Benoit had Frontal Lobe Syndrome

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, the real point is I would never want me as the judge if I was going up for murder.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool Ignorance doesn't not negate accountablility in any sence.

Now you're arguing morals and politics. While it would be great if everybody knew everything in the world, they don't, and you can't act like they do. As WWKD said, it was not expected Chris Benoit would murder. I can see why you would hold him responsible for participating in events where his head gets smashed over and over again, and then bad stuff happens, but you can't solely blame Benoit for that. If you're going to use ignorance to hang people, anyone who hit Chris Benoit is also guilty. The WWE would also be guilty for being ignorant of what their sport can cause.

I'm not saying everyone who has hit Benoit is accountable, or that Vince McMahon should go to jail, all I am saying is that there are gray areas with this sort of stuff. That's why in cases like these, you usually just go by the state of mind at the time of the event. In this case, it appears that Chris Benoit was not of sound mind. If you want to argue about who is responsible for Chris Benoit not being of sound mind, then you get a really messy palette. Chris Benoit himself is partially responsible, yes. He consented to the business. So is the business itself. It hit Chris Benoit just as hard as he hit it.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool Also, the real point is I would never want me as the judge if I was going up for murder.

Good call, man.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool OMG, I'm not trying to prove that he knew he was going to kill his family. I am saying he willfully dropped himself on his head some 5000 more times than an average wrestler. And I'm willing to assume the average wrestler is going to take a lot more unprotected head shots than the average football player. And as such, Benoit should have known full well he was hurting his own brain and should have at least thought to keep track of that with cat scans. Who really gives a fuck if WWE wasn't making him keep track of that, he should have been doing it himself. If your job doesn't offer you health care wouldn't you go out and get it yourself? Benoit was an adult capible of making adult desisions sometime before he killed everyone in a retarded rage or whatever it was. His lack of action before that lead to this tragedy. I am not saying he should have gotten a crystal ball to know he was going to do this. I'm saying that if he got a regular cat-scan, then all of this could have been prevented. But what do I know, I'm dumb. I give up. It is all Vince McMahon's fault for bashing Chris's brains in with steriods and tell chris to kill his family. Dumb fucks.

If the dumb fuck comment was directed towards me, feel free to reread what I've already said.

I never once said this was Vince's fault. I AGREE that Benoit SHOULD have had himself checked out. YES, BENOIT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL HEALTH.

HOWEVER,

The WWE should take some responsibility to watch out for the well being of their employees. 100% responsible? Hell no. 50%? Probably not. However, they should either offer, or require, some sort of annual checkup. WWE should be concerned for the health of its employees. They care about whether they're on drugs supposedly, so why not care about their general health as well in regards to how their occupation affects it.

So to sum it up since you very well could be scanning this. It's not Vince's job to see that their employees are healthy....It's the wrestler's job. However, as an employer, the WWE should be concerned with the health of it's employees.

[dablackguy]

Very Simply

ECW killed Chris Benoit. Just another man that would rather die than become ECW Champion.

Can't say that I disagree

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool I meant ignorance of the law doesn't negate accountablility. And if you bash your own brains in to the point you don't know what you are doing any more, still makes you accountable. The same goes for going on a bad acid trip and killing someone during such a trip. Still accountable, even though you think you are killing the devil or something.

I know what you're saying, I really do. However, what this comes down to is mental trauma. In Benoit's situation, I can gurantee you, if the reports are true, he would be found GUILTY due to insanity, or guilty due to diminshed capacity. Either one of those rulings, while he's still guilty, would find him not accountable at the time of the crime.

BTW, those rulings differ in cases regarding things like drugs and alcohol. Having your head bashed however, despite willingly having it done, and then doing something while suffering trauma, would not be found accountable in court.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool OMG, I'm not trying to prove that he knew he was going to kill his family. I am saying he willfully dropped himself on his head some 5000 more times than an average wrestler. And I'm willing to assume the average wrestler is going to take a lot more unprotected head shots than the average football player. And as such, Benoit should have known full well he was hurting his own brain and should have at least thought to keep track of that with cat scans. Who really gives a fuck if WWE wasn't making him keep track of that, he should have been doing it himself. If your job doesn't offer you health care wouldn't you go out and get it yourself? Benoit was an adult capible of making adult desisions sometime before he killed everyone in a retarded rage or whatever it was. His lack of action before that lead to this tragedy. I am not saying he should have gotten a crystal ball to know he was going to do this. I'm saying that if he got a regular cat-scan, then all of this could have been prevented. But what do I know, I'm dumb. I give up. It is all Vince McMahon's fault for bashing Chris's brains in with steriods and tell chris to kill his family. Dumb fucks.

