Wrestling KO
 

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Some of these ar epretty whack yeah. Some...


AAA / CMLL:

- Rey Mysterio Jr.-Not in 96, not ever.
- Psicosis- No. Just no.
- Casas- Even steven.
- Santo- No
- Dandy- No
- Juventud Guerrera- Never in his wildest dreams.
- Fuerza Guerrera- No
- Blue Panther- no
- Apollo Dantes- no
- Silver King- no
- Felino- no
- Bestia Salvaje- no
- Atlantis- no
- Volador- no
- Lizmark- no
- Dos Caras- Not in 96 no.
- Cicloncito Ramirez- no
- Damiancito El Guerrero- no

WWF / WCW / ECW:

- Austin- no
- Bret Hart- Even
- Benoit- yes
- Eddy Guerrero- not in 96
- Malenko- yes
- Finlay- in my opinion, but I'm a mark for him
- Regal- no
- Foley- hell no
- Scorpio- even
- Steve Williams- no
- Vader- by a mile better than HBM
- Dan Kroffat- no

All Japan / New Japan:

- Misawa- yes
- Kawada- yes
- Kobashi- yes
- Taue- no
- Akiyama- Fuck yes
- Hashimoto- no
- Liger- ...tough to say, gonna go with even
- Ohtani- no
- Kanemoto- even
- Ultimo Dragon- yes

AJW / JWP / GAEA / LLPW:

- Aja Kong- no
- Hokuto- no
- Kansai- no
- Mayumi Ozaki- no


FMW / IWA / M-Pro / WAR:

- Tenryu- not in 96
- Gran Hamada- yes
- TAKA Michinoku- no
- Great Sasuke- nah
- Orihara- no
- Dick Togo-no
- Fujinami-no

UWFi / RINGS / BattlArts:

- Takada- no
- Anjoh - love the guy but come on
- Yamazaki-no
- Ishikawa-no
- Ikeda-no
- Fujiwara-no
- Han-no
- Tamura-no
- Kohsaka-no
- Sano-no
- Kakihara-no
- Takayama- even-ish
- Sakuraba-nope
- Yoshihisa Yamamoto- no

*Maybe:

- Otsuka
- Heavy Metal
- Villano III
- Satanico
- Super Astro
- Solar
- Texano
- Jerry Estrada
- El Samurai
- Nagai
- Kanehara
- Toyota
- Emilio Charles Jr.
- Severn
- Jamie Dundee
- Sabu
- Sandman
- Eaton
- Dave Taylor
- Shocker
- Dr. Wagner, Jr.


No to ALL the maybes.

Crap list.

lol at Sandman making it to the maybe list.

I just read that their reasoning was Sandman's involvement in the Raven/Dreamer feud. Still don't give a fuck.

Honestly I don't know who most of those guys are either.

He didn't make the list FA. :roll:

No owen or Pillman? wtf?

Who are you to doubt El Dandy? :mad:

:lol:

That guy is a serious professional.

Whats your point?

Why is this even a question? The fact that people are so intent on trying to convince themselves that Shawn Michaels is/never was as good as he actually was that they would try to force a list of 50 guys better than him is pretty sad.

I'm not saying everyone needs to side with me that Shawn is the greatest wrestler of our time but if you really don't believe him to be one of the 50 best wrestlers in the business in '96, you're in denial. Plain and simple.

Very much agree. Don't see why someone would be hell bent on proving him to never have been any good...oh wait. ZenvWo...nevermind...

While I'm not the biggest fan of Shawn Michaels, that list is pretty bogus. Sandman on the maybe list? That gave it right away.

Michaels may not be the best, but he is definitely up there.

I agree.

The list is, more or less, laughable in some places. Some people are, and some people damn good arguements can be made for. A lot of them though are just stretches, and not good ones at that.

With that said, it's not like it isn't 100% subjective anyway. Especially when it comes down to the style of wrestling, the strenghts and weaknesses of people, and just exactly what is being compared.

Completely true, regardless I'm still typing this Noid post up. But none of it's debateable, every last bit of it is nothing more than personal preference. Whatever though.

I think the best one is probably Steve Williams. Clearly, a superior worker than Shawn.

Lucha is wildly over-rated just ftr. If I had to rate each style in the world it would come in under Memphis 101. For the record dont expect some big debate from out of this as EVERY BIT of it is personal preference. You can't really be wrong or right in these matters. also want to note I wasn't watching the WWF too much at this point as it had grown VERY stale for me. But I will say HBM was almost the only thing redeemable about the product at that point.

Anywho:

Rey- Why isn't he in the WCW/ECW category here? He spent more time in 96 working there, At the time Mysterio was making waves in a big way, bringing a style not many had seen at that point in the states. But since I had, I wasn't caught up in cruiser-fever. Rey went out and does what he always did, run spots. Sorry not impressed. Rey has never, and will never, be only the level of an HBM/Bret Hart/Dragon/etc. He doesn't have the mind for it, but to be fair, Lucha doesn't require thinking, just a good memory.

