Benoit

[taker707]

I know I know not another Beniot thread

Just thought this was interesting . I went to the HoF and Wrestlemania 24 and when Flair brought up Beniot the Place erupted in applause also when Triple H used the Crossface at Mania again the place erupted . Thoughts?

Is this a sign that Beniot will be remembered for his wrestling abilitys and not for the Horrific acts that he caused ?

[Loose Cannon]

to wrestling fans, of course

to non wrestling fans, no, he's a killer

[Vastardikai]

I wouldn't doubt it.

But at the same time, there's still a market for John Wayne Gacy paintings.

[El Fangel]

I was having a convo about this with Jeritron on AIM last night, my view was as LC's was.

[TerranRich]

Good Lord, I forgot about that part of the match! When I saw the Crossface, I nearly shit myself. And there was JR, calling the move over and over again, not hiding what it was. After so much time of hiding Benoit's past existence, that was shocking to say the least.

[RVDmark]

Its only a wrestling move. Benoit wasn't the only person ever to use it or the first. Whilst it was his signature move, one move doesn't define a person. It has been used since the Benoit deaths. Shawn Michaes used it in the match with Randy Orton when his SCM was banned. And I'm pretty sure either HHH or HBK used it on Raw previously too.

[Jura]

When I saw Triple H trying to pull of Cena, I was thinking "That would be cool if he did the crossface on Cena while Cena had the STF-U on Randy but that would never happen. If this match had Benoit it would happen". And then bam! Crossface!

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think the WWE, and wrestling fans, for the most part, realises that what Benoit did was probably caused my medical issues stemming from his professional wrestling career. While I doubt they're going to come right out and champion Benoit for public relations issues, it doesn't surprise me that you see little hints of tribute to him now and then.

He should one day go in the Hall of Fame. I hope he does get that honour.

[Loose Cannon]

Originally Posted by RVDmark one move doesn't define a person.

what are you talking about? sure it does. You only think of one person whe someone does a stunner, or when someone does a tombstone, the rock bottom, the pedigree, the frog splash. The crossface will always be Benoit, no matter who does it

[Heros Welcome]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon what are you talking about? sure it does. You only think of one person whe someone does a stunner, or when someone does a tombstone, the rock bottom, the pedigree, the frog splash. The crossface will always be Benoit, no matter who does it

Couldn't agree with you anymore LC. I mean when you see someone like Andy Douglas do the Pedigree you say Trips, Davey Richards does a Tombstone you think Taker. So I am on board in saying that Yes, one move can indeed define a person.

[Xero]

A wrestler may define a move, but one move does not define a wrestler.

[Good Ol JG]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 A wrestler may define a move, but one move does not define a wrestler.

true

[Lock Jaw]

When you see someone do a legdrop, you think Hogan.

[Good Ol JG]

but back to the topic at hand, yeah, i wish benoit would just be remembered for his wrestling ability. i can understand why he won't be inducted in the HoF, even though he deserves a spot based purely on ability, but the WWE would get slammed by the mainstream media for it. i do wish the whole attempting to remove him from history bullshit would end, and i think in time they'll steer away from it.

[Loose Cannon]

yea, I interpreted that guys statement wrong. Should say that there are some moves that will forever be associated to a particular wrestler.

[El Fangel]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon what are you talking about? sure it does. You only think of one person whe someone does a stunner, or when someone does a tombstone, the rock bottom, the pedigree, the frog splash. The crossface will always be Benoit, no matter who does it

When you see someone fuck up, you think Lita.

[Kane Knight]

ELVIS DIDN'T DO NO DRUGS.

[Dave Youell]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 A wrestler may define a move, but one move does not define a wrestler.

Do the words 'Canadian' and 'Destroyer' mean anything to you?

Seriously, Petey Williams was on tv for years just because of that move

[Kane Knight]

Youell's got a point.

[Dave Youell]

You could say the same about early DDP once he created the cutter as well

[Mister Sinister]

I mean...seriously...

When you hear the words....Quad....And Tear....Who comes to mind?

[The CyNick]

Pretty shocking that people would cheer him.

I can understand the thinking that people do bad things, but you can still respect the sum of their life. However I would apply that to a guy who sold knock off designer jeans or was involved in some type Panda smuggling ring.

The guy who MURDERS his wife and KID does not deserve to ever be applauded for anything. I dont care how f'd up he was from whatever, I still dont want to applaud the guy. IN fcat I would go far as to say I would never want to see any of his matches, and he was one of my favourite performers of all time.

I just cant get past what he did.

As for the Crossface, at the end of the day its a wrestling move, someone else will take it. I would just come up with a new name for it.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Dave Youell Do the words 'Canadian' and 'Destroyer' mean anything to you? Seriously, Petey Williams was on tv for years just because of that move

Ok ok...

A move can define a worthless piece of shit, but not someone that anyone would normally give a shit about.

