There really is room for an alternative in professional wrestling...
 

No Mercy reinforced one thing. That's the "we know what you want" policy the WWE holds. When Triple H came out and said he's what the fans want to see, despite A) Val Venis and Snitsky beating him on a recent poll, and B) the fans chanting "Y2J" noticeably, it made me sick to my stomach. It seems Vince McMahon, Triple H and the creative team live in a little bubble where their vision is the right one. They're absolutely awful at adapting.

TNA is not the answer. They are almost as bad. "Fire Russo" chants can be interpreted one way: stop with the shitty fucking ideas! I heard Dixie Carter defending Vince Russo in an article, saying he doesn't even write the things that get the "Fire Russo" chants, and I just want to slap her in the face and remind her the specifics are not what is important, but rather the fact that the fans are disgusted with what they are seeing, no matter who is writing it.

There are people that detract from them, but ROH is the closest thing to an alternative we have, just because they adapt well, and care more about what their fans think. They have been in a bit of a bubble recently, though. Sometimes ROH goes a bit weird with their booking, and puts a guy over for the hell of it. The fans want to see Chris Hero get a bigger role in the company, and that's not happening; Takeshi Morishima, as solid as he's been, was never the ROHbots' choice for ROH World Champion; and people had much higher hopes for The Age of the Fall than Jimmy Jacobs, Tyler Black, Necro Butcher & Lacey. They've been solid in their role, but people expected something bigger, I feel.

Right now, there is an opening for a company that listens to the fans. Right now, WWE and TNA remind me of a Simpsons gag. Homer is coaching Bart's football team, and Bart doesn't show up to play. Bart is obviously a shitty player, but Homer makes him the focus of the team. Nelson is the true bread-winner, and Homer turns to Nelson in the team's time of crisis. "Nelson...hand this note to the referee...we forfeit."

Very well put.

I actually got into an convosation today at work, since we seem to talk about it alot when we aren't dealing with customers at Gamestop, finally thing is, none of them are Cena marks, which is great, but we got on the subject of Triple H, which while I admit, he is an pretty good worker, and can sometimes give amazing to sometime shitty promos, the one dude, stated that Triple H is the best choice to lead the company, and while they may be true with all the injuries, and with him perheps being the most over star in the company that not injured, I still haven't even felt myself wanting another Triple H title run, after everything that we throught/knew was going on backstage.

But does thing really boil down to what the fans want, or what is actually best for the company, with doing what the fans want, you get mixed feelings due to so many wrestlers with existing fanbases in an company, it may not be best for the company..

While on the other hand, the best move may of been to use Triple H, granted WWE had an great chance to bring Jericho out tonight, and in a way, I was disapointed in him not showing up, I feel that it was best for us not to blow our loads all over it, which we would do anyways regardless, but Jericho facing Orton may of not been the best move, and wouldn't of been what was best for the company, but then again it doesn't give the fans what they want to see. The WWE took what they throught was the lesser of the two evils, and it was the wrong choice, even thru I've been dying for another Orton title run since his move to Smackdown a few years ago.

TNA has an goldmine that they are sitting on, and can't even seem to realize it, they are like the 14 year old kid, who got like 20 minutes before his parents come home, so he get's on the internet, and blows his load instantly looking at an low grade porn site...This reminds me of TNA...The TNA writers, whoever is doing the booking is that kid, who just randomly picks the first thing they sees, and premature blows there load on it, and then randomly clicking on another link, a couple of hours later and doing the same thing, there is no eye for what is good, and what is utter garbage.

Like I said TNA has an gold mine of talent that they are not even really even remotely using to 5 percent of there potential.

ROH I can't even touch much on, since I have been out of the loot with them for awhile, and I will agree, I think Chris Hero does deserve an main event role, because he seemingly has that potential to help them raise up to an new level, nothing against the likes of Brian Danielson, who is an amazing worker ("who I know is no longer champion) didn't really have that marketbility to help push them, but I agree with you noid, that out of the three, they seem to have something that the others do not...

Logic.

Dude, let the Val Venis thing go, he wasn’t going to main event a PPV, I’m sorry for your loss.

