this years wrestlemania is MAKE IT OR BREAK IT for the WWE

[Kane Knight]

PEople will always attribute the success or failure of a show to the champion, since he's supposed to be the main draw.

[PureHatred]

Un-fricking-believable.

[Kane Knight]

Wouldn't it be awesome though? To see Mania break WWE? I mean, bad apples are already destroying it from the inside...

[Kalyx triaD]

When's SmackDowm! gonna become ECW!? Or was it WCW..? When is DX coming back?!? Is Eddie gonna run in on WM's main event? In favor of Orton?!?

I want reliable answers that will ruin the show for me, despite wanting to know so bad!!!

Funny you keep mentioning him in the same breath as Stone Cold. Your whole "theory" about Cena and the basis of this thread is that WWE needs to make him more invincible. You want him to go on a "Goldberg" like streak. You claim that people don't like Cena because he seems weak after losing to Edge. You claim that if he loses, WWE will start to fall from the top. The HUGE flaw in your logic involves Stone Cold. He managed to get total fan approval and turned face BY LOSING to Bret Hart at Mania 13. Thus this makes your theory total bullshit.

Just because it worked for one guy doesn't mean it will work for another. Yes losing can make a guy into a big face like with Stone Cold, however, it can also make a guy not hold his ground as a face. It depends on their characters and it fit Stone Cold but doesn't fit Cena or Goldberg (no wonder WWE ruined him and he wasnm't as over).

Listen, did you watch SNME? Your theory on peer pressure goes out the window with the simple fact that people that boo Cena DO IT SIMULTANIOUSLY! It's not a slow, peer pressure inducing boo that builds up strenght like fans starting "the wave." One of the biggest face pops of the night was HHH giving Cena the Pedigree. Those aren't "troublemakers", those are fans that genuinly don't like Cena. Accept it and quit making excuses.

Yes now they are doing it automatically because they are used to doing it as a cool thing and because they watched it from home.

People HAVE stopped watching. This has been pointed out intelligently to you by numerous posters. Ratings are way down from what they used to be. But again, you discard ALL OF OUR OPINIONS and facts. You think it's "best" right now because you're a Cena Mark. No change is needed? That's not what you said in your original post when you created this thread. Make up your fucking mind!

I didn't say there needed to be a big change in my original post. I said that WWE needs to watch what they are doing because doing the wrong thing at Mania can lead to trouble later on. I looked at some areas where WWE may do wrong.

Again, another bullshit excuse to avoid admitting you were wrong. If that's the case, then you've made alot of "typo's" throughout this entire thread.

I wasn't wrong. I made a typo. The rest of my post suggests the same thing that I am saying now, so if I didn't make a type, wouldn't I write something else there in the rest of the post ? But of course you guys just love to pick on typos anything to avoid the FACTS.

Are you psychic?

Not psychic, I just know people's psychology. Sex sells. Proven FACT.

FACE IT, your argument is not valid to anyone but you. Again, you're arguing against DOCUMENTED FACTS on a DVD regarding this subject!! These are actual WWE employees (including Vince) and former WCW employees telling what exactly happened.

I'm not arguing against the DVD. The DVD didn't say "The WWE had absolutely nothing to do with wCw going out of business". That's what I said. And former wCw employees are going to be biased because they want to be viewed as good workers. I would need to watch the DVD to give you a more concise reasoning on the fans idea, however, even if they did not mention it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. They may have just not mentioned it !!!

Fortunately I do not have the displeasure of sharing the same soil as I am English. I take it I am supposed to be offended by your oh so cutting (and clever) response but as I haven't done any homework in the 5 years since I finished school I've decided not to take offence.

Well, you obviously act with the maturity of a 6th grader. And wow, bringing in nations into this, real mature.

At this point, Arnold, I really hope HHH wins the title at Mania just so we can see if VErmaat's right, and it breaks WWE.

It would start the WWE on a bad road, but WWE will have a chance to recover!

I see effort from John Cena, but it wasn't as good as Kurt Angle, or Chris Benoit, or Finlay, or Bobby Lashley, or Paul Burchill, or the Spirit Squad, or Randy Orton, or Triple H, or Shelton Benjamin, or Shawn Michaels. Yup, I can say it too!

I disagree with that assertion. You might disagree with mine. However, I think WWE knows what they are doing most of the time and if what I said was false, then they would see this insane talent in the wrestler you like and push him.

And another thing Vermin, don't call people 'kid' Especially if you dont check their actual age.

If you don't want to be called kid, then maybe you need to act your age. All I see is someone immature acting like a little kid who just learned some "bad" words. Your actual age might be high, but your mental age is low, in the single digits.

Vermaat, you said you know wrestling is scripted. Guys cannot go out and talk whenever they want to, management has to OK it. Akio NEVER had the chance to talk. He can't just go and talk because he wants to.

True. I know this. However WWE is not stupid. If a guy can talk, then they will let him talk. WWE knew Akio couldn't, so they didn't let him.

Your statement about it being easier to talk to a small group rather than a larger group is not fact, by the way. Want an example? Johnny Carson. I've heard numerous statements from people close to him that claim Carson was far more comfortable in front of a larger crowd than a smaller crowd.

That might be true, but wouldn't the WWE know it? If Akio could talk, then I think they would let him. He probably had a bad attitude about it.

