Owen Hart.

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by 311 I'm not really sure what you mean by 'overrated.' Owen is Owen. He was never 'the' champ. He was mid-card talent at best. He could get around the ring with the best of them, yes, but he was never anything special. (In my opinion) I just always thought he was thought of and remembred as exactly what he was. However, he did contribute to shows ever time he was on them, and he's had some fantastic matches. (See the cage match posted.) Better than Bret? That would probably start another flame war.

I have to say, not knowing about kayfabe and all that, Owen hart was my most hated wrestler ever. I just couldn't stand him...him and shawn michaels.

So for that reason, plus that he put on great matches, I don't feel he was over rated

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by DarthTeedious I always laugh whenver I hear this. What "gimmick" is there behind "The Game?" You know how that would have changed HHH's career? His theme song would be different and people wouldn't hold up "Game Over" signs when they wanted him to lose, or "Game Not Over" signs when he returns from an injury. Owen, had he not died, would have been called "The Game" Owen Hart and would have gone on being Owen Hart. I fail to see exactly what "gimmick" goes along with being called "The Game." Honestly I always thought "The Game" was a dumbass thing to be called anyways.

The whole thing about the name "the game" came about in a promo. Someone said (maybe Austin) "This is not a game" and HHH's reply was along the lines of "screw that, I am the game." So it was just luck the way the name came about. not so sure about the gimmick tho (whatever the hell that is?!)

[Rob]

So what people are trying to say is that if Owen Hart didn't die, he wouldn't have had fucking awesome matches with Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio, The Rock and Chris Jericho? And all of them became world champions.

As for him being overrated - go find some pre 1991 stuff or just watch the Bret vs. Owen matches until your heart is content.

[Marc the Smark]

Originally Posted by 311 He was never 'the' champ. He was mid-card talent at best. He could get around the ring with the best of them, yes, but he was never anything special. (In my opinion)

He was better than Sid Justice, and they made HIM the champion.... Owen could've been champ, too.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Originally Posted by DarthTeedious Well said. I particularly find myself annoyed with the people who find fault with Vince and the company for continuing the PPV. The people in attendance paid for a show, they had a right to expect one, and would have been well within their rights to leave if they felt it appropriate. Owen was a performer with a great love of the business, and in any performance situation "the show must go on." But too many people can't accept that some things are just terrible, senseless mistakes, and must find a way to fix blame. It saddens me and damages Owen's memory that so many people must point fingers.

They continued the show that involved speeding Vince out in a stretcher and ambulance. After the fall.

They never told the live audience what went down. They didnt know a man had died. I am sure had they known, many would have also second guessed such a decision as to continue a ppv.
That's the wwe way of allowing themselves to go on with the show guilt-free for just a little while all for the green.
It's just the double standards...had it been a child of Vince, would the show go on? I doubt it.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Owen was easily a main event level talent. And he should have been champ.

There were plenty of eras that Owen should have remained in the main event scene. Mid 90's to be sure, and had their not been so much political BS occuring, after Montreal as well.

Owen as an athlete was fucking awesome, and imo, he picked up on any style of wrestling better than anyone I have watched. In many ways he was better then Bret in the ring.

You know what's overrated? Saying somebody is overrated due to their passing. Owen was one of the premier talents in the business while alive.
Not really his fault there were some pretty stupid people around that never picked up on that.

[El Fangel]

All I have to say is that I think, that Owen was a hell of a performer, and would have wanted the show to go on.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. They never told the live audience what went down. They didnt know a man had died. I am sure had they known, many would have also second guessed such a decision as to continue a ppv. That's the wwe way of allowing themselves to go on with the show guilt-free for just a little while all for the green. It's just the double standards...had it been a child of Vince, would the show go on? I doubt it.

We can what-if all night long. I'm working on what did happen.

