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Old 11-17-2015, 10:56 PM   #1
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The thread where we get CyNick to defend maligned storylines, and tell us how we don't understand...
... the actual genius of them.

I will get the ball rolling.

CyNick, knower of all things booking decisions... what was the benefit of murderfucking Booker T's push in 2003 by having HHH not only tell him he was a nappy haired loser who didn't deserver the title, but then beat him clean in the middle of the ring after waiting 45 seconds to pin him post pedigree?

I need to know the long term benefits and Vince's mindset, and why this was CLEARLY the right move.

Team Toxic 4 lyfe
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:58 PM   #2
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Careful or he'll start spewing WWE's financial numbers for 2015 at you.
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:59 PM   #3
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Feel free to hypothesize what our good friend the "CyNick" may profess as the reason for this obviously brilliant piece of booking.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:01 PM   #4
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Because Booker T didn't deserve the title. Certainly not over Triple H.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:25 PM   #5
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Yeah basically what Lock Jaw said.

I'm trying to remember the timeline, but I believe HHH and HBK traded the big gold belt in late 2002 after HHH was handed the title. The thinking was probably we need to establish this championship, and HHH was just hitting his prime as a main eventer around this time. The long term money match in 2003 was with Goldberg, and I believe when the time was right, they put the strap on Goldberg. Had they had HHH lose all the time prior to that feud, it wouldn't have meant as much. And dont people on here hate when heel champs lose like crazy?

That said, I wasn't a fan of some of the language used in the program with Booker. Similar to how I said I wasn't a fan of the use of Charlotte's brothers' death in the Paige-Charlotte build. I really wish WWE would take the high road as much as possible in their angles in order to not alienate any would be viewers. Obviously whats done is done in the past, but going forward I wish they would keep it classy.

Back to Booker getting beat soundly, I have absolutely no problem with that. Booker is a nice hand, but he was only ever world champion because of a lack of depth and lawsuits. He's a classic B+ player. But not in the sense that WWE wrote TV about Daniel Bryan being a B+ player, and pushed him like an A+ player, Booker was actually a B+.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:22 PM   #6
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and totally deserved to have ALL of his credibility destroyed, and seem like not a threat at all.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:31 PM   #7
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Beating him clean is one thing, waiting the entire duration of wrestlemania to pin him is killing him. You need to keep your b plus players credible.

There's nothing wrong with keeping HHH strong, but if you're going to spend the entire angle burying Booker, he needs to shine in the end. If you spend the angle making booker look strong THEN have H go over either sneakily or with a Pedigree and an IMMEDIATE pin then Booker doesn't come out looking as bad, and you have a strong B plus player that can step in at any time, as opposed to a guy who can never fully regain his momentum.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Beating him clean is one thing, waiting the entire duration of wrestlemania to pin him is killing him. You need to keep your b plus players credible.

There's nothing wrong with keeping HHH strong, but if you're going to spend the entire angle burying Booker, he needs to shine in the end. If you spend the angle making booker look strong THEN have H go over either sneakily or with a Pedigree and an IMMEDIATE pin then Booker doesn't come out looking as bad, and you have a strong B plus player that can step in at any time, as opposed to a guy who can never fully regain his momentum.
Classic HHH hate for no reason.

Classic overrating an above average talent.

Do you know why they took so long to get to the pin? Did you get one of your hero "reporters" to ask Vince McMahon why that decision was made? Was it to build anticipation for a kick out? Was it to further cement HHH because he was the top guy? Was HHH just trying to bury him? If HHH did try to bury him, did Vince have a chat with HHH afterwards? Oh I know, lets just speculate that HHH is the devil, read all about it in next week's issue...unless of course plans change!!!

Its funny, I was at MSG when HHH put over Chris Benoit clean in the middle. You know the guy all your heroes said was referred to as the Vanilla Midget? Yeah that guy. HHH put him over multiple times clean as a sheet. He put over Goldberg. He put over Batista. He put over Cena. He put over Bryan. He put over The Shield. But he's the devil.

Seriously, you guys are butt hurt about BOOKER T. It shows how terrible some of you are at evaluating talent that you hold onto that program with a death grip, as though Booker T was going to mean anything for business long term. Its fantastic.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Classic HHH hate for no reason.

Classic overrating an above average talent.

Do you know why they took so long to get to the pin? Did you get one of your hero "reporters" to ask Vince McMahon why that decision was made? Was it to build anticipation for a kick out? Was it to further cement HHH because he was the top guy? Was HHH just trying to bury him? If HHH did try to bury him, did Vince have a chat with HHH afterwards? Oh I know, lets just speculate that HHH is the devil, read all about it in next week's issue...unless of course plans change!!!

