It has been over 6 months
 

No. But i'm hard pressed to deny he's improved Raw

According to Meltzer, nobody in the WWE has since 1997. What is a 5 star match? Can anyone get one out of Orton and JBL?

I think it's been 4 months, but whatever

His match with Punk was pretty good last night.

BDC, you're boring everyone now. This act of 'oh i hate jericho im so funny' is pretty tiring. You just basically let your bias hatred of jericho get in the way so no matter what you instantly overlook anything good he does. You even said his return was shit, you're the one whose full of shit tbh.

He's obv just trying to be funny for the 32,221st time here and hes failing miserably, but its hardly anything to care about. We get the gimmick by now

He came back at the end of November

Unless of course you expected him to have 5 star matches when vignettes were running during commercial breaks

If he wants to hate, let him. But:

Solid matches with Hardy, Punk among others.

Solid feud with JBL, even though the matches were garbage

You can't say he hasnt contributed to the upper mid card i.e: Jerichoesque

whatever, bdc.

"Jericho wrestled in his first match in over two years on the November 26, 2007 episode of RAW"

I have a bet for you though BDC, gentlemens bet. By the time the 6 month mark is here I bet he will have had a great match. He had programs with Orton and JBL. His matches against Punk and Hardy and others have been solid.
Now if he gets a program with someone he can work with and get time with, he should be fine

Ps, did you see the Armageddon match against Orton? Considering who he was facing, the match was pretty good

Or you could just use your head. You watch wrestling all the time and spend your days on a wrestling forum, I'd assume you'd have a concept of time and remember what month it is

lol, okay

Jericho > JBL

his match on smackdown last week was great.

fucking hell, i agree with clox for once.

BDC, im starting to actually think clox is a better poster than you. That's how bad your posts are right now.

He's actually been having the best TV matches out of anyone, aside from maybe Jeff Hardy
Who else has been having 5 stars? HHH squashing Snitsky and Umaga and HBK vs Kennedy have been equal to or lesser than Jericho's work with Orton and JBL. What about them?

He hasn't had much to work with in terms of programs or time. Like I said, he's gotten Orton and JBL and done a good job with them. His program with Jeff Hardy started and would have been great, and now he gets CM Punk which will prob be amazing.

Also, he's been in a few clusterfucks instead of one on one matches with other skilled wrestlers, (ie the elimination chamber and MITB) which were great and among the best of their kind.

I'm being honest here, if Jericho sucked now I'd admit it. In fact, I'd prob notice it more than you and be more critical with it. But the bottom line is he's doing what hes always been doing, he just hasn't been given the oppurtunity and time/compettitor to put on a 5 star.

He debuted in the WWF in late 99. How long was it til he had a 5 star there? Not until they let him. Blame WWE, not him

Meltzer is his own biggest mark.

I hear a lot of blah blah blah from you. Do you seriously think that the slow ass match last night was up to Jericho and Cm Punk's standards?


I haven't seen it yet, so can't judge. But i know for sure that Jericho's had a lot better promo's/matches than you think. Like for example, his match against jeff hardy to win the ic title was great. His promo with the big show was great. His match with mvp was great. His match at wm on sunday was pretty good in the MITB. His return promo was fucking amazing. And i'm sure im missing other things.Oh yeh his match against orton was pretty good considering it was his first ppv match on his return. And he carried JBl in their feud.

You're just so full of shit its unreal.

He is an idiot for his 5 star thing. He actually costs himself credibility by not naming any 5 stars. The problem is he has a problem with Vince and WWF ever since then and doesn't give them the 5th star for matches that are clearly 5 stars

read my post again bdc rather than reading what you want to read.

I think the point of a 5 star match is that they dont happen often. What do you consider a 5 star match? and who has been having them? who has had a handful of 5 stars in the course of months?

not good, but not bad.

As usual your hatred of jericho gets in the way of what really happened.

this gives me a thread idea.

I don't think you know what you're talking about here. I asked you who has been having 5 star matches, and who ever has at the rate you're demanding?

