TPWW Forums  

Go Back   TPWW Forums > w r e s t l i n g > wrestling forum
Reload this Page QUESTION - Could ECW work as a "niche'd" show? (i.e. devoted to Cruiserweights, etc.)
Register Members List Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-03-2009, 06:16 PM   #1
Heyman
Father of Hinduship
 
Heyman's Avatar
 
Posts: 21,083
Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedamndest View Post
One of the things ECW has been able to do is have guys compete with their peers rather than bring in a new guy who would squash jobbers and then get beaten down by The Undertaker or HHH and then finally end up as a jobber himself. It really does bring out the best of the new guys rather than just shove a new guy into the spotlight. It lets them develop naturally.


As far as its ratings, it doesn't have the star power of a Raw or Smackdown, but it isn't designed to. That's one of the reasons you couldn't fit all of the new guys on to the main show. There is just too much star power there. They would never get noticed. But when you do get guys coming up to Raw, fans are already familiar with them so they aren't overlooked. They get reactions.
I agree with a lot of what you said, and I definitely see your point of view, but I still think that things can be handled a LOT better. Whether people want to admit it or not, being a World Heavyweight Champion on RAW has 10x more significance than being a World Heavyweight Champion on Smackdown.

Being a World Champion on Smackdown isn't that much more prestigious than what it would have been like to be an Intercontinental Champion 10 years ago.

In the last 5+ years, the WWE hasn't been able to create successful and legitimate main-event superstars. The reason for this, is that NONE OF THESE GUYS have made a main-event impact on the show that matters most: RAW.

Why do think a guy like Ken Kennedy never panned out? Whatever happened to Carlitto's promise? Or Shelton Benjamin's? Why do you think guys like John Morrison never get popped? Does anyone really expect anything to happen with Kofi Kingston (on RAW), with guys like Cena, Orton, HHH, and HBK there?

Has Jack Swagger done ANYTHING of significance on RAW? If not, then wouldn't you agree that him leaving ECW has done ECW more harm than it's done in bolstering RAW?
Heyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 06:21 PM   #2
Juan
Doin' It Right
 
Juan's Avatar
 
Posts: 35,461
Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Whether people want to admit it or not, being a World Heavyweight Champion on RAW has 10x more significance than being a World Heavyweight Champion on Smackdown.
It's this mentality by a large portion of wrestling fans that is hurting ECW and SD more than anything.
Juan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 06:35 PM   #3
Heyman
Father of Hinduship
 
Heyman's Avatar
 
Posts: 21,083
Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
It's this mentality by a large portion of wrestling fans that is hurting ECW and SD more than anything.
???

That's an absurd comment.

How about the fact that the WWE THEMSELVES make the RAW World title be made to look far more prestigious which is WHY the marks think as such.

There's a reason why guys like Jeff Hardy and CM Punk have been world champions on Smackdown, but not on RAW.

You are completely and utterly delusional if you think that the WWE doesn't position the RAW Heavyweight title to be far more prestigious than the Smackdown Heavyweight title.
Heyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 06:39 PM   #4
Juan
Doin' It Right
 
Juan's Avatar
 
Posts: 35,461
Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Juan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
???

That's an absurd comment.

How about the fact that the WWE THEMSELVES make the RAW World title be made to look far more prestigious which is WHY the marks think as such.

There's a reason why guys like Jeff Hardy and CM Punk have been world champions on Smackdown, but not on RAW.

You are completely and utterly delusional if you think that the WWE doesn't position the RAW Heavyweight title to be far more prestigious than the Smackdown Heavyweight title.
I see what you're saying, but just because WWE says it is, doesn't mean you have to fall in line and accept it.

In my mind, CM Punk is just as prestigious a champion as John Cena and Randy Orton. It's all in the way you watch these shows.

By your logic, Batista, Edge and the Undertaker rank lower as champions than John Cena and Randy Orton. You can chose to accept that as fact, but I just don't see it that way.

WWE also tells me that John Cena is one of the best wrestlers ever, doesn't mean I have to believe it or accept it.
Last edited by Juan; 11-03-2009 at 06:42 PM.
Juan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 06:57 PM   #5
Heyman
Father of Hinduship
 
Heyman's Avatar
 
Posts: 21,083
Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
I see what you're saying, but just because WWE says it is, doesn't mean you have to fall in line and accept it.

In my mind, CM Punk is just as prestigious a champion as John Cena and Randy Orton. It's all in the way you watch these shows.