This whole thing was put together last minute, the overall goal was the get Orton over a champ, he was going to do it against Cena, weather it be last night or at the next PPV, it was pretty obvious that they were going in that direction.

Now who was the hottest face they had? HHH

If they brought in Y2J just to job to Orton, how would that of looked? Terrible! Totally squashes your new investment

If you want to get your heel champ over, have him beat your current top face, and realistically on that night it was HHH. The job Orton did at the start of the night didn’t really hurt him as it was a roll up, which is a classic way of keeping your heel over, as he was out smarted, but not beaten.

HHH did a good sell job to Orton later in the night, and they had to still make him look strong (HHH) to keep his own heat. Given the events of the past week, I think they did a good job with the scenario

I'm not bitter about the Val Venis thing. The most I could hope for is that he gets to go over Santino Marella on RAW, or something. This scenario was just screaming for something more exciting that Triple Z. The beginning of the evening was done horribly. I know I am meant to be optimistic and all, but it just made no sense.

First of all, Randy Orton being announced the WWE Champion really made no sense. He injured John Cena in an illegal manner, and gets named the WWE Champion? It's a huge let down for anyone who tuned in wanting to see a WWE Champion decided.

The opening match made no sense. Triple H made fun of Vince and gets rewarded? They had about 6 days to come up with something, and that was all they could do? The school boy pin didn't really protect Randy Orton, either. School boys work well for fluke wins, but this clearly wasn't put over as a fluke win. It was Triple H going over cleanly, and it didn't completely bury Orton, but it made him out to look inferior to Triple H. It make Triple H look smarter, stronger, and overall better. A Pedigree would have done exactly the same thing.

The latter booking of Triple H made more sense. Vince forcing him through the marathon of Umaga and Randy Orton. It was a creative way at getting everything they advertised in, and it made Triple H look good. Randy Orton winning back the WWE Championship at the end was wise, too. Triple H retaining would have made no sense, as Umaga and Carlito could have been sent out by Vince to beat down Triple H and hold Orton up.

What I disagree most with is their decision to not care about disappointing. Triple H was not the saviour the WWE wanted to see. They wanted Jericho. I think they would have preferred a Hardy over Triple H. This was their chance to make a star, but instead they used an established guy, which makes sense, but it is a lot more boring.

I also disagree that they were taking the WWE Championship off John Cena at No Mercy. A lot of people seem to think that was the path they were going to take, but I judging by how Randy Orton won the Unforgiven match, and got to go over John Cena pretty strong throughout the feud, I'm sure it was leading to John Cena standing tall and retaining his title like Superman. They were going to continue the program heading into Cyber Sunday, and I think they would have had Randy Orton go over there, if anywhere. They might have even gone straight into John Cena vs. Triple H for the WWE Championship, and never had Orton so much as touch the belt.

Oh it’s on now!

I hoped this day would never come, Optimist Vs Optimist. FIGHT!

He was the number 1 contender and therefore would be the next in line for the title, plus Vince is an asshole and therefore can do whatever he wants because it’s his company. And we did get a proper match and the title decided at the end of the night

A roll up doesn’t make him look stronger, it’s a roll up for god sake, it’s just quick thinking after a mistake by Orton, it made the crowd hot all night. And there was no way they were going to finish with the prison match, so you had to know something else was coming

Umaga and Carlito were not needed as the purpose of this match was to get Orton over as a legit champ instead of a guy who was given a belt, HHH did was all faces do in these matches and that’s keep going until you have nothing left, thus making both strong

Orton was going to go over in the end, whoever they brought out to make a star was going to have to lose, therefore not making anyone, except for Orton

So they brought there plans forward for the Orton win, they had to, if they wanted HHH to run with the title they would of kept it on him, right now I think we can expect a HHH/Vince feud as planned, heck they night even still use Kennedy in the same role, just not as his son. Orton needs a new opponent from tonight onwards, there’s a lack of top level faces right now, so whoever it is it’s going to be a short lived feud until Jericho comes in, at Cyber Sunday I guess now.

What happens form there onwards is anyones guess

Do you realize that Val Venis "winning" that poll was the work of about 200 yardtards voting for him over and over again?