Its funny, I was at MSG when HHH put over Chris Benoit clean in the middle. You know the guy all your heroes said was referred to as the Vanilla Midget? Yeah that guy. HHH put him over multiple times clean as a sheet. He put over Goldberg. He put over Batista. He put over Cena. He put over Bryan. He put over The Shield. But he's the devil.

Seriously, you guys are butt hurt about BOOKER T. It shows how terrible some of you are at evaluating talent that you hold onto that program with a death grip, as though Booker T was going to mean anything for business long term. Its fantastic.
Wow you're accusing me a lot of things I didn't say in my post. Sounds like you have a lot of pent up issues man.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Seriously, you guys are butt hurt about BOOKER T. It shows how terrible some of you are at evaluating talent that you hold onto that program with a death grip, as though Booker T was going to mean anything for business long term. Its fantastic.
The mans a Hall of Famer and runs his own promotion but he means nothing to the business long term.

Quote:
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Booker is a nice hand
Couldn't take anything else serious after he called Booker a good hand.
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:16 AM   #11
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The mans a Hall of Famer and runs his own promotion but he means nothing to the business long term.
A promotion with ROLLERMACKA no less, which is a pretty significant contribution to these forums.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:15 PM   #12
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The mans a Hall of Famer and runs his own promotion but he means nothing to the business long term.



Couldn't take anything else serious after he called Booker a good hand.
Isnt KoKo B Ware a Hall of Famer?

How would you describe him?
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:33 PM   #13
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The stalling before pinning Booker was fucking ludicrous. Whenever somebody waits that long to execute a pin, it should end in a kickout. He may as well have read War and Peace before fucking pinning him.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:35 PM   #14
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Vito, you choose next bad booking decision! I PASS IT OFF TO YOU OLD FRIEND
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Vito, you choose next bad booking decision! I PASS IT OFF TO YOU OLD FRIEND
How about Hornswoggle being Vince's illegitimate son? Everybody knows it was supposed to be Mr. Kennedy, but he had to fall on his sword and take a suspension for the steroid bust. We get that.

But what possible value could have come from simply punting the angle and using such a main story for months of comedy relief instead of, you know, actually trying to find a way to salvage the angle in a way that it wouldn't have felt like a complete and utter waste of time?
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
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How about Hornswoggle being Vince's illegitimate son? Everybody knows it was supposed to be Mr. Kennedy, but he had to fall on his sword and take a suspension for the steroid bust. We get that.

But what possible value could have come from simply punting the angle and using such a main story for months of comedy relief instead of, you know, actually trying to find a way to salvage the angle in a way that it wouldn't have felt like a complete and utter waste of time?
Potentially great storyline ruined by a talent. Hornswaggle involvement was retarded. Whatever long term plans they had for Kennedy were ruined, so no point of just pointing to someone randomly and go "okay MVP you're going to be Vince's son"

Reminds me of the Bella storyline, where the talent fucked it up, so they just went okay this is screwed up, and basically tried to pretend it didnt happen.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:36 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Potentially great storyline ruined by a talent. Hornswaggle involvement was retarded. Whatever long term plans they had for Kennedy were ruined, so no point of just pointing to someone randomly and go "okay MVP you're going to be Vince's son"

Reminds me of the Bella storyline, where the talent fucked it up, so they just went okay this is screwed up, and basically tried to pretend it didnt happen.
The problem is when you invest that much time in an angle and then completely gloss over it, it gives the impression that WWE feels its fan base has the attention span of a peanut.

Could they really not identify anybody else who could have been Vince's son and gotten whatever push Kennedy was going to receive? It's never totally come to light what would have happened in the angle but I doubt it would have been something only Kennedy could pull off. At least giving the spot to someone else and trying to make something of it might have ended up with someone getting over rather than just tossing the whole thing away.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:46 PM   #18
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I was going to want him to explain away Punk returning so soon after MITB 2011 and them doing a WWE title tourney for no reason not to mention him jobbing to Triple H...but I know he'd just point to the 14 month title reign and say "see???"
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
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I was going to want him to explain away Punk returning so soon after MITB 2011 and them doing a WWE title tourney for no reason not to mention him jobbing to Triple H...but I know he'd just point to the 14 month title reign and say "see???"
Do you mean why create the 2nd belt if Punk is going to be back soon anyway?
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:32 AM   #20
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Do you mean why create the 2nd belt if Punk is going to be back soon anyway?
Yeah you can take it that way. Why not build tension of there being no champion?