Protip: Funniest thing in the world is watching a multi-man lucha match and one of the guys forgets the next part of the spot, you'll see 6 guys standing around having no clue what to do. It's awesome.

-Psicosis: Again, spent over half of the year in the states as a curtain jerker. Actually one of my favorite Luchas. Watching him wrestle Rey was extremely enjoyable seeing him play up his (despite the fact he isn't a large man) is something that's always fun. And you have to admit the he and Rey were drawing pretty big at the time. But better workers than HBM? Not by a mile. HBM could've drawn in Mexico in 96. (To be fair the WWF brand could have, but the point is he would have be hailed as a top tier star.) Could Psicosis come here and do that? No. When you add the fact his matches had psychology it's a no brainier who I'm going to side with.

- Dandy anything after Satanico vs. El Dandy hair vs. hair in 92 wasn't worth two shits. Sorry, that was the end of prime if you ask me.

- Juventud Guerrera again spent half of the year in WCW. They need their own bracket. You have throw a shout out to the Rey/Juvi matches that year (I've heard people claim the match between them in Tiawanna of that year was one of the greatest of all time. I hunted it down probably 6 months ago and wasn't THAT impressed. Way over hyped) and his title win over El Hijo del Santo, which was probably the biggest win of his career and a good match (great for the style.) But comparing him to HBM? HBM was carrying people to good matches at that point. Juvi couldn't carry someone to save his life. And for that HBM will always be > Juvi.

- Fuerza Guerrera he spent like what? Half that decade tagging in trios? Hard to compare a tag guy to a singles guy. At least for me.

- Blue Panther- Pretty sure he was running his won company in 96...cant remember the name of it for the life of me. But I'm VERY sure he didn't go back to triple A until 97 after their rosters had been raided by WCW. And there wasn't anything memorable from that promotion. Which is why it failed so quickly. The Mexicans didn't even like it.

- Apollo Dantes- he was in a downward slump in 96 as well. HBM was on the top of his game (well, until his come back I suppose.)

- Silver King- Another guy who was tagging in 96, hard for me to make a comparison to a tag guy.

- Felino- I can't remember him doing anything of note in 96. Now I remember his run in NJPW but I'm pretty sure that was 98. SO I know he was in CMLL. SO that probably means he too was tagging with Either Blue Panther or Olympico. But still not on HBMs level.

- Bestia Salvaje he's only on this list due to his recent death. It's laughable that he would even be mentioned and belongs on the maybes. And the only reason he isn't is becuase he's foreign and less people would complain.

- Atlantis- he was tagging, I have an automatic disposition to view singles guys as superior to tags. It's a thing.

- Volador- please tell me what qualifies him to even be considered.

- Lizmark see Atlantis AND Volador.

- Dos Caras- 96 was so far past his prime it's stupid to put him on here. He was having classics in 96 the same way Hogan was.

- Cicloncito Ramirez- Damiancito El Guerrero- Bunching these two together cause if you had asked this same question about 1997 these two would be a yes for obvious reasons. You didn't and they weren't.
============================================================

Just for the record I'm not a fan of Lucha. I think it's some of the worst wrestling you'll find this side of Jack Evens (conversely I think if you remove Lucha I wouldn't have to deal with the Jack Evans' of the world [so fuck you Lucha]) I think it's shit. I'll take the hardcore style over Lucha, it's not for me. So if you ask me if a bunch of Lucha guys were better than HBK in 96? Hell. no.

The Vader one boggles my mind.

I loved Vader but "by a mile" better than Michaels!? The man was great but the fact that you singled him out as "by a mile" better where everyone else is just a yes for the most part makes it sound like a shock value choice. Just saying.

I can't speak for Destor, but I'd go as far as saying Vader was the best big man in the business, one of the, if not the biggest gaijin wrestler in Japan. Vader was what a big man wrestler should strive to be. Vader being a huge threat was no stretch of the imagination.

Vader was the best big man in the business. Without a doubt, IMO.

hbk lost his smile around 96.This list could be why.

Oh man that list made me laugh.

They forgot:

Shane Douglas
The Pug
Rocco Rock
Hardbody Harrison
Beau Beverly
911
Renegade
Kenny Kaos

Yeah I didnt make the list.

bret hart made the list.

That he did.

Juventud Guerrera is being seriously underrated here.

An HBM is a Heart break man.

You know, if you're going to ask people to go through and justify each one, maybe you should start justifying WHY they're better than HBK. Start with the Lucha, then go onto the shooters ;)

Also, I have to agree with Destor 100% in that the majority of Lucha is unwatchable IMO. To those who like it, good for you, but I prefer a bit more psychology.

