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Old 06-30-2007, 02:45 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
Why is Shawn Michaels not listed as a great wrestler, and should be on the top of that list.
I tried to do it in eras so it's not in any "best-of" order and I never considered him one of the best wrestlers. He's one of the greatest entertainers, not wrestlers.
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:46 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet
Who is the alternative right now?

Is Chris Masters the future of the WWE? Carlito? Lashley?
Actually... Carlito could do it. But ain't he still in the doghouse? Plus he needs his "cool" heel gimmick again... not this lame "I'm a bad guy" heel thing.
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:46 PM   #43
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Michaels is great across the board.
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:02 PM   #44
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That is the problem in WWE right now. They need real bookers. Writers want to do shit that has no chance of getting over in a wrestling enviroment because it got over in sitcoms. Bookers do shit that will put asses in seats and entertain wrestling fans.

Yes, wrestling needs a wide appeal to maximize business but the bottom line is putting asses in seats and eyes on televisions through a good overall product. Storylines are invented to build interest in the "big match" to maximize the money made off the big match. If it is just storylines with no big match then there is no point.

Example: Lance Storm's HUGE DICK! How could that be used to draw? Besides a cheap laugh that would get old after 3 weeks, there would be no entertainment value and no money that could be made off of it.

The whole Austin/McMahon storylines led to the big match at the St. Valentine's Day Massacre Cage Match. Then they used Austin/McMahon to be the foundation for Rock/Austin which led to several big matches through the twists and turns (this made HUGE FUCKING MONEY and a SHITLOAD OF ENTERTAINMENT).

This focus on the storylines over the actual matches themselves has led the WWE into its position now. If it was all wrestling, then ROH would be on top of the world. If it was all show, WWE wouldn't be in the "down period" they are now. I am probably preaching to the choir but the fact is that WWE needs more than 3 or 4 people in writing who understand this concept.
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:38 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
I tried to do it in eras so it's not in any "best-of" order and I never considered him one of the best wrestlers. He's one of the greatest entertainers, not wrestlers.
Are you serious?
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
I tried to do it in eras so it's not in any "best-of" order and I never considered him one of the best wrestlers. He's one of the greatest entertainers, not wrestlers.
... what?
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:48 PM   #47
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100%.

He has entertaining matches, I'm not denying that. And I do find him very entertaining. But when compared to other greats he doesn't match up as far as I'm concerned. He's in the higher tier, but not the highest where wrestlers like Angle, Flair and Bret Hart reside from an in-ring aspect standpoint.

Of course, this can be debated for years whether he was or wasn't the absolute best wrestler ever. I'm sure someone else thinks there NO better wrestler than Shawn Michaels, that he's the be-all and end-all. To me, he isn't.
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:56 PM   #48
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You judge by pure technical wrestling skills. Shawn Michaels was not the greatest technical wrestlers, but Shawn Michaels could wrestle any style and could work with any style.
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:57 PM   #49
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I would be one of those "be all and end all" people.

Just to clarify though... you did put him on the list as simply being a "good" wrestler even though you said he is in the higher tier of wrestlers.

So... not great? Just good? Are we sticking with that?
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:57 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
100%.

He has entertaining matches, I'm not denying that. And I do find him very entertaining. But when compared to other greats he doesn't match up as far as I'm concerned. He's in the higher tier, but not the highest where wrestlers like Angle, Flair and Bret Hart reside from an in-ring aspect standpoint.

Of course, this can be debated for years whether he was or wasn't the absolute best wrestler ever. I'm sure someone else thinks there NO better wrestler than Shawn Michaels, that he's the be-all and end-all. To me, he isn't.

Actually agree. I always find his matches entertaining as hell, but I've never thought he was a complete total package. Like a Benoit or Angle. Surprised I'm not the only one who feels that way.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:01 PM   #51
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... Did you just call Benoit a complete total package?

