|
08-21-2005, 08:35 PM
|
#521 |
|
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
 
|
After last season, I don't see how you can compare Moss and Owens. Owens is good, but he's not a special wide reciever. Randy Moss is a special wide reciever because of his speed, his jumps, and his hands.
That being said, in the four major sports the only time I would consider the athletes giving 100% the whole time is in the NHL playoffs. The way hockey works, you go onto the ice for a minute and work as hard as you can, then you get off. You can't coast through a game of hockey, especially in the playoffs. In football, specifically for a reciever, you can easily coast through plays. Wide recievers don't have to go 100% on every running play or every play where you are running a decoy route. Its just kind of stupid to imply that every reciever, in every game, on every play, is putting 100% into it. |
|
|
08-22-2005, 03:55 AM
|
#522 | |
|
King of Love and Piss
Posts: 62,993
|
Quote:
The problem you have is that you cant make a decent football post without mixing in a insult. Hence why i called you a idiot. As fas liking Moss and defending him... Hey i like the Colts. I defend them. I also like to inform people about some of the things going on with my team. I'm a huge fan and have been a huge fan since George was drafted ( yes this is what made me the huge fan ) . For some reason your insecurities cant let you make a post without getting in some kind of insult towards me , but thats fine. Schlongs down my throat because i like my team? Comon are we in 5th grade? Seriously. How old are you? You just sound really fucking stupid. I dont care how many people like you on this board. When it comes to football, atleast in this thread, you've done nothing but look like a idiot. I might seem like a fanboi. I probably am, because i'm a die hard, but i dont have to come with some 5th grade comments involving penis's in mouths to get my point acrossed. |
|
|
|
|
08-22-2005, 03:59 AM
|
#523 | |
Posts: 42,765
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
08-22-2005, 11:44 AM
|
#524 |
|
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
|
They are both talented recievers, that is as far as the comparrison can go.
|
|
|
|
08-22-2005, 06:48 PM
|
#525 | ||
|
WTF do you want?
Posts: 14,760
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
|
|
|
08-22-2005, 09:16 PM
|
#526 | |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Quote:
 Way to ignore the facts and stats though, bro. |
|
|
|
|
08-22-2005, 10:16 PM
|
#527 |
|
feel the madness
Posts: 11,360
|
Even though he avoided the argument, he was pretty on with his comments.
I would take Marvin Harrison or Torry Holt over the Randy's or T.O.'s any day. |
|
|
|
08-22-2005, 11:14 PM
|
#528 |
|
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
|
VEL, I don't know if you are trying to be stupid or not?
In your first quote, I described their difference in styles, and in the second I said that they were not comparable recievers. Is there some sort of irony that I am missing? They are both good wide recievers, but thats as far as the comparison goes. They don't have the same attitude, they don't have the same strengths, and in both of those categories Moss has been a better teammate and has been a better reciever throughout his career. |
|
|
|
08-22-2005, 11:25 PM
|
#529 |
|
Dirty Sanchez Below
Posts: 16,149
|
I think he's saying if you can't compare them how is one better than the other?
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 12:04 AM
|
#530 |
|
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
|
What I am meaning to say, and what I think Bean has been trying to say all this time too, is that that Moss is unfairly judged next to TO when they really aren't the same person.
Like I've said before, their styles aren't really comparable either, and I think Moss is an overall better and more valuble reciever, but in saying that I am veering off track. The whole point I am trying to make is about attitudes. |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 01:05 AM
|
#531 | |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Quote:
We were arguing Moss vs Owens. I even said that despite his talent, Moss wasn't as good for his team as a consummate professional. All I was saying was that Moss is the best in the league right now. Maybe not the best team leader (but then, a WR shouldn't have to be a leader), and definitely not the hardest working... but he can beat any corner in the league, and sees defenses no other player has to face. His stats should speak for themselves, but for some reason they're almost always ignored. Through his first 7 seasons, the GOAT. That's all I'm saying. I'd prefer Hines Ward, personally. Hard-nosed, team-oriented, amazing receiver. Maybe not a statistical beast, but he goes the extra mile. Oh, and I'm not insulting RP because I'm insecure... and I'm not isolating my insulting posts to football posts only. I pretty much insult everyone at any given time. Dunno where RP got a different idea. 