How was shane douglas a better worker then HBM in 96?... or anytime for that matter :?:

I think that HBK/M is an asshole (or used to be), and even I think that he was in the 50 best wrestlers in the world in 1996.

I don't even know where to begin.

:nono:

Shawn Michaels was easily top 5 in 1996. Discussion over.

Nope.

Not gonna get into the shoot guys as thats a whole argument about it not really being wrestling more being working mma/wrestling hybrid that I don't wann get into. (Love the stuff though.)

But there are loads of good workers on that list, but form 95-ish too 97 HBM is eaily top 50 in the world. The only people who say otherwise are people who hate the mainstream style and/or anti-kliq marks. Which if that's your perogative, whatever. It's all about personal prefference. Not really any way someone can be right here.

You're going to be hard pressed to find someone who is going to argue about shoot style wrestling, as A, most people haven't seen it, or B, they don't like it. I'm not a HUGE fan of it. I can watch it, but in small doses. Ultimately, yes, it's wrestling, but it's not wrestling that casual wrestling fans, or even wrestling lovers, are definitely going to like.

Once again though, it comes back to what we're comparing. Comparing Kakihara or Sakuraba to Shawn Micheals is a bit off to say the least, since not only do they wrestle different styles, but the companies they wrestle for are totally different. One is try to be "realistic" while the other is blatantly trying to do entertainment. HBK doesn't need to worry about wrestling as in depth as some of the shooters, but likewise, the shooters don't have as many concerns about working a mic, playing up the crowd as much, etc.

And like I said before, it all comes down to preference anyway. You're going to be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't like the shoot style to say that any of them are better than HBK, because they will,. probably by default, prefer HBK's style. The opposite is also true.

On a side note, Kakihara has the greatest STO ever.

Really don't agree with that sentance, there are a lot of ways to perform that aren't pro-wrestling. If two MMA fighters went out and worked a fight it wouldn't suddenly be wrestling, it would be something entirley different and entirerly new. Which on the same token this shoot style is.

I really hate faggots like you . " What about Owen? What about Brian Pillman ". Owen Hart sucked cock for 80% of his career ok? He wasnt that good. They both were rather average. You've glorified these fucks so much that you act like they were two of the greatest ever. They werent. Ok? Stop. Just stop suckiing so much cock.

fucking cock suckers

By that logic a rigged boxing match is pro-wrestling.

Seriously though, I dissagree. Being rigged doesn't make something pro-wrestling, that makes it a work. My two cents.

Based on the logic of the Sandman being good in the Raven/Dreamer feud in 1996, I am nominated Kamala for being better than HBK in 1996 because of how he never broke kayfabe. Plus he has bodyslammed Andre the Giant which is something I am willing to bet none of the fifty guys on your list has done.

Could you be any more wrong?

Give your head a shake.:nono:

While I don't agree with RP to that extent, Owen is vastly over rated.

As a what? In fact, he's vastly underrated, and always has been. Christ, if guys like Benoit could hold a world title, Owen should have held it 5 times over that.

Owen was just as agile and high flying based as HBK, except he had a little more skill on his feet as well.

imo, Owen took the best of his brother and the best of HBK and meshed them together.

Pillman was much like Owen, except Pillman on the mic schools everyone else, charisma wise and ability wise.

Pillman is up there in that elite class of stick work.

I'm not discounting HBK by saying these two easily compete with him.

But I am saying Owen and Pillman in 96 most definitely belonged on just such a list, especially if you're going to include a bunch of shit on that list, whose names I dont even have to mention, they are so silly.

The fact that this even needed to be said saddens me...

And I'm kind of right in the middle on the Owen discussion.

I DO think people overrate the man simply because he died in his prime.

I'm not gonna bash him though by completely discounting everyone's high ranking of him because he was VERY good IMO. I just don't find him to have ever been better than HBK.

The best of his brother and the best of HBK and meshed them together? I think God took the best of two special olympic kids, meshed them together, ate it, shit it out and called it your brain. I dont even know alot of about wrestling, but i know enough to comfortably call you a fucking retard for making that post.:wave:

Name me 5 specific promos Brian Pillman ever did that were elite.

< I win

Brian Pillman in 1996 didn't even wrestle a match. How the fuck can he be in the top 50?

I'm talking about his skill alone. It's easily applicable. Besides that, Bret took most of 96 off as well.

Shit Davey Boy isnt even on the list, meanwhile the fucking sandman made it.

And RP, that right there proves that you really dont watch much wrestling so arguing with you over something you are quite literally ignorant about would be futile.

Skill alone doesn't count. Pillman wasn't the same after his injuries. You might as well say Bret Hart is the best in the world in 2008 when he hasn't had a match because he was awesome 8 years ago.