There were children in that audience. Would you come out and say to them "we're calling the show off because you just saw a man die?" I'm sure it was tough enough just for the parents in attendance to sit their kids down later and tell them what had happened; they had the right to deal with it in the way of their choosing. Had Howard Finkel or some equivalent come out and said "Owen's dead, go home" it would have caused serious confusion, as well as emotional shock. By finishing the show, they avoided making a bad situation worse. Was it the morally correct thing to do? That's an opinion. Would Vince have halted the show if Shane or Stephanie had died? Pure speculation. It's the decision I would have made.

[Impact!]

If he hadn't of died he would have gone to WCW and become NWOwen

[lort]

I always think after-Montreal they lost a perfect opportunity to put Owen into a major storyline.

Instead he wore Yellow and Black, said "Time for a Change" and joined the Nation.

[NeanderCarl]

To say he is the subject of a lot of internet gushing and fawning is true.

But I have to contest the claims that he never had the potential to go beyond midcard. Now, I'm not saying Owen would have ever had a lengthy run with the title, but it is not out of the question to consider that Owen could have conducted a main event feud, and/or had a caretaker reign with the big belt. Let's face it, there have been periods in the time since Owen's demise when WWE was crying out for a credible opponent for their champion of the moment. Owen could have filled that role, heel or face, more than adequately.

He's not 'the best wrestler never to hold the WWF/WCW World title' (my pick for that crown is Curt Hennig or maybe DiBiase) but he was more adaptable than simply just a midcarder.

If a bum like Bradshaw can get over in the main event after a decade of jobbing, then Owen certainly could have. All it would have taken was the right demeanor and the right storyline at the right time. No mean feat, but you can't write it off either. As it is purely speculation, and we'll never know, does it really matter?

And if people do genuinely believe Owen was due to be the "next Austin" or any other number of (probably) misjudged predictions, why knock him off their pedestals?

[Jeritron]

He had the potential to get the eventual push, kinda like HHH but on a lower level.

With all the people around him being pushed, he would have gotten his due.

I still maintain that the storyline would have been excellent had he been the culprite in the Who Hit Austin storyline.

But it's all pointless really. Owen was Owen and he did great things. I say let people believe what they want to believe about where he would have gone with his career, but it matters very little since his legacy is enough to be remembered for already. I'm sure his family and friends aren't worried about what kind of push he would have recieved, they just want their loved one back. Often times we view these great performers as something more or less than normal, but they're people. I think we should just be happy with what we got and to me it's always kinda seemed kinda off putting for people (nobody in specific) to say "I wish Owen was still around, he'd have great matches and finally have gotten a push". That's not really the right line of thinking when theres a family and children who wish he was still around so he could be the man they knew and loved. And that's not kayfabe, it's a true life heartbreaking swerve.

[Rob]

No way would have been a huge star in the level Rock, Taker and Austin. I'd put HHH, Cena and Foley a level below those guys but he could have easily been on the level of Jericho, Benoit, Michaels, Misterio, etc just purely on the quality of matches he would have had with those guys. Remember for like a 3 year spell, those guys couldn't have anyless less than a *** match. Owen was in their level of worker.

[AdrianM]

Originally Posted by Rob No way would have been a huge star in the level Rock, Taker and Austin. I'd put HHH, Cena and Foley a level below those guys but he could have easily been on the level of Jericho, Benoit, Michaels, Misterio, etc just purely on the quality of matches he would have had with those guys. Remember for like a 3 year spell, those guys couldn't have anyless less than a *** match. Owen was in their level of worker.

curious as to how you haven't put HBK on the same level as Taker. I would generally consider Rock and Austin to be top tier with taker and michaels on a fairly similar position.

Anyway, just an aside note

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by AdrianM curious as to how you haven't put HBK on the same level as Taker. I would generally consider Rock and Austin to be top tier with taker and michaels on a fairly similar position. Anyway, just an aside note

The entire company has never rotated around Michaels the way it has around Rock, Austin, and Taker. He's been the center and the champion, but he never dominated the entire WWF/E like those other 3 did.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by AdrianM curious as to how you haven't put HBK on the same level as Taker. I would generally consider Rock and Austin to be top tier with taker and michaels on a fairly similar position. Anyway, just an aside note

Taker drew good money on top as champion. Michaels didn't. Undertaker is a bigger household name than Michaels.