And regardless of when he returned, if they had some grand master plan of giving Punk a massively long reign (they probably didn't) why not just have him keep it from MITB 2011 until he lost it? What point did it serve to have Del Rio and Cena play hot potato with the belt? It did pretty much nothing for Del Rio after a year about him talking about his "destiny".
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
Yeah you can take it that way. Why not build tension of there being no champion?

And regardless of when he returned, if they had some grand master plan of giving Punk a massively long reign (they probably didn't) why not just have him keep it from MITB 2011 until he lost it? What point did it serve to have Del Rio and Cena play hot potato with the belt? It did pretty much nothing for Del Rio after a year about him talking about his "destiny".
The whole idea behind the angle was to have Punk run around with the real belt. I dont know if that got them what they were looking for in terms of publicity. At the end of the day, Punk ended up going over Cena multiple times and then got a massive run with the title.

Another case of I'm not sure what more could be done to help Punk there.
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Old 11-17-2015, 11:54 PM   #22
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They let it go because his name originally was Little Bastard. So, they could said it was all designed from the start if they wanted to. Bullshit though.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:04 AM   #23
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Don't remember the match or the long wait for the pin, or really any of the program/storyline/feud, so that may be clouding my judgement on the matter.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:07 AM   #24
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in retrospect putting HHH over is fine... it's just the manner in which they did it is the problem. It mad H very uninteresting. What made Ric Flair such a great heel champion was that he made everyone look great when beating them.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:14 PM   #25
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in retrospect putting HHH over is fine... it's just the manner in which they did it is the problem. It mad H very uninteresting. What made Ric Flair such a great heel champion was that he made everyone look great when beating them.
They were completely different characters though. Flair looked like a normal dude off the street, HHH was/is built like a beast. Not everyone should be booked like Ric Flair was.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:49 PM   #26
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They were completely different characters though. Flair looked like a normal dude off the street, HHH was/is built like a beast. Not everyone should be booked like Ric Flair was.
that is just terrible logic.
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:10 AM   #27
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:42 AM   #28
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The whole HHH reign of terror reeks of him finding excuses to constantly hold off him losing because the next big reason is the right one.

Should lose to RVD? No, wait, we'll lose to Kane. Nope, wait, we'll lose it to Shawn to get it back to me, then I'll lose it on the big show to the new star, Booker. Nope, we've got Goldberg now, it'll mean more to lose to him. But lets do this Nash feud first. Okay, lets do the Goldberg thing. But I should win the Chamber first, THEN lose, because there will be more heat. Then I get it back to put over Benoit at Mania. Orton beats Benoit, HHH immediately kills Orton, and in a fluke mulligan, at last, after four years, loses to Batista, and finally the shit cycle is broken.




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Old 11-18-2015, 08:18 PM   #29
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The whole HHH reign of terror reeks of him finding excuses to constantly hold off him losing because the next big reason is the right one.

Should lose to RVD? No, wait, we'll lose to Kane. Nope, wait, we'll lose it to Shawn to get it back to me, then I'll lose it on the big show to the new star, Booker. Nope, we've got Goldberg now, it'll mean more to lose to him. But lets do this Nash feud first. Okay, lets do the Goldberg thing. But I should win the Chamber first, THEN lose, because there will be more heat. Then I get it back to put over Benoit at Mania. Orton beats Benoit, HHH immediately kills Orton, and in a fluke mulligan, at last, after four years, loses to Batista, and finally the shit cycle is broken.
Are you saying he should have lost to Booker T, RVD, Kane, and Goldberg?

At the end of the day he put over Goldberg for the title. He got it back because Goldberg was a part time guy, and WWE wanted someone full time to carry the belt. Then he put over Benoit clean (multiple times). Yes, he got it back because Benoit was a flop as a headliner. He then singlehandedly made Batista a superstar. He then put over Cena the following year.

I'm curious what more you felt he should have done.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:35 PM   #30
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Are you saying he should have lost to Booker T, RVD, Kane, and Goldberg?

At the end of the day he put over Goldberg for the title. He got it back because Goldberg was a part time guy, and WWE wanted someone full time to carry the belt. Then he put over Benoit clean (multiple times). Yes, he got it back because Benoit was a flop as a headliner. He then singlehandedly made Batista a superstar. He then put over Cena the following year.

I'm curious what more you felt he should have done.
Listen to his podcast. It's a bunch of dudes who actually know what they are talking about. And actually read what he says and don't put words into his mouth.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:35 PM   #31
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Listen to his podcast. It's a bunch of dudes who actually know what they are talking about. And actually read what he says and don't put words into his mouth.
I read it, I read everything. It was the same old same old I read somewhere else at the time in 4 point font. Completely unoriginal thoughts.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:05 AM   #32
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Are you saying he should have lost to Booker T, RVD, Kane, and Goldberg?

