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Old 04-12-2009, 11:09 PM   #121
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awesome list tho i wud have taker instead of andre...
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:10 PM   #122
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As much a Taker fan as I am, Andre did a lot more to make the business what it is. I'd definitely put him at number 6 though.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:12 PM   #123
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awesome list tho i wud have taker instead of andre...
Shut up taker707.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:12 PM   #124
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:36 PM   #125
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wheres kane86 when you need him
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:48 PM   #126
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The list is pretty much the same as mine, except I wouldn't have HBK on there. While he's definately a top five greatest wrestler of all-time, he's not in the same class as the other four guys you have up there. He hasn't really transcended the wrestling business like Hogan, Flair, Andre and Austin. Same with Taker.

I would put guys like Rogers, George, Piper and Rock in front of him.
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Old 04-13-2009, 12:22 AM   #127
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oh, and as for the list, well, i'd switch either shawn or stone cold, probably shawn, and put bruno sammartino up there. i think you need one of them, in my opinion stone cold, but with that list, sammartino just fits, he was the man of the early days
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:00 AM   #128
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The list is pretty much the same as mine, except I wouldn't have HBK on there. While he's definately a top five greatest wrestler of all-time, he's not in the same class as the other four guys you have up there. He hasn't really transcended the wrestling business like Hogan, Flair, Andre and Austin. Same with Taker.

I would put guys like Rogers, George, Piper and Rock in front of him.
I agree with you. I wasn't around during the day of most of those guys you mentioned, but I would definitely put The Rock ahead of Shawn Michaels, just because of his mere popularity. If you're talking pop-culture icons in professional wrestling, you've got to put quite a few guys before Shawn Michaels. Roddy Piper, The Undertaker and Bret Hart would all go ahead of HBK in those regards, I believe.

It's not a tragedy that HBK makes anyone's top five lists, though.
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:07 AM   #129
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The list is pretty much the same as mine, except I wouldn't have HBK on there. While he's definately a top five greatest wrestler of all-time, he's not in the same class as the other four guys you have up there. He hasn't really transcended the wrestling business like Hogan, Flair, Andre and Austin. Same with Taker.

I would put guys like Rogers, George, Piper and Rock in front of him.
That's a fair assessment, though out of the people you listed I really could only see George being a suitable replacement.

Rocky was fun, but his direct impact is a litle hard to gauge. It's like if Warrior has been talented, people liked him, but they were really mainly there to see Austin (or in the Warrior analogy, Hogan). He's served as a great ambassador of sorts to the rest of the entertainment industry, but his contributions to wrestling on a whole weren't exactly industry changing.

Piper, while great, truly never broke the mold. Again, he served as an incredible co-star...but never quite the main dish. Now I grant, WrestleMania couldn't have happened without Piper there to counter Hogan, but he served as the yang, and not the yin...I guess what I'm trying to say is, he came second in the equation.

Rogers...now that's a tricky one. If the question was who was the most influential to OTHER wrestlers, I would say Rogers is probably #2 or 3 on the list. But in terms of what he did for the business, I'm not really sure he would be someone to which the crowd owes their appreciation of their love for the sport.

Now George...he's someone who if there was anyone who might be able to knock Michaels out of the top 5 spot, it would be George. When you have guys like James Brown and Ali tributing their personality after a wrestler, you know you've struck gold. Really the first gimmick to get over. And while he was still somewhat of a regional performer, his influence kind of changed the way the sport was run from a straight up "tough man" approach of guys who could legit stretch you, to that of the gimmick style that more or less personified the business in thelast 20 years...only he was, you know, 50 years ahead of that. In the end, it's kind of a judgement call...and we all know how I went with it...but it's an interesting argument to be made for sure.

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Old 04-13-2009, 01:13 AM   #130
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oh, and as for the list, well, i'd switch either shawn or stone cold, probably shawn, and put bruno sammartino up there. i think you need one of them, in my opinion stone cold, but with that list, sammartino just fits, he was the man of the early days
Switching out Steve Austin? Are you nuts? I could see the argument to switch out Michaels despite my personal feelings for him...but Austin? That's something I really can not wrap my brain around.