As has been mentioned, do you have any evidence that Chris Benoit did not get CT scans? Someone recalled him actually going in for a concussion, so he would have been scanned then.

Could Chris Benoit have known his head was in worse shape than others? Maybe. I certainly wouldn't have guessed it. Kurt Angle takes a lot of head bumps, and Rey Mysterio has been around for ages. Neither of them has murdered their family. And as you said, it's an assumption that wrestler's take more damage to the head than professional wrestlers. I don't think you can really measure something like this in number, though, because something so little can cause so much damage. If you're head is in danger, it's in danger.

No one is blaming Vince McMahon solely for Chris Benoit's death. He just has something to learn from this. Give a shit about your employees' health. Get them checked and tested. Give them time off. As I have said numerous times, this is precedent. Everything is a lot harder the first time. From this point on, hopefully wrestlers get checked, and they look after themselves, because they know the extent of what can happen otherwise.

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? If the dumb fuck comment was directed towards me, feel free to reread what I've already said. I never once said this was Vince's fault. I AGREE that Benoit SHOULD have had himself checked out. YES, BENOIT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL HEALTH. HOWEVER, The WWE should take some responsibility to watch out for the well being of their employees. 100% responsible? Hell no. 50%? Probably not. However, they should either offer, or require, some sort of annual checkup. WWE should be concerned for the health of its employees. They care about whether they're on drugs supposedly, so why not care about their general health as well in regards to how their occupation affects it. So to sum it up since you very well could be scanning this. It's not Vince's job to see that their employees are healthy....It's the wrestler's job. However, as an employer, the WWE should be concerned with the health of it's employees.

1) If you think the dumb fuck was aimed you, it may have been.

2) I never once said you said it was Vince's fault. But Alienoid sure was sound like it was everyone's fault but Benoit, and we all know Vince is an evil business man out of his and his alone.

3) Yeah, WWE should probably do something, then again American should have some sort of national health care...wait, Benoit's Canadian, it is Canada's fault now...wait no it isn't Canada has free health care, he has no excuse for not getting the check ups. Yes WWE should be concerned for their wrestlers. But it is ultimately the individauls repsoniciblity to take care of themselves and not go crazy and kill their family.

4) If I was merely scanning, then I wouldn't have a chance to find bad grammer and pick that apart too, just to further piss you off at my hypocracy when it comes to sentence structure and spelling.

[Dave Youell]

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? If the dumb fuck comment was directed towards me, feel free to reread what I've already said. I never once said this was Vince's fault. I AGREE that Benoit SHOULD have had himself checked out. YES, BENOIT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL HEALTH. HOWEVER, The WWE should take some responsibility to watch out for the well being of their employees. 100% responsible? Hell no. 50%? Probably not. However, they should either offer, or require, some sort of annual checkup. WWE should be concerned for the health of its employees. They care about whether they're on drugs supposedly, so why not care about their general health as well in regards to how their occupation affects it. So to sum it up since you very well could be scanning this. It's not Vince's job to see that their employees are healthy....It's the wrestler's job. However, as an employer, the WWE should be concerned with the health of it's employees.

They do have regular health checks, hence how they found out about MVP's dodgy heart, yes it's a knee jerk reaction to the Eddie thing, but at least they are doing something.

So find out about something in Benoit's case wouldn't of been done with an average physical, so unless they are handing out free catscans to the employees they are paying a pretty decent wage......

[What Would Kevin Do?]

ANYWHO.

I think I've argued from a legal standpoint enough. It doesn't really matter anyway, since Benoit will never appear in court (unless Nancy's parents try to sue the estate).

In the end, personally, I think a lot of people dropped the ball. In the end, Benoit put his body through what he did on his own free will. While I question whether or not he intended to do what he did, I don't question that this COULD have been avoided. I think moving on the fact that this WASN'T avoided is going to be a bigger issue than the murders themselves.