Yeah.

Shhh now, don't tell him that!


Santa is real ok?

Love you Alienoid :heart:

<font color=goldenrod>Plus if Val was on the PPV he probably would have jobbed in about 10 seconds.</font>

Wrestling sucks in general currently.

Part of good booking is being able to cover for things like this, your main star going down before a big show. Being able to adapt and give the fans what they want to make up for it. Paul Heyman was the best at this. Alot of advertised ECW main events didnt happen at normal shows, but Paul made sure fans left happy. He would book a surprise, or a match that aybe was set for a bigger stage then they were at, just to make sure the fans went home happy.

Alot of people paid alot of money to see Cena vs Orton, and if they cant get that, the WWE had to give them the only thing they want that could make up for it, HHH. They also had to make sure it didnt hurt either character. I think they could have doen it better, but worse jobs have been done.

5) ROH isn't that great of an alternative either.

Wasn't trying to say you did. I just agreed with the first four points and added one more.

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They've run shows in New York, PA, NJ,Hartford, St. Paul, Boston, Detroit, Cleveland, Dayton, Chicago, the UK and Japan. That's all within the past year. They're going to be running a show in Vegas soon, and are going to have a large present at Wrestlefest in san Fran coming up.

They have a ppv deal, a strong working relationship with NOAH (the 2nd biggest company in Japan right now), and Dragongate, and have also worked with AJPW in the past. Many ROH wrestlers are touring with NOAH as well. It pretty much has it's own farm league in FIP as well.

Say what you will about ROH, but I think you're going to have a hard time convincing people who actually know what they're talking about that ROH is "A local fed that has the smallest of footholds." It's not mainstream, but it's definitely risen above indy level, and like it or not, it is the number 3 company in America right now, both in reach, and in profit.

Also, like it or not, ROH is probably the only alternative you're going to get for a long time. TNA is too busy trying to be similar (but slightly different) to WWE so they can compete. No other company is going to gain major exposure anytime soon, outside of ROH. If they did, it would be Chikara, or maybe PWG, and if you don't like ROH, you'll probably like them less.

I'm not trying so say "OMG, ROH IS GOING TO BEAT TNA!" blah blah blah, but outside of WWE and TNA, ROH is in the best posistion a wrestling company has been in. It's not even 6 years old and it's already done alot.

That sums things up pretty well about the level of competition among wrestling promotions. There is just the Big One, and that is it. TNA is the medium one. ROH is just the biggest indy fed.

Say there's a pond, and there is three kinds of fish in the pond. One of them is a shark, one of them is a goldfish, and the rest are just a bunch of guppies. The shark is obviously WWE, the goldfish is obviously TNA, and ROH is just the fattest guppy. But, still a guppy nonetheless.

I will refer to RoH fans as "Guppies" from this day forward.

Please explain to me how ROH is a local fed? How can someone be a local fed when they're on ppv, hit as many markets as they do, and travel overseas? Indy, yes, local, no. Treating ROH like a small local PA company is crazy.

That's true, but I think most people were expecting some kind of match to decide the WWE Champion. Just having a guy suddenly come out as WWE Champion, regardless of what happened afterwards, deflates some sails a little bit.

I wasn't against the Last Man Standing match. The roll-up didn't protect Orton. It made him look clumsy, in my opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Umaga and Carlito were not needed, I'm just saying that it would have made no sense for Triple H to win the Last Man Standing match. It's good that he didn't, and that Orton did it cleanly was a good move.

My point is that it shouldn't be Orton getting put over in the end.

Nah, it will be Triple H chasing Orton heading into Cyber Sunday. I think that much is actually confirmed by the WWE.

Um, obviously.

Also, LOL at people making this about Val Venis. This isn't about my love for the most underrated man on the WWE roster, but rather my distaste for Triple Z, the boring and the ignorant attitude the WWE has towards its fans. It seems all the WWE hears are the wet screams of their female fanbase for John Cena, and block out the boos. It seems the WWE is still convinced that Triple H is the most popular entity in sports entertainment.

1) Well I voted for him once, so there must be at least someone else.