And on top of that, in my evaluation Bruno doesn't belong in the top ten guys, nevermind the top 5. Bruno wasn't really that strong of a draw outside of New York. He was a very basic guy who in many ways used a style of working that was out of date even at his peak. I promise you, if it wasn't for the length of his reigns with the WWE Belt (which again, at the time, was strictly a New York territory) you would probably have never heard of his name.

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Old 04-13-2009, 01:46 AM   #131
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This thread shouldn't have sucked. It did though.
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:51 AM   #132
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I tried Desty. I really tried. We can still turn it around...maybe...this last page hasn't been a complete disgace. :/
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:53 AM   #133
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:53 AM   #134
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*Tries to salvage thread.*

I'd like to hear mike adamle's reasoning on even considering taking Austin off this list.
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:55 AM   #135
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Hell, Noid, care to expand on the reasoning for any of your choices?

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Old 04-13-2009, 01:58 AM   #136
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Also, I really can't dispute your top 5 there. I might knock off HBM for *gulp* illy Graham based soley on his impact on workers that changed the industry. But that would require me to make a lot of thought because he was beyond terrible in the ring. Great charecter, great promos, really defined what wreslting would become in a thousand different ways. But just so bad in the ring...
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:59 AM   #137
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:03 AM   #138
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Also, I really can't dispute your top 5 there. I might knock off HBM for *gulp* illy Graham based soley on his impact on workers that changed the industry. But that would require me to make a lot of thought because he was beyond terrible in the ring. Great charecter, great promos, really defined what wreslting would become in a thousand different ways. But just so bad in the ring...
Like I had said with LC, if this was a list of worker influence, he and Rogers would have obviously had a much better placement. But even there, Graham influenced the "cool heel" movement. Plus, like you said, his matches...oh god his matches...and really in the end he didn't bring that many fans to the table and certainly never made much of an impact. And shouldn't we be more upset that he paved the way for Steiner to get over post-talent?

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Old 04-13-2009, 02:07 AM   #139
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Hell, Noid, care to expand on the reasoning for any of your choices?

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Well, I've always been of the belief that Shawn Michaels is probably the greatest "non-icon" in the history of the business. By that I mean of all the guys that have not really crossed over at all into the mainstream, HBK is probably the greatest and closest to being associated with the sport.

Shawn Michaels is a wrestling fan's wrestler, and out of everyone on the list, I think the spot he would contend the most with is that held by Ric Flair. If you watched professional wrestling, you'd have a lot of respect for Ric Flair. If you didn't watch professional wrestling, you probably wouldn't have a clue who he is.

Perhaps I put too much stock on how well a guy branches out, but I think it is an effective measuring stick. Shawn Michaels is just the greatest exception to prove the rule.

This might be a reason a lot of people to scoff at, but Bret Hart has been featured on The Simpsons. The show has lost its magic over the years, but when you've made it onto The Simpsons, you reach a state of immortality. Bret is also a symbol associated with technical wrestling. There are some answers to subjective questions that can just be considered the correct ones, even if you don't believe them. "Who is the best technical wrestler of all-time?" Bret Hart is an acceptable answer.

Roddy Piper has been on films, branched out, and as you said, was a major antagonist to Hulk Hogan. I agree with you, though, I wouldn't put Piper on the list. Maybe not even before Michaels.

The Undertaker is the gimmick wrestler. I don't care what anyone says. He's also the premier 300-pounder. You've got Andre as that giant-sized heavyweight, but when it comes to your classic big man, Taker is by far the most iconic. Coming from a younger wrestling fan, too, Taker is also a name you know, even if you don't know wrestling, and are just using it to make fun of the sport. You've got the ridiculous handle-bar mustache promos of a Hulk Hogan, and you've got the ridiculous names and assumed identities of an Undertaker or a Rock.