By your logic, Batista, Edge and the Undertaker rank lower as champions than John Cena and Randy Orton. You can chose to accept that as fact, but I just don't see it that way.

WWE also tells me that John Cena is one of the best wrestlers ever, doesn't mean I have to believe it or accept it.
Batista and Undertaker have both been the #1 guy in the company at some point throughout their careers (i.e. Bats in 05', and Taker back in his day), and so of course, they would never be perceived by the fans as being 'lower ranked champions.'


I guess the ultimate point I'm making is this: RAW is still being pegged as the #1 show, while a guy like Triple H is still being pegged as the absolute best in the business (in an indirect way). It would be MUCH better for a guy like CM Punk to actually get a clean victory over a guy like Triple H in a big PPV main-event at some point.

At some point - it would be awesome to push a guy like CM Punk in the same manner that John Cena and Dave Batista were. That's all I'm saying.

Until that happens, Punk will never become the star, or achieve the credibility, that the WWE wants. This goes for ANY young and promising star in the WWE.
Heyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 01:21 AM   #6
DAMN iNATOR
RIP SABU
 
DAMN iNATOR's Avatar
 
Posts: 35,585
DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Batista and Undertaker have both been the #1 guy in the company at some point throughout their careers (i.e. Bats in 05', and Taker back in his day), and so of course, they would never be perceived by the fans as being 'lower ranked champions.'


I guess the ultimate point I'm making is this: RAW is still being pegged as the #1 show, while a guy like Triple H is still being pegged as the absolute best in the business (in an indirect way). It would be MUCH better for a guy like CM Punk to actually get a clean victory over a guy like Triple H in a big PPV main-event at some point.

At some point - it would be awesome to push a guy like CM Punk in the same manner that John Cena and Dave Batista were. That's all I'm saying.

Until that happens, Punk will never become the star, or achieve the credibility, that the WWE wants. This goes for ANY young and promising star in the WWE.
Uh, hello? Undertaker is the top guy on SD! right now, and I know your view is that the big gold World Heavyweight Championship means more prestige for guys who have held it while on RAW, presumably because that's where Eric Bischoff first introduced it as a main event title in the WWE.

However, (NEVER thought I'd see myself type this next part) I must agree with Juan that it doesn't really matter which show holds the WWE title and which one holds the World Heavyweight title. By using your very same logic as a devil's advocate thing here, I could, although, inaccurately, biasedly (if that's even a word) say that the World Heavyweight Championship is more prestigious on SD! because the first time it was held by someone on SD! it wasn't awarded to them, the way Triple H's title was by Bischoff. Doesn't make it true.

When you take a good hard look at who was on what brands when they won the World title, I think you'd have to admit that your statement that the World title is more prestigious on RAW than on SD! is utterly ridiculous.
DAMN iNATOR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2009, 02:29 AM   #7
Heyman
Father of Hinduship
 
Heyman's Avatar
 
Posts: 21,083
Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
Uh, hello? Undertaker is the top guy on SD! right now, and I know your view is that the big gold World Heavyweight Championship means more prestige for guys who have held it while on RAW, presumably because that's where Eric Bischoff first introduced it as a main event title in the WWE.
No. My view is that the RAW Heavyweight Championship is more prestigious than that of Smackdown's, due to the way that the WWE themselves have positioned it.

Why do you think the WWE moved Jeff Hardy over to Smackdown, as opposed to letting him stay on RAW back in 2008? Why do you think guys like Edge, Big Show (post 2003), Booker T, RVD, Rey Mysterio, etc. all become world champions on shows OTHER than RAW?

Why do you think that for most Wrestlemania's, the RAW main-event is the final match on the card? (and that whenever Smackdown has the 'final title match' on the card, it always involves Undertaker winning?).


Quote:
However, (NEVER thought I'd see myself type this next part) I must agree with Juan that it doesn't really matter which show holds the WWE title and which one holds the World Heavyweight title. By using your very same logic as a devil's advocate thing here, I could, although, inaccurately, biasedly (if that's even a word) say that the World Heavyweight Championship is more prestigious on SD! because the first time it was held by someone on SD! it wasn't awarded to them, the way Triple H's title was by Bischoff. Doesn't make it true.

When you take a good hard look at who was on what brands when they won the World title, I think you'd have to admit that your statement that the World title is more prestigious on RAW than on SD! is utterly ridiculous.
RAW is the clear cut #1 show and the World title (whichever World title it is) is always THE #1 belt whenever it is on RAW. Period.

