it would have worked, but it wasn't taken advantage of. In all honesty, I think that when his WWE Contract expired, he would have said to hell with it all and retired altogether.

Not cool, certainly, but no member of the Kliq should have been working with Owen so soon after Montreal.

I have to say, not knowing about kayfabe and all that, Owen hart was my most hated wrestler ever. I just couldn't stand him...him and shawn michaels.

So for that reason, plus that he put on great matches, I don't feel he was over rated

The whole thing about the name "the game" came about in a promo. Someone said (maybe Austin) "This is not a game" and HHH's reply was along the lines of "screw that, I am the game." So it was just luck the way the name came about. not so sure about the gimmick tho (whatever the hell that is?!)

So what people are trying to say is that if Owen Hart didn't die, he wouldn't have had fucking awesome matches with Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio, The Rock and Chris Jericho? And all of them became world champions.

As for him being overrated - go find some pre 1991 stuff or just watch the Bret vs. Owen matches until your heart is content.

He was better than Sid Justice, and they made HIM the champion.... Owen could've been champ, too.

They continued the show that involved speeding Vince out in a stretcher and ambulance. After the fall.

They never told the live audience what went down. They didnt know a man had died. I am sure had they known, many would have also second guessed such a decision as to continue a ppv.
That's the wwe way of allowing themselves to go on with the show guilt-free for just a little while all for the green.
It's just the double standards...had it been a child of Vince, would the show go on? I doubt it.

Owen was easily a main event level talent. And he should have been champ.

There were plenty of eras that Owen should have remained in the main event scene. Mid 90's to be sure, and had their not been so much political BS occuring, after Montreal as well.

Owen as an athlete was fucking awesome, and imo, he picked up on any style of wrestling better than anyone I have watched. In many ways he was better then Bret in the ring.

You know what's overrated? Saying somebody is overrated due to their passing. Owen was one of the premier talents in the business while alive.
Not really his fault there were some pretty stupid people around that never picked up on that.

We can what-if all night long. I'm working on what did happen.

There were children in that audience. Would you come out and say to them "we're calling the show off because you just saw a man die?" I'm sure it was tough enough just for the parents in attendance to sit their kids down later and tell them what had happened; they had the right to deal with it in the way of their choosing. Had Howard Finkel or some equivalent come out and said "Owen's dead, go home" it would have caused serious confusion, as well as emotional shock. By finishing the show, they avoided making a bad situation worse. Was it the morally correct thing to do? That's an opinion. Would Vince have halted the show if Shane or Stephanie had died? Pure speculation. It's the decision I would have made.

If he hadn't of died he would have gone to WCW and become NWOwen

I always think after-Montreal they lost a perfect opportunity to put Owen into a major storyline.

Instead he wore Yellow and Black, said "Time for a Change" and joined the Nation.

To say he is the subject of a lot of internet gushing and fawning is true.

But I have to contest the claims that he never had the potential to go beyond midcard. Now, I'm not saying Owen would have ever had a lengthy run with the title, but it is not out of the question to consider that Owen could have conducted a main event feud, and/or had a caretaker reign with the big belt. Let's face it, there have been periods in the time since Owen's demise when WWE was crying out for a credible opponent for their champion of the moment. Owen could have filled that role, heel or face, more than adequately.

He's not 'the best wrestler never to hold the WWF/WCW World title' (my pick for that crown is Curt Hennig or maybe DiBiase) but he was more adaptable than simply just a midcarder.

If a bum like Bradshaw can get over in the main event after a decade of jobbing, then Owen certainly could have. All it would have taken was the right demeanor and the right storyline at the right time. No mean feat, but you can't write it off either. As it is purely speculation, and we'll never know, does it really matter?

And if people do genuinely believe Owen was due to be the "next Austin" or any other number of (probably) misjudged predictions, why knock him off their pedestals?

He had the potential to get the eventual push, kinda like HHH but on a lower level.

With all the people around him being pushed, he would have gotten his due.

I still maintain that the storyline would have been excellent had he been the culprite in the Who Hit Austin storyline.