You say that Paul London's standing SSP is more impressive because less people do it.

It's more impressive to me because he needs to jump into the air and do it. The regular SSP he does the same thing in effect but he gets in the air by climbing the ropes. This is why the regular SSP seems to be less impressive. I mean, big guys like Lesnar can (Could?) do the SSP, but I doubt they can do it standing. It is hard.

Have you actually seen Sliced Bread #2?

Yes I have. So basically, based on what you said, it is all like the dudley dog except the last part. This is why I don't think it's innovative. It is derived and quite similar to a move another wrestler did in the WWE a long time ago. And a move doesn't need high impact to be innovative.

None of those moves is innovative. Victoria's slingshot flipping leg drop is more creative.

I haven't seen anyone do these moves like Rey Mysterio does it, thus they are innovative. Mysterio takes them to a new level because he does them with such speed and in a different fashion. It just looks cool when he is doing it and I don't remember other cruisers doing it. Thus it is Innovative.

I want to see why you would give the blame to Randy and not Rey.

Because Rey did not say ONE offensive thing about Eddie.

Keep in mind that Randy Orton would have been given a script, and that Rey Mysterio would have known what was going to be said.

Ok so he should have protested Orton's part, but not his own as he didn't say anything bad i.

This brings up my next point, only the best being in the WWE. Test, why is he back?

Neither of us know if he increased or decreased in ability. I think he will increase, you think he decreased. Neither of us is right, we don't know. However, I think WWE hired him back because he has agreed to try and improve.

When wrestlers with potential are released you claim they need to be good talkers, wrestlers and have good characters. You do realise that Aaron Aguilera and Matt Morgan are fantastic talkers don't you?

Morgan and Aguilera were likely released for other reasons other then talking. Matt Morgan was a pretty generic hoss and Aguilera was a terrible brawler. I mean, I remember his match with Cena, it was pretty poor. I guess WWE didn't see potential in them or maybe, just maybe, they refused to even show it.

I don't see why you guys are all like "WWE is evil" and all wrestlers are right. Some guys are just plain poor in some fields.

If Brian Kendrick were released tomorrow, why would that be? Give me one good reason based on Kendrick's abilities.

He isn't. However, I could see WWE releasing him because they only have two hours of a show to fill and sometimes, there is more people then they can have there, even if they are all good. That's the only good reason I can think of as Kendrick is a pretty awesome wrestler.

Watch Romeo Roselli and "The Promise" Antonio Thomas in OVW.

They started off good but went DOWNHILL fast. Why? We don't know. I suspect they said "we're at the top let's stop putting any more effort in"

How do you know he stopped because of reasons other than the product?

Because that's the reasons you gave me. Have nothing to do with the product lol.

John Cena is aimed at mature fans? The guy looks SIX YEARS OLD! His clothing is ridiculous try-hardish.

John Cena can't throw punches? Then HHH can't do the pedigree. His punches look cool and he doesn't look like he is six years old. He looks like a normal young guy today. He dresses hip hop because that's what the culture is today. He is T-O-D-A-Y. Literaly.

I think you said John Cena is an easy target. Why? Why is the guy you claim to be the best face in the company an easy target for fans to boo? Fans "cheer" good faces.

Because Cena has been going against ineffective heels. If he went against effective heels, then he wouldn't be an easy target.

Cena hasn't done that.

He was getting INSANE cheers feuding with JBL, until he started going against bad heels.

Troublemakers, if they exist in the quantity you say they do, should have the product based around them, because they are making up a HUGE number of ticket sales.

ONe day they like one thing, another day another. You can't build a product aimed at pleasing them, they never like one thing, they are not true fans.

Just thought I'd bring up Batista. Why isn't he booed? He was the top guy last year, yet he always got cheered. Where were the troublemakers?

Batista had a better progression. He feuded with Triple H and Triple H was playing his role well (no stupid jokes about reebok).

Vermaat, you are a God damn retard. Mere words cannot begin to describe how fucking stupid you are. Unlike other morons who have posted here, just seeing your name makes me angry. Angry, yet excited how some of the TPWWers are going to take your little opinions and rip them to shreds with facts. Basically, with you, I'm hoping you get a searing case of herpes from a truck stop bathroom. Go fuck yourself.

What do we have here? Oh a little kid that's insecure of himself. Getting angry at a message board? LOL !!!

Wouldn't it be awesome though? To see Mania break WWE? I mean, bad apples are already destroying it from the inside...

You are not understanding the point. WWE won't break instantly, it will just go on a road that can lead to it's destructon later.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Wouldn't it be awesome though? To see Mania break WWE? I mean, bad apples are already destroying it from the inside...

I wish some bad apples would go to TNA show tapings. Just boo somebody for christ sakes. (other than JJ obviously.)

I can't wait to see Cena on Velocity at this time next year.

Cena will NEVER EVER go that low on the card. He is NEVER going to be a jobber.

[James Steele]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Cena will NEVER EVER go that low on the card. He is NEVER going to be a jobber.

Unfortunately.

I have proof that solves the Mysterio issue once and for all.

From a reliable news source.

Some fans may be uncomfortable with the repeated references to the Guerrero-Mysterio friendship in storylines that have led up to Wrestlemania. But Mysterio insisted references to Guerrero came with his family's blessing. "We would not have done anything without … Vickie's [Eddie's widow] blessing," he said. "If anything, Eddie would have wanted it this way. He may have gotten a kick out of some of the things we said about him."

