DISCUSSION - One reason why I am SMILING (and am hopeful about the WWE's near future)

[BasicThuganomics]

Heyman, we all know you want to reunite the rosters, but its not going to happen...
so shut up about it! that would have been a good read if u hadn''t stated that you want the roster's put back together for the 1,000th time!!!!!

[The CyNick]

Heyman, I love your optimism!

I just cant see Hunter doing the right thing at the expense of his spot. Yeah he might put over Brock or Kurt (so long as its 50-50 booking), but thos eguys are already main eventers. Would Hunter be willing to lay down for Benoit, or Guerrero without getting a win back? I seriously doubt it. So that means you'll have a situation where even more guys will be held back and never get main event spots. I guarantee if they brought the rosters together the top programs would be something like HHH/Brock, HBK/Angle and Taker/Goldberg. None of those fueds would do anything for the guys that need to be established like Cena, Benoit, eddie and others.

As for Goldberg is WCW, he was on par with Austin in 98, and at times he was ahead of Austin. Yes Austin did eventually pass WCW and Goldberg, but that was after WCW dropped the ball with the booking of Goldberg. I dont share you thought that people are dying to boo him. If that was the case why do people go nuts for him when he comes out, why does he draw the highest QH's on RAW? If the people want to boo him, they would have already. You look at Rock leading to Mania X-Seven, and then at Mania X-8, and then leading to Mania XIX the fans decided to boo him and thats what they did. They didn't wait for Rock to do a heel turn, they just wanted to boo him, so thats what they did. I think if Goldberg was hated by WWE fans (which is the case in some places, like here in Toronto) he would get booed, but it rarely happens.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Heyman, I love your optimism! I just cant see Hunter doing the right thing at the expense of his spot. Yeah he might put over Brock or Kurt (so long as its 50-50 booking), but thos eguys are already main eventers. Would Hunter be willing to lay down for Benoit, or Guerrero without getting a win back?

Probably not.....cleanly. If he were to job, it would be similar to how Taker jobs most of the time (i.e. getting screwed in some fashion). I do however, think that Triple H will do a clean JOB before he retires (or before he is about to be finished as a full-time wrestler....like Shawn Michaels did). I also have a feeling that there isn't much time left before Triple H calls it quits as a full-time wrestler.

As far as Hunter putting over a Benoit or Guerrero goes (with no intention to retire promptly), probably not. However - if he jobbed to Lesnar or Angle....who then in turn jobbed to a guy like Jericho or RVD, then those guys would get elevated anyways.

Think back to Summerslam 99' - Austin didn't want to job to Triple H right? He then jobbed the title to Mankind during the triple threat match. Mankind then jobbed to Triple H a few nights later. Triple H then established himself a bit within the next two months. A few months later, Austin jobbed to Triple H at a PPV (unclean....but still). Bottom line - Triple H still broke through the glass ceiling. Mankind was the "link" between Austin passing the torch to Triple H.

Similarly, Lesnar/Angle could serve as that "link" between Triple/Goldberg and guys like Jericho/RVD.

So that means you'll have a situation where even more guys will be held back and never get main event spots. I guarantee if they brought the rosters together the top programs would be something like HHH/Brock, HBK/Angle and Taker/Goldberg. None of those fueds would do anything for the guys that need to be established like Cena, Benoit, eddie and others.

Not neccessarily. Think about the rest of the guys. Benoit can get into another great feud with Jericho. John Cena and Eddie Guerrero can go at it....and so on. Think back to 2000. The Rock and Triple H dominated the main-event scene, but Jericho and Benoit still pulled off a great rivalry (and in effect, were over enough to be elevated). Once a guy like Triple H retires (or does become "benevolent" and decides to JOB ), Jericho and Benoit can be elevated.

Back in the late 90's, Austin and McMahon were the main focal point. Still - guys like The Rock and Triple H still fought against one another and go each other over.

As far as the 'need' to be elevated is concerned, I don't think anyone needs to be elevated unless they can potentially draw for the company. Can a guy like Benoit really do that if given the opportunity?

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick I dont share you thought that people are dying to boo him. If that was the case why do people go nuts for him when he comes out, why does he draw the highest QH's on RAW? If the people want to boo him, they would have already. You look at Rock leading to Mania X-Seven, and then at Mania X-8, and then leading to Mania XIX the fans decided to boo him and thats what they did.

Goldberg would get great pops if he was pushed in the manner that he was in WCW, but the WWE will never push him that way (due to them having a small roster [Raw compared to WCW], and also trying to get 'each and every guy' over [unlike WCW where they had many faceless jobbers]).

Goldberg does get majority of the pops when he faces guys like Mark Henry and Rico, but why does he get mixed reactions when facing the likes of Chris Jericho, and Ric Flair? When he fought Jericho on PPV earlier this year, it was a very mixed reaction. Ditto for Flair.