I think your definition of 5 star matches is strange. You judge them harsh, but dont really explain why you dont have a problem with nobody else of talent not having them. At the same time, you expect them frequently, but don't adresst he fact that by your standards nobody else has had them.

As of late, Flair vs Michaels is a 5 star match. Jeff Hardy vs HHH is a 4 star. Given time constraints, pairings and compettitors and match types Jericho has been unable to even attempt a 5 star match. For what hes been given, hes had good matches on tv, and been part of excellent matches on PPVs (mainly 6 men matches).

If Jericho was given 20 minutes + with Punk, HBK, HHH, Jeff, Morrison, Shelton or whoever else in WWE has equal talent today, he'd have a 4 to 5 star match.
He hasn't had that oppurtunity, and neither have many other people.

What match situation has he been in that could have been 5 stars that wasn't? Don't say Punk or Jeff Hardy in 6 minutes of time on tv to start a fued or job a title off a suspended wrestler. Because if you knew anything you'd know those aren't meant to be 5 stars. For what they were given and were, they were among the best television matches of the year.

WWE wrestling matches have been slow for many years now. I don't think it's the wrestlers' fault. Even the HBK v Jeff Hardy match seemed slow. The only people that go fast, that i can recall right now, is london and kendrick. Punk and Jericho was pretty good but if you watch the MVP v Jericho match on Smackdown that was much better. Fast wrestling isn't always good either. For example TNA. They just seem to be running around all over the place with drop kicks and clotheslines and then the crowd cheers and chants.

How can you steal the show at a ppv if you're given 10 minutes, in a match with 5 or 6 other guys, or in a program with Orton or JBL?
You can't have a 5 star match unless you're allowed to

BDC man, I don't think this argument can continue because I honestly think you're lost

You haven't answered a single one of my questions either

lol now you backtrack with the sarcasm tactic..admit it BDC, you're full of shit.*expects another sarcastic response from bdc*

I love where you try to talk about why the match should be better and what makes it bad. I really think you have no clue what you're talking about, which is fine, we're all just fans. But you're throwing out terms and expecations of things you don't even seem to have a grasp of

Whoa, when did this happen?

Jericho had the best singles match with Orton I can remember him having in years

Agreed.

Again, if someone can name one in the past couple years that has been better I will judge it honestly. But I can't think of one. Jericho vs Orton at Armageddon was better than his matches against HHH and HBK in the fall from what I remember

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The more I think of it, I'm gonna be honest. I think Jericho has been consistently having the most solid matches on Raw since the winter, along with Jeff and HBK

edit: on Raw

and that probably means the company

Exactly, he would have to have 20+ minutes with other top guys to have a 5 star match.

So no he has not had a 5 star match, but who has. IMO a 5 star match is a perfect wrestling match.

And alot of people say meltzer is full of shit, but I havent seen any perfect WWE matches since 1997 either. What the triple threat at WM XX. Come on, it was good, not perfect.

I'd love to get an answer the 10 questions I asked BDC over the course of this thread

LOL no.

Um, in a way, yes. :|

Jericho has done some solid TV shit since returning. His matches against Jeff Hardy and with the Money in the Bank guys have been interesting. I don't know what you consider "5 stars," but Money in the Bank was pretty fucking good. Fuck, I even enjoyed his TV match with Santino. Jericho has even gotten the fans back on side.

You're embarrassing yourself, BDC.

Oh right, because Punk was in it. :roll:

I know BDC isn't a Punk Mark, but there was no way Punk was carry Jericho in that match.

I think Jericho has been good since his return.

No, because it was a lackluster match.

That MVP/Jericho match was pretty fucking awesome. I'd like to see what they could do on PPV.

Haven't seen it, but you seem to be in the minority there. I can't imagine the two having anything too pedestrian. I'll get back to you about it.

Are people ever satisfied? It was a TV match, and it still was one of the better ones on RAW in a while. There not going to go out there an put on a clinic, especially with the possibility of a feud on hand.

