Combos: A Historic Evaluation

[Kalyx triaD]

Are fighting games too reliant on multi-hit combo systems? Before we go on, a little history is in order.

The idea of combos began as a bug in Street Fighter 2 (like many of it's common systems, actually). Essentially, the recovery of an attack is shorter than a target's hitstun, giving you a series of uninterrupted attacks. Along with an early form of buffering, combos became examples of top level play in the early fighter communities. Capcom allowed these bugs and embraced them in later versions of Street Fighter 2 (including the first Combo Counter appearing in Super 2). Combos were welcomed into fighting game development, and expanded to include juggles and dial-a-combo structures. Killer Instinct's entire engine focused on combos of (then) crazy length. Even 3D fighters came out embracing combos, with Virtua Fighter introducing preset strings of attacks that defined 3D fighters indefinitely.

So where did combos in fighters take us? Well it revealed that certain bastards aren't above discovering, and exploiting, infinites. It also separated the regulars from the timing experts of the fighting community. Just about every fighting game worth it's salt has a Combo Counter to let you know how many hits you landed after mashi- formulating your last attack package. It's just a normal facet of fighting games.

But is it required? And is it even an indicator of skill anymore?

I remember me and my buds getting better at Tekken 3 and Soul Calibur in the late 90s. We got good at our chosen characters and developed a kind of play that varied from what the general fighting community adopted. We had a tit-for-tat 'where will I attack' format where we took the Namco fighter's style of high/mid/low hit areas and made it a guessing game. We'd try to trick out each other with various stances and patterns of the characters. For all we knew that's how Namco intended.

Then we finally met up with other gamers outside of our own living rooms, some great players, and... exchanged philosophies. We learned that the Namco fighting game landscape was rife with combo strings and technical traps in both Tekken and Soul Calibur series. For a time we thought we were playing it wrong the whole time! Then we noticed that these players were not used to blocking low. A small detail that evened up the landscape just a bit. We were mystified at how clueless they were regarding rather simplistic attack patterns that weren't dependent on long juggles and tech traps. Still, their style was superior and we needed to play to win. We adopted this style of into our own and became better for it. We never really did abandon our philosophy, however.

I bring this up because I've noticed Soul Calibur and Tekken crept slowly toward being combo-centric games. For me this was an acceptable yet annoying change of climate. I looked at Tekken videos showcasing ridiculous strings of juggles that just didn't speak to me a fight - but a game of launchers to get your opponent on some inescapable intake of damage. I imagine Tekken 6 will still allow our kind of gameplay, but new videos confirm even more reliance on juggles. Soul Calibur 4 features a Combo Counter, a first for the series. Street Fighter 4 features a rather open combo system, with Sakura loving every moment of it.

You know what I see when I watch these so-called 'tournament videos'? Endless strings of combos and jockeying for opportunities for more combos. I mean this is great for something like 3rd Strike, where big combos are limited to training mode set-ups and you need to think on your feet. Killer Instinct of course is a concept fighter for combos. But I'm not impressed with 10+ hit strings in Tekken and impossible juggles in Soul Calibur. To me that does not present a fight, but a contest of dialing in buttons without fear of reprisal. I had silent disagreements with this convention for years, keeping it in until now.

I think new fighting games should lessen the need for combos and increase other forms of offensive strategy.

Now this isn't me whining about bringing fighting games to adjust to our methods, oh no, that's not my intention. I like a good combo, I just don't like a game being defined by it's combos. Khuntry and some others can attest that I am an agent of gameplay balance and competitive structure. I personally believe both opponents of similar skill should have nothing but their own minds and characters in a fair engine that did not bow to a specific player's style. In short, a character for a player's style is fine, but not an entire gameplay engine. And most of these engines are combo-centric.

So how do you guys feel about combos and how fighting games use them? Do you think they should flourish or succumb to more open systems that celebrates a broader range of player's styles?

[#BROKEN Hasney]

