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Old 08-12-2015, 11:31 PM   #81
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And gorgeous dale newstead is pretty much the man in this thread.respect
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Old 08-12-2015, 11:45 PM   #82
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Austin refused to work with Billy Gunn
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Old 08-12-2015, 11:59 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Gertner View Post
I still don't understand how people back Bret is that but to each its own.
I get both sides, but I think Bret sweat and bled, and put lots of guys over on the way up, and earned more respect than he received at the end of the day. A guy like the Undertaker is always given so much credit for being this fucking WWE stalwart, but Bret was the first. And unlike Taker, Bret didn't sandbag guys on the fucking regular like Taker did, non-stop for years (saying this as a Taker fan).

You're a polarizing guy, Gerty. You love the guys you love, you hate the guys you hate, and I'm sure in your head you don't see things black and white, but you post black and white. Could Bret have handled Montreal better, and not been a big moan to Vince about Shawn? Yeah, probably. But were Shawn and Vince not both impossible pricks to work with, constantly overlooking and shitting on every bit of sacrifice put forth by Bret? Most likely. I wasn't there, but let's get serious.
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Old 08-12-2015, 11:59 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Gertner View Post
Austin refused to work with Billy Gunn
And to this day, everybody other than Billy Gunn thanks him.
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Old 08-13-2015, 12:44 AM   #85
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Its a shame austin missed out on that billy gunn kiss my ass match
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Old 08-13-2015, 02:55 AM   #86
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Surprised Kevin Nash doesn't feature more in this thread. He had the pencil in WCW for a while- surely his "love" for vanilla midgets was prominent at the juncture?
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Old 08-13-2015, 01:14 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisen KOTF View Post
Bret Hart is awesome that's why. So yeah.
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Old 08-13-2015, 07:05 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The MAC View Post
MONTREAL :
People seem to think that Bret refused to lose because he was in Canada and it was his final night in WWE. Neither are true.

Bret refused to job to Shawn Michaels after Bret,as the champion, said to Shawn : I am willing to put your over clean, Shawn replied : I'm not willing to do the same for you.

Bret told this to Vince and then said I won't lose to the little fucker until he shows me some respect and puts me over first! - it had nothing to do with the home country thing. People are blurring the Hart Foundation storyline into the real reason.

Also, Bret still had about a month more left in his contract before he left. He was not leaving the same night - he was booked on raw and then all the way until 4th December. Montreal happened November 9th I believe.

This wasn't a case of politics (getting an unfair advantage or burying someone).
Why does Shawn have to show him respect?

Bret was leaving the company. The normal thing you do on your way out of a territory is you put over some guys who will be left to carry the ball. Bret decided he was going to pick and choose. To me thats not right. Its not like Vince asked him to put over Savio Vega or Doink, it was HBK.

Nash for all his criticism when he was leaving put over Taker and HBK strong. No fuss, and he still went on to be a bigger star in WCW than Bret was.

The whole thing about losing another night in another town makes no sense. The big match was built for Survivor Series, you cant have the guy who is leaving the territory go over on the big PPV match. It was a outrageous demand by Bret, and Vince was backed in a corned because of it.
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Old 08-13-2015, 07:06 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Bret admitted to politicking to get anvil work. However it was conducive to good business. When Hogans politics were the very same, I'm right behind him.
Brutus was a far more effective character for WWE than Anvil was.
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:58 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Gertner View Post
Austin refused to work with Billy Gunn
Always knew there was something I didn't like about Austin.
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:16 AM   #91
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Hogan outpoliticking Shawn Michaels at Summerslam 2005 in an example that comes to mind.
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:19 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Hogan outpoliticking Shawn Michaels at Summerslam 2005 in an example that comes to mind.
HBK made a mockery of that match, though.
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Old 08-14-2015, 06:33 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
The whole thing about losing another night in another town makes no sense. The big match was built for Survivor Series, you cant have the guy who is leaving the territory go over on the big PPV match. It was a outrageous demand by Bret, and Vince was backed in a corned because of it.
He didn't want to go over, his suggestion was get out the match with a DQ (which had been done in two other PPV main events that year, so it wasn't an unprecedented request), lose the night before or lose it any other point between then and the December PPV, which was the original plan. The idea that Vince was backed into a corner was bullshit, and he only has himself to blame for being stupid enough to leave the title on a guy that he suggested sign with the other side, and allowing Bret the "reasonable creative control" clause in his deal that legally allowed him to veto something he felt could hurt him on the way out.