|
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 01:14 AM
|
#532 | |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Quote:
His attitude is different from Owens' attitude, because Moss's issues have almost always been with people outside of his own team. The one instance, walking off the field, in an unwinnable situation, as I said before Favre did with no fanfare, was done out of frustration towards an entire team that lacked the will to win. Owens called out Mariucci after a game, attacked a coach DURING a game, told a coach not to talk to him during a practice... all things that, had he been playing for the Cowboys, he would have been cut or traded by now. Moss did some stupid, immature shit, but he cared about the Vikings. He wanted to play there. He wanted to play with his teammates. Owens seriously doesn't give a fuck who he's playing with. He can't see past the end of his own nose. Now, Moss cares about the Raiders. He loved the Vikings, but he knows it's a business, and he's moving on. Because he loves the game. Terrell Owens loves Terrell Owens, and he loves money. |
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 01:51 AM
|
#533 |
|
MoeFREAK
Posts: 1,682
|
TO, TO, TO, TO, TO, TOOOO
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 02:04 AM
|
#534 |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Toto?
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 02:10 AM
|
#535 |
|
MoeFREAK
Posts: 1,682
|
Greatest Band EVER
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 02:20 AM
|
#536 |
|
The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
|
Bean hit the nail on the head
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 02:27 AM
|
#537 |
|
Posts: 2,540
|
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 03:12 AM
|
#538 |
|
Posts: 42,765
|
I think Moss is the better "team player" but I would rather have TO on my team. He pretty much can do everything Moss does, maybe not AS well but pretty damn close. He can burn corners, catches the ball (his hands arent as good as Moss's but they are pretty damn good) but he can run people over as well. Hes a real physical wide reciever.
All this talk about Harrison is funny, hes a good wideout but he is soft as shit. I've heard this from an NFL players mouth and I believe it. He puts up so much stats because hes a #1 WR in a pass heavy offense. He isn't as good as a individual player as TO or Moss. I like how he isn't a shithead in public but that doesn't make him a better player than Moss or TO. Don't get me wrong, hes a def pro bowler but I don't think hes on the same level as Moss or TO. He isn't a phyiscal wide out at all and he has shown in games where he can be shut down when the defense plays aggressive. You very rarely see TO or Moss ever shut down, regardless of the defense. |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 03:56 AM
|
#539 |
|
King of Love and Piss
Posts: 62,993
|
I never said he was a better player. I said i'd take him over Moss and Owens.
It depends on your definition of soft. I think that term has been thrown around way to loosely when people talk about Harrison. He's smaller then Randy Moss and Owens. He's more of a thinking mans Wide Reciever. He goes over the middle and catches balls. I'll admit. Sometimes he does go down when he see's a DB about to lay him out. Why wouldnt he. He's not big and physical like Owens. One brutal hit like the ones Lavernaues Coles was taking all last year, could end his career. It doesnt make him soft, it makes him smart. My definition of soft would be a guy 6'+ who alligator arms balls thrown over the middle , past 7 yards and is pretty much relegated to a long ball jump and catch or a WR screen play , because of his tendancy to not catch balls over the middle, because of "Footsteps ". As far as pass happy offense. I disagree with that totally. Harrison still made a probowl and put up great numbers in this offense despite two other recievers putting up 10 td's and 1000 yards recieving and Edge running for 1500 yards. Its not a pass happy offense. Its an amazing offense. Harrison should be commended for the year had considering all the stats that were put up by the other recievers and the running back. Bean. With all the debates breaking out in the last 3 pages or so. I think i missed the argument you say i'm dodging. If its about Moss vs TO . I've addressed that. If its about the idiot insult deal, your right. Insults get tossed around all the time. I just dont like people dawging me for being a fan of my team by saying flat out dumb shit. I could easily do the same to you and others , but i dont. I rather just talk football instead of making it personal. BTW Andre Davis is a decent reciever. Nice pickup for the Pats. |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 04:08 AM
|
#540 | |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Quote:
Honestly. Why would you make a player catch a short slant for 6 yards when he can get a skinny post for 50? If you want to throw a ball underneath, throw it to your goddamned TE. |
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 04:19 AM
|
#541 |
|
King of Love and Piss
Posts: 62,993
|
The Colts utilize that WR screen to perfection sometimes. I've seen Moss do it alot too and get td's. If the blocking is right and the DB's are back off. It's such a deadly play. I saw Troy Walters run a 40 yarder off that screen play for a td. Reggie Wayne is brilliant in that play. I truely hate short passes tho. Colts have alot of short pass plays for there recievers and i think the same thing you just said. Why not pass that to your RB or your TE , but whatever moves the ball i guess.