From ABCNEWS. That's right, ABCNEWS. A reliable news source. Don't believe?

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/...1754238&page=3

[The One]

That doesn't solve shit. I still think Rey Mysterio is benefiting from his friend's death...something I would never do.

By the way, we already knew Vickie gave her blessings to continue to have Eddie be a part of the story lines...doesn't mean we have to give it the thumbs up.

Oh and one more thing...JUST LEAVE ALREADY!

[PureHatred]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Cena will NEVER EVER go that low on the card. He is NEVER going to be a jobber.

You're a fag. Seriously, fuck you.

I tried to do the whole debate thing with you earlier. But you're basically taking all the points and examples that people have given you -such as DVD material, radio and print interviews, historic records, books, live audience reaction, etc - and dismissing them entirely because they don't meet your arbitrary CRITERIA; which concidentally seems to boil down to "If Varmint says it it is TRUTH."

The fact that at one point you said that any item you see that doesn't come from an "official" (which in your eyes I'm sure means WWE) site is a rumor is laughable. Especilly when the people at the E spin facts like they were on Bush's cabinet. The fact that you put forth your version of things over the accounts given by wrestlers in the business because they are "biased" or "bitter" shows and ASTOUNDING amount of hubris on your part.

Throughout this massive thread, with all your massive responses, you basically repeat the same points over and over again without once recognizing the responses you're given or even basic common sense. You have articulated opinions on subjects you yourself say you have knowledge of. And your blind faith in all things WWE is almost perverse considering that you started this thread by saying that the WWE would be in trouble unless they did things YOUR WAY.

So not only are you saying that you're smarter and know more than every poster on this board, every wrestler and member of the front office or backstage personnel brought forth as examples, but you are also SMARTER THAN VINCE MCMAHON AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF THE WWE.

You're a failure as a human being.

I hate you, I hate you, I don't even know you and hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you and nbody else but you.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Arnold HamNegger I wish some bad apples would go to TNA show tapings. Just boo somebody for christ sakes. (other than JJ obviously.) I can't wait to see Cena on Velocity at this time next year.

I don't think we'll see either happen. Especially since booing is against TNA's policy, and WWE admitting that one of their top guys isn't drawing is against theirs.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat I have proof that solves the Mysterio issue once and for all. From a reliable news source. From ABCNEWS. That's right, ABCNEWS. A reliable news source. Don't believe? http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/...1754238&page=3

That's the reporting of a claim.

If you don't have to accept claims that Rob Van Dam says that movessets are limited in the company, why should we have to accept your hearsay?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Cena will NEVER EVER go that low on the card. He is NEVER going to be a jobber.

Funny, claiming it'll never happen.

[LK]

You know I made a big effort to try and read through this entire thread but I stopped at page three since it looked quite boring and some guy refusing to take on other peoples opinion. So Vermaat, you're a Cena fan obviously - fair enough. Do I think that he's the best new talent in the last 5 or so years: no I think that was Jericho (stretching it a little but still) but you like Cena so that's alright. Just please stop denying that a large percentage of the wrestling fanbase has turned against Cena.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Just because it worked for one guy doesn't mean it will work for another. Yes losing can make a guy into a big face like with Stone Cold, however, it can also make a guy not hold his ground as a face. It depends on their characters and it fit Stone Cold but doesn't fit Cena or Goldberg (no wonder WWE ruined him and he wasnm't as over).

Are you that stupid? Don't you see that I can turn your own logic against you? Just because it worked for Goldberg doesn't mean it would work for Cena. And the cold hard fact is that it didn't. You seem to ignore the fact that Cena held the Title for a LOOOONNNGGG time before losing to Edge. This is why people got sick of him, because he was booked as to "cartoonish and Superman like." Ironically, if WWE were to listen to your "theory" and "logic", your precious Cena would get even more boo's than he is now. You single handedly are trying to fuck your own hero. Keep up the good work!

Originally Posted by Vermaat Yes now they are doing it automatically because they are used to doing it as a cool thing and because they watched it from home.

LOL!!!!! This might be the dumbest thing you've said on this thread. (And that's saying ALOT.) If you really believe this then you are fucking hopeless. So, according to your theory....pretty much everyone in attendance in Detroit at SNME is not a "REAL WRESTLING" fan? Because the response when Cena's face smacked the canvas was deafening. Even worse, the "sheep" are actually Cena fans....but have watched what "cool" people are doing from home...and decide to boo their favorite wrestler to seem cool. Your theory is fucked up on so many levels it's hilarious. Do you remember RAW a couple weeks ago? He actually didn't get boo'd that much, if at all. Those people in the crowd obviously watch the same "bad apples" at home as everyone else....yet, they didn't conform to your theory. The fact is that in every town, the boo's are at a different level each time....you know why? Because in each town, individual people with individual taste's pay their hard earned money to watch RAW and they boo who they want to boo and they cheer who they want to cheer. Each town has a different amount of people that don't like Cena. That's the explanation. There is no conspiracy theory against Cena as you suggest. Individuals that don't like him, express their individual opinion by booing him. The ONLY logical SANE conclusion to anyone that's not a brainwashed, delusional Cena mark is that alot of people don't like Cena in Detroit.

