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Combos: A Historic Evaluation
Are fighting games too reliant on multi-hit combo systems? Before we go on, a little history is in order.
The idea of combos began as a bug in Street Fighter 2 (like many of it's common systems, actually). Essentially, the recovery of an attack is shorter than a target's hitstun, giving you a series of uninterrupted attacks. Along with an early form of buffering, combos became examples of top level play in the early fighter communities. Capcom allowed these bugs and embraced them in later versions of Street Fighter 2 (including the first Combo Counter appearing in Super 2). Combos were welcomed into fighting game development, and expanded to include juggles and dial-a-combo structures. Killer Instinct's entire engine focused on combos of (then) crazy length. Even 3D fighters came out embracing combos, with Virtua Fighter introducing preset strings of attacks that defined 3D fighters indefinitely. So where did combos in fighters take us? Well it revealed that certain bastards aren't above discovering, and exploiting, infinites. It also separated the regulars from the timing experts of the fighting community. Just about every fighting game worth it's salt has a Combo Counter to let you know how many hits you landed after mashi- formulating your last attack package. It's just a normal facet of fighting games. But is it required? And is it even an indicator of skill anymore? I remember me and my buds getting better at Tekken 3 and Soul Calibur in the late 90s. We got good at our chosen characters and developed a kind of play that varied from what the general fighting community adopted. We had a tit-for-tat 'where will I attack' format where we took the Namco fighter's style of high/mid/low hit areas and made it a guessing game. We'd try to trick out each other with various stances and patterns of the characters. For all we knew that's how Namco intended. Then we finally met up with other gamers outside of our own living rooms, some great players, and... exchanged philosophies. We learned that the Namco fighting game landscape was rife with combo strings and technical traps in both Tekken and Soul Calibur series. For a time we thought we were playing it wrong the whole time! Then we noticed that these players were not used to blocking low. A small detail that evened up the landscape just a bit. We were mystified at how clueless they were regarding rather simplistic attack patterns that weren't dependent on long juggles and tech traps. Still, their style was superior and we needed to play to win. We adopted this style of into our own and became better for it. We never really did abandon our philosophy, however. I bring this up because I've noticed Soul Calibur and Tekken crept slowly toward being combo-centric games. For me this was an acceptable yet annoying change of climate. I looked at Tekken videos showcasing ridiculous strings of juggles that just didn't speak to me a fight - but a game of launchers to get your opponent on some inescapable intake of damage. I imagine Tekken 6 will still allow our kind of gameplay, but new videos confirm even more reliance on juggles. Soul Calibur 4 features a Combo Counter, a first for the series. Street Fighter 4 features a rather open combo system, with Sakura loving every moment of it. You know what I see when I watch these so-called 'tournament videos'? Endless strings of combos and jockeying for opportunities for more combos. I mean this is great for something like 3rd Strike, where big combos are limited to training mode set-ups and you need to think on your feet. Killer Instinct of course is a concept fighter for combos. But I'm not impressed with 10+ hit strings in Tekken and impossible juggles in Soul Calibur. To me that does not present a fight, but a contest of dialing in buttons without fear of reprisal. I had silent disagreements with this convention for years, keeping it in until now. I think new fighting games should lessen the need for combos and increase other forms of offensive strategy. Now this isn't me whining about bringing fighting games to adjust to our methods, oh no, that's not my intention. I like a good combo, I just don't like a game being defined by it's combos. Khuntry and some others can attest that I am an agent of gameplay balance and competitive structure. I personally believe both opponents of similar skill should have nothing but their own minds and characters in a fair engine that did not bow to a specific player's style. In short, a character for a player's style is fine, but not an entire gameplay engine. And most of these engines are combo-centric. So how do you guys feel about combos and how fighting games use them? Do you think they should flourish or succumb to more open systems that celebrates a broader range of player's styles? |
C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER
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I think you should stick with the haduken forums for your video game discussions. That is ridiculous.
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Knew this was a kalyx thread as soon as I saw the title.
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lol
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Mmmm...Salsa.
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I'm just going to say.
That I agree with you. And I read the whole thing.. that makes me gay, apparently. Who new discussing video games in a video game discussion forum was a homosexual act? |
I don't think he's gay. He is definitely a virgin though.
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Kalyx 100% wanks off over cartoons.
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Not 100 percent. :shifty:
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What type of magazine? Gaylord Monthly?
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Yes... Gaylord Monthly. :roll:
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I want a subscription.
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I want two.
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Super V.
Come on dude. Think about this one for a sec. |
Don't worry, I will relay the message to Kalyx for Super V.
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WOAH, pretty strong stuff. |
So I'm missing out on some compelling posts, huh?