[Jeritron]

Originally Posted by Rob Taker drew good money on top as champion. Michaels didn't. Undertaker is a bigger household name than Michaels.

Perhaps but you can't group him with undercard guys and not up with HHH and Foley.
As for the drawing of money, he was champion at a time when the company was in the gutter. Maybe overall he wasn't drawing money as big as the champion of the company when the overall product was big, but when you think about it he was the only draw on the card when champion in 96. What else did the company or the fans have other than the string of title defenses of HBK in 1996? He was huge for them at a time period where Bret was out of action, Austin wasn't quite over yet, and Hall and Nash were gone.
The occasions in which Taker was champion were at times when the product was on top, or in 97 when the product was on the rise and putting on a more quality show.

I know you have more facts than me, but I'm sure Michaels was drawing as champion in his third reign in 97-98 when he was leader of Degeneration X. And his main event with Austin, which as over as Austin was, was unquestionably instrumental in his skyrocketing popularity.
Michaels is a pretty well known name. He's HBK. He's of course not on the level of Austin and Rock, or not the household name that is the Undertaker, but he's a pretty big name.
I think it's a blatant misgrouping if you put him on par with Benoit and Jericho(circa2000) and rank him below HHH.

I'm not questioning your motives, but you do seem to dislike HBK immensely.

[Zen v.W.o.]

It's like this:

Austin/Hogan/Piper
Rock
Bret/Taker/HBK/Savage
and then the rest...

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Jeritron Perhaps but you can't group him with undercard guys and not up with HHH and Foley. As for the drawing of money, he was champion at a time when the company was in the gutter. Maybe overall he wasn't drawing money as big as the champion of the company when the overall product was big, but when you think about it he was the only draw on the card when champion in 96. What else did the company or the fans have other than the string of title defenses of HBK in 1996? He was huge for them at a time period where Bret was out of action, Austin wasn't quite over yet, and Hall and Nash were gone. The occasions in which Taker was champion were at times when the product was on top, or in 97 when the product was on the rise and putting on a more quality show. I know you have more facts than me, but I'm sure Michaels was drawing as champion in his third reign in 97-98 when he was leader of Degeneration X. And his main event with Austin, which as over as Austin was, was unquestionably instrumental in his skyrocketing popularity. Michaels is a pretty well known name. He's HBK. He's of course not on the level of Austin and Rock, or not the household name that is the Undertaker, but he's a pretty big name. I think it's a blatant misgrouping if you put him on par with Benoit and Jericho(circa2000) and rank him below HHH. I'm not questioning your motives, but you do seem to dislike HBK immensely.

HHH and Foley drew far better on top. Michaels was champ during a bad time yes. So was Bret Hart and he drew fine. Michaels was also the champ after he came back and the numbers still weren't any better from when he won the title to when he lost it.

During his DX era, Michaels barely worked. He did 3 PPVs and next to no TV or house shows. 2 of those PPV's, the draws were Austin and Tyson.

As for me hating him, I don't hate anyone. And you have obviously missed all my posts over the last few years when I did nothing but praise his work since his comeback.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. It's like this: Austin/Hogan/Piper Rock Bret/Taker/HBK/Savage and then the rest...

Are you serious? Rock drew more money in his best year than Piper has ever. And he also drew more money in a short run than Hogan did in his entire career.

[Jeritron]

Originally Posted by Rob HHH and Foley drew far better on top. Michaels was champ during a bad time yes. So was Bret Hart and he drew fine. Michaels was also the champ after he came back and the numbers still weren't any better from when he won the title to when he lost it. During his DX era, Michaels barely worked. He did 3 PPVs and next to no TV or house shows. 2 of those PPV's, the draws were Austin and Tyson. As for me hating him, I don't hate anyone. And you have obviously missed all my posts over the last few years when I did nothing but praise his work since his comeback.