Plus, yes I know it is a fixed sport, but The Undertaker has just won more World Championships and just went over Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania this year. I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, but when it comes to the characters in sports entertainment, Taker deserves a place at the top of the list.

As for The Rock, I can understand why some might discount him because of who else was around him, and his relatively short time in the business, but when naming a trio of the biggest draws in professional wrestling, I just cannot list any other three than Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:11 AM   #140
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If I were allowed to do a top ten list:

1. Stone Cold Steve Austin
2. Hulk Hogan
3. The Rock
4. Ric Flair
5. Andre the Giant
6. The Undertaker
7. Sting
8. Bret Hart
9. Shawn Michaels
10. Goldberg

Honourable Mention: "Rowdy" Roddy Piper

I know Goldberg making the top ten will piss a lot of people off, but the way he drew, and even if he respresents a more shallow side of the business, there is just something synonymous about "Goldberg" and "professional wrestling." For right or wrong reasons. But I'm only really allowed to comment on what I've experienced from the Attitude era up. Guys like Billy Graham, Bruno Sammartino, Buddy Rogers and Gorgeous George and beyond my scope.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:12 AM   #141
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Like I had said with LC, if this was a list of worker influence, he and Rogers would have obviously had a much better placement. But even there, Graham influenced the "cool heel" movement. Plus, like you said, his matches...oh god his matches...and really in the end he didn't bring that many fans to the table and certainly never made much of an impact. And shouldn't we be more upset that he paved the way for Steiner to get over post-talent?

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Graham ifluenced a lot, maybe too much with his ring work.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:13 AM   #142
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If I were allowed to do a top ten list:

1. Stone Cold Steve Austin
2. Hulk Hogan
3. The Rock
4. Ric Flair
5. Andre the Giant
6. The Undertaker
7. Sting
8. Bret Hart
9. Shawn Michaels
10. Goldberg

Honourable Mention: "Rowdy" Roddy Piper

I know Goldberg making the top ten will piss a lot of people off, but the way he drew, and even if he respresents a more shallow side of the business, there is just something synonymous about "Goldberg" and "professional wrestling." For right or wrong reasons.
I am REALLY sorry Noid, you know I love ya, but that list has no credibilty with Goldberg on there.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:14 AM   #143
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And Sting really hurts it too.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:14 AM   #144
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GOLDBERG!?

FUCKING GOLDBERG!?

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Old 04-13-2009, 02:15 AM   #145
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I know they might not be the most popular choices, and I felt really dirty including Goldberg, but talking about a certain aspect of the business, I think he could be considered massively successful. Although, if we are taking all things into consideration, Goldberg would be at the tail end of the top hundred.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:17 AM   #146
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GOLDBERG!?

FUCKING GOLDBERG!?
Well, what are we measuring? Iconic association with the business? In that case, yet. Ask a casual fan to name some wrestlers, and they'll probably give you Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Stone Cold, The Undertaker and Goldberg.

Not one of the greatest of all-time from an in-ring standpoint. But the more you get into wrestling, the easier it is to dislike and dismiss the guy. Even if he's a negative icon, he's an icon.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:22 AM   #147
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I am REALLY sorry Noid, you know I love ya, but that list has no credibilty with Goldberg on there.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:25 AM   #148
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Well, I've always been of the belief that Shawn Michaels is probably the greatest "non-icon" in the history of the business. By that I mean of all the guys that have not really crossed over at all into the mainstream, HBK is probably the greatest and closest to being associated with the sport.

Shawn Michaels is a wrestling fan's wrestler, and out of everyone on the list, I think the spot he would contend the most with is that held by Ric Flair. If you watched professional wrestling, you'd have a lot of respect for Ric Flair. If you didn't watch professional wrestling, you probably wouldn't have a clue who he is.

Perhaps I put too much stock on how well a guy branches out, but I think it is an effective measuring stick. Shawn Michaels is just the greatest exception to prove the rule.

