Benoit
 

I know I know not another Beniot thread

Just thought this was interesting . I went to the HoF and Wrestlemania 24 and when Flair brought up Beniot the Place erupted in applause also when Triple H used the Crossface at Mania again the place erupted . Thoughts?

Is this a sign that Beniot will be remembered for his wrestling abilitys and not for the Horrific acts that he caused ?

to wrestling fans, of course

to non wrestling fans, no, he's a killer

I wouldn't doubt it.

But at the same time, there's still a market for John Wayne Gacy paintings.

Good Lord, I forgot about that part of the match! When I saw the Crossface, I nearly shit myself. And there was JR, calling the move over and over again, not hiding what it was. After so much time of hiding Benoit's past existence, that was shocking to say the least.

Its only a wrestling move. Benoit wasn't the only person ever to use it or the first. Whilst it was his signature move, one move doesn't define a person. It has been used since the Benoit deaths. Shawn Michaes used it in the match with Randy Orton when his SCM was banned. And I'm pretty sure either HHH or HBK used it on Raw previously too.

When I saw Triple H trying to pull of Cena, I was thinking "That would be cool if he did the crossface on Cena while Cena had the STF-U on Randy but that would never happen. If this match had Benoit it would happen". And then bam! Crossface!

I think the WWE, and wrestling fans, for the most part, realises that what Benoit did was probably caused my medical issues stemming from his professional wrestling career. While I doubt they're going to come right out and champion Benoit for public relations issues, it doesn't surprise me that you see little hints of tribute to him now and then.

He should one day go in the Hall of Fame. I hope he does get that honour.

what are you talking about? sure it does. You only think of one person whe someone does a stunner, or when someone does a tombstone, the rock bottom, the pedigree, the frog splash. The crossface will always be Benoit, no matter who does it

Couldn't agree with you anymore LC. I mean when you see someone like Andy Douglas do the Pedigree you say Trips, Davey Richards does a Tombstone you think Taker. So I am on board in saying that Yes, one move can indeed define a person.

A wrestler may define a move, but one move does not define a wrestler.

true

When you see someone do a legdrop, you think Hogan.

but back to the topic at hand, yeah, i wish benoit would just be remembered for his wrestling ability. i can understand why he won't be inducted in the HoF, even though he deserves a spot based purely on ability, but the WWE would get slammed by the mainstream media for it. i do wish the whole attempting to remove him from history bullshit would end, and i think in time they'll steer away from it.

yea, I interpreted that guys statement wrong. Should say that there are some moves that will forever be associated to a particular wrestler.

Do the words 'Canadian' and 'Destroyer' mean anything to you?

Seriously, Petey Williams was on tv for years just because of that move

Youell's got a point.

You could say the same about early DDP once he created the cutter as well

I mean...seriously...

When you hear the words....Quad....And Tear....Who comes to mind?

Pretty shocking that people would cheer him.

I can understand the thinking that people do bad things, but you can still respect the sum of their life. However I would apply that to a guy who sold knock off designer jeans or was involved in some type Panda smuggling ring.

The guy who MURDERS his wife and KID does not deserve to ever be applauded for anything. I dont care how f'd up he was from whatever, I still dont want to applaud the guy. IN fcat I would go far as to say I would never want to see any of his matches, and he was one of my favourite performers of all time.

I just cant get past what he did.

As for the Crossface, at the end of the day its a wrestling move, someone else will take it. I would just come up with a new name for it.

Ok ok...

A move can define a worthless piece of shit, but not someone that anyone would normally give a shit about.

I was a fucking huge Benoit fan and I'll still enjoy his matches since I refuse to allow him to take away my own memories. However, the man still killed his kid. The wife I couldn't forgive but women make men do crazy things. Killing your child though is only one step up from sexually abusing them in my book. Pity murder or not I don't know nor care. I can't see past it and I could never cheer the man's name. I wouldn't boo either.

You should probably be more sympathetic to the mentally handicapped. Especially as a wrestling fan.

Any man who can drive a car, memorize and execute spots and scripts for a wrestling match, and generally finction without assistance, should know that killing his family is not right.

I think people want to grasp at straws to explain what happened to him. Bottom line, I cant make excuses for the guy, I dont care what the excuses are for him, he did it, I cant cheer for him or any mention of his name.

I usually dont like when WWE erases people from their history, but in his case, I wish they could do more.

To be fair, he wasn't doing those things when he killed them. Everyone has a breaking point and maybe that's what happened and maybe he was just a cold hearted killer. That's no excuse though. Just pointing out maybe when you snap, you lose touch with reality.

