Orton - Spoiler warnings
 

Honestly, the 'Swog has more claim to the #1 contendership than Jericho. At least 'Swog has worked up through the midcard a bit. Nobody should be given a title shot on their debut/redebut. They've basically equated Jericho's return to that freaking Scott Steiner mess back in '03. Except nobody ever EXPECTED anything from Big Poppa Shithead.

Remember when Hassan debuted.

The storyline for weeks and weeks was that he couldn't get a title shot. ANY title shot. That's when they went down the racist storyline path.

Oh and yeah Flair and MIchaels do rule.

Yeah I know BDC, go to hell jobber. :foc:

He should have had to earn the shot, at the very least. Maybe even have to face Orton in singles competition a couple of times. But this? This is a TNA move.

You know that making sense is against the rules, come on.

Logically speaking, Chris Jericho is the reason that Ric beat Randy (that and a low blow) on RAW, so if it wasn't for the savior, Flair would be retired. If it was the mafia, Flair would owe his life to Jericho. In this case, he just reneges any supposed title contendership status, based on the fact that he cheated to win.

And Shawn didn't "technically" win anything last night. Shawn made the decision to fight Kennedy instead of his opponent, thus getting himself counted out. An amateur mistake for the seasoned HBK, but a loss for his record books none the less.

See? Neither man has contendership over Jericho. You're dilluting yourself.

Fox is right. BDC is watering himself down.

Chris Benoit vs Daniel Benoit for the World Title! Adrian Adonis is the special ref.

You know this is professional entertainme...er....wrestling right?

Dunno, I think you've lost your edge, Daddy.

Fine. Coffeeing yourself down.

Anyway, Fox isn't right. I just wanted to make the diluting crack.

Yeah, Benoit's starting to get ripe. We need a new celebrity suicide to dig up.


Rule #1: If it doesn't make sense, it sells.

Chris Jericho challenging for the WWE Championship makes perfect sense to me. For one, it was not like Jericho walked in and was granted a match. He fucked around with Randy's head until Orton said "OK, you have your match."

Ric Flair did beat Randy Orton, and has a legitimate claim to the WWE Championship. Shawn Michaels lost to Randy Orton last night. It's a Batista-like move to give him another title shot. HBK should be the next WWE Champion, but he is in no way the #1 Contender.

I can see some people's problem with Jericho getting the title shot, and if William Regal or Vince McMahon came out, and said "you're not getting the shot, you haven't been back long enough," then it would make sense. Actually, I'd like to see Regal do that, Jericho remind him that he pissed in his tea, and then Regal and Jericho having a match to decide whether or not Jericho can get the shot.

Jericho has a win against Umaga now, which is pretty impressive. Jeff Hardy also has a win, but he's less proven as far as his resume goes, and he is getting a #1 Contender's opportunity at Armageddon.

So, in summary:

This all makes sense, to a certain degree. So shut the fuck up.

I agree with fox. If it weren't for Jericho Flair would be retired, so shut the fuck up BDC.

Seriously, I’m feelin’ Orton/J. Hardy @ RR ’08 for the WWE title. Jeff loses in a close battle, and over the next couple months we see Jeff and Orton feuding over the title, leading up to a J. Hardy/Orton Main Event for the WWE title at WM XXIV, where Jeff finally (unlike a certain coach in the NFL) wins the big one. That is the only proper way to do this thing.

Which would have been nicer if it hadn't been all of one night.

Not counting his debut, he had like, an altercation and a half with Orton. That's not a lot of fucking with him.

Meh, I don't really care that much, because Jericho makes as much sense as anyone else anyway.

Frankly I’m surprised nobody in the company came up with a hokey billing for the match, such as “The Youngest World Champion In WWE History v. The First Undisputed Champion”. Hell, I’m surprised Jericho didn’t think of that one himself, being as how he’s all about being the first Undisputed Champion and all...

Yeah, because Jeff Hardy has been World Champion how many times? As opposed to Chris Jericho winning the WCW Championship twice, and unifying it with the WWE Championship? In fact, to this day, I think Chris Jericho may be the only man to ever win two seperate World Championships in two matches in one night.

The most Jeff Hardy can claim to is being IC Champion four times, something Chris Jericho has done seven times. Jericho is more decorated, which is what I was referring to when I said resume. Jeff is still a mid-carder on paper.

Jeff Hardy is also not the most over guy on RAW. That much is debatable. Right now, Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho would both give him a run for that role. As much as it pains me to say it, so does Triple H.

And the WWE has not acted like being IC Champion has meant anything in years. If it did, the belt would probably be on the line at Armageddon. Winning the Survivor Series match is probably the best thing Jeff Hardy has going for him, and even then, Chris Jericho has won big matches since returning (against Umaga, who is still put over as an unbeatable monster, even though he's losing more and more). Jeff got the last pin, which was good for him, but in the end, it was a tag team victory. Jeff Hardy shared the ultimate win with Triple H, so anything that Jeff can claim from the win, Triple H technically can, too. That may be, you know, why they are having a contenders' match between them on PPV?