[Rob]

I was a fucking huge Benoit fan and I'll still enjoy his matches since I refuse to allow him to take away my own memories. However, the man still killed his kid. The wife I couldn't forgive but women make men do crazy things. Killing your child though is only one step up from sexually abusing them in my book. Pity murder or not I don't know nor care. I can't see past it and I could never cheer the man's name. I wouldn't boo either.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Pretty shocking that people would cheer him. I can understand the thinking that people do bad things, but you can still respect the sum of their life. However I would apply that to a guy who sold knock off designer jeans or was involved in some type Panda smuggling ring. The guy who MURDERS his wife and KID does not deserve to ever be applauded for anything. I dont care how f'd up he was from whatever, I still dont want to applaud the guy. IN fcat I would go far as to say I would never want to see any of his matches, and he was one of my favourite performers of all time. I just cant get past what he did. As for the Crossface, at the end of the day its a wrestling move, someone else will take it. I would just come up with a new name for it.

You should probably be more sympathetic to the mentally handicapped. Especially as a wrestling fan.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight You should probably be more sympathetic to the mentally handicapped. Especially as a wrestling fan.

Any man who can drive a car, memorize and execute spots and scripts for a wrestling match, and generally finction without assistance, should know that killing his family is not right.

I think people want to grasp at straws to explain what happened to him. Bottom line, I cant make excuses for the guy, I dont care what the excuses are for him, he did it, I cant cheer for him or any mention of his name.

I usually dont like when WWE erases people from their history, but in his case, I wish they could do more.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Any man who can drive a car, memorize and execute spots and scripts for a wrestling match, and generally finction without assistance, should know that killing his family is not right.

To be fair, he wasn't doing those things when he killed them. Everyone has a breaking point and maybe that's what happened and maybe he was just a cold hearted killer. That's no excuse though. Just pointing out maybe when you snap, you lose touch with reality.

I don't think WWE should erase him from history either. The double murder suicide still happened. Them ignoring his history though only insults the fans and his co-workers. Weird comparison would be Michael Jackson - I'd never buy anything to do with him or watch anything with him on it out of choice but that shouldn't take away my memories of growing up and thinking "Bad" and "Smooth Criminal" were the greatest songs I'd ever heard at that time.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Rob To be fair, he wasn't doing those things when he killed them. Everyone has a breaking point and maybe that's what happened and maybe he was just a cold hearted killer. That's no excuse though. Just pointing out maybe when you snap, you lose touch with reality. I don't think WWE should erase him from history either. The double murder suicide still happened. Them ignoring his history though only insults the fans and his co-workers. Weird comparison would be Michael Jackson - I'd never buy anything to do with him or watch anything with him on it out of choice but that shouldn't take away my memories of growing up and thinking "Bad" and "Smooth Criminal" were the greatest songs I'd ever heard at that time.

Yeah I hear ya with Michael Jackson. I mean I have no problem with people having his DVD and watching his matches. I mean I have the best of DVD of his, but I just couldnt ever watch it. I just cant enjoy his matches, and I wish I could. I mean I was so excited being at WMXX and seeing him with the title at the time, but now that memory is no longer something I look at with fondness.

[Afterlife]

For the nth time: You cannot condemn a man for losing his mind. That is all.

[Good Ol JG]

i can respect and understand someone saying they can't enjoy his work because of what he did. my kneejerk reaction after it all went down was that i felt betrayed by the man. i personally felt like he slapped every single one of his fans in the face. i even tossed the hard knocks dvd in the trash. but i got it back out and kept it, if only because i did enjoy him as a wrestler so much that i can't just pretend he never wrestled at all. and as for the betrayal bit, well i didn't know him personally and neither did any of us, so that logic was just stupid. what he did was haneous and reprehensible, no matter if it was drug related or because of head trauma or both. there's nothing worse than someone harming a child. but i can't justify the attempt to just blot him out of history like he never won a world heavyweight championship, a royal rumble, mainevented and won at wrestlemania, or any other accomplishment he had. it's one of those murky situations where the man is one thing, the performer is another. and as a fan of the performer i still appreciate and respect his work and for all the great memories he gave me as a wrestling fan.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Afterlife For the nth time: You cannot condemn a man for losing his mind. That is all.

1 - Yes you can. Sorry but people are entitled to do and feel however they like about a murderer.

2 - Who says he lost his mind? I mean we all hope that was the case but nobody but Chris Benoit will ever know the truth.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Any man who can drive a car, memorize and execute spots and scripts for a wrestling match, and generally finction without assistance, should know that killing his family is not right.

Spoken like someone with fuck all understanding of the human mind.

Benoit was clearly mentally ill; how much of that was from head trauma and how much was from drug (steroid) abuse is something that only the professionals could tell us, if anyone. But the thing is that his brain tissue was compared to an 80 year old with alzheimers. And alzheimers is one of those fun diseases where you can function fine one day and lose it the next. The same is true of many mental illnesses, for the record.

But think of it this way: You have a car with bad wiring. 9 days out of ten, it runs fine with almost no indication there's a problem, and day ten it melts down completely. Since cars these days are so computerised, it probably won't run, or will seriously screw up.

On any given day, Benoit was probably fine. But he had a short in his brain, and from the sound of it, a serious one.