[IC Champion]

Canada is a great Nation.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool 1) If you think the dumb fuck was aimed you, it may have been. 2) I never once said you said it was Vince's fault. But Alienoid sure was sound like it was everyone's fault but Benoit, and we all know Vince is an evil business man out of his and his alone. 3) Yeah, WWE should probably do something, then again American should have some sort of national health care...wait, Benoit's Canadian, it is Canada's fault now...wait no it isn't Canada has free health care, he has no excuse for not getting the check ups. Yes WWE should be concerned for their wrestlers. But it is ultimately the individauls repsoniciblity to take care of themselves and not go crazy and kill their family. 4) If I was merely scanning, then I wouldn't have a chance to find bad grammer and pick that apart too, just to further piss you off at my hypocracy when it comes to sentence structure and spelling.

When you become a teacher, and I'm turning in a paper to you, I'll worry about my grammar. Anyway, you can't piss me off by pointing out grammar and spelling. I usually just view it as a weak arguement that's made by someone who has no other point he can make.

Anywho, you never stated that I said it was Vince's fault, but you did make the sarcastic reply about people saying it's Vince's fault while quoting me. Just making a reasonable inference.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by Instant Classic Canada is a great Nation.

I concur. I mean, if you can produce a wife and child killing machine like Benoit, you should really import them to China. You could make a killing marketing it as population control.

[IC Champion]

Then what will fat unattrachtive woman in America do when they want kids?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Instant Classic Then what will fat unattrachtive woman in America do when they want kids?

With the population in check, China will become an even more efficient country, and produce robots to fornicate with fat women, and impregnate them.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Totally off topic, but man, America needs to get into fucking shape.

[Danny Electric]

I don't know about Benoit's financial status, I'm betting it was healthy but it is a shame that the profession that gave him and his family a lavish lifestyle would eventually lead to his downfall.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool 2) I never once said you said it was Vince's fault. But Alienoid sure was sound like it was everyone's fault but Benoit, and we all know Vince is an evil business man out of his and his alone.

Actually, I never once said it was Vince's fault. I just said he should be looking after the health of his employees. No one is saying that anyone but Chris Benoit is the killer. This just sheds new light on it, and decreses (in some form) the responsibility for the crime Chris Benoit committed. A lot of that has to do with the professional wrestling business taking a hit, which reflects on Vince.

As WWKD said, this will be more about why something was not done to prevent this. And no, that is not ENTIRELY Chris Benoit's responsibility.

Also, I just read another article, and it addressed the possibility of legal action Michael Benoit could take against the WWE. Benoit said he was thinking things through at this time, or something to the extent. But the media is certainly out for Vince's blood, and Michael Benoit does not seem to disgusted by the idea.

[RGWhat316]

This does help me some. Not that I was in complete denial, but I wanted to believe that something that happened to Chris caused what happened that terrible weekend. From all the reports I heard and read, almost everyone who knew him, knew that he would never do anything like what happened. That is why I figured that something happened to him, to cause him to snap. But, if the head trauma really caused this to happen, then things will definitely change in wrestling as we know it. I also knew that steroids were not as much of a factor as the media was saying they were.

[BigDaddyCool]

Anyhow, I guess I'm going to have to adress the white elephant in the room everyone else is pretending isn't there. You are all just jealous because the Kliq is still alive and holding people down, while all the good guys are going crazy and killing their family, if not just dropping dead. Get over it, the Kliq is better.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? Totally off topic, but man, America needs to get into fucking shape.

I learned a statistic from Conan O'Brien that put the percentage of obese people in a particular state (I think it was Mississippi) at 30%.

If only Chris Benoit were American. Then the rope would have snapped. Fuck that, he would have gotten winded during the first two minutes of his debut match, and quit right then and there, and then get some fries.

[IC Champion]

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 I learned a statistic from Conan O'Brien that put the percentage of obese people in a particular state (I think it was Mississippi) at 30%. If only Chris Benoit were American. Then the rope would have snapped. Fuck that, he would have gotten winded during the first two minutes of his debut match, and quit right then and there, and then get some fries.

LOL.

[IC Champion]

We dont eat fries in Canada, we eat Poutine.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Or if he would have been a kliq member, he would have lost his smile, torn his quad, been a drunk, or just plain sucked enough to not be wrestling, and this would have never happened.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool Anyhow, I guess I'm going to have to adress the white elephant in the room everyone else is pretending isn't there. You are all just jealous because the Kliq is still alive and holding people down, while all the good guys are going crazy and killing their family, if not just dropping dead. Get over it, the Kliq is better.