As for Y2J in general, I think he has been doing very good. If you expect someone, regardless of how he is viewed, to go out and have a 5 star match ever time don't bother watching because your never going to be satisfied.

I can sum that post up in one word: BAWWWWWWWW!

No, I'm sure I am in the minority. Mostly because Jericho could come out, drop his trunks, and take a shit for fifteen minutes, and half of TPWW would rave about how awesome it was. Same with Punk. People develop a blind spot when it comes to IWC favorites, and they are elevated to the point where they can almost literally do no wrong.

For the record, Punk/Jericho was mediocre at best, anyone who says otherwise either didn't see the match, or was high on meth and would have found 10 000bc entertaining.

Lol at this flame war. Who will quit posting first!

Edit:

Did not notice the second page ><.

Meltzer is also a gangrenous cunt.

In a totally unrelated note to Jericho...

I remember this great Christian vs. Orton match on RAW from back when Orton was face. It was like the only good Orton match in that whole period, and Christian did such a fantastic job that I found myself involuntarily caring about Orton in the match and subconsciously rooting for him to win. (Consciously I was still rooting for Christian)

I thought it was a decent TV match, but it seemed like they had a 20 minute match plan and just cut out the entire heat part.

i think jericho has done good for a guy who was out for 2 years, but hasn't had any 4 or 5 star matches since he's been back. his first program with orton would've been better if it wasn't featuring a guy with ring rust and a guy who IS ring rust. jbl is slow and out of shape, on top of the fact that he wasn't that good to begin with, so obviously those matches aren't 5 star classics. the match with punk last night seemed slow to me, and the finish was almost botched. i dunno whether that was a stylistic difference between the two or what, but for their abilities i expect better. the hardy-jericho match wasn't great, it was solid, but i wouldn't call it anything above a 3 star match.

jericho has the goods, he's one of the best wrestlers of the last decade, definitly top 10 or maybe even top 5.i think so far the fault is really a combination of A). he didn't wrestle for 2 years, it has to take a while to get your timing back and B). who has he wrestled that is good enough right now to carry him to a better match while he is getting his timing down?

Morrison Punk from smackdown was great to.

Hell Morrison and miz v. Delaney Dreamer wasn't fucking bad at all.

I know my 2 cents count for jack around here but it does really seem that BDC (who is without doubt one of the best posters around here) is just going out of his way to rile people up. Seems you're going the KK route of just trying to get a rise out of people.

As for the topic at hand...I think we need to bare in mind that, having been back a mere 4 months, that Jericho is probably only now hitting his stride. He was gone for a long time, regardless of training you don't just step back out into the ring (or on to the pitch / rink / field / court, etc) and pick up where you left off.

In those 4 months he's had 2 singles matches on PPV. His opponents were Orton and JBL. How many 4 - 5 star matches have those 2 guys ever put on?

Personally I think it takes 2 (or however many guys are in the match) of the very top talents in the game to step into the ring on the right night to get anywhere near 5 stars.

My list in Clox's '5 Star Matches' thread consists of the likes of Michaels, Jericho, Benoit, Angle and Lesnar and pretty much combinations of those guys mixing it up. You've taken 5 technically gifted guys and put any 2 of them in the ring and given them time on PPV. Even then I've stated that I'm not sure I'd give those matches the full 5 stars.

Basically, given the points above, I wouldn't have expected more than we have gotten from Jericho since his return. Once we've seen him in there with the likes of HHH, HBK, Benjamin, Edge, Punk or any of the other highly regarded workers and he's come up short I'm gonna reserve judgement.

Chris Jericho saved my baby from a fire.

Twice.

Let's make something clear here: BDC is going the BDC route. On the other hand, BDC may be a jerk on here for the sake of being a jerk, but I also believe he's fairly sincere in terms of not liking Jericho. Or at least, not deep throating him. I'm not sure it goes to the extremes people assume, but then....