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 04:23 AM
|
#542 |
|
King of Love and Piss
Posts: 62,993
|
I think Lavaurnes Coles got knocked the fuck out every week last year. I cant decide if he was just ballsy and tuff , or stupid and retarded. I think he wanted to get hit hard sometimes.
Coles will be good with the Jets this year. I thought that trade originally was stupid because of what Santana did in the playoffs, but thinking on it more. I think the Jets got a bonified pro bowler and i think the Redskins got a flavor of the moment. I'm not saying Moss wont be good tho, but theres a chance he could fizzle. It is the Redskins. Gibbs does like to run the ball alot. |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 04:24 AM
|
#543 |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Short passes are for QBs with shit accuracy.
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 05:18 AM
|
#544 |
|
King of Love and Piss
Posts: 62,993
|
Chargers>Gates
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 06:09 AM
|
#545 |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
That was a "greater than" thing?
Yeah I questioned Schottenheimer for a minute, now I'm beginning to wonder if the old coot is on to something. Hopefully Joe Gibbs and what's-his-ass in New York get a chance to whip their respective teams into shape. |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 07:10 AM
|
#546 | |
|
WTF do you want?
Posts: 14,760
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 07:22 AM
|
#547 | |
|
WTF do you want?
Posts: 14,760
|
Quote:
The funny one last year was Pinkston, it was so bad that the announcers were talking about it every game. Moss and Owens are both great WR. Moss is faster, Owens is more physical. They both have great hands, jumping and route running. They both make their QB and teams better, draw the double team (in todays nfl rarely will anyone get triple teamed). For me, it comes down to how they act on the field, besides some TD celebrations the most Owens has done is yelled at his QB. Heck Dan Marino used to chew out his WR's almost every game, I can't fault someone for yelling at a team mate in the heat of the game trying to win. I can fault Moss for walking off the field, squirting a water bottle. That's where it comes down to for me, then if you add the "meter maid" off field incident, If I had to take one I'd take Owens. I think Holt is a step behined those two, but makes up for that (small step) by his charecter on and off field, you'd also have to put Hines Ward in there and Chad Johnson (this is teir 2, after Moss and Owens). Harrison I have to put tier 2, for the same reason I say Moss production at times was a product of his offense and surrounding players, the same is true of Harrison, who has great speed and hands, but at 6ft 175# can't be as physical as Moss or Owens. The true test for Moss is what he does in Oakland, if healthy I think he has a great year. But keep in mind, Kerry Collins is no Daunte Cullpepper. |
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 07:23 AM
|
#548 |
|
WTF do you want?
Posts: 14,760
|
Ok, let's get RP going again...
 The old Montana v. Marino question. You're building a team, your starting QB either Brady or Manning, who do you take? |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 08:33 AM
|
#549 | |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Quote:
Moss's water bottle incident happened in his second year, and IMO on par with the Dallas Star incident. It was JUST WATER. And it had no effect on his team, because it was a ref, NOT A COACH. And Owens has called Ray Lewis a murderer, Jeff Garcia a faggot, McNabb a hypocrite and said he gave up in the Superbowl, he has called out his head coach on several occasions, lobbied to get his QB benched, ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I've said this all before but you keep ignoring it. You will reply with "Why u keep repeten urself," and I will repost what I said before... some people are just so thick that you have to hammer certain concepts home, such as "It is wrong to call your quarterback a faggot and ask for his backup to start." |
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 08:41 AM
|
#550 | |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Quote:
Or, say, he had a coach/defense like they have in New England? Also, who was it... Connie Mack? OR some other old-time manager in MLB, formulated that it is better to have a perenniel competitive team who folds in the end, than to have a Championship-caliber team, because if a team wins it all, their players' stock rises (see Dwight Smith, and all of the Baltimore Ravens players of 2000), and if they put up stats and wins, but always fall short -- they'll still have fans holding out hope. From a business stand-point, I'd say Manning. Manning played well on HORRIBLE teams. We don't know what Brady would/could do without the Pats. |
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 12:11 PM
|
#551 |
|
WTF do you want?