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This train's heading to Vegas, baby.
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Wow tough crowd.
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I'm a massive fucking fighting game nerd and even I find your opinions to be boring and specifically rung off on subjects that wouldn't be entertaining anyhow.
Also, my friend was bitching last week about how SFIV doesn't have a good combo system. Not that it doesn't, he was just being a dumbass. Just saying, two sides of the coin and whatnot. Plus, Tekken and SC have always been combo centric. That's part of why I don't like them, don't play them, and don't act like they're somehow telling of the rest of the fighting game industry. Cheers. |
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Series had juggles as early as II, though. Edge and Calibur's combo status are debatable, but when two through four have serious combo mechanics, you can't act like you've never seen this shit before. And again, Tekken. Don't play it up like this is some shocking phenomenon that only recently swept the gaming industry. |
And also, like I said, alot of fighters don't rely on dial-a-combos. It's a certain sect of (mostly) 3D fighters. Basically, some fighters are combo heavy--some aren't. Bitching about games being combo heavy when they're not all that way is basically just bitching about the few that are like that being the way they are.
They're combo heavy games. They're made that way. On purpose. Don't want dial-a-combos? Play a different game. It's not a flaw and it's not a problem. It's personal taste. I don't like fighting games like that, so--gasp--I play other fighters instead. |
And even further than that, half these YouTube dial-a-combos don't actually work in-game. All it takes is one little upset to fuck your 45 Hit Kilik masterpiece up. Online exhibitions are mostly just that--it's like, y'know, the videogame equivalent of Capoeira or Drunken Master. It's totally sweet to watch, but nobody ever wins fights with that shit.
But I think Kalyx already got a similar response when he posted this exact, identical thread, verbatim, full copypasta mode on the Shoryuken forums. |
I think tekken and SC are more combo heavy with casual players, but at tournament level, it's more about poking, and strategy.
Dunno for sure, but thats what I would guess. |
Tekken has no choice but to be combo-oriented though to be honest. There are very few "special" moves in it.
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Soul Calibur, as a series, was NEVER as combo heavy as it is now. I can barely take you serious after reading that sort of comment. NEVER EVER. I can't even begin to argue that without a gay use of CAPS. Where did you get that from? Wow. Edge and Calibur are NOT debatable, they just did not play toward combos. They had combos, but were not combo centric.
Ya know how many tourny matches I can pull up right now at this minute that showcases in-match combos FTW? Look up 3rd Strike + Tourny and watch the Combo Counter rise as people use it in real contest. I know the vids you're talking about with people setting up combos so they can masturbate to their dialing skills but you can't actually believe I'd cite those as supporting evidence to my argument? I would all of a sudden not know the difference? We're both game geeks (pfft, any of us in here), in this subject I know what I'm talking about. You? You said Soul Calibur was combo centric. Hard to pass that road sign. And Figgy's right to a degree. The thing is all those pokes and positioning are for landing some way to combo off some damage. You might think in that sense it was earned, and you are correct depending on the game. But Tekken should not have went down that route. Preset attack strings and limited juggles should have been the height of that system. Mind you, Tekken 6 will own almost everything, but I can see the juggle-marathons in Rank Matches already. Khuntry could attest that I'm perfectly capable of juggling your ass to next Thursday. With Law I could launch you almost at will (not rubbing my own e-cock, just saying). What do I do? 3... 4 hit juggle tops. I'm not interested in more hits, just the fight. I want more fighting games to aspire to this model of combat. You don't even have to de-comboize Soul Calibur or Tekken either. I don't have to play that way in those games. But they certainly reward those who do, which is my point. |
Kalyx, I'm sure you're more interested in the fight. but the rest of the community? You really think so? And do you believe that the lion's share of Guitar Hero fans just play "for fun?" Perhaps you believe the world is flat and the Government faked the Moon landing just to show their high res, staged shots of a round planet?
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Number one, the Earth is flat. The curvature you see from high enough points is a light-based illusion. Secondly, we never landed on the moon. That video is a Hollywood production.
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Again, trying to act real passionate and emotionally invested against a paltry portion of the argument--not the main part of it, but the tiny snippet at the beginning that you completely misinterpted--is a fine way to debate badly. I guess it's hard to take what anyone says seriously when you can't fucking read though, right? Quote:
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Really, I think most of my argument could have been summed up by quoting Kalyx, and then posting
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How long have you been playing the Tekken series? Juggles got crazy by part 4. Don't say shit like "always" and "forever" and cover your ass by predicting somebody would jump on it. Calling it won't stop me or anyone from going the only logical route, that is to say you're wrong.