Could you please calrify because, maybe I'm just thinking of how "total package" has been used so far in this topic but it sounds like you're implying he had more than just pure wrestling skill.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:04 PM   #52
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I'm just talking ring skill.
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:31 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSteele
You judge by pure technical wrestling skills. Shawn Michaels was not the greatest technical wrestlers, but Shawn Michaels could wrestle any style and could work with any style.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:03 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tb1
I'm just talking ring skill.
That's not really a total package though. Benoit was the goods, but he was no total package.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:05 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan
I would be one of those "be all and end all" people.

Just to clarify though... you did put him on the list as simply being a "good" wrestler even though you said he is in the higher tier of wrestlers.

So... not great? Just good? Are we sticking with that?
Good, not great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSteele
You judge by pure technical wrestling skills. Shawn Michaels was not the greatest technical wrestlers, but Shawn Michaels could wrestle any style and could work with any style.
Incorrect, I was judging overall. Michaels doesn't really shine in anything other than his main high-flying and faster spots.

Kurt Angle, for example, is (in some things way) above above average in (almost) everything he does in the ring. Brawling, submission, grappling, "wrestling". The only thing he isn't above average in is his top rope spots, but he can do that well too.

Again, Michaels has his high and faster spots, and arguably his selling, but other than that he's average at best (from a "pro wrestling" standpoint) which is why I say he's a great sports entertainer, not wrestler.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:06 PM   #56
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Blasphemy!!!!
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:14 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126
Incorrect, I was judging overall. Michaels doesn't really shine in anything other than his main high-flying and faster spots.

Kurt Angle, for example, is (in some things way) above above average in (almost) everything he does in the ring. Brawling, submission, grappling, "wrestling". The only thing he isn't above average in is his top rope spots, but he can do that well too.

Again, Michaels has his high and faster spots, and arguably his selling, but other than that he's average at best (from a "pro wrestling" standpoint) which is why I say he's a great sports entertainer, not wrestler.
I disagree. Not like, vehemently so, but Michaels is pretty damn great in every vein of wrestling. Stylistically, he's great. He's still primarily an entertainer, but that's not to dismiss his skills in different wrestling styles.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:18 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSteele
You judge by pure technical wrestling skills. Shawn Michaels was not the greatest technical wrestlers, but Shawn Michaels could wrestle any style and could work with any style.
He could work against anyone in WWE with their style but I don't know if he work the Lucha or Japanese style or the old European style either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
That's not really a total package though. Benoit was the goods, but he was no total package.
He could work the 4 major styles with ease. Only a few guys could. If he could have had the charisma of Steve Austin, he would have been the biggest star in the business.

NOBODY can argue that Shawn Michaels isn't in the top 5 best wrestlers in the WWE in the last 20 years.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:20 PM   #59
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If he had the charisma of Steve Austin? HBK didn't have charisma?
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:49 PM   #60
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Rob, did you just say HBK couldn't wrestle the "lucha libre style"? He brought that style to mainstream wrestling in the 90s (before ECW brought in 100% lucha wrestlers). After all his injuries, he couldn't work it.
Last edited by James Steele; 06-30-2007 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:54 PM   #61
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He also said "If he could have had the charisma of Steve Austin, he would have been the biggest star in the business".

Maybe people forget he was, and had to retire for 4 years from back injuries and such, Michaels has been a great worker his whole career, and still is.
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:54 PM   #62
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Wow this has gone way off topic.

