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06-20-2006, 07:03 PM
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#1 |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
 
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More importantly it means the DRays likely won't trade Crawford. SUCK IT ANGELS
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06-20-2006, 07:03 PM
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#2 |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
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triple post
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06-20-2006, 07:03 PM
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#3 |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
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triple post
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06-20-2006, 08:26 PM
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#4 |
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Temporary
Posts: 15,618
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Ryan Howard just hit a upper upper deck home run.
It was insane. |
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06-20-2006, 08:57 PM
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#5 | |
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The Classic Dylan Staples
Posts: 51,539
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Quote:
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06-20-2006, 08:44 PM
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#6 |
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The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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My St. Louis friends thought they were getting Crawford, then they thought they were getting Cabrera. I hate St. Louis.
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06-20-2006, 08:58 PM
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#7 |
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The Classic Dylan Staples
Posts: 51,539
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I did not see the home run though, for all I know it could have been to the deepest part of the park
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06-20-2006, 09:43 PM
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#8 |
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Temporary
Posts: 15,618
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It was 461 feet
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06-21-2006, 12:26 AM
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#9 |
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Guest
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christ, jays finally win a damn game
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06-21-2006, 12:43 AM
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#10 |
Posts: 42,765
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Why would the Royals trade prospects?
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06-21-2006, 01:06 AM
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#11 |
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The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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I may be a bit biased, but Thursday's matchup between Francisco Lariano and Roger Clemons should be as good a game as any this baseball season. The MLB not only gets to market the best pitcher in this generation, but he is going against a 22-year old who almost warrants All Star consideration this season.
The reason I bring this up is because people always say "Well what else is going on that is more important than the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry?" This is something big coming up, hopefully it goes right. |
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06-21-2006, 02:19 PM
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#12 |
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Second City Saint
Posts: 5,806
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20-6 whitewash last night... and I was there.
by the way guys... there is no such thing as a clutch hitter. Last edited by Joey Slugs; 06-21-2006 at 04:38 PM. |
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06-21-2006, 04:30 PM
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#13 |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
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You miss the point Stima. There is no such thing as a clutch hitter.
From ESPN.com ORTIZ CAREER: .307/.385/.577/.962 Close and Late 2006: .216/.275/.595/.870 2005: .346/.447/.846/1.293 2004: .324/.380/.634/1.014 2003: .306/.390/.681/1.071 Runners in Scoring Position 2006: .277/.382/.494/.876 2005: .352/.462/.580/1.042 2004: .355/.431/.594/1.025 2003: .273/.368/.482/.850 Runners on: 2006: .287/.367/.545/.912 2005: .315/.425/.581/1.006 2004: .322/.411/.616/1.027 2003: .286/.384/.518/.902 Postseason series w/ Red Sox .095/.174/.143 .269/.367/.538 .545/.688/1.000 .387/.457/.742 .308/.471/.615 .333/.333/.750 So what do these numbers tell us? Absolutely fucking nothing. You'd think someone who is the most clutch hitter in baseball would be a little more consistent. I'm not saying these numbers are bad, because for the most part they're excellent, because Ortiz is a great hitter. But these numbers are also incredibly inconsistent. The reason for that is the situation changes nothing. Clutch hitting is NOT a skill. Ortiz doesn't think, "Wow, there are runners on and its the 9th inning, I better quit screwing around and actually try now". There is nothing he does