Originally Posted by Vermaat I didn't say there needed to be a big change in my original post. I said that WWE needs to watch what they are doing because doing the wrong thing at Mania can lead to trouble later on. I looked at some areas where WWE may do wrong.

Newsflash Junior...they are serving up Cena to HHH on a silver platter. Deep down you know it, that's why you felt the need to make this thread. The "change" is that you want Cena to win. Simple enough for you?

Originally Posted by Vermaat But of course you guys just love to pick on typos anything to avoid the FACTS.

There's nothing to avoid, you haven't provided one FACT the entire thread.

Originally Posted by Vermaat Not psychic, I just know people's psychology. Sex sells. Proven FACT.

Again, lumping people into a "flock of sheep" and ignoring the fact that people have individual tastes and opinions....WHICH YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY KNOW IF YOU AREN'T PSYCHIC! If every wrestling fan is just after sex, then explain why Candice has been getting NO REACTION from the fans.

Originally Posted by Vermaat I'm not arguing against the DVD. The DVD didn't say "The WWE had absolutely nothing to do with wCw going out of business".

That's not the point I'm arguing you jackass, obviously WWE had ALOT to do with WCW going out of business. I think jacking off to your Cena posters is making you blind.

Originally Posted by Vermaat And former wCw employees are going to be biased because they want to be viewed as good workers.

What in the blue flying christ are you talking about? Seriously? THEY RIP INTO THE WCW!

Originally Posted by Vermaat I would need to watch the DVD to give you a more concise reasoning on the fans idea, however, even if they did not mention it, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. They may have just not mentioned it !!!

Until you watch the DVD, please shut up. Interviews with people such as Eddie, Benoit, Big Show, Jericho, etc. state their displeasure with WCW because the fact is that the only people Bischoff listened too were Bischoff and the Political monsters behind the curtain that controlled the NWO. All of these people state that everyone was getting sick of the NWO! A quote from the DVD is "On our show, you couldn't tell what month it was." Thus, as the DVD goes on to point out....WCW didn't listen to the fans. The fans LOVED the cruiserweights, luchador's, etc.....but they got ignored. Hell, the fans LOVED Bret Hart when he came to WCW, but it took WCW over a year before they took him seriously and gave him a title shot. Also, on the DVD, a HUGE point is confirmed that proves your theory wrong as well. The only time that WCW listened to the fans and pushed anyone other than the NWO is Goldberg. Thus, eventually fans jumped ship to watch the WWE and lead to WCW getting crap ratings and going out of business. Is that simple enough for you? Therefore, your opinion...which was an assumption based on talking to a few people to begin with, is DEAD WRONG. End of discussion.

[Kane Knight]

IT's funny, he even admits that Vicne is marketing to what's "cool" by having a Wigger champ.

[LK]

Could someone that's read the entire thread just sort of sum it up for me? I know he's denying people have turned on Cena for other reasons, besides it being 'cool' but what else is he saying?

Just because it worked for Goldberg doesn't mean it would work for Cena. And the cold hard fact is that it didn't. You seem to ignore the fact that Cena held the Title for a LOOOONNNGGG time before losing to Edge.

It didn't work for Cena because THEY DID NOT USE IT FOR CENA. Goldberg had a whole streak with a count. Cena didn't.

This is why people got sick of him, because he was booked as to "cartoonish and Superman like."

"People" got sick of him because the heels were not doing their job right. And if you want to talk SNME, GUESS WHAT, I heard a lot of cheers for Cena besides the boos. This proves that Cena has a lot of fans and that not everyone is out to screw up the show for giggles like you.

LOL!!!!! This might be the dumbest thing you've said on this thread. (And that's saying ALOT.) If you really believe this then you are fucking hopeless. So, according to your theory....pretty much everyone in attendance in Detroit at SNME is not a "REAL WRESTLING" fan? Because the response when Cena's face smacked the canvas was deafening.

Like I said above I heard a lot of cheers as well. And the cheers are because HHH is not playing a proper heel. The whole thing about reebok PROVED it. He is trying to be funny because HHH doesn't like Cena because Cena is the biggest thing WWE has got in a while and he sees him as a threat so he is playing a bad heel.

There is no conspiracy theory against Cena as you suggest. Individuals that don't like him, express their individual opinion by booing him.

Some do. However, a lot of people just do it for giggles or because the heel is playing a bad role !!!

Newsflash Junior...they are serving up Cena to HHH on a silver platter.

The match is 50-50 it can go either way. And that is not a change, if HHH wins and I say it, then yeah, I want a change.

If every wrestling fan is just after sex, then explain why Candice has been getting NO REACTION from the fans.

There's a difference between a chick that's hot and sex. There are a lot of hot chicks in wrestling, but never do they promise live sex. People want to see the actual act, that's why they decided to look. A lot of people were curious to see how WWE would do such a thing

That's not the point I'm arguing you jackass, obviously WWE had ALOT to do with WCW going out of business. I think jacking off to your Cena posters is making you blind.

Ahh, a personal insult. I'm sorry you have confidence issues.

What in the blue flying christ are you talking about? Seriously? THEY RIP INTO THE WCW!