C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Are fighting games too reliant on multi-hit combo systems? Before we go on, a little history is in order. The idea of combos began as a bug in Street Fighter 2 (like many of it's common systems, actually). Essentially, the recovery of an attack is shorter than a target's hitstun, giving you a series of uninterrupted attacks. Along with an early form of buffering, combos became examples of top level play in the early fighter communities. Capcom allowed these bugs and embraced them in later versions of Street Fighter 2 (including the first Combo Counter appearing in Super 2). Combos were welcomed into fighting game development, and expanded to include juggles and dial-a-combo structures. Killer Instinct's entire engine focused on combos of (then) crazy length. Even 3D fighters came out embracing combos, with Virtua Fighter introducing preset strings of attacks that defined 3D fighters indefinitely. So where did combos in fighters take us? Well it revealed that certain bastards aren't above discovering, and exploiting, infinites. It also separated the regulars from the timing experts of the fighting community. Just about every fighting game worth it's salt has a Combo Counter to let you know how many hits you landed after mashi- formulating your last attack package. It's just a normal facet of fighting games. But is it required? And is it even an indicator of skill anymore? I remember me and my buds getting better at Tekken 3 and Soul Calibur in the late 90s. We got good at our chosen characters and developed a kind of play that varied from what the general fighting community adopted. We had a tit-for-tat 'where will I attack' format where we took the Namco fighter's style of high/mid/low hit areas and made it a guessing game. We'd try to trick out each other with various stances and patterns of the characters. For all we knew that's how Namco intended. Then we finally met up with other gamers outside of our own living rooms, some great players, and... exchanged philosophies. We learned that the Namco fighting game landscape was rife with combo strings and technical traps in both Tekken and Soul Calibur series. For a time we thought we were playing it wrong the whole time! Then we noticed that these players were not used to blocking low. A small detail that evened up the landscape just a bit. We were mystified at how clueless they were regarding rather simplistic attack patterns that weren't dependent on long juggles and tech traps. Still, their style was superior and we needed to play to win. We adopted this style of into our own and became better for it. We never really did abandon our philosophy, however. I bring this up because I've noticed Soul Calibur and Tekken crept slowly toward being combo-centric games. For me this was an acceptable yet annoying change of climate. I looked at Tekken videos showcasing ridiculous strings of juggles that just didn't speak to me a fight - but a game of launchers to get your opponent on some inescapable intake of damage. I imagine Tekken 6 will still allow our kind of gameplay, but new videos confirm even more reliance on juggles. Soul Calibur 4 features a Combo Counter, a first for the series. Street Fighter 4 features a rather open combo system, with Sakura loving every moment of it. You know what I see when I watch these so-called 'tournament videos'? Endless strings of combos and jockeying for opportunities for more combos. I mean this is great for something like 3rd Strike, where big combos are limited to training mode set-ups and you need to think on your feet. Killer Instinct of course is a concept fighter for combos. But I'm not impressed with 10+ hit strings in Tekken and impossible juggles in Soul Calibur. To me that does not present a fight, but a contest of dialing in buttons without fear of reprisal. I had silent disagreements with this convention for years, keeping it in until now. I think new fighting games should lessen the need for combos and increase other forms of offensive strategy. Now this isn't me whining about bringing fighting games to adjust to our methods, oh no, that's not my intention. I like a good combo, I just don't like a game being defined by it's combos. Khuntry and some others can attest that I am an agent of gameplay balance and competitive structure. I personally believe both opponents of similar skill should have nothing but their own minds and characters in a fair engine that did not bow to a specific player's style. In short, a character for a player's style is fine, but not an entire gameplay engine. And most of these engines are combo-centric. So how do you guys feel about combos and how fighting games use them? Do you think they should flourish or succumb to more open systems that celebrates a broader range of player's styles?

Gay.

[G]

I think you should stick with the haduken forums for your video game discussions. That is ridiculous.

[Khuntry]

Originally Posted by G I think you should stick with the haduken forums for your video game discussions. That is ridiculous.

*sigh*

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by Khuntry *sigh*

Yeah, this is what I dealt with for a time (but G's cool, though - don't get me wrong). Then I evolved into the only guy who even writes shit like this. How many forums have fuckin articles? Some people dig it, and when Funky (complained/commented?) that threads like this seemed like aimless magazine articles, I figure I was on the right track.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Yeah, this is what I dealt with for a time (but G's cool, though - don't get me wrong). Then I evolved into the only guy who even writes shit like this. How many forums have fuckin articles? Some people dig it, and when Funky (complained/commented?) that threads like this seemed like aimless magazine articles, I figure I was on the right track.

If slashfic and articles on the history of combos is the right track, I want to see this train derailed like AMTRACK.

[Fignuts]

Knew this was a kalyx thread as soon as I saw the title.

[Kalyx triaD]

lol

[My Final Heaven]

[Kane Knight]

Mmmm...Salsa.

[Taft]

I'm just going to say.

That I agree with you.

And I read the whole thing..


that makes me gay, apparently.


Who new discussing video games in a video game discussion forum was a homosexual act?

[Super V]

I don't think he's gay. He is definitely a virgin though.

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by Scotty Ranger I'm just going to say. That I agree with you. And I read the whole thing.. that makes me gay, apparently. Who new discussing video games in a video game discussion forum was a homosexual act?

We're in the dark, I guess.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Originally Posted by Scotty Ranger I'm just going to say. That I agree with you. And I read the whole thing.. that makes me gay, apparently. Who new discussing video games in a video game discussion forum was a homosexual act?

Now you know.

[Ogen]

Kalyx 100% wanks off over cartoons.