This might be a reason a lot of people to scoff at, but Bret Hart has been featured on The Simpsons. The show has lost its magic over the years, but when you've made it onto The Simpsons, you reach a state of immortality. Bret is also a symbol associated with technical wrestling. There are some answers to subjective questions that can just be considered the correct ones, even if you don't believe them. "Who is the best technical wrestler of all-time?" Bret Hart is an acceptable answer.

Roddy Piper has been on films, branched out, and as you said, was a major antagonist to Hulk Hogan. I agree with you, though, I wouldn't put Piper on the list. Maybe not even before Michaels.

The Undertaker is the gimmick wrestler. I don't care what anyone says. He's also the premier 300-pounder. You've got Andre as that giant-sized heavyweight, but when it comes to your classic big man, Taker is by far the most iconic. Coming from a younger wrestling fan, too, Taker is also a name you know, even if you don't know wrestling, and are just using it to make fun of the sport. You've got the ridiculous handle-bar mustache promos of a Hulk Hogan, and you've got the ridiculous names and assumed identities of an Undertaker or a Rock.

Plus, yes I know it is a fixed sport, but The Undertaker has just won more World Championships and just went over Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania this year. I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, but when it comes to the characters in sports entertainment, Taker deserves a place at the top of the list.

As for The Rock, I can understand why some might discount him because of who else was around him, and his relatively short time in the business, but when naming a trio of the biggest draws in professional wrestling, I just cannot list any other three than Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock.
OK, and I see where you're coming from for a lot of this, but let me counter with a couple of points...

When Bret appeared on The Simpsons, it was when he was Champion. From the bottom of my heart, I truly believe someone called over to WWE, said they had an idea for a 10 second joke, and McMahon delivered his champ boy at the time. And on top of that, even with his Simpson cameo, I would wager dollar to penny that if you poled 100 random people who didn't watch wrestling, more would know Michaels than Hart. Honestly, I just think they would. It's kind of impossible to know for sure, but for idle speculation, I'm going with Michaels. It's not a hard leap of faith either since Michaels' career on top has been longer and during times of better business. Not saying Bret couldn't have had it better if his career wasn't cut short, but it happened, and Michaels went on to regain his top spot for another 5 years. It happened that way, and we can only judge on what happened, not what could have happened.

But no matter my personal feelings otherwise, he is received as one of the great technical wrestlers...again, not my cup of tea, but he's won over more people than my loud voice can cover. In the end, it's not markish reaction, it's a thought out analysis, and I think Michaels can easily be regarded as a greater icon of the industry.

Piper I've already covered...so we'll let that one be...

As for Taker. He's a top 10 choice for me. But I just don't see him as being a greater icon for the business than Michaels. This is one of those situations where you could have a hundred debates and it come up 50/50. But he just doesn't bring the total package like Michaels does, IMO.

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Old 04-13-2009, 02:25 AM   #149
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Lex Luger should be on that list before Goldberg, and I don't like Luger.... Plus I'm Jewish so I should be supporting Goldberg.
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Old 04-13-2009, 07:57 AM   #150
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The fact that this belt is potentially the real deal and not some 'prop' of somesort, u have to respect HBK and the fact that through carriage, he has got every champion around the eagle belt time to touch his dick.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:35 AM   #151
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:41 PM   #152
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The One is a faggit poo face.

How can you not have Steve Austin is the bestest wrestler of all time? He drew the most money and was also a very good wrestler. Hogen and Rocky are second and therd respectivily.

Here are the real rankings

Austin
Hogen
Rocky
Bret Hart
Shawn Micheals.