Chris Jericho is a makeshift challenger while William Regal sorts out who gets the shot out of Triple H and Jeff Hardy. I'm fairly certain Jericho will be protected, not win the title (although I can see some kind of repeat of the Triple H/Jericho incident from 2000), while Triple H beats Jeff Hardy to get the match at the Royal Rumble. I'm fairly certain Randy Orton will retain there, a real feud between Triple H and Jeff Hardy will kick-start, and Shawn Michaels will get the No Way Out title shot. Chris Jericho should win the 2008 Royal Rumble, and HBK should win the WWE Championship at No Way Out, giving us Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho in the main event.

Wtf is that?

KK carving a Turkey.

Didn't know you came from an Asian background. Must be why you're such a Jimmy Wang Yang fan. :naughty:

When the last 6 months have mostly been perception, and fan boys salivating over Jeff, and the past 6 years completely overshadow any of the accomplishments in the six months, then yes. Absolutely.

Randy Orton's been a pretty solid heel character lately, but the most relevant thing he has done is become the youngest World Champion in WWE history, in my opinion. Chris Jericho being a three-time World Champion completely trumps anything Jeff Hardy has ever done, and at the risk of sounding cynical, may ever do.

I was always under the impression that Orton's first title win (and subsequent claim to be the youngest WWE Champion in history) was because with Lesnar leaving the company, Vince didn't want that record staying with Brock.

It wasn't the fact that Orton was so deserving of the title (although it did make a half-decent storyline with the break-up of Evolution and then Dancin' Dave leaving as well and feuding with HHH) but more the fact that Vince was pissed that Lesnar had the record and there were few other (young) choices at the time to put the title on who could claim the record.

Has anyone else heard this story?

Wow, just.....wow.

He's not Asian, He's a redneck. YEEEEHAAAAW!

Dumbass!

:roll:

:D

It's the most common story/rumor/legend about his title run. Dunno if it's true, but it's very common.

But ask me if in a kayfabe sense Val Venis deserves to get the title shot over Chris Jericho, just because Venis has done more in the last six months (by default).

Jeff Hardy is yet to crack the big one. Chris Jericho cracked said big one three, arguably four times.

That's one perception of it, and while it is true, it was the right move to put the World Heavyweight Championship on Randy Orton at that point in time. Toronto could feel it, and a lot of people were hoping it would happen. Some people claimed that it was a little fast for Orton, but most seemed to agree that he had proven himself a more than capable Champion.

Vince probably had both objectives in mind. Replace Brock Lesnar, and push Randy Orton. A two-for-one deal. Brock Lesnar is still technically the youngest WWE Champion of all-time, though. If all Vince cared about was replacing Lesnar, Orton would have won that belt, or Kenny Dykstra/Chris Masters would have won it by now.

I actually enjoyed that promo of Jericho. It made sense, and was far more entertaining than anything I had seen from John Cena.

But no, I do not think that Randy Orton vs. Jeff Hardy would be better at Armageddon. Quite frankly, I could not see myself ever buying a PPV with that as the main event. I think that Chris Jericho needs to be protected here, but off his return, this match makes a lot of sense. If he were working on the undercard, he'd just be losing steam, and then the WWE would end up never putting him in the main event.

I will say, however, that with the Royal Rumble looming, the WWE could have had Jericho beat Umaga, or something, qualify for the Rumble, and then win it to get his title shot. Jericho is just a much more credible choice than Jeff Hardy. Shawn Michaels getting another match against Orton was probably the best choice, but that program was doing nothing for me, either.

Actually, I do have long term vision. I have a plan that the WWE could follow until Summerslam next year. I just don't choose to see your long term vision. Long term vision does not mean a crappy short term vision, either. Randy Orton vs. Jeff Hardy does not scream main event. You'd realistically have to put it on before the World Heavyweight Title Match, which may not be a bad idea. Orton vs. Michaels was the way to go, in my opinion, with Jericho helping Michaels win the Title, to continue his feud with Orton (which can blow off between then and WrestleMania), and HBK can hold the WWE Title until WrestleMania, where Jericho dethrones him.

Jeff Hardy is probably more like fourth most over guy on RAW, isn't he? Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels and Triple H would all be above him. Anyway, Hardy is still the same as he was years ago. Sure, he's improved, but not so much that I want to see him headline a PPV. Not before Matt, who is just as over, and the much better wrestler, does.

I'm also a bit undecided on Jeff.

Yes - he's the most over guy on RAW right now, but do the fans really see him as a credible main-eventer? (or would they seem him as a credible main-event guy?). Would people REALLY be interested in seeing Jeff Hardy main-event Wrestlemania?