Kevin Nash would have gotten lazy during the murder of his wife, and instead of killing her, would just put the chord around her throat and then let go (Jackknife style) and then give his son a Finger Poke of Doom. His son would have had Fragile X, though, and would have squished around the finger of Nash, and then he would go to court and prove he is not guilty with charts. Nash would get charged with fleeing the scene, though, caught by police when he injures his quad taking a step away from them.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I think Vince should run an angle where Shawn goes crazy from all the concussions and assaults randon people, and early killing his family.

[BigDaddyCool]

Yeah, sounds like some people are jealous because all their heros are dead. K4L

[IC Champion]

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? I think Vince should run an angle where Shawn goes crazy from all the concussions and assaults randon people, and early killing his family.

Wait....Didnt HBK take 4 years off in his prime, and only works 80 days a year now?

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 Kevin Nash would have gotten lazy during the murder of his wife, and instead of killing her, would just put the chord around her throat and then let go (Jackknife style) and then give his son a Finger Poke of Doom. His son would have had Fragile X, though, and would have squished around the finger of Nash, and then he would go to court and prove he is not guilty with charts. Nash would get charged with fleeing the scene, though, caught by police when he injures his quad taking a step away from them.

Wait...did I read that right, Fragile X gives you mutant powers of being able to turn you body liquid at will so you can squish around the dreaded finger poke of doom.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 As Loose Cannon said, it doesn't excuse Benoit. A sin is still a sin. If you're a spiritual person, then you really have to believe that Chris Benoit is rotting in Hell right now, unless God takes mercy on those who can't help themselves. It does remove the intent from the crime, though, and that is a fucking huge part of things. It was a sickening thought to image a competent Chris Benoit tying up his wife and then strangling her as she is defenseless, and then smothering his son out of cowardice, and then taking his own life so he doesn't have to face the consequences. That messed up the image of Chris Benoit as a person. Now he's a guy who should have stopped, but didn't realize he needed to, and not a single doctor, promoter, agent, fan, friend or family member spoke up. If Chris Benoit is guilty for what happened to his brain, then we were all, in ways, accomplices.

Most theologists would argue that acts commited by someone who was insane would not be held against them by God. As such, I'm a bit confused as to why you'd bring it up. The people who believe otherwise tend to not believe in mental illness and dismiss it anyway.

Then again, that seems to be the wrestling fanbase in a nutshell. Benoit did something horrible, yes, but he was most certainly sick. The Vicdin alone could have done that, as well as a couple other popular painkillers in sports. They don't warn you about that. In fact, there's no warning of correlation, except health professionals have started reporting it as a serious, and sadly common side effect.

What's funnier is the number of people who grieved for Eddie, a drug addict who chose to destroy his body. Drug addiction isn't even a real disease, it's a symptom of a weak will. Now we're hearing "Benoit decided to concuss himself...Fuck him." People complain that the One says he'll celebrate the death of Hogan, a man who has clearly played with his life. Owen Hart? We grieved, though nobody FORCED him up there or pushed him off.

If Benoit deserved what he got, so did Eddie and Owen and just about every other wrestler to have died, been injured or crippled, etc.

-EDIT- Whoops, fucked up and was replying in two windows. I'l stitch in the rest:

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 This might take some pressure off the steroid thing, unfortunately, but now the business itself, at its very core, is under question. Chris Benoit literally gave so much of himself to the industry, it killed him.

First let me point out I glossed over after a certain point. Too much back and forth.

Anyway, Steroids were, at the very least a contributing factor.

Originally Posted by Instant Classic Could it have been prevented had he simply gone to a doctor and had his head checked? Probably.

Overly simplistic. Since this is the course of multiple concussions, not a single injury, and not every concussion readily is obvious in a sport where people work through injuries. They're not readily obvious period, a lot of the time.