Again, Bret was clearly being difficult because he had a stick up his ass about Shawn, and that's really what it boils down to. But Vince's reaction was drastic and unnecessary, and on paper, completely retarded, because if he didn't want it announced the champion was leaving for fear of the damage it would do and the momentum it could give, this did just as much (in theory) to spotlight Bret, help WCW and hurt the WWF's image. It's a massive stroke of luck WCW ballsed it up and the Austin/Tyson element caught fire when it did, because December 1997 is a miserable month of television in the immediate fallout.
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Old 08-14-2015, 07:51 AM   #94
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Pretty sure Vince just wanted to make an example of Hart in front of the largest possible audience that if you try to walk away from his company with his property, there WILL be consequences.
Last edited by DAMN iNATOR; 08-14-2015 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 08-14-2015, 08:45 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Nash for all his criticism when he was leaving put over Taker and HBK strong. No fuss, and he still went on to be a bigger star in WCW than Bret was.
It's crazy because if Nash didn't leave there wasn't going to be a streak.
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Old 08-14-2015, 08:51 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Brutus was a far more effective character for WWE than Anvil was.
That has literally nothing to do with anything I'm talking about. And I never complained about Brutus at any point, unless it would be about him going over Mr. Perfect or his entire horrendous WCW run. Pretty sure Anvil never went over anybody of note, he was just an effective bit of muscle in the Hart Foundation, and the history he had with the Harts was relevant. You are just assuming things about my point of view, once more.

Thought maybe I said something crappy about Brutus? I don't remember, but I never compared them, or talked about Hogan helping out Brutus as a negative. I literally just talked about how I didn't like how Hogan treated Bret because I thought it was crap for business.

Your logic continues to be circular. I think you think you're putting forth some argument that hasn't been made a bajillion times before, whereas this is the EXACT same argument about Montreal that's been had a thousand times. And it has nothing to do with Bret having amazing matches. Whether you think Bret was right or wrong, it's pretty clear there were extenuating circumstances vs. Hogan just being a giant wang and not wanting to pass the torch. Also, keep in mind, Bret had already passed the torch to Shawn the year before. Bret had jobbed to Sid, and Vader as well, while also helping solidify Austin as a big time player. Hogan "passed the torch" to Warrior by jobbing clean (then proceeding to sandbag Warriors title run), but he never wanted to do the same for Bret, even once. And used Warriors title run (the one which he sandbagged) as a reason not to put over Bret. YET, he put over fucking yokozuna, who anyone and their mother knew especially as a monster heel, was NOT carrying the company.

As far as the rest of it, hb2k pretty much covered how Bret was willing to drop the title at any point other than that night to Shawn. But it's okay, we'll just keep running this ridiculous broken record.
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Old 08-14-2015, 08:53 AM   #97
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Nash was a bigger star in WCW because he was the first guy to jump ship and by the time Bret came, nobody wanted him there, AND Nash had the book. Come on CyNick you're better than that!
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Old 08-14-2015, 09:47 AM   #98
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interestingly Bret Hart had already for-filled the number of dates he was meant to work for the WWF, before survivor series. He didn't even need to show up. He could have told them "if the match is with Michaels , I'm not coming - go fuck yourselves." He showed up to try to find an ending that would satisfy both parties (ending in DQ and handing the strap over or having Michaels put him over then he would put michaels over clean)

He also had the law on his side with creative control clause.

Vince is an idiot, he had the same issue with Jarret and warrior - both held titles all the way to their last WWF appearance.
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Old 08-14-2015, 10:32 AM   #99
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This isn't related to politicking really, but anytime Bret/Montreal gets brought up I laugh imagining what could have happened had Bret not gotten the lucrative WCW contract offer and therefore decided to milk the WWF for all it was worth with his 20 year contract offer.

Offering a 20 year contract to a guy who was about to turn 40 is just absolutely mad in any scenario. Even if you assume he'd have stayed healthy, how much longer would he have realistically been working a full-time schedule? I know there were provisions in the deal for him to transition to an office job at some point but still...just an insanely long commitment to make to anybody.
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:38 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
Pretty sure Vunce just wanted to make an example of Hart in front of the largest possible audience that if you try to walk away from his company with his property, there WILL be consequences.

I pray you are trying to be sarcastic. Otherwise,you are a dumb motherfucker
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:17 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Cruz View Post
This isn't related to politicking really, but anytime Bret/Montreal gets brought up I laugh imagining what could have happened had Bret not gotten the lucrative WCW contract offer and therefore decided to milk the WWF for all it was worth with his 20 year contract offer.