2) The Undertaker, as much as I am bored by him, would have done better than Triple H. Chris Jericho would have done better. Anyone can be made into a main eventer in this business (theoretically). It didn't have to be Triple H or Randy Orton unless you are retard.

3) Boogen could save TNA, couldn't he?

4) Of course it's painfully obvious, that was kind of the point of pointing out how oblivious the WWE and TNA are to their fanbases. They identify the good option, then deliberately take the bad one, to the point where it is comical. That it is nothing new does not make it any less relevent.

It seems to me like you were making it out to be about Val Venis by saying...

You made it sound like that Val and Snitsky are both herald among the online community. Let's not forget that people were knowingly going in and voting for Val and Snitsky OVER and OVER again just to lower Hunter's score.

That defeats the whole purpose of "Why aren't they giving us what they want?!?!" Hey Kennedy got a lower vote than Triple H in that poll, does that mean you people want to see less of One-Trick??

And I'm glad Vince didn't give us Jericho, cause even if he is the hype from those videos. Why the fuck do you want them to blow their load after only a couple of weeks? I mean isn't that the same kind of booking that the IWC constantly complains about?

"Let's not forget that people were knowingly going in and voting for Val and Snitsky OVER and OVER again just to lower Hunter's score." - That pretty much sums it up. People wanted to lower Hunter's score. When you have a guy getting out-popped, out-voted and just plain out everything'd, it's just defiant to present him as the most popular guy in the world, and being what the fans want to see.

Also, bringing in Jericho at No Mercy would have been fine with me. It's how they bring him in, not when. There's only so much more they can do with cryptic videos.

Once again you're missing the point. It was the same, SMALL select group of people doing it. And I'm talking like the smallest percentage of fans. Once Triple H gets Rob Conway pops, then we'll talk. I mean afterall, look at all of those people who got less votes than Triple H. What does that say about them? If they gave what the "fans" really "wanted" then Snitsky or Val would've won the title. And you know what the crowd reaction would be?

DEAD FUCKING SILENCE.

Now I don't agree with them hotshotting the title three times last night, but it was a helluva lot better than a Snitsky/Orton/Venis main event. Even though that's obviously is what the fans wanted. :roll:

Yes they can, they can change up the videos like they are doing. They can interrupt matches and promos with the video. They can drop subtle hints throughout the programs.

This adds some sort of drama to the shows, it gets people talking since no one knows who exactly it is.

I love how KoOS hasn't responded to WWKD/Destor's quotes yet lol

I think we all can pretty much agree that the WWE is in the shape it's in now because they made Cena "Superman". He squashed/defeated any credible opponents that, if given the chance, could've had better tv than him (Carlito, Kennedy, Michaels pre-injury, CM Punk, etc.) SOMEWHERE between that loooong reign, they could have made him heel, crown a new champ, and/or put Cena in interesting fueds WITHOUT the title. I honestly think that the WWE doesn't know how the fans will take Cena as a face without the title. Like, he HAS to be champ or he is worthless which is not the case.

We'll see where this ends up, but the question is when will HHH become champ? We know this is going to happen, period. It had better not be WrestleMania, because that would not only be obvious, but just retarded. If he has the title going in to WM, then w/e, but he doesn't need to become champ there.

HHH is the "better" choice from a drawing standpoint, and if he gets injured again before Cena returns, THIS WILL BE THE WWE PROGRAMMING I WANT TO WATCH.

KoOS never said anything about ROH being a local fed in the first place. That was BDC. I'm pretty sure KoOS doesn't share that thought... I could be wrong, but hey.

I would do nothing more than to argue with BDC with ROH, but there is little to really fight against him with ROH is really a small fed, but just with a larger fan base than more other promotions. I would call it the modern ECW...a fairly small, yet popular fed climbing in the ranks because of entertain, exciting shows.

I never heard of ECW till they got the TNN deal, and I lived in NJ. ROH is probably the same, where they won't get any recognition past internet and local fans till they get a real tv deal too.

So agreeing for the most part with BDC...but placing on a more positive light.

Edit: Sorry...computer wasn't reloaded

Double Post

Same thing here...got this shit sucks

Getting rid of another double post. Stupid connection.