That's ignoring the presumptuous notion of self that dictates that if someone can handle one task, it can handle another different one. The famous and trite notion of Einstein being unable to tie their shoes comes to mind. Assuming that everyone processes data in the same fashion is ridiculous, ignorant, and arrogant, and assuming that problems with one portion of the brain leads to problems with another is so fundamentally wrong that even the most basic information on the way the brain works should tell you otherwise. The brain is still somewhat of a msytery, but there are some things we very much understand, and one such instance is that different elements process different functions. That's why you can have people who can't string a word together, let alone a sentence, but can manage to handle complex mathematical functions like they were blinking.

So yeah. Someone with brain damage might be able to drive, might be able to remember wrestling moves (which is actually body memory) and even matches, and still have a short in his brain that melts down over the concept of right and wrong.

[Afterlife]

Originally Posted by Rob 1 - Yes you can. Sorry but people are entitled to do and feel however they like about a murderer. 2 - Who says he lost his mind? I mean we all hope that was the case but nobody but Chris Benoit will ever know the truth.

1 - No, you can't. It might make you feel superior to him, or make you stand taller in your own image, knowing that murder is bad. But telling a crazy person that acting on insane impulses is wrong is like kicking a dog for licking his balls. It may seem indecent to you, but it's all the dog knows as "normal".

2 - Who says he lost his mind? Rational people. Do you honestly think a mentally healthy individual would kill their spouse and child? That's just a stupid fucking argument. Of course he went crazy.

3 - Kane Knight is absolutely right -- and you know he's right, because I'm actually agreeing with him. The man's brain was a fucking timebomb. Had this been a premeditated scheme, then sure, roast the guy all you want. But there was no logic behind the entire event and the people that say he was a bad man are hardly human themselves.

[Rob]

You don't know he went crazy. You don't know his mental state a year ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, etc, etc so you can't judge it. If people who investigate crimes for a living can't get answers to why this happened, a couple of wrestling marks have ZERO chance. You are right that rational people don't kill their families but there is a huge difference between rational and insane. There is too much evidence now to argue that he just snapped because that's impossible. People that snap don't bound and gag their wife one day and kill their child in his sleep with a wrestling hold the next day after playign with him all day infront of witnesses. And people that snap don't change their flight plans and call into work sick once they realise they are in the shit.

Anyway, people can argue about this forever because we will NEVER know the real answers. Repeat - WE'LL NEVER KNOW!

[Rob]

And just to add, yes it does make me superior to a fucking murderer. You see, they are the scum of the Earth and I'm not so I'm better. So is everyone else who has never killed someone. People know murder is wrong. Dogs don't know licking their balls is wrong (worst comparison ever by the way). This part of the discussion is over.

[Afterlife]

So, I can't judge that he lost his mind, but you can judge him as "scum of the earth". At least you've pointed out that talking to you is worthless.

[Rob]

Benoit losing his mind is a theory. Benoit killing 2 people is a fact. I'm going with the facts. And yeah if you don't believe facts then talking to me is worthless. Try talking to a brick wall instead.

[Good Ol JG]

we don't know 100% what happened, no one does and no one ever will. i think it's a fairly safe assumption to say he went crazy though. look at all his friends who came out and spoke about him after all this happened. they talked about what a great guy he was, how he was always there for his friends and family, so taking that into consideration i can't just call him the scum of the earth and let it be that. thats extremely cut and dried for my tastes. i won't defend what he did at all, it was terrible and nobody can argue that. but it's just like Kane Knight said above, we don't know everything about the human brain and how it works. and yes, he could've tied his wife up, killed her, played with his son and killed him as part of a prolonged psychotic episode. that doesn't defend or excuse it, but it's happened before. we have no idea why he did it or what triggered it. he could've looked at them and saw demons staring back at him. maybe he through the world was gonna end in some horrific fashion and killing them was a mercy thing in his mind. again, not trying to defend his actions, just making a point that we have no idea what drives a person to madness and what's going through their mind when they go overboard. and it had to be madness if so many people have called him such a great guy and been shocked by what he did.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah, Brain Damage+unreasonable acts+odd behaviour (the text messages)+Reports of odd behaviour off and on for at least a year=Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.

I cannot provide you with a black box recording of Benoit's thoughts, but reasonably, with the level of evidence we've been given, I shouldn't need to. Nobody should need that level of evidence.

[Afterlife]

Originally Posted by Rob Benoit losing his mind is a theory. Benoit killing 2 people is a fact. I'm going with the facts. And yeah if you don't believe facts then talking to me is worthless. Try talking to a brick wall instead.

Don't be more arrogant than yo'uve earned, kid. You are fully aware that I didn't deny the murders, so don't go on about me "not believing in facts". There is a time to be an asshole, and there is a time to use your fucking brain like a grown-up.

If you want to close your eyes and cover your ears and pretend that it makes sense for a sane man to do what he did, then fine -- go play in Righteous Indignatin Land. The rest of the world is pretty well rested on the notion that he lost it. But, if you're willing to listen to anything before hiding from reality for a moment, understand this: Neither I nor anyone else is saying what he did was good or something to be forgotten. But it was clearly insane. And, wether it makes you comfortable or not, you cannot condemn a man for losing his mind.