And how many games are combo heavy versus my model of combat? A fucking lot. And where's my evidence of combos dominating top level play? <object width="340" height="285"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tALn6qHfk6Y&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tALn6qHfk6Y&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="340" height="285"></embed></object><object width="340" height="285"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WVCzFpthpHs&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WVCzFpthpHs&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="340" height="285"></embed></object><object width="340" height="285"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2OYlRvXv6uw&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2OYlRvXv6uw&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="340" height="285"></embed></object><object width="340" height="285"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_G8OPsz6E_c&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_G8OPsz6E_c&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="340" height="285"></embed></object> Actually not so combo centric (3rd Strike), but how would it look having nothing but vids that prove my pint, right? <object width="340" height="285"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PUTWgAXjY0Y&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PUTWgAXjY0Y&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="340" height="285"></embed></object> |
Yeah, it's certainly "covering my ass" to point out that I'm not being literal. It's certainly not your fault for ignoring an entire section of the statement in favor of the juicy parts. Clarification? The rest of the argument? Why, the only relevant part of the argument is the one you can argue with, not the parts you can't! Pretend those aren't there! It's the only logical route, am I right? Just take out a tiny segment, throw it out of context, and congratulations! I mean, I even went so far as to tell you what my argument wasn't before you proceeded to plow on through the door.
Also, did you even fucking watch those videos, or do you just not understand what those guys are doing? Except for the Tekken vids--which were from the same tournament, if I'm not mistaken--the majority of those fights were won with fake outs, throws, and in the KoF case, tactical switchups. I mean, for a guy that can't take me seriously, you're awfully... I don't know... incapable of defending your stance. Oh, wait. Your stance is just you pissing and crying about shit everybody else got used to years ago. Sorry, I forgot how hard it is to defend driving the wrong way down a one way street. |
You know what, fuck it. I'm not feeding into your desperate plea for validation from your fellow neckbeards any further, and I really should have stopped pretending this was a legitimate subject for discussion instead of some half assed attempt at gamer blogging the second I realized you posted this exact topic over multiple forums. You can neither put up a solid argument without stumbling through a mine field of primitive fallacies, nor respond without throwing up a bunch of buzzwords and name drops as if being the cool kid at your particular table somehow makes your bullshit easier to choke down. See you guys after I get done doing something that's actually halfway entertaining.
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For example, not Tekken.
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Let's review for your sake:
But it looks like you're okay with the landscape (or am I being pretentious in saying so?). But the fact remains that in most fighting games, most fights are decided by combos. Mind games and set-ups are romantic and all, but dial-a-combos save the day. Forgive me for wanting more fighting games evolve past this. And no, Tekken 6 extending the life bar doesn't count. |
lol
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Just in case anyone thinks otherwise. |
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I :heart: Virtua Fighter
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NO
AM2 develops it or no sale. Don't want tiger heads and satan-incarnates flipping around in an otherwise awesome game (VF) :( |
Just because Virtua Fighter isn't as farfetched as tekken, doesn't mean it's so realistic that it would be ruined by a crossover featuring those types of characters.
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I didn't mean that, I just meant that I could see Namco completly bastardising the VF characters.
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Virtua fighter IS NOT realistic. Ugh ....virtua fighter
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Even if they do that, Namco knows the money is in Tekken vs Virtua Fighter. Not Ten vs Virtua Fighter characters with tekken makeovers.
They would have nothing to gain from changing the VF characters. |
They could swerve it and make a 3D MvC2 style game, just to piss everyone off :shifty:
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Thinking about Yu not being there, I do not have high hopes for VF6 either :(. God I wish Model 3 emulation was here, VF3TB on Dreamcast just isn't the same :'(
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I think Namco's smart enough to respect VF characters but have them play better than they did. VF with limb-based attacks would be interesting, though I wouldn't mind Tekken adopting the punch-kick-block model either. Namco would be doing SEGA a favor with this one.
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Hmmm, just found some special edition VF4 disc that has all the VF4 characters/moves but in the VF1 engine. I didn't know I owned that....
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I tried so hard to like VF but it comes off as floaty and boring. I would give VF5 a try and even buy if the chance came around, if only to build a fighting game library. DOA4's more fun to me.
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It's always been like that though, it's weird. Everyone can agree on what is a good fighting game (not always agree on whats the best) apart from VF and Tekken which just draws polar opposites.
I know what you mean though, I prfer DOA over Tekken. |
VF vs Tekken needs to happen. I think the teams should mix and match to design the game. But I'd love to see Namco's crossover engine in motion. What elements stayed and what left. His comments ruined my day, I've been thinking about it for a while.
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BCWWF
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