I wouldn't call RoH a local fed, but they are only a de facto third place.

Come to think of it, TNA and WWE are only de facto second and first place.

Show attendance alone, the average ROH crowd is usually 600 to 1000 people, much bigger than any other indy fed. That isn't just in PA either, but in pretty much every market they hit, including oversears. Yes, they're small, but they have a decent following outside of PA. They're not just a local fed. Local feds don/t travel overseas and draw a thousand people. Local feds don't generate profit like ROH does by selling dvds.

I'm not saying ROH is huge, but they aren't just a local fed. If anything, they're an extended regional fed. They pretty much cover from original ECW area (NJ, PA, NY), Ohio (Dayton, Clevland) , Michigan (Detroit), and some other markets (St. Paul, CT, MA, etc.) They're branching out as much as they can without spreading themselves too thin. To say they're local is a big understatement. They're not national, but they're definitely regional. Also, they probably have more exposure in Japan through NOAH and Dragongate than TNA does.

Last one.

End of the double posts.

600 to 1000 people in what markets? 1000 people in like Vega or New York or Japan is nothing. 600 People in Wichita Kansas, that is impressive. So if you could at least point me towards a place to find the figures, that would be a start.

I agree they are small, maybe they are bigger than a local fed, maybe they are a really small regional fed. It is hard to tell.

A more correct sentence is "Local fed don't generate revenue like blah blah blah." In business terms revenue is a hard number, profit is more subjective. And do you know for a fact that there isn't a smaller promotion than RoH that makes more profit on DVD says than RoH does? It is possible. Hell, if you make a single dollar of profit in a wrestling promotion in 2000, you much more profit than WCW did that same year, doesn't prove a thing in terms of scale of business.

Ooooooo, they are bigger in Japan than TNA is. To bad TNA is still bigger than RoH. Also lets take a look at it, the original ECW area is a hot bed of wrestling activity. If you didn't have a good following from that area while being based in that area, you suck. It proves nothing if you are successful there. And if it is these other cities that they are drawling the 600 strong crowds, that isn't that impressive. It is decent, but not impressive. There is a strong wrestling following in those markets, RoH just taps those. It is like saying your hockey team is popular because a bunch of Canadians have heard of it.

When RoH is shooting live ppvs and has live, or semi-live (you know taped with in the week) free tv on at a decent time in majority of American markets, then they will really be 3rd instead of just as KK put it, de-facto 3rd. In all fairness, I wasn't buying TNA as being #2 until they got on Spike and had a handful of names.

De-facto or not, they're 3rd. You can't argue they're not. They're the 3rd largest wrestling company in North America right now.

A tv show putting them on in the majority of American markets would make them a national fed.

As far as exact numbers, I don't have them, nor do I know where to get them. The numbers I'm giving are based off the attendance counts given by ROH fans and staff (and in the Japanese shows cases, the stats that were reported over there.)

Could a small indy fed be making more of a profit off of dvds? Possible, but not probable. Quite simply, I don't know of any indy fed that puts out as many DVDs as they do, that has as wide of a reach as they do.

Anywho, I don't feel like dragging this out. ROH is not a local fed. They're a regional fed. Small? Smaller than ECW. However, size wise, they are the third biggest wrestling Company in North America, and are also 3rd as far as reach goes. You can't consider them a "local" fed when they normally run shows in markets outside of their local territory. You can't consider them a "local" fed, when they do shows outside the country, and have pay-per-view, be it taped or not.

ROH can't be compared to TNA, it's not close in regards to the market. However, comparing ROH to your run of the mill indy fed also doesn't make sense, because anyone with half a brain should be able to see they're not your run of the mill indy fed.

If only that meant as much as you seem to think it does.

WWE does suck but I think No Mercy was booked fine.

But diversion's such a great way to argue without actually proving anything.

Fair enough. Unfortunately, the proof you're asking for isn't something that I, or anyone I know has access too. I'm going to have to go with the estimated crowd size from people in attendance, since I don/t have access to ROH's ticket sale info.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. Us arguing about ROH's size or profit changes nothing about ROH.

I'd be interested to hear just what you think I think that means.