That's right, they want to show that they are good workers to the WWE. WWE doesn't want hire someone who likes a rival, they want to hire guys who hate their rival, even if they did take it out of business. That's why these wrestlers are saying these things there

Interviews with people such as Eddie, Benoit, Big Show, Jericho, etc. state their displeasure with WCW because the fact is that the only people Bischoff listened too were Bischoff and the Political monsters behind the curtain that controlled the NWO. All of these people state that everyone was getting sick of the NWO! A quote from the DVD is "On our show, you couldn't tell what month it was." Thus, as the DVD goes on to point out....WCW didn't listen to the fans. The fans LOVED the cruiserweights, luchador's, etc.....but they got ignored. Hell, the fans LOVED Bret Hart when he came to WCW, but it took WCW over a year before they took him seriously and gave him a title shot. Also, on the DVD, a HUGE point is confirmed that proves your theory wrong as well. The only time that WCW listened to the fans and pushed anyone other than the NWO is Goldberg. Thus, eventually fans jumped ship to watch the WWE and lead to WCW getting crap ratings and going out of business. Is that simple enough for you? Therefore, your opinion...which was an assumption based on talking to a few people to begin with, is DEAD WRONG. End of discussion.

But the fans hated the NWO as heels. This shows it. wCw pushed the nWo because the fans disliked it so much and the role of a heel is to be disliked.

And it is not an opinion, it is a little something called logic that you lack. It seems to me, based on YOUR post, the biggest problem with wCw was pushing the nWo and I showed how wCw pushed the nWo because they listened to the fans and thought they were a good heel. It is very simple to see really.

And luchadors got ignored? That's why wCw was having so many luchador matches. lol !!!

Originally Posted by LK Could someone that's read the entire thread just sort of sum it up for me? I know he's denying people have turned on Cena for other reasons, besides it being 'cool' but what else is he saying?

Cena is not a wigger. Cena is real. Cena is Hip Hop. It's his culture.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by LK Could someone that's read the entire thread just sort of sum it up for me? I know he's denying people have turned on Cena for other reasons, besides it being 'cool' but what else is he saying?

Cruiserweights don't try, except Rey Mysterio who's innovative. WWE is going strong, though the thread is about it being make or break for them. WCW and ECW died because they listened to their fans, Cena should be booked as a nauseating babyface, because bad ratings and boos aren't enough of a reason to listen to fans.

There's prolly more.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Cena is a wigger. Cena is shit. It's his culture.

Right. Wigger culture.

[Kalyx triaD]

LOL He said "Wigger".

[Mr. Nerfect]

You said the WWE would have given Akio a chance to talk if he could. By this logic, John Cena can't talk. When he first debuted on SmackDown!, Cena lost to Angle, and while it was a good match, Cena was bland for months. By your logic, this is John Cena's fault and not the WWE's.

You said my relatives stopped watching because of reasons not relating to the product. FALSE! They stopped because they thought the product declined in quality. While Stone Cold Steve Austin turning heel at WrestleMania X7 was brilliant, my uncle hated it, and stopped watching. My cousin stopped watching just last year because he felt it was getting "stupid". My cousin is in touch with today's culture by the way.

You claim that the superstars get lazy. This is a really illogical statement to make. Why would guys like Frankie Kazarian & Brian Kendrick leave the company? Don't say to improve, because you made the point that guys can improve in the WWE. Why would Jamie Noble leave the WWE, have fantastic matches, come back, and then have "lazy" matches? That makes no sence; unless the WWE FORCED Noble to have lazy matches.

The evidence rules out your "cruiserweights are lazy" theory. They're not, the WWE is afraid that top talent like Triple H will be seen as slow otherwise.

You want another example of people being told to tone down? Joey Styles. Brilliant commentator in ECW, told he is shit in the WWE.

Rey Mysterio WAS innovative. He's not now. In your opinion he is, but it is also your opinion that the cruiserweights are lazy, so your opinion is uneducated. Mysterio is SLOWER in the ring than he was. Does that mean he is lazy? Give me one move Rey Mysterio has done in the WWE that no one else does or that no one else can do.

You said that Sliced Bread #2 isn't innovative, because it starts off the same way as a Dudley Dog, yet you say the 619 is innovative? Stone Cold Steve Austin used to do a move that starts off in the same position as the 619. By your logic, the 619 is not innovative.

I don't mean to offend you here, because you have responded to my comments politely, and I have meant to do the same, but you are a sheep to the WWE. You act as if they are the most caring company in the world, letting "lazy" people stay with them for so long, etc.

You said John Cena should have gone on a Goldberg streak. Why? Why would it work for Cena, but it not work for so many other talent? You said losing can't get people over, but both Stone Cold Steve Austin & The Rock lost frequently. Shawn Michaels has a pretty awful WrestleMania record, does that mean he sucks? You're biased towards Cena, I'm sorry, but your points all seem in favour of giving him ideas that you THINK will get him over, yet when we try and offer alternatives, you THINk you know better than us. You even THINK you know better than the WWE.

And I am sorry, but John Cena's punches are awful. I like the guy, but he is not a brawler. By the way, Aaron Aguilera has been known as "The Hardcore Kidd", he can brawl. Cena dominated their match at Armageddon 2004, which is why it sucked so much. Wow, that also destroys your Goldberg theory. Cena was made to look invincible for the match, and you claim it sucked. Interesting.