I don't think WWE should erase him from history either. The double murder suicide still happened. Them ignoring his history though only insults the fans and his co-workers. Weird comparison would be Michael Jackson - I'd never buy anything to do with him or watch anything with him on it out of choice but that shouldn't take away my memories of growing up and thinking "Bad" and "Smooth Criminal" were the greatest songs I'd ever heard at that time.

Yeah I hear ya with Michael Jackson. I mean I have no problem with people having his DVD and watching his matches. I mean I have the best of DVD of his, but I just couldnt ever watch it. I just cant enjoy his matches, and I wish I could. I mean I was so excited being at WMXX and seeing him with the title at the time, but now that memory is no longer something I look at with fondness.

i can respect and understand someone saying they can't enjoy his work because of what he did. my kneejerk reaction after it all went down was that i felt betrayed by the man. i personally felt like he slapped every single one of his fans in the face. i even tossed the hard knocks dvd in the trash. but i got it back out and kept it, if only because i did enjoy him as a wrestler so much that i can't just pretend he never wrestled at all. and as for the betrayal bit, well i didn't know him personally and neither did any of us, so that logic was just stupid. what he did was haneous and reprehensible, no matter if it was drug related or because of head trauma or both. there's nothing worse than someone harming a child. but i can't justify the attempt to just blot him out of history like he never won a world heavyweight championship, a royal rumble, mainevented and won at wrestlemania, or any other accomplishment he had. it's one of those murky situations where the man is one thing, the performer is another. and as a fan of the performer i still appreciate and respect his work and for all the great memories he gave me as a wrestling fan.

1 - Yes you can. Sorry but people are entitled to do and feel however they like about a murderer.

2 - Who says he lost his mind? I mean we all hope that was the case but nobody but Chris Benoit will ever know the truth.

Spoken like someone with fuck all understanding of the human mind.

Benoit was clearly mentally ill; how much of that was from head trauma and how much was from drug (steroid) abuse is something that only the professionals could tell us, if anyone. But the thing is that his brain tissue was compared to an 80 year old with alzheimers. And alzheimers is one of those fun diseases where you can function fine one day and lose it the next. The same is true of many mental illnesses, for the record.

But think of it this way: You have a car with bad wiring. 9 days out of ten, it runs fine with almost no indication there's a problem, and day ten it melts down completely. Since cars these days are so computerised, it probably won't run, or will seriously screw up.

On any given day, Benoit was probably fine. But he had a short in his brain, and from the sound of it, a serious one.

That's ignoring the presumptuous notion of self that dictates that if someone can handle one task, it can handle another different one. The famous and trite notion of Einstein being unable to tie their shoes comes to mind. Assuming that everyone processes data in the same fashion is ridiculous, ignorant, and arrogant, and assuming that problems with one portion of the brain leads to problems with another is so fundamentally wrong that even the most basic information on the way the brain works should tell you otherwise. The brain is still somewhat of a msytery, but there are some things we very much understand, and one such instance is that different elements process different functions. That's why you can have people who can't string a word together, let alone a sentence, but can manage to handle complex mathematical functions like they were blinking.

So yeah. Someone with brain damage might be able to drive, might be able to remember wrestling moves (which is actually body memory) and even matches, and still have a short in his brain that melts down over the concept of right and wrong.

You don't know he went crazy. You don't know his mental state a year ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc, etc so you can't judge it. If people who investigate crimes for a living can't get answers to why this happened, a couple of wrestling marks have ZERO chance. You are right that rational people don't kill their families but there is a huge difference between rational and insane. There is too much evidence now to argue that he just snapped because that's impossible. People that snap don't bound and gag their wife one day and kill their child in his sleep with a wrestling hold the next day after playign with him all day infront of witnesses. And people that snap don't change their flight plans and call into work sick once they realise they are in the shit.

Anyway, people can argue about this forever because we will NEVER know the real answers. Repeat - WE'LL NEVER KNOW!

And just to add, yes it does make me superior to a fucking murderer. You see, they are the scum of the Earth and I'm not so I'm better. So is everyone else who has never killed someone. People know murder is wrong. Dogs don't know licking their balls is wrong (worst comparison ever by the way). This part of the discussion is over.

