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Old 01-11-2008, 06:40 PM   #1
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Tell me about some good indy wrestlers and why they're good.
I'm curious because I don't keep up with ROH or the independents.

Who be good out there and why?

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Old 01-11-2008, 07:25 PM   #2
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While I'm not the biggest fan of him, Bryan Danielson is undeniably a great wrestler. He and Nigel McGuinness had what many reputable reporters are calling the Match of the Year. Danielson can mat-wrestle, he applies psychology in his matches, he can fly when he needs to for big spots, and he can implement a mixed martial arts style into his repertoire. The man is also quite funny, even if he does come with a bland looking image.

Basically, the guy was trained by Shawn Michaels and William Regal, and HBK said that Danielson was one of his best students, and Regal still looks out for Danielson and gives him career advice. If those two men get behind him, he's good enough in my books.

Nigel McGuinness is good when it comes to the mat-wrestling and psychology of matches. He was great during his ROH Pure Title reign. He's in a bit of a John Cena position at the moment, in that the fans are turning on him, and his style has taken on a "lariat, lariat, lariat" flavour. Some explain that away because he was feuding with Takeshi Morishima, and the high impact style was needed in storyline terms to explain how Nigel would knock Morishima the fuck down. He might go back to being great soon.

Jimmy Jacobs and Eddie Kingston cut some fucking amazing promos. WWKD would be able to acquaint you much better with Jacobs than I can. I haven't seen much of Kingston's work, but from what I hear, while it is not great, he's solid enough to let his promos carry him to the status where he is a wanted commodity on the independent scene.

Chris Hero has a lot of fanfare because of his versatility. He's a bigger guy that can work the European style (trained with Finlay, William Regal and Dave Taylor), the luchadore style and he's got a fairly entertaining personality. Claudio Castagnoli is another big guy with the European style (mixed with some high impact stuff, I believe) that is loved for his personality and character. They were great as The Kings of Wrestling. In the same breath as these men, Larry Sweeney deserves to be mentioned. He's the closest you will come to Bobby Heenan in today's wrestling climate. An old-school wrestler with a great character and some fun mic skills.

The Briscoes have been praised with keeping tag team wrestling alive while the WWE and TNA kill their divisions. They have also been accused with being spot monkies, but a lot of reputable critics that originally called them that earlier in their careers have reversed themselves on that decision. The Briscoes presented a lot of MOTY candidates in 2007. The main three I can think of is their GHC Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Championship match against Kotaro Suzuki & Ricky Marvin, their match against The Murder City Machine Guns and their Ladder War against Kevin Steen & El Generico. Spotty at times, they are pretty much unanimously considered the best tag team in wrestling currently.

Brent Albright is one of my personal favourites. He's always been one of the more solid talents out there. I heard good things about him before I even knew he was, as I read some interviews with wrestlers listing him as one of their favourite wrestlers to work with. These were under his previous names like Vinnie Valentino, Vance Vain and Slater Vain. He was booked fantastically by Paul Heyman in OVW, so it was very underwhelming when he got called up to SmackDown! as "Gunner Scott." He worked very closely with Benoit during this time, who he looked up to professionally, and I believe he got to further train with Benoit (as MVP also did). He was released because he was "too similar" to Chris Benoit in the ring, which I do not consider a bad thing. His work in ROH and OVW has shown he can be his own talent, though, and I expect the WWE to re-sign this guy soon.
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:45 PM   #3
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If they're good they'd be in the big 2 would they not?
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:07 PM   #4
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Stickman, have you seen some of the people in the big 2?
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:41 PM   #5
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If they're good they'd be in the big 2 would they not?
Nah, not always the case, but if you want to go by that logic:

The WWE apparently went knocking at Bryan Danielson's door. William Regal apparently told Harry Smith and Bryan Danielson to not sign with the WWE right away, and to get more seasoning around the world (because let's face it, the WWE does exactly encourage growth). Danielson also apparently wanted to complete his education, and the WWE's schedule would make that more difficult.

Delirious attracted the WWE's interest for a while, but he did not sign for one reason or another. Festus ended up with a gimmick similar to him.

Claudio Castagnoli was picked up by the WWE, but that never panned out. Reports state it was because of some kind of passport problems Claudio had.

Brent Albright was under WWE contract, too, and even made their programming. The WWE released him because he was "too similar to Chris Benoit," which (the controversy surrounding the man aside) is probably one of the best compliments you can give someone on their talent level.
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:55 PM   #6
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Mike Quackenbush.

He is hands down the most knowledgeable wrestler on the indy scene. If you watch two of his matches between a wrestler, they won't be the same as he always has new reversals for moves. He's just an all around smart wrestler.