As for Mr. Kennedy being a top guy, upper mid-carder no doubt about it, but he's to injury prone to be "The Guy."
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Old 06-30-2007, 06:56 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
NOBODY can argue that Shawn Michaels isn't in the top 5 best wrestlers in the WWE in the last 20 years.
Agreed.
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Old 06-30-2007, 07:12 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
If he had the charisma of Steve Austin? HBK didn't have charisma?
Of course he did. But Benoit's style is more suited to Austin's charisma than Michaels'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSteele
Rob, did you just say HBK couldn't wrestle the "lucha libre style"? He brought that style to mainstream wrestling in the 90s (before ECW brought in 100% lucha wrestlers). After all his injuries, he couldn't work it.
No he didn't. He did some fast paced flying moves but it's not lucha. The Mexicans learn lucha on day one and the adapted it to something that the American audiences would love to see and understand. You should lucha to the average fan and they wouldn't understand it.
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Old 06-30-2007, 07:26 PM   #65
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Old 06-30-2007, 07:44 PM   #66
James Steele
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Randy Orton will the Scott Hall of our generation. He will fuck up way too much for WWE to imajorly invest in him ever again.
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:18 PM   #67
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I'm pretty sure HBK could pull off a great match with someone like Paul London. His match with Rey Mysterio on the Eddie tribute Raw would have been spectcular if given more time.

That old European style comment though makes me think about Regal being on Raw and the slight possibility of a Regal vs. HBK non-squash down the road.
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:25 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob
Kennedy is gonna be the top man one day. Reports are he is very respectful to everyone and is willing to learn. All the guys like him. His ring work in solid and he can talk so he has a great chance.
Everything it takes.
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:27 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSteele
Randy Orton will the Scott Hall of our generation. He will fuck up way too much for WWE to imajorly invest in him ever again.
Fuck that. They've already proved that they're gonna invest in him, no matter how much he fucks up. Right now, they can't afford not to push him (In their eyes).
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:01 PM   #70
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I personally dont think so- He just hasn't got that "it" factor that makes a viewer want to put on the television

thoughts/comments?
People said the same about the Rock too.
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:28 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSteele
Rob, did you just say HBK couldn't wrestle the "lucha libre style"? He brought that style to mainstream wrestling in the 90s (before ECW brought in 100% lucha wrestlers). After all his injuries, he couldn't work it.
while I really loved the HBK that was right after the rockers, I am not quite suer that he brought the mainstream lucha style into our homes. I thought that it was XPac.
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:32 PM   #72
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I like Kennedys potential
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:33 PM   #73
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Speaking of HBK, I hope his 3 disc set coming out in Nov has tons of great matches on it
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:36 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVDmark
People said the same about the Rock too.
People primarily attacked the Rock for only haveing five moves. Which was a bit more valid at that point than it is now, but still, primarily ignores the fact that entertainers are more valued than straight up wrestlers.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:14 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan
I'm pretty sure HBK could pull off a great match with someone like Paul London. His match with Rey Mysterio on the Eddie tribute Raw would have been spectcular if given more time.
Paul London doesn't work lucha style. Neither does Mysterio in the WWE.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:26 PM   #76
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Important distinction, yes. Michaels can work great matches with high flyers and fast movers. But that doesn't immediately equal Lucha Libre. Not that there's anything wrong with London's style. Just that it's wrong.
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Old 07-01-2007, 01:34 PM   #77
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X-pac did not bring the lucha style to America. If we're going to start naming people, Pillman is at the top of that list. Flyin Brian of the early 90's wrestled that style in WCW and had spotlight matches that audiences adored. And I have to mention Liger as well.

As far as HBK goes, he's always been an awesome wrestler. Not a technical or chain wrestler, but that's not all wrestling. He was never a submission hold kind of guy, but had an variety of moves he worked with. He adapted so well with everyone.
Last edited by Loose Cannon; 07-01-2007 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 07-01-2007, 07:26 PM   #78
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Michaels was doing flying spots long before Pillman and Liger were in the states.

Doesn't matter anyway because a few high spots don't make it a lucha style. You need to watch some proper lucha matches to notice the styles. Youtube search "mistico" or something.
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Old 07-01-2007, 07:49 PM   #79
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Kennedy is Wrestling.

Tag that TNA.
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Old 07-01-2007, 07:55 PM   #80
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Mr. Kennedy, MVP, Elijah Burke>TNA.
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