Originally Posted by Alienoid06 I agree with Loose Cannon. This is pretty much an argument based on political beliefs, so there's not too much point going back and forth. These are discussion boards, though. For the record, because I know a lot of people here are stupid, I'm not saying that Benoit is not a killer. If he didn't kill himself, he should have been tried and convicted for manslaughter. That's all I'm saying it is, though...manslaughter. Still fucking awful, but in the law's eye, it is a step down. This is a good thing for those who wanted to remember Chris Benoit's career, without mashing it up with his personal life, because it means Chris Benoit was not a cold-blooded killer. A killer? Unfortunately for all involved, yes, but his crime was under diminished capacity. What we are essentially arguing is whether there should be diminished capacity, and whether or not there should be layers in the law, which is politics, and pointless to get into here.

He should have, and would have been tried for murder. The extreme malice in the killings could likely get him the strongest murder charges. Beyond that, being insane is a defense, not a means to trial itself. If he wasn't in his mind at the time, that would be a defensive statement.

Originally Posted by Instant Classic No, but if he had a concussion, I'm going to take a wild guess, and say he knew he did, I'm gonna say that before he went crazy, his head probably hurt alot, due to head aches, going back years even. Now I would just assume someone with a concussion in a contact sport of any kind would go see a doctor about this, and get a CAT scan. I'm guessing that he didn't. I'm guessing that his concussions went undiagnosed, I mean, your brain doesn't begin to resemble that of an 85 year old Alzheimer over night, this was something that happened over time. I'm going to have to say that he suffered from concussions and head aches for quiet sometime. And if you don't think someone can go crazy from concussions, do some research. And, also had you been paying any attention at all Alienoid, you would know that some of his friends knew something was wrong with him, and that he wasn't normal.

Yes. Something happened over time. Damage can accrue in subtle ways.

Originally Posted by Instant Classic Maybe he should have took some time off, or treated his concussions instead of just continuing to wrestle because it's your life, and it's what you live for. Concussions are serious business, and every year someone in a pro sport has their career ended from just a couple concussions. And anyone knows that undiagnosed or untreated concussions have serious consuquences, such as insanity, or depression. So again, I fail to see how this is anyone's fault other than Benoit himself.

Do you always know all the outcomes of the things you participate in? I'm just curious. And I'm not saying "Benoit didn't do it" or "It wasn't his fault," But we're talking mental illness.

[BigDaddyCool]

I would like to point out that KK didn't argue anything I said, therefore he must agree with it. So that means I'm right. In your faces, everyone.

[IC Champion]

Was there a point to any of that, or just to let me and Alienoid know that we're both wrong?

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by Instant Classic Was there a point to any of that, or just to let me and Alienoid know that we're both wrong?

And to let me know I'm right because he can't find fault or agrees.

[Ninti the Mad]

Originally Posted by Pepsi Man So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?

Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.

[Pepsi Man]

Originally Posted by Ninti the Mad Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.

Bartenders and friends are not the same thing, and I would just like to say that I personally disagree with that anyway. Anyone legally allowed to drive in the first place should be educated on the results of drunk driving enough to be held responsible for letting themselves get into such a situation.

[Jura]

"The frontal lobe syndrome is said to be present when an individual who is previously capable of judgment and sustained application and organization of his life becomes aimless and improvident, and may lose tact, sensitivity, and self-control.
These patients may demonstrate a diminution of spontaneous activity, a lack of drive, an inability to plan ahead, a lack of concern, and possible bouts of restlessness and aimless, uncoordinated behavior."

That sounds like me! I think have FLS. I got hit in the head by a car backing into me when i was a child.

[Ninti the Mad]

Originally Posted by Pepsi Man Bartenders and friends are not the same thing, and I would just like to say that I personally disagree with that anyway. Anyone legally allowed to drive in the first place should be educated on the results of drunk driving enough to be held responsible for letting themselves get into such a situation.

There are still laws on it no matter how you look at it.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by Ninti the Mad Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.

I'm assuming you mean the bar staff, not the patrons.

[Pepsi Man]

Originally Posted by Ninti the Mad There are still laws on it no matter how you look at it.

Sure, there are laws, but random people/friends are still different from staff.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Instant Classic Was there a point to any of that, or just to let me and Alienoid know that we're both wrong?

I'd say that pointing out the logical fallacies in both your cases was a point in and of itself. Unfortunately, you're a bit too baked to get that.

Or the point in chastising the IWC. I suppose the largest single point there was too obvious to notice.

Now, do you have a point, or are you just asking in order to deflect the number of counts upon which you were called?

BDC, I don't remember what you posted, except to blame Canadia.

On that, I agree. Stupid wrestling junkies.