Also to go further about Kingston. He just gets it. He may not have the flashiest moveset but he knows when to hit a move to get the reaction he wants. The matches he had with Chris Hero were just incredible.
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:27 PM   #7
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DEY IZ ALL DA BEZT CUZ DEY AINT IN WORLDVINCEENTERTAINMENT!11!
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:47 PM   #8
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TYSON FUCKING DUX
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Old 01-12-2008, 12:34 AM   #9
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DEY IZ ALL DA BEZT CUZ DEY AINT IN WORLDVINCEENTERTAINMENT!11!
And who exactly are you mocking here? You have seemed to have made an ass out of yourself, I guess.
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Old 01-12-2008, 01:07 AM   #10
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Hey, I still love wrestling, but the stuff I see regularly on tv isn't cutting it for me anymore. I'm interested in hearing about indy wrestlers not to be impressed, but maybe to point me in the right direction of other stuff to look at.
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Old 01-12-2008, 01:09 AM   #11
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Mike Quackenbush.

He is hands down the most knowledgeable wrestler on the indy scene. If you watch two of his matches between a wrestler, they won't be the same as he always has new reversals for moves. He's just an all around smart wrestler.



Also to go further about Kingston. He just gets it. He may not have the flashiest moveset but he knows when to hit a move to get the reaction he wants. The matches he had with Chris Hero were just incredible.
I'll probably check some of Quackenbush...seems really good. Kingston just seems average to me though from what you've shown. I guess I just need to see one of his whole matches to get it though.
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Old 01-12-2008, 01:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
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I'll probably check some of Quackenbush...seems really good. Kingston just seems average to me though from what you've shown. I guess I just need to see one of his whole matches to get it though.
Yeah, the best way to get a feel for King is really watch his whole matches. If you're signed up for pwtorrents i can recommend some stuff to download.
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Old 01-12-2008, 01:13 AM   #13
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I am signed up, but I already forgot my account.

Still if you want to suggest anything, I'll still give it a look.
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Old 01-12-2008, 02:14 AM   #14
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As far as Kingston goes some shows to check out are

Chikara

Negative Balance- vs Chris Hero
Young Lions cup 4 night 3- vs Larry Sweeney
The crushing weight of mainstream ignorance- vs Larry Sweeney
the Cibernetico Cometh- 16 Man Torneo Cibernetico
From Zero to Hero (and Castagnoli)- with Shane Storm & Mike Quackenbush vs. Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli, and Larry Sweeney
Brick- vs Chuck Taylor
Talent borrows; Genius steals- Strap Match: vs Larry Sweeney
Rey de voladores- vs Hallowicked
Avniversario?- vs Hallowicked
Showdown in Crisland- vs Tim Donst
Cibernetico and Robin- with Sabian and Joker vs the Colony
Chapter 11- Falls count anywhere: vs hallowicked

As far as CZW goes i'd check out anything from 2005 on involving King and Chris Hero. There's a whole set of videos about their feud on youtube. A lot of the shows can be found on pwtorrents and the dvds can be found at www.smartmarkvideo.com
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Old 01-12-2008, 02:48 AM   #15
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DEY IZ ALL DA BEZT CUZ DEY AINT IN WORLDVINCEENTERTAINMENT!11!
This is why I don't like you.
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Old 01-12-2008, 04:20 AM   #16
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Noid pretty much covered the many greats in the land of the Independents. I too am a big Albright fan. I loved his stuff in OVW and love his work in ROH. Also HERO is the man to me. He can work a crowd great, and his style is very unique. Its only a matter of time before the E starts calling. Probably when Hero decides to do a crunch.

Also thecc mentioning Quack. The man just knows every in an out of wrestling. Very knowledgeable and very fun to watch, as he seems to come up with many different moves and reversals every match.

Some other names not mentioned that are very good workers would be... Roderick Strong, Kevin Steen seems to be getting better and better, El Generico, and I think Tyler Black could be HUGE one day. Also Aries is re establishing himself as an absolute ace for ROH.
Last edited by Heros Welcome; 01-12-2008 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 01-12-2008, 04:40 AM   #17
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Honestly, people talk about "ROH bots", but the the WWE bots on this site are just as bad.
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Old 01-12-2008, 05:48 AM   #18
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Danielson is amazing, as long as you understand that he has the charisma of wet cardboard.
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Danielson is amazing, as long as you understand that he has the charisma of wet cardboard.
I disagree. The guy's not Mr. Flash, but he has the right kind of charisma (more than he needs, actually) for the role he is trying to play. The guy actually has a lot of personality, he just filters it through the whole "no frills" wrestling persona.
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:23 PM   #20
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I sometimes think Quackinbush is some sort of android, as his execution is perfectly flawess, despite even the intricate complexity of some of his manuevers. There is seriously not a hint of sloppiness. RVD should give him a bit of notice.
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I sometimes think Quackinbush is some sort of android, as his execution is perfectly flawess, despite even the intricate complexity of some of his manuevers. There is seriously not a hint of sloppiness. RVD should give him a bit of notice.
The guy's really experienced isn't he?
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:30 PM   #22
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Whoa Quackenbush is ridiculous
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:34 PM   #23
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The guy's really experienced isn't he?
I remember reading his articles in PWI when PWI was good.

SO thats about 10 years ago. Yeah I'd say he's experienced.
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:35 PM   #24
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And who exactly are you mocking here? You have seemed to have made an ass out of yourself, I guess.
The general consensus of a hardcore ROH mark.