John Cena does look like a six-year old. His feet annoy me, because he has shoes which make him look like those try-hard kids you see in the supermarkets. Not the ones that are "today", but the ones that think they are. The sheepish ones.

Something about his torso frustrates me, too. It looks like he's just been waxed, not the real lifestyle of a gangster, is it? Sorry, but Cena is only playing the character. He's not real. Cena is a wrestler, and when he wrestles he is good. When he is playing Superman and throwing corny-looking punches, that is when the heat builds up.

Fans boo Cena because they do not like him. Please get that through your head. It is not because he is untalented, it is not because he is a not a future player in the company. He is talented and he will be a main eventer for a long time. You can relax about that. People just don't like the character he plays. They have not been brainwashed, you have. You see John Cena as some kind of God, and the WWE as some kind of Heaven. Stop it! They have declined in fanbase and in quality in most sane people's opinions. Stop trying to use "facts" to prove otherwise when the fact is, some people like him, some people do not. More recently, it is evident the not is taking over. They are not evil or fake fans, they are the real fans, the ones that know what they're watching is crap, and are not afraid to let the WWE know it.

And by the way, you missed the whole point when I said Paul London does a standing shooting star press. I said it is harder to do than a regular one, so why does he only do it off the ground instead of off the turnbuckle if he is lazy? My point is, he hits senton bombs off the top rope because management won't let him do anything fantastic like the London Calling. It's all politics.

[The One]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Cena is not a wigger. Cena is real. Cena is Hip Hop. It's his culture.

West Newbury, Massachusetts...Yeah, I know! It's like The Bronx, Compton, and the hard streets of West Newbury. He is totally gangsta. Cena is completly for real. I am sure he spent many a hour in between his piano lessons and his horseback riding classes get down and dirty with his home boys at Springfeild College.

No no you dumbass. His culture is Wine and Cheese. Is that bad? No. My culture is Wine and Cheese. I grew up privaliged as well. I enjoy rap and hip hop a lot. But I don't go around trying to say I am the doctor of thugonomics. Nor would I EVER try to start a career in Rap, despite the fact that me a my homies agree I tear it up and rock the hizzouse with my kickin rhymes.

[Xero]

Hey, you've said that you won't believe ANYTHING unless it's on WWE.com. Well buddy, I'd like you to reference EVERYTHING you stated as "fact" in this thread to something on WWE.com. If you can't do that, your logic that anything not on WWE.com is obviously destroyed.

As you said, if it's not on WWE.com, it's not fact. If you polled 10,000 people about if they like Cena or not, if it's not posted on WWE.com it's just "rumor", even though you (or someone else) took hours to ask EVERY one of those people if they like Cena or not.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Some do. However, a lot of people just do it for giggles or because the heel is playing a bad role !!!

So now the best heel in recent memory, HHH....the darling of WWE management is suddenly playing a bad heel. You're too much, really.

Originally Posted by Vermaat That's right, they want to show that they are good workers to the WWE. WWE doesn't want hire someone who likes a rival, they want to hire guys who hate their rival, even if they did take it out of business. That's why these wrestlers are saying these things there

AGAIN YOU DISCOUNT WORDS COMING OUT OF ACTUAL WRESTLERS MOUTHS BECAUSE IT PROVES YOU WRONG! You have issues, seek professional help.

Originally Posted by Vermaat And it is not an opinion, it is a little something called logic that you lack. It seems to me, based on YOUR post, the biggest problem with wCw was pushing the nWo and I showed how wCw pushed the nWo because they listened to the fans and thought they were a good heel. It is very simple to see really.

I don't need logic you ignorant fucking asshole! The facts are on the DVD, there's no logic to be used!! You keep repeating your same bullshit "logic" over and over again..EVEN THOUGH IT IS 100% WRONG! You aren't debating the issue, you're looking like a raving delusional idiot! How can I spell it out any different for you......on the DVD they state that THE ONLY ONES AT THE END WHO WANTED THE NWO WERE BISCHOFF AND THE NWO! There are COUNTLESS people who testify to this and admit that the fans as well as alot of the wrestlers within the company were ignored! THIS IS WHY FANS QUIT WATCHING AND WHY WRESTLERS JUMPED SHIP TO WWE!
This is NOT MY OPINION, this is NOT a subject that you can "logically" come up with a different scenerio and claim to be right. I'm quoting actual facts from actual professional people involved...WHICH YOU CAN WATCH YOURSELF AT ANYTIME...and you're telling me I'm wrong because I lack logic? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Originally Posted by Vermaat And luchadors got ignored? That's why wCw was having so many luchador matches. lol !!!

There weren't that many matches at the end of WCW and they were never used as anything more than filler. They took a backseat to the older, big name wrestlers....BUT OH, you wouldn't know that because YOU DIDN"T WATCH IT!

How you continue to argue with me when #1you didn't watch WCW and know nothing about them and #2 have never watched the DVD I'm refering too, yet keep discarding documented facts from everyone that was ever involved on the subject and INSIST that you are right is beyond me! How are you an expert on something that you know nothing about? You're gonna discard professional opinions and facts based on "logic" you've obtained from asking a few teenagers?