And Bret worked 5 months in the WWF on TV and then every foreign tour too. And his matches with Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin alone were enough to put him on the list even if he only had 2 matches that year.

lol

I win again. You cant name 5 elite promo's Pillman did. Instead you just call me dumb. ROFLDAIRYQUEEN!

< winner

Pillman had wicked promos. I don't know where you're going with that one.

I love how I see this "Wrestling KO" site being advertised on all sorts of message boards with this retarded list but they can't get any more than the same 10 circle-jerkers posting there.

That's pretty arrogant

LOL you sound a little hurt, maybe because no-one wants to post on your shitty site?

I glanced at your little board and noticed it's the same group of disgruntled posters that DVDVR doesn't even like.

Yeah... that's it. People just say Shawn was easily one of the 50 best wrestlers of '96 because they didn't watch enough non-wwe.

Maybe if I start making ridiculous claims like that, people will think I'm a genius who just happens to know more than them! Let me give it a shot...

Let's all start a list of 50 guys who were bigger draws than The Rock. GO!

1) Andy Kaufman

2) Kamala

Debatable... :-\

How about we make a list of dumb Mexican wrestlers whose lack of judgment caused them to allow themselves to be de-masked, ostracizing themselves from Mexican wrestling, leading to a handful of angry smarks being bitter at Kevin Nash and the Clique, over a decade after the fact?

1) Rey Mysterio Junior

Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd.

How am I a racist for correctly labeling Rey Mysterio Junior as dumb?

Like, see, if I was talking about Ian Rotten, I would say "dumb American wrestler".

Ultimo Tiger, you're one hell of a character. Don't stop.

3 & 4) The Killer Bees

:naughty:

4) Lawrence Taylor

5) Floyd Mayweather

Gotta love a man with a plan.

What a load of bullshit. You know a wrestler is a draw when people buy tickets and PPV's to watch him. A very minor amount of people buy shows for undercards. You ask anyone who watched WWF/E in the last ten years if they paid to watch Steve Austin or The Rock and it's a guaranteed answer in the positive.

Next.

6) The Berserker

I almost forgot about Austin. One COULD make the argument that he is one of the 50 biggest draws of all time too. But I'm only judging that based on watching him and how popular he was and the merchandise he sold and the ratings when he was on top and PPV buy rates and such during the era in which he was on top. Tough to really judge if he was a draw or not from that.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt I GUESS. :o

so 7) Austin

8) VINCE MCMAHON
9) Jim Ross
10) RoboCop (Take some time away from watching nothing but WWE and look it up people. Definitely drew more than Rock if you look at the big picture.)

Was Steve Austin the guy who invented that "Austin 3:16" clothing line? I remember seeing like 10 million of those shirts.

Actually WWE only sold like 15 of those shirts. The millions you saw were just the same 15 shirts that were passed around via yard sales, e-bay, and disgruntled fans who were sick of waiting for the whole "Austin" craze to take off and just gave them away. Whenever someone was seen with one of the shirts on, WWE would show them on TV, making it seem like more existed. If you ever saw any in person, it was just right place right time.

In fact, considering how many were produced and never sold, WWE probably lost millions because of Austin. He's off the list. He may actually be the worst draw in wrestling history...

Robocop was shit in 1996 after his ankle surgery. Take him off the list, we don't want to lose street cred.

lol. Then did you have a point in making the original statement?

You're trying to say Shawn Michaels was not one of the 50 best wrestlers in 1996.

My point with the whole "50 bigger draws than the Rock" thing isn't to show how ridiculous your statement is. The sentence above shows that without anything else needing to be said.

My point was that you think you're going to sound smart simply by making a ridiculous statement like one of the greatest workers of all time wasn't in the top 50 workers in 1996 and trying to sound like a "well educated wrestling fan" to back it up.

"No one can argue my point because I'll just call them out on not knowing anything outside WWE and I'LL seem like the smart one, while they all sound like they don't know what they're talking about."

Therefore, I made a ridiculous statement. "The Rock was not one of the 50 biggest draws of all time" and began a list of guys that I could make dumb arguments for hoping I could just claim to be more educated than them when i got called out.

LOL Tigger

You act like prefference is a fact. For the record, blue is clearly superior to orange and if you think any different you're a fool.

If there was ever a fact about one colour being better than another then this is is. Dundee FC wear blue :y: Dundee United (filthy arab bastards) wear orange :n:

Perfect logic there.

And orange is actually banned from my house unless it's a fruit. My ex bought orange and black clothes pegs for the washing line. I threw them all out immediately and she called me a psycho. I told my dad what she did. He said I should have thrown her out too. A wise man he is.

LOL, wtf happened here?

Blue is better than orange. Keep up will you.

Thank you for making my day.

After strenous study
 

From what I gather, Ultimo tiger took like 17 hits of acid and made a post. Now he thinks he's an orange who is 15x better than Shawn Michaels?