But it's all pointless really. Owen was Owen and he did great things. I say let people believe what they want to believe about where he would have gone with his career, but it matters very little since his legacy is enough to be remembered for already. I'm sure his family and friends aren't worried about what kind of push he would have recieved, they just want their loved one back. Often times we view these great performers as something more or less than normal, but they're people. I think we should just be happy with what we got and to me it's always kinda seemed kinda off putting for people (nobody in specific) to say "I wish Owen was still around, he'd have great matches and finally have gotten a push". That's not really the right line of thinking when theres a family and children who wish he was still around so he could be the man they knew and loved. And that's not kayfabe, it's a true life heartbreaking swerve.

No way would have been a huge star in the level Rock, Taker and Austin. I'd put HHH, Cena and Foley a level below those guys but he could have easily been on the level of Jericho, Benoit, Michaels, Misterio, etc just purely on the quality of matches he would have had with those guys. Remember for like a 3 year spell, those guys couldn't have anyless less than a *** match. Owen was in their level of worker.

curious as to how you haven't put HBK on the same level as Taker. I would generally consider Rock and Austin to be top tier with taker and michaels on a fairly similar position.

Anyway, just an aside note

The entire company has never rotated around Michaels the way it has around Rock, Austin, and Taker. He's been the center and the champion, but he never dominated the entire WWF/E like those other 3 did.

Taker drew good money on top as champion. Michaels didn't. Undertaker is a bigger household name than Michaels.

Perhaps but you can't group him with undercard guys and not up with HHH and Foley.
As for the drawing of money, he was champion at a time when the company was in the gutter. Maybe overall he wasn't drawing money as big as the champion of the company when the overall product was big, but when you think about it he was the only draw on the card when champion in 96. What else did the company or the fans have other than the string of title defenses of HBK in 1996? He was huge for them at a time period where Bret was out of action, Austin wasn't quite over yet, and Hall and Nash were gone.
The occasions in which Taker was champion were at times when the product was on top, or in 97 when the product was on the rise and putting on a more quality show.

I know you have more facts than me, but I'm sure Michaels was drawing as champion in his third reign in 97-98 when he was leader of Degeneration X. And his main event with Austin, which as over as Austin was, was unquestionably instrumental in his skyrocketing popularity.
Michaels is a pretty well known name. He's HBK. He's of course not on the level of Austin and Rock, or not the household name that is the Undertaker, but he's a pretty big name.
I think it's a blatant misgrouping if you put him on par with Benoit and Jericho(circa2000) and rank him below HHH.

I'm not questioning your motives, but you do seem to dislike HBK immensely.

It's like this:

Austin/Hogan/Piper
Rock
Bret/Taker/HBK/Savage
and then the rest...

HHH and Foley drew far better on top. Michaels was champ during a bad time yes. So was Bret Hart and he drew fine. Michaels was also the champ after he came back and the numbers still weren't any better from when he won the title to when he lost it.

During his DX era, Michaels barely worked. He did 3 PPVs and next to no TV or house shows. 2 of those PPV's, the draws were Austin and Tyson.

As for me hating him, I don't hate anyone. And you have obviously missed all my posts over the last few years when I did nothing but praise his work since his comeback.

Are you serious? Rock drew more money in his best year than Piper has ever. And he also drew more money in a short run than Hogan did in his entire career.

Okay, first of all Bret had a supporting cast and the product was still the top wrestling promotion. Flash forward to right when Bret dropped the belt and took time off. Coincidentally, same exact time the nWo was on the rise and WCW became far and away the top wrestling promotion above the WWF. At this time period, Bret was out of action, Stone Cold had yet to emerge, and Hall and Nash had just flown the coupe.
Bret simply had a hotter product with a better roster below him and no stron compettition.
Shawn Michaels was carrying the weight of the whole promotion at that time basically. Nothing against these wrestlers, but he was making title defenses against Vader, Sid, Bulldog and a new, gimmicky Mankind.
The show just wasn't able to stack up and Shawn was it's only true strength. He was drawing. If they didn't have Shawn, they'd have been out of business that year.