Seriously, all you have to do is say "OK, I was wrong. I didn't know that there was a DVD that discusses this subject THOROUGHLY and I was mistaken." Is that so hard? I really try not to resort to name-calling, but it's this attitude of yours that makes it impossible not to get upset and call you a fucking idiot...because there's no other explanation.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by The One West Newbury, Massachusetts...Yeah, I know! It's like The Bronx, Compton, and the hard streets of West Newbury. He is totally gangsta. Cena is completly for real. I am sure he spent many a hour in between his piano lessons and his horseback riding classes get down and dirty with his home boys at Springfeild College. No no you dumbass. His culture is Wine and Cheese. Is that bad? No. My culture is Wine and Cheese. I grew up privaliged as well. I enjoy rap and hip hop a lot. But I don't go around trying to say I am the doctor of thugonomics. Nor would I EVER try to start a career in Rap, despite the fact that me a my homies agree I tear it up and rock the hizzouse with my kickin rhymes.

He's also not a good rapper. He's good for a fake rapper on a fake show abnout a fake sport, but he's a wigger pure and simple./

[AJHayes]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Quote: Have you actually seen Sliced Bread #2? Yes I have. So basically, based on what you said, it is all like the dudley dog except the last part. This is why I don't think it's innovative. It is derived and quite similar to a move another wrestler did in the WWE a long time ago. And a move doesn't need high impact to be innovative. Quote: None of those moves is innovative. Victoria's slingshot flipping leg drop is more creative. I haven't seen anyone do these moves like Rey Mysterio does it, thus they are innovative. Mysterio takes them to a new level because he does them with such speed and in a different fashion. It just looks cool when he is doing it and I don't remember other cruisers doing it. Thus it is Innovative.

So basically what you're saying is that Mysterio is more innovative than sliced bread (think about that part for a second) because he does a lot of the same moves that every other Lucha Libre wrester does... Oh, wait.. He does them a little different (sliced bread is A LITTLE DIFFERENT than the Acid Drop) and he does them faster (Luchadores are fast. Watch something other than WWE and you'll know this, you fucktard.)

Cena is a wigger. Wiggers piss off a lot of people because they are fucking pathetic. Theres a word for what a wigger really is: POSER.

There is a way to redeem Cena: Fans boo him, so he says (I'm not going to use wigger-speak for this): "You wanna boo me? Fine. Fuck you. I'm still the champ and theres not a damn thing you can do about it but sit on your fat ass and watch me take all challengers." Then he goes back to the way he was during his US title buildup.
Thats the only way I can see him being over. He shows sparks of wrestling talent, but he has gotten fucking lazy since he won the title.

...AND THAT FUCKING SPINNER BELT PISSES ME OFF! Sure, go ahead Cena, shit on the reputation of the belt. Your fanbois and fangirls will love you for it. Wrestling fans will say fuck you and you'll quickly find yourself completely unrespectable.

But, I suppose there is a way that I can insult a wigger horribly (I roomed with one when I was in the military, definately not my choice, he was wigger/metrosexual. After his pedicure/manicure, he was thuggin around with his homies.) CENA IS A SELLOUT. Plain and simple. Just like FEminem. Fucking sellout.

Of course, I hate rap, so.... yeah, he gets no bonus points in that department.

In closing, Vermaat.. I'm gonna keep praying for something in your brain to snap and you join the rest of society. Now, until then, go wear your baggy pants around your knees, a negro league baseball jersey, a do-rag, a sideways baseball cap.... Then go to your room... Take all that off... roll it into a little ball.. And give yourself a "stupid clothes enema." Then jerk off to your Word Life Poster.

*Fap fap fap fap* oohh.... yeah Cena... THIS IS BASIC THUGANOMICS!!! */fap*

[Kane Knight]

I love the fact that "I don't remember other cruisers doing it" = innovative. How retarded is that!

"This movie has clearly ripped off Citizen Kane!"

"Well, I've never seen that before, so the plot twist was innovative!"

[Arnold HamNegger]

Originally Posted by BelfastBomber Cena is a wigger. Wiggers piss off a lot of people because they are fucking pathetic. Theres a word for what a wigger really is: POSER.

Yeah, another concept that Vermaat is in denial of. It's a simple formula really: "If you are white + acting black = wigger"
Cena has even admitted in an interview a while ago (I believe it was Byte, could be wrong) that he had only gotten into rap just prior to his character with WWE. Get that Vermaat, Cena is playing a character...and it's not a direct representative of his culture...he's playing a wigger. People are generally sick of wiggers and that's why they love to see Cena get his ass beat.

Originally Posted by BelfastBomber There is a way to redeem Cena: Fans boo him, so he says (I'm not going to use wigger-speak for this): "You wanna boo me? Fine. Fuck you. I'm still the champ and theres not a damn thing you can do about it but sit on your fat ass and watch me take all challengers."

This has actually been touched on a couple times by Cena and the WWE. He started a promo defending the troups backstage in the Angle feud with "Hell, half the people out their don't like me....." Cena even cut that promo in the ring where he told everyone that was "drinking Hateraid" that they could kiss his ass.

J.R. on SNME started a line with "Whether you like Cena or not....."

So, fans are booing Cena....Cena admits that people out there don't like him...J.R. knows that people don't like him....thus, WWE realizes people don't like him. YET, Vermaat continues to argue otherwise. I think he needs to stop arguing with us and email Cena, J.R. and WWE and tell them that they are idiots and lack "logic."