Okay, first of all Bret had a supporting cast and the product was still the top wrestling promotion. Flash forward to right when Bret dropped the belt and took time off. Coincidentally, same exact time the nWo was on the rise and WCW became far and away the top wrestling promotion above the WWF. At this time period, Bret was out of action, Stone Cold had yet to emerge, and Hall and Nash had just flown the coupe.
Bret simply had a hotter product with a better roster below him and no stron compettition.
Shawn Michaels was carrying the weight of the whole promotion at that time basically. Nothing against these wrestlers, but he was making title defenses against Vader, Sid, Bulldog and a new, gimmicky Mankind.
The show just wasn't able to stack up and Shawn was it's only true strength. He was drawing. If they didn't have Shawn, they'd have been out of business that year.

As for HHH and Mankind, they were great champions and I'm not taking anything away from them. But they became champions during the height of the attitude era. In professional wrestling, when a promotion is hot it's hot. The ratings weren't going to suddenly drop off sharply due to new champions. They were good, but they weren't the bread and butter of the promotion at the time. Rock Austin and others were still coasting along and the attitude era was hot. In other words, they were over and entertaining champions and were able to maintain the draw, but people were coming to the arenas to see WWF Attitude, not them specifically.
It should be noted that, coincidentally, things cooled off a bit when HHH first won the title and he was a bit shaky at first. It was the Rock and Austin still drawing the money, along with the whole product and it took a while for him to get over. He was a top antagonist to compliment the big money face challengers.
Foley was a short time champion. He wasn't the top guy but rather a supporting character for the title scene preparing The Rock for Steve Austin, the top guy.

HBK held the title for nearly a year and defended against a string of opponents who wanted a crack at the top guy.

There's more that goes into how successful and over a champion is rather than just the superficial fact of "the company was in better shape while ___ was champion rather than ___" It has a lot to do with various things and the big picture.

[Loose Cannon]

I see your point, but you keep putting everything on external factors. He was a terrible draw because of this situation over here and that situation over there. If people like who's on top, they will watch the show no matter how shitty the card might be. You need to point the fingers at the guy on top and not the situations around him. He can control his own situation and not others.

[Jeritron]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon I see your point, but you keep putting everything on external factors. He was a terrible draw because of this situation over here and that situation over there. If people like who's on top, they will watch the show no matter how shitty the card might be. You need to point the fingers at the guy on top and not the situations around him. He can control his own situation and not others.

Not everybodys Austin or Hogan. Doesn't mean they can't be solid draws. On paper Shawn wasn't a huge draw in 96, but in reality he was doing big things for that company.
He's also pretty well known, to adress the other accusation that he's not a big name. Once again, he's not Hogan or Austin, but he's up there.
The company was just overall shit and it's unfair to say that doesn't matter because he should draw the same anyways. Come on now.

[The One]

Originally Posted by Jordan X Owen was going to get the gimmick of "The Game" that eventually went to Triple H. Owen could have been a main event draw, and would have been had he not died. I do not think he was overrated he was fantastic in every way that a wrestler needs to be.

I just need to get this out right now. You're fucking reatdred if you think that. Owen was going to do the Blue Blazer until his contract ran out (which it was coming up soon anyway, infact the IC Title run he was going to begin that night was a send off for him). Also, while he had managed to get the Blue Blazer gimmick over, let's remember that him doing that gimmick was considered a punishment for him being in the "dog house" in response to him refusing to do the Debra/Jarrett love triangle thing. So let's all pull this fucking bullshit, no marrit what so ever bullshit out of the conversation right now. He wasn't going to be "The Game" infact Hunter was already a heel by that point, and while he hadn't begun refering to himself as "The Game" the character was already in motion. So let's stop playing this dumbass game, people need to realise that while Owen was a good talent or whatever (personally found him, like his brother, to be as borring as watching shit sink) he was NEVER in line to win the Title. His name was never brought up as a potential flagship of the company. He wasn't going to win the title, nor should he ever have. Just like Dean Malenko, an INCREDIBLE talent, majorly over in several promotions, was just not ever in the play pen of serious World Title contenders.