differently, he just hits like he always has. And he's an amazing hitter. But he isn't a clutch hitter and neither is anyone else in the history of this game. If a guy goes 2-23 in a postseason series (like Ortiz did in 2003 vs. the A's), he isn't a choker. He just happened to hit a cold stretch in those 23 random at-bats. All of the elite hitters in baseball will go stretches of 23 at-bats with 2, or less, hits. If Ortiz had 6,195 at-bats with RISP, or with runners on, or in close and late situations, the numbers would extremely close to his career averages of .307/.385/.577. Because it's all about sample size. The more at-bats he has in those situations the more things will start to even out. Ortiz is incredibly lucky in that he plays on a team that gets more national coverage than any other, he hits #3 on that team, and the #4 hitter is one of the most feared hitters in baseball, assuring he will see strikes. The game against the Rangers a few weeks back is a perfect example. Nixon and Crisp's at-bats are just as clutch as Ortiz'. Without them, Ortiz doesn't get a chance to be the hero. What would have happened if they didn't come through? Nixon grounds out Crisp flies out Ortiz homers, score is now 4-3 Texas Ramirez strikes out, game over But what really happened: Nixon singles Crisp singles Ortiz homers, Red Sox win 5-4, OMG PAPI IS SO CLUTCH!!! It was because of Nixon and Crisp that we get to remember this amazingly clutch home run. How many guys do you think solo home runs in the 9th inning that don't mean anything? A bunch, but they would mean something if the guys before them had come through in the clutch. Clutch hitting definately exists. A walk-off home run is a clutch hit. A base hit to tie the game is a clutch hit. But there are no such thing as clutch hitters, because in the end it's all random. You sarcastically and hilariously made fun of me by saying "I guess it's all just a coincidence", but what's actually funny it that you're completely right. This isn't basketball, there's no Big Shot Bobs. Over the years, Papi's at bats in these situations will go up and his numbers will go down, always getting closer to his career averages. Brilliant sabermatricians and other baseball minds have been trying for at least 25 years to prove clutch hitters exist. They can't, because they don't. |
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06-21-2006, 06:50 PM
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#14 | |
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Triple A
Posts: 48,551
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Quote:
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06-21-2006, 05:37 PM
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#15 |
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History's Greatest, Mr. E
Posts: 42,425
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Shut up you pieces of shit. Fucking fags.
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06-21-2006, 05:37 PM
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#16 |
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History's Greatest, Mr. E
Posts: 42,425
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White Sox's Guillen uses homosexual slur
Story Tools: Print Email Blog This FOXSports.com Posted: 1 hour ago Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen recently used a homosexual slur to describe a Chicago Sun-Times columnist. The newspaper published a column Wednesday, and it ripped the outspoken skipper for his angry outburst directed at Jay Mariotti, who was covering Game 6 of the NBA Finals and obviously was not around to hear the comments prior to the White Sox's blowout victory over the Cardinals on Tuesday night. "What a piece of (expletive) he is, (expletive) fag,'' Guillen said. Guillen was given a chance to explain himself after the game. "I don't have anything against those people. In my country, you call someone something like that and it is not the same as it is in this country,'' he said. According to the Sun-Times Guillen explained that in his native Venezuela, the word in question is not used to describe a person's sexuality, rather his courage. Guillen apparently said Mariotti "is not man enough to meet me and (talk about things before writing.)" As you might expect, the White Sox were quick to apologize for the remark, which the defensive Guillen used in response to a Mariotti column about how the club dealt with rookie pitcher Sean Tracey after he recently refused to throw at the Rangers' Hank Blalock. The White Sox claim — again according to the Sun-Times — they are "working with" Guillen on how he speaks publicly. But it seems clear that Guillen has a developing penchant for talking inappropriately. The Sun-Times points out that Guillen ripped into a Venezuelan reporter earlier this year for claiming that White Sox's pitcher Freddy Garcia had failed a marijuana test during the World Baseball Classic. "It's a good thing that happened to Freddy and not to Ozzie Guillen because that man's going to be in big trouble,'' Guillen reportedly said. ''I will fly to Venezuela and kick his (backside) ... In Venezuela, we don't care. We take care of (stuff) by hitting people." In New York last season, Guillen referred to someone as a homosexual and a child molester. |
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06-21-2006, 05:42 PM
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#17 |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
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Guillen also told Couch that he has gay friends, attends WNBA games, went to a Madonna concert and plans to go to the Gay Games in Chicago.