[Kane Knight]

They really ought to just have Cena "look out for number 1." Especially if he drops the F-Bomb a few times on the fans who are booing him.

The problem is, they'll probably make him a chickenshit heel like 90% of the roster, because like Vermaat, the WWE execs seem to think that being formulaic works. Which is why they spend so much time ignoring the success of other heels, or ruining them (Cena, Orton).

Like Vermaat, like most Cena marks, they lack logic, alright.

Cena was successful, so let's totally change his character. We all saw this coming, the fans turning on him.

[Volare]

i see it like this...

Rock started as face, then people (like us getting sick of Cena) started hating Rock...what does he do?? he Changes his style to heel, Becomes better on the mic, (IMPROVING HIS SKILL!!) and joins the nation. That's a Smart Move.

Cena Started Face, then went Heel (with B2(B-Squared)) and now is face again
What does he have to show for it...
Same gimmic lines (you cant see me, same style promos, moves/charecter) "IMO"

in other words, fans are getting BORED. Why?? Cause its time for a change, Hell Trips even loses the Title now and again. And for One Simple Reason

It Gives time to change up the Story Lines, bring someone else to the table and showcase what they got.

Look at the great Rivalrys Trips has had...
Comepare that list to Cena's (Nuff Said)

"IMO" It's all about the build up of the charecter, and how you can change that immage to draw in others...and cena buried himself alive

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Volare "IMO" It's all about the build up of the charecter, and how you can change that immage to draw in others...and cena buried himself alive

Now that's not fair. Cena did NOT bury himself alone, the WWE fucked him over and buried him by pussifiying him. Cena didn't do it completely by himself. Did he have a hand in it? Sure, no doubt, but it's more WWE's fault than Cena's.

Holy fuck, I just stuck up for Cena! Am I a hypocrite!?

[Kane Knight]

Cena is expected to be a leader and has shown no leadership skills. He was the new franchise and had more job security than almost anyone in the business.

He really has buried himself...The WWE just tossed him a shovel and pointed at the plot...

[tucsonspeed6]

Originally Posted by Vermaat He is T-O-D-A-Y. Literaly.

Literally? Then I guess that mean's they're interchangable...

Say, it sure is lovely weather we're having John Cena.

Oh, we're out of milk. Can you pick some up John Cena after work?

Uh oh. The electric bill is due John Cena! I better get that in soon.

Don't put off til tomorrow what you can do John Cena

Originally Posted by Vermaat Because Cena has been going against ineffective heels. If he went against effective heels, then he wouldn't be an easy target.

Yeah, feeding him clean wins over every heel in the business will surely make the heels effective.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Now that's not fair. Cena did NOT bury himself alone, the WWE fucked him over and buried him by pussifiying him. Cena didn't do it completely by himself. Did he have a hand in it? Sure, no doubt, but it's more WWE's fault than Cena's.

Yeah, you're exactly right. The pathetic thing is that Vermaat keeps blaming the heels for Cena's lack of support. Let's analyze Cena's last 4 opponents:

Jericho- "Future Hall of Famer."

Angle- "Future Hall of Famer."

Edge- "Not quite Hall of Fame status, but was arguably getting the most heel heat in the WWE until he feuded with Cena."

HHH- "Future Hall of Famer & probably the heir apparent to Vince McMahon and the WWE."

That's four of the most SOLID wrestling performers/entertainers in today's era...yet they are all to blame and not Cena? Hell, Christian was even getting face pops for bad mouthing Cena when he came to RAW. I firmly believe that the reason they dropped Christian from the Cena story line (and RAW) was to protect Cena, because WWE could see the trend...even way back then.

[XL]

I would like to say that my use of "bad" words shows you nothing of my mental age or IQ. The word I called you is a word that I do not like. I only use the 'C' word in very extreme cases when my opinion of someone is that low that the use of the word is warranted.

Your claim that I have the mental age of someone in single figures really does little to hurt me. If your assertion were true then I guess I would have the mental age of one of those child genius' otherwise there'd be no BA at the end of my name

[XL]

And if I did have said mental age, wouldn't that automatically make me a Cena mark?

May I ask you a question?

Seriously, why do you come here?

I originally thought that it was a joke account but you put far too much effort in with your endless quote replies for it to be a fake account.

So, why do you come here?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by tucsonspeed6 Literally? Then I guess that mean's they're interchangable... Say, it sure is lovely weather we're having John Cena. Oh, we're out of milk. Can you pick some up John Cena after work? Uh oh. The electric bill is due John Cena! I better get that in soon. Don't put off til tomorrow what you can do John Cena

That last one...

Keep in mind, Vermaat is LITERALLY a WWE mark. Meaning that since JR always says that someone was "literally" broken in half (bah gawd stunner baby back ribs), of course he'll infer the wrong reason.

Anyway, the funny thing is, rap is YESTERDAY. I mean, pretty much, we're seeing a decline in rap. Beyond that, you look at popular rappers, and Cena doesn't resemble them. Except maybe Will Smith, or as I like to call him, "Whitey Bored." OMG, see what I did there?

Yeah, feeding him clean wins over every heel in the business will surely make the heels effective.

Well, DUH! How else do you establish them than by feeding them to the most over face evar?