[Kalyx triaD]

Not 100 percent.

[Kalyx triaD]

This message is hidden because Super V is on your ignore list.

[Super V]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD This message is hidden because Super V is on your ignore list

I was defending you.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

What type of magazine? Gaylord Monthly?

[Kalyx triaD]

Yes... Gaylord Monthly.

[G]

I want a subscription.

[Taft]

I want two.

[Fignuts]

Super V.

Come on dude. Think about this one for a sec.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Don't worry, I will relay the message to Kalyx for Super V.

Originally Posted by Super V Quote: Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Quote: I want to castrate you and feed your balls to my first born.

WOAH, pretty strong stuff.

[Kalyx triaD]

So I'm missing out on some compelling posts, huh?

[Kalyx triaD]

This train's heading to Vegas, baby.

[Khuntry]

Wow tough crowd.

[.44 Magdalene]

I'm a massive fucking fighting game nerd and even I find your opinions to be boring and specifically rung off on subjects that wouldn't be entertaining anyhow.

Also, my friend was bitching last week about how SFIV doesn't have a good combo system. Not that it doesn't, he was just being a dumbass. Just saying, two sides of the coin and whatnot.

Plus, Tekken and SC have always been combo centric. That's part of why I don't like them, don't play them, and don't act like they're somehow telling of the rest of the fighting game industry. Cheers.

[Khuntry]

Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene Plus, Tekken and SC have always been combo centric. .

Are you Serious ?...

[.44 Magdalene]

Originally Posted by Khuntry Are you Serious ?...

About which? Soul Calibur's been combo heavy for a while and they had 10 stringers in original Tekken.

[Khuntry]

Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene About which? Soul Calibur's been combo heavy for a while and they had 10 stringers in original Tekken.

I didnt think Soul calibur (DC) was combo heavyat all.

[.44 Magdalene]

Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene About which? Soul Calibur's been combo heavy for a while

But I'm sure my "has always been" is going to be taken as literal as humanly possible, also; that is, it was combo heavy since the beginning of tiiime.

Series had juggles as early as II, though. Edge and Calibur's combo status are debatable, but when two through four have serious combo mechanics, you can't act like you've never seen this shit before. And again, Tekken. Don't play it up like this is some shocking phenomenon that only recently swept the gaming industry.

[.44 Magdalene]

Really, I think most of my argument could have been summed up by quoting Kalyx, and then posting

Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene But I'm sure my "has always been" is going to be taken as literal as humanly possible

[.44 Magdalene]

And also, like I said, alot of fighters don't rely on dial-a-combos. It's a certain sect of (mostly) 3D fighters. Basically, some fighters are combo heavy--some aren't. Bitching about games being combo heavy when they're not all that way is basically just bitching about the few that are like that being the way they are.

They're combo heavy games. They're made that way. On purpose. Don't want dial-a-combos? Play a different game. It's not a flaw and it's not a problem. It's personal taste. I don't like fighting games like that, so--gasp--I play other fighters instead.

[.44 Magdalene]

And even further than that, half these YouTube dial-a-combos don't actually work in-game. All it takes is one little upset to fuck your 45 Hit Kilik masterpiece up. Online exhibitions are mostly just that--it's like, y'know, the videogame equivalent of Capoeira or Drunken Master. It's totally sweet to watch, but nobody ever wins fights with that shit.

But I think Kalyx already got a similar response when he posted this exact, identical thread, verbatim, full copypasta mode on the Shoryuken forums.

[Fignuts]

I think tekken and SC are more combo heavy with casual players, but at tournament level, it's more about poking, and strategy.

Dunno for sure, but thats what I would guess.

[Super V]

Tekken has no choice but to be combo-oriented though to be honest. There are very few "special" moves in it.

[Kalyx triaD]

Soul Calibur, as a series, was NEVER as combo heavy as it is now. I can barely take you serious after reading that sort of comment. NEVER EVER. I can't even begin to argue that without a gay use of CAPS. Where did you get that from? Wow. Edge and Calibur are NOT debatable, they just did not play toward combos. They had combos, but were not combo centric.

Ya know how many tourny matches I can pull up right now at this minute that showcases in-match combos FTW? Look up 3rd Strike + Tourny and watch the Combo Counter rise as people use it in real contest. I know the vids you're talking about with people setting up combos so they can masturbate to their dialing skills but you can't actually believe I'd cite those as supporting evidence to my argument? I would all of a sudden not know the difference? We're both game geeks (pfft, any of us in here), in this subject I know what I'm talking about. You? You said Soul Calibur was combo centric. Hard to pass that road sign.