As for HHH and Mankind, they were great champions and I'm not taking anything away from them. But they became champions during the height of the attitude era. In professional wrestling, when a promotion is hot it's hot. The ratings weren't going to suddenly drop off sharply due to new champions. They were good, but they weren't the bread and butter of the promotion at the time. Rock Austin and others were still coasting along and the attitude era was hot. In other words, they were over and entertaining champions and were able to maintain the draw, but people were coming to the arenas to see WWF Attitude, not them specifically.
It should be noted that, coincidentally, things cooled off a bit when HHH first won the title and he was a bit shaky at first. It was the Rock and Austin still drawing the money, along with the whole product and it took a while for him to get over. He was a top antagonist to compliment the big money face challengers.
Foley was a short time champion. He wasn't the top guy but rather a supporting character for the title scene preparing The Rock for Steve Austin, the top guy.

HBK held the title for nearly a year and defended against a string of opponents who wanted a crack at the top guy.

There's more that goes into how successful and over a champion is rather than just the superficial fact of "the company was in better shape while ___ was champion rather than ___" It has a lot to do with various things and the big picture.

I see your point, but you keep putting everything on external factors. He was a terrible draw because of this situation over here and that situation over there. If people like who's on top, they will watch the show no matter how shitty the card might be. You need to point the fingers at the guy on top and not the situations around him. He can control his own situation and not others.

Not everybodys Austin or Hogan. Doesn't mean they can't be solid draws. On paper Shawn wasn't a huge draw in 96, but in reality he was doing big things for that company.
He's also pretty well known, to adress the other accusation that he's not a big name. Once again, he's not Hogan or Austin, but he's up there.
The company was just overall shit and it's unfair to say that doesn't matter because he should draw the same anyways. Come on now.

I just need to get this out right now. You're fucking reatdred if you think that. Owen was going to do the Blue Blazer until his contract ran out (which it was coming up soon anyway, infact the IC Title run he was going to begin that night was a send off for him). Also, while he had managed to get the Blue Blazer gimmick over, let's remember that him doing that gimmick was considered a punishment for him being in the "dog house" in response to him refusing to do the Debra/Jarrett love triangle thing. So let's all pull this fucking bullshit, no marrit what so ever bullshit out of the conversation right now. He wasn't going to be "The Game" infact Hunter was already a heel by that point, and while he hadn't begun refering to himself as "The Game" the character was already in motion. So let's stop playing this dumbass game, people need to realise that while Owen was a good talent or whatever (personally found him, like his brother, to be as borring as watching shit sink) he was NEVER in line to win the Title. His name was never brought up as a potential flagship of the company. He wasn't going to win the title, nor should he ever have. Just like Dean Malenko, an INCREDIBLE talent, majorly over in several promotions, was just not ever in the play pen of serious World Title contenders.

The End.

Thank you.

Rob, you got those facts very wrong buddy.

In a short run, whatever the rock made doesnt touch what Hogan made during his entire run. WTF.

In fact, I dont credit the rock with that much, because in his time, everything was easy for him. He became big when wrestling was at it's highest peak, because of Austin, and the fact wrestling as a whole was great to watch due to the fact both companies, including ecw, were putting on fantastic programming.
I actually give more credit to guys like Taker, Bret and HBK for holding down a foundation that needed to stay afloat during hard times, then for the rock to basically ride the wave of momentum Austin surged it to.

Hogan made wrestling what it is, for everyone to follow. Amd without that ultimate villain, who by the way was Piper, Hogan doesnt become as big as he is either. Because whether you want to admit it or not, Hogan was drawing big numbers from fans wanting to see Piper get his ass handed to him by the Immortal one.

The Rock has made it big outside of the business in movies, but those people dont give a shit about what he's done in wrestling. He's gained a different audience. In the wrestling industry, The Rock is no higher than Hogan, Austin, Piper, or Andre as a matter of fact.

Why not? He was far better than for example, HHH.