You can't deny the fact that Goldberg gets mixed cheers a lot of times....when he's facing opponents of equal calibre.

The best example is with The Rock.

-The Rock got booed when he fought Hogan
-The Rock got mainly booed when he fought Austin (I'd say 70-75% were pro-Austin at WM-19)
-The Rock got a mixed cheer when he fought Goldberg (probably close to 50/50).


Bottom line? - The way the WWE is pushing Goldberg, he will never be a face who can draw even CLOSE to the manner that Austin and The Rock did. .

Since the WWE are unwilling to push Goldberg in the manner that they did in WCW, I say one of two things should be done.

1)Release him.

2)Have Him turn heel.

I go with option#2 because

a)He is a 'big name' (which answers your queston as to why QR are highest when he's on TV.......this has nothing do with the fact that he's a face though.....in 2000, Triple H and Shane McMahon drew higher quarterly ratings than The Rock..who came in at 3rd).

b)Because of his 'star' status, a guy who eventually defeats him can go over huge. Remember how over Benoit was when he almost went over Austin in 2001? How about Angle?

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Heyman Goldberg would get great pops if he was pushed in the manner that he was in WCW, but the WWE will never push him that way (due to them having a small roster [Raw compared to WCW], and also trying to get 'each and every guy' over [unlike WCW where they had many faceless jobbers]). Goldberg does get majority of the pops when he faces guys like Mark Henry and Rico, but why does he get mixed reactions when facing the likes of Chris Jericho, and Ric Flair? When he fought Jericho on PPV earlier this year, it was a very mixed reaction. Ditto for Flair. You can't deny the fact that Goldberg gets mixed cheers a lot of times....when he's facing opponents of equal calibre. The best example is with The Rock. -The Rock got booed when he fought Hogan -The Rock got mainly booed when he fought Austin (I'd say 70-75% were pro-Austin at WM-19) -The Rock got a mixed cheer when he fought Goldberg (probably close to 50/50). Bottom line? - The way the WWE is pushing Goldberg, he will never be a face who can draw even CLOSE to the manner that Austin and The Rock did. . Since the WWE are unwilling to push Goldberg in the manner that they did in WCW, I say one of two things should be done. 1)Release him. 2)Have Him turn heel. I go with option#2 because a)He is a 'big name' (which answers your queston as to why QR are highest when he's on TV.......this has nothing do with the fact that he's a face though.....in 2000, Triple H and Shane McMahon drew higher quarterly ratings than The Rock..who came in at 3rd). b)Because of his 'star' status, a guy who eventually defeats him can go over huge. Remember how over Benoit was when he almost went over Austin in 2001? How about Angle?

Couple of things about ratings:

When guys are turned heel when the fans really like them, it usually leads to lower ratings. Flair is a perfect example fo this. People in the know always shake their heads when Flair does a heel turn because almost always its followed by something like a .5 ratings drop the next week. Why? Because people love Flair and they dont want to sit and watch a show where they are being programmed to boo him.

Austin is another example. If you look at the numbers, Austin's heel turn (which the fans didn't want) was one of the main catalysts for the decline in business. Austin was an awesome heel by most accounts, but the point is the fans didn't want to boo him, so they turned on the product. Now dont get me wrong, that wasn't the only reason for the decline, but it was a major issue. To make matters worse they did the babyafce tease before Invasion, and then went back to heel at the PPV, which contributed to the problem.

I recognize Goldberg gets mixed reactions in some places, depending who he is up against, but you could say that about anyone. Cena gets a good reactions, but I'm sure if was in a fued with Foley he would get booed. Its posisble a heel turn could work, but from what I see at arenas people like the guy and history has shown he's a failure as a heel, so why go back to that?

The other thing is that the WWE has already shown an unwillingness to follow a simple formula that works for Goldberg, so why would they book him any differently as a heel? So now you're going to have Goldberg as a heel, he wont dominate over everyone, he cant cut a great promo, and he's nothing special in the ring, so how does he get over? It just seems like a plan doomed for failure. And if they were going to book him as a monster, why not do it as a babyface, which has proven in the past to draw money?

About Rock, HHH and Shane drawing ratings, I dont know where you got those numbers (they sound wrong quite frankly), but the point wasn't heels cant draw, its that the right heels can draw and the wrong heels can turn people away (as I mentioned with Austin and Flair).

Onto the Hunter issue:

Again I love the optimism with HUnter, but I honestly think Hunter will be an in-ring competitor for at least 5 years, and even that I think is conservative. Now, we might get lucky and he'll catch on in Hollywood, which would take him away from the ring, but aside from that (or a career ending injury) I dont see him stepping down. For a wrestler, he's still a pretty young guy, and he still has a healthy neck and back, so I dont see any reason for his career to end. Then you have the ego thing, and I dont see him going away anytime soon. I mean whose going to tell him to leave?