Offering a 20 year contract to a guy who was about to turn 40 is just absolutely mad in any scenario. Even if you assume he'd have stayed healthy, how much longer would he have realistically been working a full-time schedule? I know there were provisions in the deal for him to transition to an office job at some point but still...just an insanely long commitment to make to anybody.
Probably would have transitioned to a Kane-like role after a while. He'd still be an active wrestler but be used more to help other rising stars or be a reliable big name whenever the WWE needed star power quickly.
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:24 PM   #102
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Old 08-14-2015, 03:08 PM   #103
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Think Bret would/would've been a role similar to Triple H where he gets a high profile feud every now and then and appears sporadically.
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Old 08-14-2015, 03:25 PM   #104
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Quote:
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Think Bret would/would've been a role similar to Triple H where he gets a high profile feud every now and then and appears sporadically.
wonder if fucking Stephanie is also part of that role
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Old 08-14-2015, 09:23 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hb2k View Post
He didn't want to go over, his suggestion was get out the match with a DQ (which had been done in two other PPV main events that year, so it wasn't an unprecedented request), lose the night before or lose it any other point between then and the December PPV, which was the original plan. The idea that Vince was backed into a corner was bullshit, and he only has himself to blame for being stupid enough to leave the title on a guy that he suggested sign with the other side, and allowing Bret the "reasonable creative control" clause in his deal that legally allowed him to veto something he felt could hurt him on the way out.

Again, Bret was clearly being difficult because he had a stick up his ass about Shawn, and that's really what it boils down to. But Vince's reaction was drastic and unnecessary, and on paper, completely retarded, because if he didn't want it announced the champion was leaving for fear of the damage it would do and the momentum it could give, this did just as much (in theory) to spotlight Bret, help WCW and hurt the WWF's image. It's a massive stroke of luck WCW ballsed it up and the Austin/Tyson element caught fire when it did, because December 1997 is a miserable month of television in the immediate fallout.
Perfect, a DQ on the headlining fight of one of the biggest cards of the year.
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Old 08-14-2015, 09:25 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
That has literally nothing to do with anything I'm talking about. And I never complained about Brutus at any point, unless it would be about him going over Mr. Perfect or his entire horrendous WCW run. Pretty sure Anvil never went over anybody of note, he was just an effective bit of muscle in the Hart Foundation, and the history he had with the Harts was relevant. You are just assuming things about my point of view, once more.

Thought maybe I said something crappy about Brutus? I don't remember, but I never compared them, or talked about Hogan helping out Brutus as a negative. I literally just talked about how I didn't like how Hogan treated Bret because I thought it was crap for business.

Your logic continues to be circular. I think you think you're putting forth some argument that hasn't been made a bajillion times before, whereas this is the EXACT same argument about Montreal that's been had a thousand times. And it has nothing to do with Bret having amazing matches. Whether you think Bret was right or wrong, it's pretty clear there were extenuating circumstances vs. Hogan just being a giant wang and not wanting to pass the torch. Also, keep in mind, Bret had already passed the torch to Shawn the year before. Bret had jobbed to Sid, and Vader as well, while also helping solidify Austin as a big time player. Hogan "passed the torch" to Warrior by jobbing clean (then proceeding to sandbag Warriors title run), but he never wanted to do the same for Bret, even once. And used Warriors title run (the one which he sandbagged) as a reason not to put over Bret. YET, he put over fucking yokozuna, who anyone and their mother knew especially as a monster heel, was NOT carrying the company.

As far as the rest of it, hb2k pretty much covered how Bret was willing to drop the title at any point other than that night to Shawn. But it's okay, we'll just keep running this ridiculous broken record.
So any time Hogan refuses to do a JOB he's a "wang"...sorry, a "giant wang", and when Bret does it its cool because he had 50-50 matches with Austin where he won every time.

Awesome.
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Old 08-14-2015, 09:42 PM   #107
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Also, people are really going out of their way to ignore the fact that Bret didn't wanna lose the belt in Canada because he was "a Canadian hero" and it would hurt him personally. Those words literally came out of his mouth and there's still this attempt to ignore it and justify him not wanting to job by saying HBK was a dick and THAT was the problem. The guy was a ridiculously huge mark for himself.
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:04 AM   #108
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WOw lots of Hart fag sucking dick in this thread

Also find it funny a bunch of hourly sandwich artists are defending Harts "preofessionalism" and how he handled his career and relationship with his employer.