The End.

[FakeLaser]

Originally Posted by Rob So what people are trying to say is that if Owen Hart didn't die, he wouldn't have had fucking awesome matches with Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio, The Rock and Chris Jericho? And all of them became world champions. As for him being overrated - go find some pre 1991 stuff or just watch the Bret vs. Owen matches until your heart is content.

Thank you.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Originally Posted by Rob Are you serious? Rock drew more money in his best year than Piper has ever. And he also drew more money in a short run than Hogan did in his entire career.

Rob, you got those facts very wrong buddy.

In a short run, whatever the rock made doesnt touch what Hogan made during his entire run. WTF.

In fact, I dont credit the rock with that much, because in his time, everything was easy for him. He became big when wrestling was at it's highest peak, because of Austin, and the fact wrestling as a whole was great to watch due to the fact both companies, including ecw, were putting on fantastic programming.
I actually give more credit to guys like Taker, Bret and HBK for holding down a foundation that needed to stay afloat during hard times, then for the rock to basically ride the wave of momentum Austin surged it to.

Hogan made wrestling what it is, for everyone to follow. Amd without that ultimate villain, who by the way was Piper, Hogan doesnt become as big as he is either. Because whether you want to admit it or not, Hogan was drawing big numbers from fans wanting to see Piper get his ass handed to him by the Immortal one.

The Rock has made it big outside of the business in movies, but those people dont give a shit about what he's done in wrestling. He's gained a different audience. In the wrestling industry, The Rock is no higher than Hogan, Austin, Piper, or Andre as a matter of fact.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Originally Posted by The One I just need to get this out right now. You're fucking reatdred if you think that. Owen was going to do the Blue Blazer until his contract ran out (which it was coming up soon anyway, infact the IC Title run he was going to begin that night was a send off for him). Also, while he had managed to get the Blue Blazer gimmick over, let's remember that him doing that gimmick was considered a punishment for him being in the "dog house" in response to him refusing to do the Debra/Jarrett love triangle thing. So let's all pull this fucking bullshit, no marrit what so ever bullshit out of the conversation right now. He wasn't going to be "The Game" infact Hunter was already a heel by that point, and while he hadn't begun refering to himself as "The Game" the character was already in motion. So let's stop playing this dumbass game, people need to realise that while Owen was a good talent or whatever (personally found him, like his brother, to be as borring as watching shit sink) he was NEVER in line to win the Title. His name was never brought up as a potential flagship of the company. He wasn't going to win the title, nor should he ever have. Just like Dean Malenko, an INCREDIBLE talent, majorly over in several promotions, was just not ever in the play pen of serious World Title contenders. The End.

Why not? He was far better than for example, HHH.

[NeanderCarl]

People always use the "Piper had to be a great heel for Hogan to draw as a great face" line, but the Hogan/Piper run was pretty short, and while Piper was off having boxing matches and making movies, Hogan continued to draw bigger and better than ever.

Piper was important to the "kick start", no doubt, but too many people try to give Piper full credit for the creation of Hogan. Hogan was already the fastest rising, biggest drawing name in the business (bar maybe Bruno) before he ever went to work for Vince Jr. while in the AWA.

As for Undertaker... he is a level above Michaels. Taker was one half of the main event of the biggest drawing SummerSlam of all time, the "Highway To Hell".

[NeanderCarl]

By the way, why would WWE give Owen Hart an Intercontinental title run as a "send off" in the middle of the Monday Night Wars? Whilst he was performing a "punishment gimmick" too... some kind of punishment!

They were far too petty to do that.

[The One]

Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. Why not? He was far better than for example, HHH.

LMAO! Boy there is just no limit to how far you will get the collective dick of the Hart family down your throat is there? Man if I was still swinging gay, I'd totally be able to jerk off to your posts as erotic fiction.