I'd like to think yes, but I'm just not sure. A few years ago for instance, the fans got behind Rey Mysterio, but it just didn't pan out. A large part of this reason IMO, is because the fans simply didn't see Mysterio as a credible main-event guy. It's fun getting behind the underdog, but how long can it last? Keep in mind, I haven't watched WWE programming in almost 3 months (I can't here in Seoul....and they're also a month behind in storylines), and so I can't "guage" where Hardy is at, but I just don't know.

I guess a large part of Jeff Hardy's credibility will be established (or destroyed) in his up-coming match with Triple H.

Exactly. Jeff Hardy is still a mid-carder, technically speaking. The guy has not evolved (apart from not relying on falling from high places as much), but there is no way people would really buy him headlining a WrestleMania. Not this year, anyway.

Jeff's in a good place right now, but he needs to stay there for a while. A feud with Triple H will help him.

That may be true. Jericho has more credibility, though, which does help with fan support. Jericho is just on a different plateau to Jeff Hardy right now. I mean, Jeff Hardy is over for an upper mid-carder, but he doesn't get pops that are Stone Cold big. He gets pops that are Jeff Hardy big.

Definitely. If Triple H does his part and REALLY makes Jeff Hardy look solid/viable, then I DO think that there's a CHANCE (albeit, still a small one) that Jeff could look like a credible main-event come Wrestlemania.

Hopefully - Jeff/Triple H can have a feud which would be similar to Jericho/Rock in late 2001 (or Angle/Austin from mid 2001). Jeff and Triple H, between now and Royal Rumble, have 2 or 3 matches.....all of which are VERY VERY VERY closely contested. Both men get a victory in very very closely contested matches.

Even if Hardy doesn't defeat Triple H, he should still be made to look awesome (i.e. when Benjamin jobbed to HBK a few years ago, he still gained massive credibility due to how close the match was).

So, in summation...

1) If Jeff can be made to look on the same level as Triple H (in not just one, but 2 or 3 different matches)

2) Jeff Hardy defeats some other semi-credible guys cleanly (i.e. Umaga, Khali, Kennedy, etc.)

3) Jeff wins the Royal Rumble

Then yes - perhaps Jeff can look credible as a headliner for Mania'.

I would also consider giving Jeff some newer music (i.e. similar to Cena and Batista before mania' in year's past).

Agreed.

Like I alluded to in some other threads, it's all about the fans NOT being told what to do.

Right now - the WWE (and Jericho himself) are practically BEGGING for him to be cheered for.

The fans on the other hand, seem to have NATURALLY taken a liking to Hardy however (what remains to be seen however IMO, is whether the fans can accept Hardy as a ME.....or will this turn out to be Rey Mysterio part deux). Hardy might be getting larger pops than Jericho, but Jericho still has more main-event credibility amongst the fans.

Hopefully - Triple H can help Jeff become established as a ME'er to change that perception.

I don't think the return was so much fucked up, as the WWE is fucked up. Shawn Michaels doesn't get great pops these days. All that's left are the little kids who are too scared of the loud noises to actively participate in the shows, and wouldn't remember who Jericho is, so they have to get reacquainted to him.

I am trying to make excuses for Jericho, but that is because in my mind, the guy is just so much more credible than Jeff Hardy. He is the a guy the IWC has been begging to return for years. No one would care if Jeff Hardy left (hyperbole). Jericho is a legitimate main event-level guy. Jeff Hardy is, unfortunately, not. The guy is an upper mid-card guy at present. Sure, he gets better pops, but he's been around for the last few months, getting the same pops as he did in 2001, if not smaller.

Jericho has to re-establish himself, whereas Hardy has been in his role for longer. The fans are more comfortable with him there, sure, but looking at their careers, there is no doubt that Jericho is the bigger star, in my opinion.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall Hardy getting the same level of face pops that he is now back in 2001 (or are you referring to 2002 when he feuded with Undertaker, etc.?).

I think the ONE thing that Jeff has going for him (that people like Jericho, Orton, Kane, etc., etc.) do NOT have going for them, is that Jeff's "journey" still hasn't been completed. Yes - guys like Jericho, etc. are far more established, but they also have that "been there, done that" aura amongst the fans. The fans have already seen Jericho win the title. Hardy on the other hand, represents something new.

Like I said - it all depends on how the Triple H/Jeff Hardy thing plays out within the next few months. If Hardy can look credible, then I'd give Hardy the nodd over Jericho. If not - then Jericho should get the nod.

Fan support's kinda moot when nobody's supporting you.

Also, nobody gets stone cold pops, period. Jeff Hardy big is still big. And it's just about the biggest thing they have, sad as it is to say.

I'm betting that if you had gone to an event in 2001 with an SPL meter, Hardy's pops would be the exact same magnitude they are now. Plus or minus a couple of decibels, obviously. But basically, what I'm saying is that he's getting the same pop in a different environment. Basically, the crowds are far more dead, so the pops SEEM bigger.

You know, kinda like every poster looks like they have a big dick compared to Shadow. Even Rhiannon. ;)