Basically, if they're in WWE they've "sold out" and suck because WWE's product sucks.

Maybe no one here, but they exist.
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:36 PM   #25
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This is why I don't like you.
So I take it you think everyone in WWE sucks, right?
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 View Post
The general consensus of a hardcore ROH mark.

Basically, if they're in WWE they've "sold out" and suck because WWE's product sucks.

Maybe no one here, but they exist.
Oh, yeah, they do. But the WWE-biased fans are MUCH more uneducated, if you ask me.
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Old 01-12-2008, 11:40 PM   #27
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Well, obviously.

If you're a ROH fan you MUST have come across WWE at least a few times.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 View Post
So I take it you think everyone in WWE sucks, right?
More of why I dislike you. You generalize everybody so fucking much. No, I don't think everyone in WWE sucks. I think there are a lot of amazing talents that are being used to put on a product that doesn't interest me. Just because you're stupid enough to pretend that the entire indy scene sucks doesn't mean that I'm the same way with WWE.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:27 AM   #29
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Pretty much took the words out of my mouth Wex.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:05 AM   #30
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In an industry where everyone is screaming for the spot light, and everyone is trying to go over to top to shine, there is one man who dares to be generic....

El Generico!

Okay, the guy is at WWE's midcard level at best, but he has a few good tricks. He gets some mad air on a splitlegged moonsault, and his 450 is awesome. One of these days he's going to kill someone with his brain buster, but he works the gimmick. El Generico, the generic luchador.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:48 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FourFifty View Post
In an industry where everyone is screaming for the spot light, and everyone is trying to go over to top to shine, there is one man who dares to be generic....

El Generico!

Okay, the guy is at WWE's midcard level at best, but he has a few good tricks. He gets some mad air on a splitlegged moonsault, and his 450 is awesome. One of these days he's going to kill someone with his brain buster, but he works the gimmick. El Generico, the generic luchador.
I was going to mention El Generico in my original post, but decided against it. I simply haven't seen enough of his work. I do know this, though: What I have seen has been very, very good. The guy is very entertaining, and I just love his gimmick. A Canadian luchadore by the name of "El Generico?" Come on.

He had a very good year in ROH and PWG, holding the PWG World Championship, and really earning a following in ROH. And by my calculations, he is only 23 years old. He still has a lot of growing as a performer to do. If the WWE were serious about their cruiserweight division, he would be a must to pick up. I also like his team with Kevin Steen.

Everyone should watch the Ladder War between The Briscoes & Kevin Steen & El Generico. Definitely one of the better Ladder Matches in recent history.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:49 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
Everyone should watch the Ladder War between The Briscoes & Kevin Steen & El Generico. Definitely one of the better Ladder Matches in recent history.
This was the first Chicago show that I had missed in a year. What a bad show to miss
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:51 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
This was the first Chicago show that I had missed in a year. What a bad show to miss
Ah, damn.

Maybe you were destined to have a piece of rigging fall on you if you went, though, and fate was looking after you?
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:52 AM   #34
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The Ladder War + Age of the Fall

I would have risked it. Fucking work ruins everything.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:54 AM   #35
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I've only seen a couple El Genericho matches, and they were exactly that. Although I won't judge, since it was only 2 matches.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:20 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
The Ladder War + Age of the Fall

I would have risked it. Fucking work ruins everything.
I don't mean to rub it in, but that image of Jimmy Jacobs' white suit being painted red with the blood of a Briscoe was pretty awesome. I can't remember the last time the WWE or TNA had simply an image that was that powerful.

Honestly, I think the closest would be John Cena giving Edge the FU off the ladder in their TLC Match. Not Cena's biggest fan, but even I have to admit he looked like a badass when FU'd Edge off, and then just shook his head like "Damn, I'm sorry it had to come to that, dude."

It's good that ROH is keeping the visuals alive.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:21 AM   #37
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And I had been getting such good seats, too

Seriously, Chicago is such a great city to be near when it comes to ROH.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:28 AM   #38
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I really hate Generico's corner brainbuster... I mean I despise it. To me, it sums up everything that is wrong with indy wrestling... It's just TOO dangerous. You can see it at the end of the short video below.... Although the second to last move is just as stupidly dangerous.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:29 AM   #39
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Also, Kevin Steen is awesome.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:38 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? View Post
I really hate Generico's corner brainbuster... I mean I despise it. To me, it sums up everything that is wrong with indy wrestling... It's just TOO dangerous. You can see it at the end of the short video below.... Although the second to last move is just as stupidly dangerous.
That Double Pump Handle Orange Crush move is fucking sweet.

I'm not flat-out disagreeing with you, but I think a lot of the risk in the "Brainbustahhh!" would be assessed, wouldn't it? It seems the move hits on the shoulder, and while I'm sure it's not exactly comfortable to take, I don't think it's the absolute worst move on the indy scene.

But then again, is the move really necessary to facilitate the risk? Generico doesn't need it, and could better use it on the occasion that he and a wrestler really want to spice up their match, and use it as an "OMG!" spot. It'd be great for storytelling.
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