Benoit losing his mind is a theory. Benoit killing 2 people is a fact. I'm going with the facts. And yeah if you don't believe facts then talking to me is worthless. Try talking to a brick wall instead.

we don't know 100% what happened, no one does and no one ever will. i think it's a fairly safe assumption to say he went crazy though. look at all his friends who came out and spoke about him after all this happened. they talked about what a great guy he was, how he was always there for his friends and family, so taking that into consideration i can't just call him the scum of the earth and let it be that. thats extremely cut and dried for my tastes. i won't defend what he did at all, it was terrible and nobody can argue that. but it's just like Kane Knight said above, we don't know everything about the human brain and how it works. and yes, he could've tied his wife up, killed her, played with his son and killed him as part of a prolonged psychotic episode. that doesn't defend or excuse it, but it's happened before. we have no idea why he did it or what triggered it. he could've looked at them and saw demons staring back at him. maybe he through the world was gonna end in some horrific fashion and killing them was a mercy thing in his mind. again, not trying to defend his actions, just making a point that we have no idea what drives a person to madness and what's going through their mind when they go overboard. and it had to be madness if so many people have called him such a great guy and been shocked by what he did.

Yeah, Brain Damage+unreasonable acts+odd behaviour (the text messages)+Reports of odd behaviour off and on for at least a year=Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.

I cannot provide you with a black box recording of Benoit's thoughts, but reasonably, with the level of evidence we've been given, I shouldn't need to. Nobody should need that level of evidence.

That's all true. I'd love to believe the man just went insane in his last 3 days and it wasn't the real Chris Benoit. I respect what the people who knew him said about him after the deaths and I will always respect his abilities in the ring and I enjoyed many a match of his. However the fact still is he killed two innocent people and one was a child. Maybe you have to have your own children to understand fully how hard this is to understand I don't know. It absolutely makes my skin crawl just thinking of how someone could harm their own child.

Child? I'm older than you.

What happened to not talking to me?

Glad you can speak for the rest of the world though. Try explaining your theory to Nancy Sullivan's family.

And how exactly do you know Benoit lost his mind when NOBODY has scientific evidence to support it?

I just laughed at all of that. Stop trying to make yourself look smarter than everyone else. The bottom line is I chose to take this in black and white. There is no scientific evidence to suggest Benoit snapped or was insane. Over the weekend of the deaths, he did lots of things that were very rational. Was he insane? I don't know. I'm not qualified to make that judgement.

There is however evidence to say he killed Nancy and Daniel because he did. Therefore he is a murderer and I reserve the right to judge a murderer however I like. Just like you do. All the theories in the world are just that.

And how exactly am I holding onto negativity (like I should be speaking positive about a murderer mind you) whilst you continue to post on and yet according to you, you don't need validation of outsiders.

Finally, I'll say it one more time so it's clear. Benoit going insane was never proven and never will be. Benoit killing two people was proven beyond a doubt. Until you can prove to me that he went insane and provide evidence to support your theories, the possibility that Chris Benoit wasn't insane will always exist.

no one is saying that the fact that he killed a child isn't haneous. i don't think it takes having a child to understand that killing a child or even harming a child is wrong. but from all accounts by people who actually knew him, he was a loving father, that's why it doesn't make sense to just call him a complete bastard and leave it at that. there had to be a reason why he snapped, and we'll never know why, but something other than just "he's a fuckin scum bag murderer" caused this to go down.

because i'm a dork, i'm gonna use a nice comic book example to sum up how i feel about this. anyone ever read the killing joke by alan moore? the point of the book is simple, all it takes is one bad day to turn an ordinary man crazy, and i believe that. maybe it was drugs, maybe it was head trauma, maybe he had a mental illness on top of that and nobody knew about it. either way, something somewhere, somehow, snapped the guy and nobody knows what. now, rob has every right to judge benoit however he sees fit, that's fine. i don't personally like to judge people, but to each his own. no, there is no hardcore evidence that benoit was insane, it is speculation. if he would've stood trial and not killed himself, maybe evidence would've been to the contrary, maybe not. i believe, and i reserve the right to believe, that he didn't just kill his family for shits and giggles. not when he seemingly loved his family and talked warmly about them in several interviews. call me naive, i don't care, but i refuse to believe the dude was a walking psychopath who was just salivating at the chance to kill his family. and to me, there's plenty of evidence to show he was crazy. without the killings themselves, we have the cryptic text messages, cause any sane man texts friends and gives them their physical address over and over, the bibles, which is fuckin crazy on several levels, having a dead body in his home with his son there and swimming with his son after he killedher and before he killed him, that's pretty fuckin nuts, and talking to the neighbor the way he did, all this to me says the man was off his fuckin rocker when he did what he did. other people may see it otherwise, that's fine, it's an opinion, but i can't see the situation as anything but that the man went crazy somehow.