People always use the "Piper had to be a great heel for Hogan to draw as a great face" line, but the Hogan/Piper run was pretty short, and while Piper was off having boxing matches and making movies, Hogan continued to draw bigger and better than ever.

Piper was important to the "kick start", no doubt, but too many people try to give Piper full credit for the creation of Hogan. Hogan was already the fastest rising, biggest drawing name in the business (bar maybe Bruno) before he ever went to work for Vince Jr. while in the AWA.

As for Undertaker... he is a level above Michaels. Taker was one half of the main event of the biggest drawing SummerSlam of all time, the "Highway To Hell".

By the way, why would WWE give Owen Hart an Intercontinental title run as a "send off" in the middle of the Monday Night Wars? Whilst he was performing a "punishment gimmick" too... some kind of punishment!

They were far too petty to do that.

LMAO! Boy there is just no limit to how far you will get the collective dick of the Hart family down your throat is there? Man if I was still swinging gay, I'd totally be able to jerk off to your posts as erotic fiction.

That is a pretty fucking retarded claim.

Come on, Guys, it's Zen. Nobody takes him seriously on anything related to Canada or Nirvana.

You've been KKK'd
 

Wow.

Good thing Zen keeps the Hart cock in his mouth. He needs his hands free. :y:

I believe The One is correct on everything he said EXCEPT the IC title run.

BTW, Owen was my favourite wrestler, loved him when he was a high flyer, loved with when he came back after knee surgury as a technical wreslter. Loved his ring work, loved his off beat style. I would have liked to see him (as my favourite) get a title run, but that wasn't in the cards... even if he was the King of H(e)arts.

I think it's pretty obvious Owen was far better than HHH. Take a look at them during their time together, and while Hunter was doing nothing at all memorable, Owen was putting on the best tag matches and the best singles matches not involving either Bret or HBK. And when Hunter started to make his rise up the ranks, guess who he dealt with? Owen Hart. Owen made Hunter look better in the ring and out of the ring.

As a wrestler there isnt a comparison. As a performer, sure you can compare.
But there's a rather substantial divide in terms of talent among Owen and Hunter as wrestlers.

HHH has basically been lucky in that he got to carry HBK's ballsack for a while, otherwise he'd still be toiling in hell as an american blueblood. After that, he worked with better talents then he was, but had HBK's political power to help him from having to job out to them.

And then, he fucking gets with the boss' daughter in order to keep himself on top of cards, where he has no reason being for such an extended amount of time. He has 10 title reigns, and about 8 or so too many.

The guy is one of the most overrated sacks of shit the business has ever seen.

I'm tuning up the band...

Wow this level of fanboyism is really adding some suckitude to this place.

Sorry but you are wrong. Rock had at least 3 straight years of making 8 million dollars plus. Only Austin made more money in one year.

Rocky was getting over before WWF boomed. There weren't even beating WCW in the ratings when he was getting over.


You can give credit to who you want. Nobody is denying they were big stars. But Rock made mega money. Look at the shows he headlined. Massive attendances, massive PPV buys, massive ratings. Best selling merch.

Average joe might not care what he did in wrestling but that doesn't mean he wasn't one of the 3 biggest draws in history. Only Austin beats him and only Hogan comes close. Piper and Andre? Don't make me laugh. If Rocky came back tomorrow, his name only would add a minimum of 200,000 buys to the next PPV. Piper's wouldn't add anything. That's already been proven. Andre might since it would be impressive if anyone came back from the day. Rock gained a different audience? Piss off dude. It's his wrestling fans PLUS new fans.

Seriously, I like you and all but this has to be a joke if you really think what you are saying.

Again, I don't know if this is a joke or not.

In 1999, I'd say Owen Hart and HHH were about the same ability wise. HHH fucking took off after this. He slacked later but in 2000, he was the best wrestler in the world. Owen might have gotten mad better too but there's no way you can say he was worlds better than HHH. And despite how HHH got his push, the bottom line is he got it and he ran with it. And now he is one of the legit top 10 draws of all time.