Posts: 14,760
|
1) Bean we both keep saying the same thing, but you can respond and say it again so you get the last word... happy now? (doesn't mean I agree with you, just means tired of posting the same thing, over and over).
2) Had a FFB draft start today (totally forgot about it) anyway, at my pick had a choice of Owens or Moss, I took Moss. I'd still rather Owens on my team over Moss, but Moss has more to prove this year and should put up killer stats, like a player in a contract year. |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 01:37 PM
|
#552 |
|
MoeFREAK
Posts: 1,682
|
Brady
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 03:29 PM
|
#553 |
|
King of Love and Piss
Posts: 62,993
|
Manning.
Lets be honest here. Brady is great. He had talent and he runs that team really well , but Manning is nearing the point of being one of the best ever. I say nearing because he lacks that one thing which is a Superbowl. If Manning played on the Patriots for the last 4 years, I honestly believe the Patriots would have 4 straight superbowls. People knock Manning for not winning the big one , but fail to realize that its a team sport. Out of all the sports in the world its probably the most team oreinted. Manning hast had a great defense . He will this year tho as long as they are healthy. Basically if Manning and Brady switched teams. I dont think Brady could win a superbowl with the Colts. I dont think he could even make them competitive unless they overhauled the offensive scheme and simplified everything. The control Manning has over the offense. The reading of defenses at the line. Audibles that he calls that are brilliant. I go back to the game against San Diego when the Colts were pretty much getting handled and Manning brought them back ( Rhode had a huge kickoff ret for td too ). The specific play i remember was 4th and 4 with about 2 minutes to go on there own 30 and Dungy sent the punt team out and Manning told them to get off the field and basically told Dungy he was gunna go for it. Dungy pulled the punt team off the field and Manning completes a pass to Wayne. He then went on to break the td record and eventually win the game. I dont see Brady as that type of person. I dont see Brady as the field general. I see him as a leader among a team of leaders. Thats why i think the Pats have been so successful. This year will be the most important in Mannings career. He has the best Defense he's ever had on his team. Every peice from last years Offense is in tact with the exception of Pollard and an O-linemen. There really isnt any excuses this year. This team should win the Superbowl, but if they cant beat the Pats... Tuff shit for Manning. |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 05:56 PM
|
#554 |
|
WTF do you want?
Posts: 14,760
|
I gotta be honest, my first reaction is "Manning". But then I try to think why..
A little quicker release, ok and Brady is a little more mobile. Better accuracy? Dunno, stats show he has a better %, but is that a factor of the extra attempts he's had? Probably not so I'll give manning the nod. I guess I give manning the nod in most categories, not by much mind you. Then the question becomes what the stats don't show (but the rings do) "Clutch" and with the exception of the 2nd half of that Saints game, Manning hasn't done it. You could say "Brady has had better teams", might be true, but who has had a better offense. With the exception of Dillon last year, have the Pats ever had a RB under Brady close to Edge? Have they ever had a #1 WR close to Harrison? Would the Pats have won 4 Superbowls with Manning? Dunno, what would manning have done that Brady didn't. While my first reaction is "better player" and I'd say Manning the more I look at the non-stats stuff, I gotta say Brady. Also, keep in mind (and this works both ways) Manning has been a full-time QB for 7yrs. Brady for 3 & 2/3. As for Brady on the colts, as someone who has watched Brady the way you watched manning, you're way off. Brady reads defenses, calls audibles, and runs a 2min offense (clock managment and team control) as good or better then anyone in the league, his record in those situations speaks for itself. |
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 06:50 PM
|
#555 | |
|
WTF do you want?