I'm sorry, but do you have a problem with your enter and/or return key? Or are you just morally opposed to formatting paragraphs?

yeah, paragraphs killed jesus.

God made paragraphs for a reason. It's part of his master plan.

Could you imagine reading the bible without a single break in the text?

Hogan's Leg Drop. It's all he ever did.

Khali technically just "roars", but i guess that could fuck someone's ears up, so I'll take that as a move. Enough said.

nah, using capital letters means the terrorists have won.

can't argue with that.

Actually I'm not saying he didn't lose his mind. I've already stated I hope that was the case but it isn't a fact. You thinking insane people are the only people who can commit murder and I'd very much disagree. And where is the evidence that Chris Benoit lost his mind? There isn't any. If there is, post again with said evidence or otherwise stop harping on about it. And it's fucking bullshit that none of it fits into his life. It's a fact he had restraining orders against him by his wife. It's a fact he had brain damage but the comparisons to 80 year old men with alzheimer's but it's also a fact that he showed ZERO physical evidence that backed this arguement. He very much functioned like a normal 40 year old man. And 80 year old men with alzheimers don't go around killing people either.

Again, like I've already said (and how many times do I need to go back to this?), I really hope Benoit was the man everyone said he was before this went down and he really just had a mental breakdown and lost it. This is all hope though because it can NEVER be proven. The only thing that is proven is that he is a murderer and if you wanna worship a murderer or make excuses for him without factual information and scientific results to back it then that's up to you. I choose not to. I choose to remember him as arguably the best wrestler ever who should have been remembered for that and instead is remembered for being a piece of shit murderer.

To me Benoit will always be one of the greatest wrestlers of all time.

I've said this a hundred times but if a mail man goes berserk a shoots a hundred people it doesn't mean he was a bad mail man.

What he did is inexcusable, but he was still GREAT at his job.

So Rob....You witnessed the murder?

By the way, who's making a defense of Benoit without scientific information? They did a fucking biopsy of his brain, FFS.

Rob Vs KK,

Man this is going to be good!

Not to mention, unless someone here witnessed the murders and has been holding out, is a psychic, or has access to police information we do not, we "know" Benoit killed his wife and kid in the same way we "know" he was mentally ill. To paint one as black and white and paint the other with some sort of inverse Occam's Razor is a bit ridiculous, since anyone could offer up the notion that we will never know for 100% sure what happened in that household. In fact, some people already have tried to put forth conspiracy theories, which do the same sort of thing.

We don't know exactly what happened, but we do have reasonable physical evidence to assume Benoit was the killer. While there may be bits and pieces that don't quite add up which can be thrown in out of context, and there's the uncertainty principle that can be played, there is no rational reason to assume Benoit wasn't the killer.

There also is no rational reason to look at what was reported which testifies to his mental state and say "well, we don't know he wasn't in his right mind," either. You can "choose not to" recognise the facts, but the evidence in question seems to be solid enough on multiple levels to suggest that Benoit was off his fucking rocker, just as the evidence suggests he's a murderer. Or killer, in any event.

LOL

The police have said there was no other possibility other than Chris Benoit doing both murders.

The biospy of the brain only proved he has brain damage. That doesn't mean he snapped in one weekend. It doesn't say how long the brain damage was present. Nobody had witnessed him doing anything unusual that would give anyone the idea something was mentally wrong with him. He did plenty of things that would give people the impression he was mentally sound that weekend including playing with his kid, rearranging plane tickets, calling work to explain his absence and driving to the doctors miles away.

Nobody can say for sure that brain damage caused him do it for sure. That's my point.

What is for sure is that he killed two people. See my point?

Afterlife - I'm done even reading your posts. Believe what you wanna believe dude.

I'm not trying to debate why Chris did what he did. You dont know that, I dont know that, nobody will ever know. Even if its true that his brain was that of a sick 80 year old man, that doesnt mean the killings were a result of him "snapping" Using your car analogy, how do we know this wasnt one of the 9/10 days that his brain is working fine, rather than the 1/10 where it breaks down? Maybe he hated his wife, maybe he hated the fact that his kid was small, maybe he was depressed, he could have been planning this for months. Maybe his brain was never functioning any better than it was on that day.

Anything we talk about here is nothing more than speculation, unless someone here talked with Bernoit prior to his death and heard about his plans. Which seems unlikely.

My point is I dont concern myself with why he did what he did. I just look at the fact that he killed his wife and his freakin kid. To me that means I never want to cheer him or think fondly about his life. But thats just me. If people want to cheer what he did in the past and they feel sorry for him and believe the THEORY that he snapped and didnt plot these murders, then fine, do your thing. I just wont be there cheering for a guy like that.