The One - Are u a new fan to wrestling? U beter be careful what you say otherwise people will flame you for not being informitive!
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Old 04-13-2009, 03:02 PM   #153
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Hey man, I respectfully disagree with you.
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Old 04-13-2009, 03:13 PM   #154
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i'm not really sure what i was thinking last night to be honest, i have a completely different opinion today than i did yesterday... i actually really like this list that's up now, still unsure about hbk being there, but since im not really a 60's or earlier wrestling guru i'm going to take your advice on this one and i was probably wrong about bruno.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:00 PM   #155
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only read page 1 of this thread because well it's the wrestling forum discussing the best ever and frankly i don't want to read all of that. a few things:

1) i did find an egg in the couch
2) the more and more i think about it and go back and rewatch matches from years ago, shawn michaels is probably my favorite of all time. his matches get better the more that i watch them. i can't say that about many guys.
3) a solid list. not sure about andre, and not because i don't like him. i just feel like somebody else should be in that fifth spot. not sure who, but i'll think about it and get back to you. maybe.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:06 PM   #156
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1) i did find an egg in the couch
Tovo knows his Easter shit.

Also, Andre is probably more deserving of a spot in the top five than Michaels. I mean when you talk about someone who was for nearly a decade THE top draw anywhere in the world, and someone who completely changed the business; it's Andre. Plus, and this is factually very hard to argue against, Andre is the reason WWE was able to change the format from regional territories to national promotion.

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Old 04-13-2009, 06:40 PM   #157
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Tovo knows his Easter shit.

Also, Andre is probably more deserving of a spot in the top five than Michaels. I mean when you talk about someone who was for nearly a decade THE top draw anywhere in the world, and someone who completely changed the business; it's Andre. Plus, and this is factually very hard to argue against, Andre is the reason WWE was able to change the format from regional territories to national promotion.

TOVO Fact: Tovo never uses regular strength Tylenol. EXTRA strength is the minimum for Tovo.
I agree with this. The Andre bit AND the Tylenol bit. Andre played a huge part in defining the business. Michaels certainly became the best in almost everything he's done, but he walked a road that had been made before him. Granted he did make it a much better road that you'd much rather travel down... but when Andre came through, not only was there no road, there was a god damn forest there.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:42 PM   #158
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well maybe somebody else should not be in that fifth spot. it's not like i had a legit replacement anyway.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:08 PM   #159
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OK, and I see where you're coming from for a lot of this, but let me counter with a couple of points...

When Bret appeared on The Simpsons, it was when he was Champion. From the bottom of my heart, I truly believe someone called over to WWE, said they had an idea for a 10 second joke, and McMahon delivered his champ boy at the time. And on top of that, even with his Simpson cameo, I would wager dollar to penny that if you poled 100 random people who didn't watch wrestling, more would know Michaels than Hart. Honestly, I just think they would. It's kind of impossible to know for sure, but for idle speculation, I'm going with Michaels. It's not a hard leap of faith either since Michaels' career on top has been longer and during times of better business. Not saying Bret couldn't have had it better if his career wasn't cut short, but it happened, and Michaels went on to regain his top spot for another 5 years. It happened that way, and we can only judge on what happened, not what could have happened.

But no matter my personal feelings otherwise, he is received as one of the great technical wrestlers...again, not my cup of tea, but he's won over more people than my loud voice can cover. In the end, it's not markish reaction, it's a thought out analysis, and I think Michaels can easily be regarded as a greater icon of the industry.

Piper I've already covered...so we'll let that one be...

As for Taker. He's a top 10 choice for me. But I just don't see him as being a greater icon for the business than Michaels. This is one of those situations where you could have a hundred debates and it come up 50/50. But he just doesn't bring the total package like Michaels does, IMO.

TOVO Fact: My back hurts.
Well, see, that's pretty much what it comes down to. A lot of these debates, as much analysis as you try to put into them, come out as completely subjective things. I would make the statement that you have some icons that are just in a top seed. Men like Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, etc. Their ordering is debatable. And then you've got other men like Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart and The Undertaker, who are in a second seed of legendary.

When talking about just who is more iconic, Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart; Shawn Michaels or The Undertaker, I think the exact order is a bit too subjective to pinpoint.

Also, I hope your back gets better.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:09 PM   #160
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Quote:
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Lex Luger should be on that list before Goldberg, and I don't like Luger.... Plus I'm Jewish so I should be supporting Goldberg.
Perhaps you are right, actually. I just know that every kid on my block had Goldberg merchandise before any of us really knew who Goldberg was.
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