The problem with Hunter losing like Taker does is that it doesn't do anything for the guy who beats him. Cena beat Taker, but that didn't make him a star. Brock beat Rocky the right way, and that made Brock a star (ironically HHH then destroyed the work Rock had done, but thats another tale). So even if Hunter were to lose to Angle it wouldn't elevate Angle anymore than he already is. The other thing with Angle or Lesnar is that they are on par with HHH is terms of star power, so a win over HHH does absolutely nothing for those guys. Its like when HHH was fueding with HBK, both guys are seen as main eventers, so a win either way does nothing for either guy.

Hunter is a perfect example of how not putting people over the right was can do damage to a guys credibility. HHH wasn't accepted as a main eventer until he did the fued with Foley, who put him over clean over and over again, thats how you make a new star. What Austin did was politic out out of doing a JOB to Hunter, and when he finally did lay down it was done in a way that didn't make Hunter look stronger than Austin, which means fans still see Austin as the man, and it means that Hunter as champion looks like a paper champion. Foley did it the right way and made sure to make Hunter look like a badass mofo, something nobody else did up until that point had done for HHH. from that point on HHH was taken seriously as a champion and as a main eventer. The same exact thing happened with Rock. When he became champ, and how it happened he looked like a paper champ. Then Foley got a hold of him and made him a credible champion (specifically the Royal Rumble match). That in turn allowed Rock to do big business with Austin.

If you look at some of the champions since Hunter there hasn't been one who got the Foley type rub and as a result they drew less and less money. Angle won the title as a heel, and he got some wins over top guys, but all were done in a manner that didn't serve to establish Angle as a legit main eventer. As a result you had a WWE champion who was a mid carder. Same deal went down with Jericho, who granted got wins over Rock and Austin, but like Angle he never got that Foley type win where he dominated an established star. So its more than just laying down for a guy, HUnter would have to be willing to sell his ass off and make a guy look dominant over him, but I cant see that happening anytime this decade (and I'm being totally serious).

As for elevating mid carders:

I dont think Ive ever seen a situation where two guys became main eventers by fueding with each other. Yeah HHH and Rocky got noticed with their fued with each other, but that didn't make them main eventers. Rock took the leap to main events after the Summerslam match with H, but like I said before he wasn't taken seriously as a main eventer until his fued with Foley. Once again, you need a main eventer to put you over in order to really become a main eventer yourself. Same with Benoit and Jericho, I mean hell they've never been taken seriously as main eventers, except for a few occasions. I would say when Jericho was when working HHH is 2000 he was on the cusp of being a main eventer, but fell short with the Dusty finish on RAW, and then again he was taken seriously when he working Rocky in 2001, and Rocky was selling his ass of for him. The only time Benoit has really had main event heat was with Austin, but that was a short lived deal. Again, the point is anytime they were taken seriously it was at the hands of an established star who sold for them and made the credible in the fans eyes.

I would totally agree that not everyone can work as a main eventer, but the problem is that they dont try with anyone anymore because they dont have unselfish wrestlers like Foley who will put a new guy over 100% in order to make them. I mean everyone who has ever watched wrestling had to know how good Angle was, so why didn't he get a big Foley-esque win over Taker or Austin when he was a heel? It would have made him a viable star and he may have actually drawn some money. We've seen with Orton, Cena and Guerrero times where they could have made them stars with various key wins, but everytime the chance was passed up on in order to protect an established star. I just dont see that philosophy changing anytime soon, especially since from a financial standpoint the WWE is doing pretty well, now anyway.

[Heyman]

[shit CyNick.

You weren't kidding were ya? You ARE always right...............??? :P

p.s. Great feedback. Not sure what else to say since I agree with all of it.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by BasicThuganomics Heyman, we all know you want to reunite the rosters, but its not going to happen... so shut up about it! that would have been a good read if u hadn''t stated that you want the roster's put back together for the 1,000th time!!!!!

Sorry. . It's just that when something is so "obvious" (and in this case, re-uniting the rosters is an obvious solution in my opinion) I can't help myself. I just hope someone from the WWE reads this.........and that people on here KNOW as to WHY the roster split has no benefits.

As the saying goes - You throw enough shit against the wall, some of it starts sticking. .

[BasicThuganomics]

Originally Posted by Heyman Sorry. . It's just that when something is so "obvious" (and in this case, re-uniting the rosters is an obvious solution in my opinion) I can't help myself. I just hope someone from the WWE reads this.........and that people on here KNOW as to WHY the roster split has no benefits. As the saying goes - You throw enough shit against the wall, some of it starts sticking. .

Ok, but my point is that the WWE is probably not gonna reunite the rosters. So see if you can impress me by coming up with a solution besides simply reuniting the rosters. Because like I said before, it seems that you think that the only way to help the WWE out of its current slump is to reunite the rosters. As CyNick pointed out, even if the rosters were reunited, there would still be some of the same problems that already exist...