[Xero]

That is a pretty fucking retarded claim.

[Kane Knight]

Come on, Guys, it's Zen. Nobody takes him seriously on anything related to Canada or Nirvana.

[The One]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Come on, Guys, it's Zen. Nobody takes him seriously on anything related to Canada or Nirvana.

[Destor]

Wow.

[Destor]

Good thing Zen keeps the Hart cock in his mouth. He needs his hands free.

[YOUR Hero]

I believe The One is correct on everything he said EXCEPT the IC title run.

BTW, Owen was my favourite wrestler, loved him when he was a high flyer, loved with when he came back after knee surgury as a technical wreslter. Loved his ring work, loved his off beat style. I would have liked to see him (as my favourite) get a title run, but that wasn't in the cards... even if he was the King of H(e)arts.

[Zen v.W.o.]

I think it's pretty obvious Owen was far better than HHH. Take a look at them during their time together, and while Hunter was doing nothing at all memorable, Owen was putting on the best tag matches and the best singles matches not involving either Bret or HBK. And when Hunter started to make his rise up the ranks, guess who he dealt with? Owen Hart. Owen made Hunter look better in the ring and out of the ring.

As a wrestler there isnt a comparison. As a performer, sure you can compare.
But there's a rather substantial divide in terms of talent among Owen and Hunter as wrestlers.

HHH has basically been lucky in that he got to carry HBK's ballsack for a while, otherwise he'd still be toiling in hell as an american blueblood. After that, he worked with better talents then he was, but had HBK's political power to help him from having to job out to them.

And then, he fucking gets with the boss' daughter in order to keep himself on top of cards, where he has no reason being for such an extended amount of time. He has 10 title reigns, and about 8 or so too many.

The guy is one of the most overrated sacks of shit the business has ever seen.

[Jeritron]

I'm tuning up the band...

[redoneja]

Wow this level of fanboyism is really adding some suckitude to this place.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. Rob, you got those facts very wrong buddy. In a short run, whatever the rock made doesnt touch what Hogan made during his entire run. WTF.

Sorry but you are wrong. Rock had at least 3 straight years of making 8 million dollars plus. Only Austin made more money in one year.

In fact, I dont credit the rock with that much, because in his time, everything was easy for him. He became big when wrestling was at it's highest peak, because of Austin, and the fact wrestling as a whole was great to watch due to the fact both companies, including ecw, were putting on fantastic programming.

Rocky was getting over before WWF boomed. There weren't even beating WCW in the ratings when he was getting over.

I actually give more credit to guys like Taker, Bret and HBK for holding down a foundation that needed to stay afloat during hard times, then for the rock to basically ride the wave of momentum Austin surged it to. Hogan made wrestling what it is, for everyone to follow. Amd without that ultimate villain, who by the way was Piper, Hogan doesnt become as big as he is either. Because whether you want to admit it or not, Hogan was drawing big numbers from fans wanting to see Piper get his ass handed to him by the Immortal one.

You can give credit to who you want. Nobody is denying they were big stars. But Rock made mega money. Look at the shows he headlined. Massive attendances, massive PPV buys, massive ratings. Best selling merch.

The Rock has made it big outside of the business in movies, but those people dont give a shit about what he's done in wrestling. He's gained a different audience. In the wrestling industry, The Rock is no higher than Hogan, Austin, Piper, or Andre as a matter of fact.

Average joe might not care what he did in wrestling but that doesn't mean he wasn't one of the 3 biggest draws in history. Only Austin beats him and only Hogan comes close. Piper and Andre? Don't make me laugh. If Rocky came back tomorrow, his name only would add a minimum of 200,000 buys to the next PPV. Piper's wouldn't add anything. That's already been proven. Andre might since it would be impressive if anyone came back from the day. Rock gained a different audience? Piss off dude. It's his wrestling fans PLUS new fans.

Seriously, I like you and all but this has to be a joke if you really think what you are saying.