LMFAO |
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06-21-2006, 07:58 PM
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continental drift
Posts: 46,731
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Quote:
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06-21-2006, 05:55 PM
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#19 |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
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Red Sox get:
SP Jason Johnson cash Indians get: PTBNL ---- What the fuck is Epstein smoking? Jason Johnson? 5.96 ERA? Career 4.88 ERA, 5.48 after the All-Star break? I refuse to believe there's nobody in that organization better than this loser. A $2.2 M loser at that |
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06-21-2006, 06:37 PM
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#20 |
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Guest
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lol the first thing that came to my mind was "thank god the jays didn't get him." cause he was rumoured over here
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06-21-2006, 08:10 PM
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#21 |
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Posts: 42,765
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Okay, Ortiz isn't a clutch hitter. He is just a guy that comes up with clutch hit after clutch hit.
LOL@calling somebody a fucking faggot in the paper...that's awesome. |
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06-21-2006, 09:54 PM
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#22 |
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Second City Saint
Posts: 5,806
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30 runs in 11 innings. Good god.
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06-21-2006, 10:44 PM
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#23 |
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President of Freedonia
Posts: 58,383
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Jose Reyes just hit for the cycle
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06-21-2006, 10:48 PM
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#24 |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
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OMG A CYCLE! HOW EXCITING! That's like... every kind of hit!!!!!!!
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06-21-2006, 10:56 PM
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#25 |
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President of Freedonia
Posts: 58,383
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God, Wagner has to be one of the most overrated closers in baseball
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06-21-2006, 11:31 PM
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#26 |
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The Classic Dylan Staples
Posts: 51,539
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YEAH WAGNER
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06-22-2006, 12:09 AM
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#27 |
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President of Freedonia
Posts: 58,383
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Though to be fair, Wagner shouldn't have even had to close the game tonight. Facing a pitcher with an ERA over 8, and such abyssmal hitting with RISP most of the game.
Thankfully, the Yankees won again so it's still a 9.5 lead. Even if they win tomorrow, it's a losing homestand. A win puts them 10 games ahead of the Phils. They need to get their shit back together, especially with a brutal road trip coming up (3 in Toronto, 3 in Boston, 3 in the Bronx). |
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06-22-2006, 12:40 AM
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#28 |
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The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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The Miz, would you agree that there are players who are not clutch? Because while your points make a certain amount of sense, it seems like there is the anti-clutch, a player who simply can not come through in clutch situations.
Just because the only area that I disagree with you guys is, there is definately a different feeling or pressure when you come up in the ninth with man on second and two outs. I think that if you come up in those type of opportunities often and consistantly come through, you can be considered a clutch hitter. I'll probably have to rephrase this later but I'll see how you respond first. |
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06-22-2006, 12:40 AM
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#29 |
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The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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Double post (and I pushed 'reply' about five hours ago)
Last edited by BCWWF; 06-22-2006 at 12:43 AM. |
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06-22-2006, 02:57 AM
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#30 |
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Mas Vagina Porfavor
Posts: 11,343
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I consider clutch hitting opportunities a test of the ability to perform under pressure, of which all professional athletes should be capable. Sure Ortiz is often times given the opportunity to score walk-off runs, but I see that simply as coming through in tough situations where clutch hitting is necessary. Any athlete is capable of doing that. So I'm gonna agree with the argument that there are no "clutch hitters" because games shouldn't (and most often times do not) come down to one "clutch" hitter just because he's performed well in clutch situations in the past. It comes down to any player, and if that player performs a clutch hit then he's doing what any professional athlete should be able to do.
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06-22-2006, 03:26 AM
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#31 |
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Posts: 42,765
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Does this feeling go for every other sport or just baseball? And if it just goes for baseball, why is baseball different?