I don't expect him to be at his peak the moment he debuts, but I expected more than I saw from him. Especially in terms of mic skills, which really shouldn't suffer from the same kind of "ring rust."

And if he wasn't being hyped to a level that nobody could live up to....

A good worker can carry a mop to something near 5 stars. Maybe not a true five star epic, but close?

Orton's actually pretty easy to make look good. He's boring, but he's low maintenance as far as carrying a match. Only a few people can make JBL look like a good wrestler, but really, every match I've seen Jericho in since his return has been lackluster. I'm sorry. I like Jericho, but two things seem clear to me:

1. Chris Jericho should have probably waited to return. He left because he was burned out, and he seems to still be
2. The IWC seems to fawn over him no matter how good or bad he is.

No one is trying to say that Jericho HAS had a 4 star + match since his return (are they?) so I guess you win that argument.

I'm not sure anyine will take the bet that he will have one in the next 6 months either. I mean match ratings are subjective, if he has to have a 4 star + match in your eyes then the odds are stacked against whoever wagers you.

What would you want to wager over the internet anyway!?

I think the Money in the Bank Ladder Match was four stars. That shit was fucking great. Also, his match with Orton was fantastic. I'd defend his TV stuff heading into Money in the Bank as good, and his match with MVP as borderline great.

I don't see what the problem is. KK and BDC seem to be the only ones holding Y2J up to an unmeasurable standard.

No one argued that, and you have yet to even adress the questions asked, or pay attention to what is being said. I take it you're trying to fuck around here

Scrolled through the first page, ignored the rest.

My 2 cents: I've enjoyed Jericho over the last few months (even made JBL look good in ring on Raw), but it seems like they're putting him back in that same IC champ/jobber to the stars role.

Argued what? BDC said he has seen nobody say anything of the sort, and then a bunch of excuse.

No 5-stars yet for sure, but he's certainly getting better. He was VERY rusty when he came back and it showed.

Since MITB was announced, he's upped his game in his promos, in-ring work and to say that I enjoyed his win over OR Punk on Monday is an understatement.

IMO Jericho's doing just fine and I'd even go as far as saying that he'll be a World Champion again by the end of the year.

I can see most of your argument, but you totally lost me at World Champion.

He hasn't.

That's what you want everyone to say. You don't want explanations that are perfectly reasonable, you just want people to agree with you. Or you want to see people futilely try to reason with you. Okay. The short answer is...

He hasn't.

Hey, if Kane can again....

I don't think he's "SAVED US", RAW was ok considering how it was a few months before it. But as someone said above, I can't see areason why he's made it worse.

To be honest. Santino saved us all. He's gold. Give him the strap back. He can kill Chris Jericho and his Jericho Walls.

Santino's destiny is already planned out. He will just be a comedy thing.

The ECW Championship counts? :?:

Which will be moot in six months when the IWC crush is over.

How are we going to agree on whats a 4 or 5 star match? I mean, you can easily just turn around and say it wasn't "up to his standards" or "was only better than normal" or something?
I say the terms of the bet are we see what people say when this gets bumped in 2 months. But the match we're looking for is 5 stars by your standards, which as you say, he can and should be having all the time. Which is of course ridiculous because nobody has 5 stars that frequently, it's impossible given limitations by the company.
So, if we're not even on the same page about what a great match is and how responsible he is for not having them, how do we manage this bet? It's over an intangible thing. In a few months you can just take a great match and say, "he wasn't going fast enough"

You also still didn't answer a single one of my questions.

The only reason this discussion seems to persist is because of the 4 or 5 star matches Jericho has failed to put on. Then again, who on any of the rosters is capable of said match?

The only thing wrong with Jericho in my opinion since his return is that he was set to a standard that was completely unreasonable. The save us thing while being interesting and garnered discussion, really over-hyped the guy.

If you wanna argue he hasn't had a 5 star match fine, but who has? To say he hasn't improved raw in any way, imo, is completely untrue.

I could see it... if I thought there was more to him than just the mic skills

Howabout 4 stars?