As much as we want guys like Jeff Hardy, CM Punk, etc. to be seen in the same light as Cena, Orton, Batista, and Triple H, the WWE does see them as such....and does not regard them as such.


THIS is what needs to be changed in my opinion.

Winning a world title does not hold as much significance nowadays as it once did....especially if this world title victory comes on Smackdown (CM Punk), ECW (Christian), or even on RAW if one is positioned as a transitional champ (Jericho). The one TRUE thing that really matters, is if you are pushed as THE #1 guy in the company (and this is no longer synonymous with being world champ).

The ONLY way a guy be a legit #1 guy in the company right now (i.e. the "face" of the company), is if they have a lengthy World Heavyweight title reign......on RAW.....AND a 100% clean victory is obtained over Triple H.

This is why guys like John Cena and Dave Batista became as big as they did. It's also one reason why Chris Benoit's victory in 2004 was so huge (although unfortunately for Benoit, he was pushed as a transitional champ).

It is also the reason why Edge, as many World titles as he's won, and as much of the man that he is, has NEVER been considered to be the "#1 guy in the company" at any point in his career. I truly hope that changes within the next few years.
Heyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 07:10 PM   #8
thedamndest
A Property of Matter
 
thedamndest's Avatar
 
Posts: 25,543
thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)thedamndest makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
I agree with a lot of what you said, and I definitely see your point of view, but I still think that things can be handled a LOT better. Whether people want to admit it or not, being a World Heavyweight Champion on RAW has 10x more significance than being a World Heavyweight Champion on Smackdown.

Being a World Champion on Smackdown isn't that much more prestigious than what it would have been like to be an Intercontinental Champion 10 years ago.

In the last 5+ years, the WWE hasn't been able to create successful and legitimate main-event superstars. The reason for this, is that NONE OF THESE GUYS have made a main-event impact on the show that matters most: RAW.

Why do think a guy like Ken Kennedy never panned out? Whatever happened to Carlitto's promise? Or Shelton Benjamin's? Why do you think guys like John Morrison never get popped? Does anyone really expect anything to happen with Kofi Kingston (on RAW), with guys like Cena, Orton, HHH, and HBK there?

Has Jack Swagger done ANYTHING of significance on RAW? If not, then wouldn't you agree that him leaving ECW has done ECW more harm than it's done in bolstering RAW?
I would agree that making it on Raw seems to be the ultimate goal in the company. When the WWE Championship was on Smackdown for a brief period, the World Title was suddenly the most showcased belt despite not being the most prestigious. I would disagree that Smackdown's title is only slightly higher than a midcard title from ten years ago. When a Smackdown superstar gets moved to Raw, he will usually jump right into whatever position he left. HHH would fit in the main event of Raw, as would Batista, Orton, Cena, Taker, Edge, or Punk.

Part of the reason the WWE hasn't created many new stars is that John Cena has been unbeatable. One guy (Bobby Lashley) left. Another reason is because they give as much time to the Divas as they do the undercard. There just isn't time on PPVs for non-title feuds.

Kennedy never panned out because he kept getting injured and he just never got off the ground. Carlito is still okay when he wants to be, but doesn't really have a character or direction. Shelton is one guy who has never really given up, but as hard as he tries the fans have never really gotten behind firmly. Again, lack of undercard makes it impossible to build stars. The current situation on Raw is not helping with all the guest hosts.

Swagger has a great look, he can wrestle, and can talk. He is actually involved in an angle on Raw right now. There really wasn't anything left for him to do on ECW.
thedamndest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2009, 07:15 PM   #9
Heyman
Father of Hinduship
 
Heyman's Avatar
 
Posts: 21,083
Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Heyman makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedamndest View Post
Another reason is because they give as much time to the Divas as they do the undercard.
thedamndest,

Excellent overall post. I would comment more on it but I pretty much agree with everything you said. I especially agree with you on the fact that the Diva's get *way* too much TV time. I would like to see them get the T.V. time that they were getting during the Attitude Era.

For actual female wrestlers that are legitimate competitors, and not just eye candy, I think it would be interesting to just lump them all on ECW and see if they attract a new demographic, etc. With the female competitors out of the way on the main shows, it then allows more time for the under card wrestlers to strutt their stuff.
Heyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Hybrid Mode Hybrid Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:17 PM.

Forums Home - TPWW - Archive - Top

Powered by vBulletin®