They came to that conclusion based on evidence that is reasonable, but not definitive. Don't pretend otherwise, because it's a lie. Doctors don't speak to absolute certainty in such cases, but the doctors who did speak on the matter were pretty clear on the matter. Basically, it's still "This is black and white based on evidence I choose to believe conclusively, but this isn't based on evidence I choose to dismiss as speculation." I mean, I honestly can't tell you what to believe. People think the use of the term "Theory" of Evolution means Evolution cannot be proven and has not been proven, and that's bullshit, too. It's just that the Police use different terminology than doctors, just like Christians use different terminology than reasonable people.

Chavo did it. Beniot just took the fall. Like that whole thing Eddie use to do with a chair.

Hey esse! Remember when I said I got some weird text messages from Chris?

I LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIED!

For the record, Nancy's sent txt messages seem to indicate that Chris was ready to go off his rocker at any moment. This, to me, just adds to the evidence that he had lost his mind and snapped when committing the murders.

It just makes the most sense, because according to those who knew him (not myself, acting as though I knew him personally), this was completely out of character for him. What else is there to believe, other than that he had snapped?

What he did as a wrestler still stands I suppose. I mean, it's not like his matches suddenly aren't 5 stars anymore. However, he is far from a legend. His reprehensible actions overshadow everything he's done and brought down a lot of damage to the business, let alone his family and peers. Ask the families and friends affected if they care about whether or not his match at ___ will be remembered. It hardly matters.

To be a legend in the business, you don't simply have a body of work but a legacy and respect. Benoit's legacy no matter what will always be that he killed his family and himself in one of the biggest and darkest scandals in the industry's history. Not just to the general population, but to fans and peers, whether they try to justify his status or not. You can't deny that that heavy black cloud hangs over him. To deny that is to be in denial.
So there goes his legacy. As for his respect, come on. There's little to none of that based on his actions, how can you possibly respect that man. And his contributions to the business are far outweighed by his evil actions and the firestorm he brought down.

Personally, as a former Benoit fan, I detest the man. For what he did in real life. This is real life, and just because he entertained me in a fantasy world at one time, doesn't mean he holds my respect and admiration. I can step out of entertainment and have face reality. I can't cheer him, enjoy him or what not. I can tolerate his matches if he happens to be in them at this point, but I don't see past it and to be honest it puts a huge damper on them.

I think having some sense of moral conviction for what happened in real life is far more important. And I see a lot of excuses and convenient spin/denial on what happened in real life made by fans in order to preserve in their mind some fictional character. They dillude themselves for a handful of matches they don't want to part with, instead of realizing the situation at face value and to me it's really quite pathetic because all of it means dirt compared to the raw reality of a man that choked his own son to death.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

The moral of this story: Don't dillude yourself. :lol:

Well, to be fair, how many people are going to say "He was a bad man. I can believe he did that. I'm sure he's down there looking up at us..."

Considering we're talking within the context of people who knew him?

Wait wait wait wait.. When did Flair mention Benoit?

I'm just sayin', wrestling fans act like they know more than the people who knew him.

Chris Benoit loved rainbow sprinkles.

NO ONE close to him knew that, he only ate chocolate sprinkles in front of them.

To me, to be 100% honest, I don't really give a goddamn who does what outside the ring. I'm sure if I was to be the almighty judge of morality, I'd hate most everybody on the planet for the shit they do. If people want to hate Chris Benoit the wrestler for being Chris Benoit the person, that's their choice, and they are free to make it. I'd rather look back at the fond memories I have of him as a wrestler, without caring at all who he was as a person because I didn't know him anyway.

I like Michael Jackon's music, he is probably a child molester. OJ Simpson was a hell of a football player, but he is probably a murderer. I'm sure plenty of other people who have entertained me have dark skeletons in their closet too, but I'd rather not try to hate on someone for a good body of work just because they did things wrong. But if that's what you wanna do, go for it.

JG i couldn't agree more... except for the liking michael jackson's music thing.

Not me, but then, I grew up on Ritchie Valens and the Who.

Pffff. Gay. :shifty:

THRILLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAA, thriller night!

Thanks for reminding me! I also grew up on Queen!

I saw (Half of) The Who last year, and I got tickets for Queen (albeit with Paul Rodgers) yesterday.

Coincidence? Of course not, they are 2 of the biggest rock bands of all time.

Is this the wrestling forum? :shifty:

Wrestling? That's so gay. ;)