Kinda seems like saying Michael Jordan wasn't clutch, he was just a good player all the time so he was able to be good at the end of the game. Samething would go for Adam Venateri as well, or Tom Brady. There are just good players that where succesfull a lot so they were succesfull many times in clutch positions - isn't that the definition of being a clutch player? What it comes down to is a order of words really, "Player A is a clutch hitter" or "Player A is always a good hitter, and in clutch situations, he continues to do well" |
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06-24-2006, 07:17 PM
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#32 | |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
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Quote:
I disagree with clutch hitting because it's supposed to be a skill, like power hitting or contact hitting or bunting. How can you be skilled at clutch hitting? Most commentators will tell you a "clutch player" like Ortiz or Jeter can "elevate their game" when it's crunch time but I think that's such BS. If Ortiz can hit .400 in the clutch why doesn't he do it all the time? Does he not care unless it's the ninth inning? |
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06-24-2006, 08:04 PM
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#33 | |
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Posts: 42,765
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Vanderjak would probably like that theory, since he would still be on the Colts (Now instead, they get one of the best clutch kickers of all time - but again is he clutch? Or is he just a good kicker kicking a field goal with no time left) All I know is, if its tied up in the bottom of 9th, 10th, 11th, etc I want Ortiz up at a bat over any other career .300 hitter. |
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06-22-2006, 06:54 AM
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#34 |
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Triple A
Posts: 48,551
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Reggie Miller had his clutch moments...bastard
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06-22-2006, 08:51 PM
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#35 |
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The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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I'm kind of agreeing with Stima. There is no doubt that there is more pressure at certain moments of the game. Some players can hit well in pressure situations and some simply can't. Unless you are calling pressure situations and clutch situations different, I think you can be a "clutch hitter" if you consistantly do what you are supposed to when given the opportunity. Maybe David Ortiz has similar stats in pressure situations as he does in normal situations, but the fact of the matter is that most players do not have the same consistancy in those situations as they do in the second inning.
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06-22-2006, 08:56 PM
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#36 |
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Clutch Poster
Posts: 11,997
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Name one player that simply can't hit in pressure situations. One.
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06-23-2006, 12:19 AM
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#37 | |
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Nah but seriously that is a good point, it is tough to come with a hitter that CANNOT hit in a clutch situation. It just seems to me that Ortiz does this a lot more often than others, so while he might be a career .307 hitter then also a career .306 hitter with a runner on base playing in an away park while down two runs during a night game, I just seem to remember so many situations where Ortiz has delievered in the clutch. As compared to other hitters doing this, I just don't see it. Now this clutch thing can carry over to any other sport though. If you feel there is no such thing as clutch hitters, there must not be any clutch performers in any other sports right? |
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06-23-2006, 01:40 AM
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#38 | |
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History's Greatest, Mr. E
Posts: 42,425
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06-22-2006, 11:16 PM
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#39 |
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Second City Saint
Posts: 5,806
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1/2 game back.
after beating the shit out of st. louis, we now have to root them on. funny how this game works. |
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06-23-2006, 02:01 AM
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#40 |
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The People's Member
Posts: 18,092
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Emphasizing the word "can't" is a VEL tactic. It is rediculous to think that all players react the same under pressure because it simply isn't like that. Some players thrive under it and might bat slightly better than they normally do. Other batters might struggle to put the ball into play when the pressure is on.
It's the same with pitchers. Joe Nathan is one of the top closers in the league when he is under the pressure of a save situation. But if he is not pitching in a save situation, his ERA is drastically higher. Or are batters the only ones that this rule of "clutch" refers to? By saying that players react the same while batting in the bottom of the ninth, down by one in the World Series, as they do in the fourth inning of a blowout against Kansas City midseason. David Ortiz has had numerous opportunities to make clutch hits, and he has a lot of success late in games. A lot of other players have had opportunities to make clutch hits and don't have as much overall success. Do you really believe that if you looked at a random sample of regular major leaguers that their stats would be similar in all of those different situations like Ortiz is? Why do you think they have stats like "AVG w/ RISP" or "w/ bases loaded"? It is because there is more pressure there, and not all players react the same. |
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