Posts: 14,760
|
Quote:
I see Ron Meyer, I see signing (I think it was) Marc Wilson after the Pats cut him, just to have him try and steal signals from accross the field during a game. I see Harbaugh coming up short, I see Eric Dickerson, I see Jim Mora having a breakdown on TV. Then I decided to look at Mannings teams. 1998 his first year 3-13, and his stats reflected a 3-13 team, every stat tied or was the worst of his career. 1999 13-3, 11 wins in a row, won the AFC East, First round Bye, hosted and lost to the eventual AFC champs (Titans). 2000 10-6, first round playoff loss at Miami (had a 14-0 lead, lost 23-18 in OT) 2001 6-10. The end of the "Mora Era" or should we say "Plaaaaaaaayoffs? you're talking Plaaaaaaaaaaaaaayoffs?". 2002 10-6, lost to the Jets 41-0 in the first round. 2003 12-4, Crushed Denver round #1 41-10, Beat Kc in a shoot out 38-31 (in KC!) lost in NE 24-14 2004 12-4, Beat Denver round #1, lost in NE 20-3 rnd #2. Dunno, doesn't seem like those teams were that bad. |
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 06:51 PM
|
#556 | |
|
WTF do you want?
Posts: 14,760
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
08-23-2005, 11:25 PM
|
#557 | |
|
Happy Inside
Posts: 18,970
|
Quote:
But then you reach the playoffs, and face the best teams at the most important time of the year, and that's the time that separates the good TEAMS, from the teams with good PLAYERS. And that is when the Colts machine is dissected, and shown for what it truly is: Not a great team, just has enough weapons to overcome all of its shortcomings all season until it matters (playoffs). So like I said, we'll never know. If Manning had a better defense, he probably would be in a position to win more games. |
|
|
|
|
08-24-2005, 03:27 AM
|
#558 |
|
Dirty Sanchez Below
Posts: 16,149
|
Eli Manning
|
|
|
|
08-24-2005, 03:32 AM
|
#559 | |
|
love yourself
Posts: 47,788
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
08-24-2005, 04:26 AM
|
#560 | |
|
King of Love and Piss
Posts: 62,993
|
Quote:
I truely mean that. Our defense is a little knicked up in the preseason so far , but its the gunna be the best defense we've had in 10 years. Maybe more. There are no excuses basically. Leave Captain Comeback out of this :\'( Harbaugh freaking went into San Diego and won. Went to KC when they were truely a powerhouse home field advantage team and won ( Did he beat a Montana team that year? I forget, it was either Gannon, Bono, or Montana ) and then went into Three river stadium and damn near got to the Superbowl ( fuck that interception drop , fuck Lamont Warren not able to get a yard and fuck Aaron Bailey for not putting a finger on the gift that felll into his lap on the last play . I seriously went ape shit when i first saw that play . I thought for sure we were in the Superbowl. I think i actually cried when i saw the replay. One of the toughest moments as a Colts fan i've ever been through ). As far as the playoff history, I cant argue. It sells its self , but please remember you are comparing Manning vs Brady. Not Colts vs Patriots. Brady didnt get those rings by himself and Manning wont do it either. That was a team deal. Between Manning and Brady. Manning is better. I know you will argue that but the stats dont lie. 49 touchdowns and 122 percent passing rating dont lie. Brady is great. If Brady played with the Colts weapons , he probably would put up amazing stats. I dont think he would touch Mannings stats, not because he isnt great in his own right , but Peyton Manning can reach another lvl that i dont think Brady can reach right now. Maybe never. I cant argue the past tho when it comes to team accomplishments. I wish people would lay off Manning. There are two sides of the ball and the side he's on is always the best. If he had a defense that didnt give up 25 yard runs and 40 yard passes 3 times a game, he would've probably had a couple rings by now, but he doesnt. Its that simple. Brady has the rings. Brady gets the glory. Manning has to win one. As a huge fan, I'm curious what the opinions of many people across the counrty are when Manning does win a Superbowl ring. There really seems to be a Manning bias i the media and with other people some on this board, because he hasnt won a ring. People really bash him for that. I wonder what people would say if he does win a ring this year. I cant wait for the moment cause i think alot of people wont know what to say. This years Colts defense is gunna be really good. Manning has no excuses. This is the year he has to do it , or its gunna be tons of bias towards him. He could shut some people up this year. |
|
|
|
Linear Mode