I'm not saying ROH is #3 to rate them in terms of awesomeness, or to compare them to WWE, TNA, old ECW, etc. All I'm saying is that ROH is the biggest wrestling company in North America after WWE and TNA, and that there's really not another "indy" fed they can be logically compared to.

Ultimately, acting like ROH is competing with TNA, or has a chance of doing so in the future, is retarded. Acting like ROH is huge, and is nationally known, or even known by 30% of WWE's American fan base, is retarded. However, acting like ROH is has no following outside of a local base, that they're not atleast a small regional fed, and that ROH is not the biggest "indy" company right now, is also retarded.

Honestly though, what part of this isn't splitting hairs? Wrestling is horribly subjective. Outside of hard statistics, such as actually ticket sales, dvd sales, etc, which I don't know who, outside of ROH, or any company in question has, you can't judge wrestling anything but subjectively. There are still people who LOVE WWE. There are people who LOVE TNA. People are going to watch what they like, praise what they like, etc. I just which more people would give other products a chance.

I know exactly what he's saying, and I agree. The only reason I even bring it up, is because it shows ROH's status over other indy feds. If you take ROH out of the equation, there wouldn't be a clear/accepted #3. It would essentially be WWE, TNA, then a shitload of random indy feds. The fact that ROH can be recognized as number three cleary, shows it comparitive status over the indy feds

So can we all agree that RoH is a distant third, which doesn't really mean shit.

Yep, pretty much.

Somone has sense anyways.

I think BDC got it.

Someone who read, thought, and drew a conclusion?

Wow. Did I leave TPWW?

So...Kevin apparently doesn't believe it's meaningful, but has continued to argue over and assert it. That confuses me slightly, as it seems a contradiction to continue such a distinction unless one believes it actually, you know, is a distinction.

But I guess it makes sense in the same way that thinking a bloody promo under a ladder is gay means that I fucking hate RoH and everything it stands for, and would never give it a fair shake.

But I digress.

Pro Wrestling is a dying market.

Okay, before Destor pisses himself over the phrase "dying," let me clarify:

The interest in wrestling is at a major low. You can talk about your slumps, and how it's a "boom or bust" business (Though that is wholly artificial and mandated only by the way things are booked), but interest has been dwindling for years now, and WWE, the only promotion of any real duration, has been faltering even under its new stars. IT's doing good, business-wise, but it's cutting a lot of corners to make that happen. TNA, the only other national televised wrestling program, does ratings that can be bested by most infomercials.

Wrestling interest just isn't that high. The number one slot means sweet fuck all, because people don't care. Sure, ratings were once lower, but that was a t a point where a 2.0 was actually a worthwhile number that could make Nielsen's top ten. Nowadays, WWE can't stay on the top ten with much higher numbers. TNA couldn't support themselves with more aggressive touring, and they're #2. If not dying, the wrestling biz is massively faltering.

At this point, there is no major interest. The idea of a competitive market is a pretty laughable one, and the state of the "top three" should be a warning to anyone who might decide to actually run anything competitive. RoH took how long to get a PPV deal? TNA took how long to get on TV? We're talking a longterm investment with a slim chance of real payoff.

Numbers look nice. That's about it, but that's all you need for a pseudo-science argument.

I just wanted to use "Psuedo-Science."

Ummm... Duh?

You're not telling me anything I don't already know. Just because you can make up some numbers to show how PWG COULD be making more of a profit than ROH, doesn't mean they are. I understand what you're saying, and without hard numbers, it's hard to specifically prove (despite is being a pretty much accepted thought in the wrestling world) that ROH is # 3 in terms of profit. It's possible they're not... It's just not probable.

The way I see it, there are two ways to measure a wrestling company.

1. Audience. How many people are watching, how many people are they reaching, etc
2. Profit. It's a business, they need to make money.

A high audience does not equal high profit, and high profit does not indicate a high audience. I understand this, I don't know why you seem to think I don't. I never said that because they profit on DVDs, they have more viewers. I was saying that it is IMPORTANT that they profit on dvds, and that overall, they turn a profit.

The fact that they make a profit doesn't prove anything about their size. However, it is important they turn a profit, because that's what keeps the company going.