This is why you make 7 bucks an hour.
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:07 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The MAC View Post
interestingly Bret Hart had already for-filled the number of dates he was meant to work for the WWF, before survivor series. He didn't even need to show up. He could have told them "if the match is with Michaels , I'm not coming - go fuck yourselves." He showed up to try to find an ending that would satisfy both parties (ending in DQ and handing the strap over or having Michaels put him over then he would put michaels over clean)

He also had the law on his side with creative control clause.

Vince is an idiot, he had the same issue with Jarret and warrior - both held titles all the way to their last WWF appearance.
OMGZ that makes Vince and idiot? Man Heyman must have been such a fucking tool moron then since he let his champions walk without a deal!

Surely there isnt business reasons to defend both parties right? No they just suck. A hot act catching fire on the way out of town and having a hard time agreeing to a deal makes the owner a fucking moron! Hope he might win out makes him a moron.

Letting Jarrett leave won Vince the Monday night wars. what an AMAZING deal for one nights bonus pay.
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:09 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Bret admitted to politicking to get anvil work. However it was conducive to good business. When Hogans politics were the very same, I'm right behind him.
You think Anvil had ANY impact on business.

Give his spoit to Brakkus and the same money is made.
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:14 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Cena's "always winning" has been overblown to an insane level. As I've said before he loses more than any top face ever and even when he was winning more at the beginning of his run, after the JBL feud, he was starting to suffer from the paint-by-numbers booking.

As for Hogan... He was a top face for over a decade at that point. He didn't start getting met with crowds hating him a year after his face run began. A great, well-handled character can run out of things to achieve and get bland after over a decade. When it happens go the most charismatic/entertaining man wrestling has ever seen a year after his face run begins on two separate occasions, there's a problem.
Fair to Cena, but no, the booking doesnt let him "lose" enough.

Hes put guys over, but they book around that and wipe it out.

Owens is all you need to see. Owens wins! WHOOO! Then gets booked to go down twice and is shuffled down the deck.

Edge in 2005
Orton
Batista
Nexus
etc

Cena puts them over but then creative buries them

so in short Cena gets blamed for their mistakes.
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:03 AM   #112
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Bob Backlund running for president was good politicking. He had a bow tie so you knew he meant business.
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:14 AM   #113
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Mr. Backlund is always SRS BSNSS.
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:55 AM   #114
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Backlund is incredible
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:59 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewAllenHanso View Post
You think Ail had ANY impact on business.

Give his spoit to Brakkus and the same money is made.
I won't argue that. But him being there didn't hurt business and he played a part in a cool time it wrasslin. Most importantly anvil helped Bret in his younger days get over, nothing wrong with bret paying it back. Like any of us wouldnt?
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Old 08-15-2015, 02:06 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
So any time Hogan refuses to do a JOB he's a "wang"...sorry, a "giant wang", and when Bret does it its cool because he had 50-50 matches with Austin where he won every time.

Awesome.
Lol did I say any time? I brought up one time with bret and half brought up sting. I'd say much of hogans run was better spent with him winning. Kind of woulda killed the Hogan mystique if he did 50/50 booking.

Bbutt u nottice when guys came out if feuds with Bret, tthey seemed crredible buuut when guys came out of feuds with Hogan, they died? Okay ;-) I'm being cheeky now
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Old 08-15-2015, 02:38 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Backlund is incredible
Met him outside before a local house show a few years back...couldn't believe he was wearing shorts as it was pretty chilly, so I told him so...probably one of my coolest experiences yet with hoing to shows and interacting with some of them was him replying at all, let alone saying something slong the lines of "I'm used to it" or "I wear them all the time, it's no big deal".

Got much love for any wrestler that will go out of their way to talk to/meet/sign autograph(s)/shake hands/generally be nice to their fans.
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Old 08-15-2015, 10:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Perfect, a DQ on the headlining fight of one of the biggest cards of the year.
Hey, I agree, but thats the position Vince put himself in, and its not like he hadnt done a main event DQ in the first full priced In Your House 2 months prior. We can't pretend he isn't guilty of pulling a DQ finish when it suits, so its not exactly being backed into a corner.
Last edited by hb2k; 08-15-2015 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 08-15-2015, 11:02 AM   #119
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What they should have done is have Bret Hart get abducted during the match by either Men in Black or Aliens. That would explain why he is gone and he wouldn't have to drop the belt. Then they hold a tournament for the belt at the December In Ya House ppv.
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Old 08-15-2015, 12:39 PM   #120
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The guy was a ridiculously huge mark for himself.
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