And Figgy's right to a degree. The thing is all those pokes and positioning are for landing some way to combo off some damage. You might think in that sense it was earned, and you are correct depending on the game. But Tekken should not have went down that route. Preset attack strings and limited juggles should have been the height of that system. Mind you, Tekken 6 will own almost everything, but I can see the juggle-marathons in Rank Matches already.

Khuntry could attest that I'm perfectly capable of juggling your ass to next Thursday. With Law I could launch you almost at will (not rubbing my own e-cock, just saying). What do I do? 3... 4 hit juggle tops. I'm not interested in more hits, just the fight. I want more fighting games to aspire to this model of combat. You don't even have to de-comboize Soul Calibur or Tekken either. I don't have to play that way in those games. But they certainly reward those who do, which is my point.

[.44 Magdalene]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Soul Calibur, as a series, was NEVER as combo heavy as it is now. I can barely take you serious after reading that sort of comment. NEVER EVER. I can't even begin to argue that without a gay use of CAPS. Where did you get that from? Wow. Edge and Calibur are NOT debatable, they just did not play toward combos. They had combos, but were not combo centric.

See, you can tell when someone's an amateur at debate when they use tactics like this--instead of going after the meat of my argument, which was that SCII and onward were distinctly combo heavy, you attacked the part where I conceded original Calibur and Edge were the least combo intended. Can't take me seriously after you totally flipped my argument upside down and acted like I was saying something entirely different, right? No, Calibur and Edge weren't combo heavy. I agreed, you fucking moron. Calibur II brought in juggles, and it was a slippery slope from there--which is the main point of what I said, and you totally blew that off in favor of making up something easier to argue with. Most SC games--that is, two through four--are combo heavy. i.e., this isn't anything new.

Again, trying to act real passionate and emotionally invested against a paltry portion of the argument--not the main part of it, but the tiny snippet at the beginning that you completely misinterpted--is a fine way to debate badly. I guess it's hard to take what anyone says seriously when you can't fucking read though, right?

Ya know how many tourny matches I can pull up right now at this minute that showcases in-match combos FTW? Look up 3rd Strike + Tourny and watch the Combo Counter rise as people use it in real contest. I know the vids you're talking about with people setting up combos so they can masturbate to their dialing skills but you can't actually believe I'd cite those as supporting evidence to my argument? I would all of a sudden not know the difference? We're both game geeks (pfft, any of us in here), in this subject I know what I'm talking about.

You'll also see pokes, throws, and alot of heavy mind games in any good 3rd strike video. Oh, and parries. God damn, legendary parries. Why would I believe you'd cite any evidence to your argument when you didn't, though? The only games you've mentioned are Tekken--which is combo centric to an infamous degree--Soul Calibur, where combos get cut off at a certain point unless you suck at the game--and 3rd Strike, which is actually pretty throw-and-parry heavy at tournament levels, at least more to that degree than combo centric. I mean, what evidence are you actually citing at all? What fucking evidence are you even talking about? You're getting all pissed about people mocking your imaginary evidence? I mean, in retrospect, your entire argument is getting mad about SC not playing like you want it to, without any real leg to stand on, reasoning or logic. It's just a bunch of "WELL I DON'T REMEMBER IT BEING LIKE THAT."

You? You said Soul Calibur was combo centric. Hard to pass that road sign.

Oh lol but I didn't. I said specifically that two through four were combo centric, buuut... why read that part, when you can just make your own shit up to argue with? It's so much easier to imagine the other guy is just spouting jibberish instead of, y'know, making the point that he's making.

And Figgy's right to a degree. The thing is all those pokes and positioning are for landing some way to combo off some damage. You might think in that sense it was earned, and you are correct depending on the game. But Tekken should not have went down that route. Preset attack strings and limited juggles should have been the height of that system. Mind you, Tekken 6 will own almost everything, but I can see the juggle-marathons in Rank Matches already.

Tekken. Has been like that. Forever. That's how Tekken is. That's what Tekken's like. You're basically bitching that Mario Bros has so many fucking jumps in it, or that Zelda is getting too puzzle heavy.

Khuntry could attest that I'm perfectly capable of juggling your ass to next Thursday. With Law I could launch you almost at will (not rubbing my own e-cock, just saying). What do I do? 3... 4 hit juggle tops. I'm not interested in more hits, just the fight. I want more fighting games to aspire to this model of combat. You don't even have to de-comboize Soul Calibur or Tekken either. I don't have to play that way in those games. But they certainly reward those who do, which is my point.

Other fighting games do aspire to this model of combat, you're bitching about the maybe two game series that are specifically combo based being combo based. Again, you're bitching that Game A uses Game A mechanics instead of Game B mechanics. Waaah, all I want is for Mario Kart to rely less on racing. Play a different fucking game, then. Not alot of other people have the problem you do because they're playing the game they want to play, not pissing and moaning that the game they play isn't the game they want to play.