At the end of the day he put over Goldberg for the title. He got it back because Goldberg was a part time guy, and WWE wanted someone full time to carry the belt. Then he put over Benoit clean (multiple times). Yes, he got it back because Benoit was a flop as a headliner. He then singlehandedly made Batista a superstar. He then put over Cena the following year.

I'm curious what more you felt he should have done.
No, I'm not saying he should have lost to all of them by any means. I'm saying that he got out of losing when he was planned to lose to all of them, and in the end nobody was elevated of those four because the Goldberg loss came too late, he feuded with HHH the entire time he was champion, and HHH walked away with the belt. Again, the numbers fell during this whole period of time, and Raw needed a new focus, and Triple H wasn't the answer.

And the "they aren't good enough" argument is dead as soon as you say he singlehandedly made Batista, because that is completely correct, he just chose not to do it for those other guys, all of whom had more going for them at the point the feud started than Batista did.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:24 AM   #33
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No, I'm not saying he should have lost to all of them by any means. I'm saying that he got out of losing when he was planned to lose to all of them, and in the end nobody was elevated of those four because the Goldberg loss came too late, he feuded with HHH the entire time he was champion, and HHH walked away with the belt. Again, the numbers fell during this whole period of time, and Raw needed a new focus, and Triple H wasn't the answer.

And the "they aren't good enough" argument is dead as soon as you say he singlehandedly made Batista, because that is completely correct, he just chose not to do it for those other guys, all of whom had more going for them at the point the feud started than Batista did.
Beautiful post.

I wasn't even a massive Goldberg mark, but my interest in RAW dropped to 0 when Triple H walked out of the Chamber champion. Almost as egregious as the Booker T fiasco. I was surprised to see it come up as often as it did in your "jumping the shark" podcast recently, although it makes total sense.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:55 PM   #34
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Beautiful post.

I wasn't even a massive Goldberg mark, but my interest in RAW dropped to 0 when Triple H walked out of the Chamber champion. Almost as egregious as the Booker T fiasco. I was surprised to see it come up as often as it did in your "jumping the shark" podcast recently, although it makes total sense.
I wouldn't put it as a "jumping the shark" moment since it definitely wasn't the definitive moment when shit went downhill. It was pretty bad though.

Goldberg's presence/"aura" was really all he had going for him. WCW built it up properly, made him a star and put the title on him.

WWE finally had Goldberg to for their own... and decided to kill his aura AND THEN put the title on him. What?
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:51 AM   #35
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No, I'm not saying he should have lost to all of them by any means. I'm saying that he got out of losing when he was planned to lose to all of them, and in the end nobody was elevated of those four because the Goldberg loss came too late, he feuded with HHH the entire time he was champion, and HHH walked away with the belt. Again, the numbers fell during this whole period of time, and Raw needed a new focus, and Triple H wasn't the answer.

And the "they aren't good enough" argument is dead as soon as you say he singlehandedly made Batista, because that is completely correct, he just chose not to do it for those other guys, all of whom had more going for them at the point the feud started than Batista did.
I'm trying to remember the details, but I don't recall HHH winning a final one on one match with Goldberg. Could be wrong though.

Regardless, Goldberg was never committed to the business, so the fact that Hunter put him over at all shows Hunter was a team player. In the end he put over guys who the company thought would be long term stars (Benoit, Batista, Cena, even Bryan).
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:21 AM   #36
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Well, Triple H definitely shouldn't have lost it to any of those guys. Also hb2k, you've pretty much stated in clear writing why Triple H's reign should have gone on so long, and defended him, while trying to argue against his reign. Odd post.

RVD - Nowhere near Triple H's level
Kane - Solid hand, didn't need to win the title
HBK - He did win it, and wasn't that one of the best feuds ever? You know, with Triple H?
Booker T - Not on Triple H's level
Nash - Obvious feud to throw in due to their history. Credible threat, didn't need to win the title at that point in his career.
Goldberg - A legit big name. And Triple H drops the belt to him.
Benoit - Not on Triple H's level, still put him over
Orton - Not ready to be on Triple H's level at that point, still put him over early on in the feud
Batista - Ready for a big push, Triple H put him over.
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:47 AM   #37
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Steiner: HUH? HUH? HUH?
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:55 AM   #38
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Steiner: HUH? HUH? HUH?
"Errybody knows, wants to know, you don't know me? You don't know me?"
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Old 11-20-2015, 08:13 AM   #39
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:49 AM   #40
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Triple H's reign was NOT to make Triple H look strong. Triple H's long reign was to validate the newly minted World Heavyweight Title. It had no title history as it was a brand new title that looked like the WCW Title. It needed credibility and Triple H had that in abundance.
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