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Old 12-22-2008, 04:10 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero View Post
If they do it, they're still going to need a top title per brand ANYWAY. It also means one brand loses a world title feud for months at a time. There's really no reason to do this as long as the split is intact as there are wrestlers showing up on either brand whenever they like anyway.

And before we get into it, ending the brand split is impossible with the size of the WWE's roster.
You'd have the IC title on RAW, the US Title on SmackDown, and I guess bring back the TV title for ECW?
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:14 PM   #82
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I fail to understand how the current title situation is confusing? Cena is the WHC, Jeff Harvey is the WWE Champion, Matt is the ECW champion, which is less in status to the WHC and WWE champion. Regal is IC, Shelton is US, Beth is Women's, Miz and Morrison have the Raw Tag titles, The Colons have the Smackdown Tag Titles, and some dumb hooker Undertaker is fucking has a big metal butterfly. How is that confusing?
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:16 PM   #83
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Just about the unified champion "killing ratings and buyrates", what have the ratings and buyrates been doing since WWE had two champions? GOING DOWN! I figured KK would know this since he hates wrestling, doesn't watch wrestling, but keeps track of the real ratings that he can't provide a source for.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:16 PM   #84
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With all the group fueds, and triple threats they book around the world titles as it is, it wouldn't be hard to consistently involve both brands in the world title hunt.

There'd also be no shame in one of the shows taking short breaks from direct world title fueding. Often times, the shows focus on non-title fueds as it is.
It's not like main event fueds over the past few years have been over the world title exclusively.
Look at this past summerslam, Edge-Taker and Cena-Batista took priority over all three world titles. It's not rare.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:19 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
I fail to understand how the current title situation is confusing? Cena is the WHC, Jeff Harvey is the WWE Champion, Matt is the ECW champion, which is less in status to the WHC and WWE champion. Regal is IC, Shelton is US, Beth is Women's, Miz and Morrison have the Raw Tag titles, The Colons have the Smackdown Tag Titles, and some dumb hooker Undertaker is fucking has a big metal butterfly. How is that confusing?
It's not confusing to me or you, but it can be to the casual fans and new fans.
Also, it creates discrepency over who "the champion" is, and what the championship means. It's too much.
It's just a mess to have three world champions. It's an oxymoron. The goal of being a champion is to be the top dog, not part of the top 3 dogs.
It's flawed.

Do you realize how many times I've watched Wrestlemania or Raw with people who say "so wait, who's the champion?" and when I explain it, find it completely absurd?

That's not the reason I'm arguing for simplified world title status, but rather just an example. It's problems go much deeper than that.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:22 PM   #86
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You don't give the "casual fan" enough credit. It is less confusing than how Noriaga is interm heavywieght champ and Brock is real heavyweight champ in UFC.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:24 PM   #87
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It's also ridiculous to call one title WWE championship, as if the other show wasn't part of the WWE.
In addition, the other is called the world championship, as if the other title wasn't world status.
The only world title that has a logical name is the ECW world championship, believe it or not.

If it's WWE, there should be one WWE champion. As it is, there's a Raw Champion, and a Smackdown champion. The WWE champion is a false title.
Unless they want to call Smackdown or Raw by a different name, like WCW or some other promotion operate outside of WWE, the WWE Title should speak for the whole company.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:26 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
You don't give the "casual fan" enough credit. It is less confusing than how Noriaga is interm heavywieght champ and Brock is real heavyweight champ in UFC.
Those are weight classes and deal with a real sport, as far as we know.
That system is derived from boxing to begin with, as well.

Wrestling is different. Unless they want to set up weight classes and function like a legitimate ring fighting sport, it's a terrible comparison.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:36 PM   #89
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I think one title would be a good thing.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:36 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
Those are weight classes and deal with a real sport, as far as we know.
That system is derived from boxing to begin with, as well.

Wrestling is different. Unless they want to set up weight classes and function like a legitimate ring fighting sport, it's a terrible comparison.
No, they are the same wieght class.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:38 PM   #91
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Oh, well then UFC has a problem too. Just because UFC has that problem, doesn't absolve WWE. That's what you call an appeal to an innapropriate authority BDC. It's a completely irrelevant argument.
If UFC jumped off a bridge, should WWE too?
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:40 PM   #92
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Jeritron, BDC is talking about the whole mess in the UFC with the Heavyweight title. When Couture walked out, they crowned an interim champion until Couture returned to fight. Couture lost the "real" title to Lesnar who will now face the winner of Mir and some other guy for the "interim" championship. The winner of Lesnar vs Interim Champion will be the undisputed Heavyweight champion. It is hard to understand how there can be 2 heavyweight champions when one is the "real world title" and the other is just a "part time title".
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:44 PM   #93
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Sounds like HBM and Razor Ramon. Enjoy that controversy, but it really doesn't have relevance here. It's also an isolated incident, correct? If so, that's not a case of analagous title systems, but a temporary problem in one.

I see what you're getting at by citing that, but them having title confusion doesn't clarify any problems in this debate. It's really another issue altogether.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:49 PM   #94
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They do it quite a bit in every division any time Dana White gets his panties in a bunch and wants to act like he is Zeus of MMA
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:50 PM   #95
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So is that stuff a work or not? I don't follow it, but some of my friends who do are becoming increasingly suspicious that it's at least semi-worked
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:52 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene View Post
What's this "it would freshen up storylines" and "lower titles will become relevant" bullshit coming off of? Logic? Past experience? Or did we just make it up?

Because really, it smells like bullshit to me. Unifying the titles wouldn't be enough incentive for WWE to do any of that, to be honest.
Indeed.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:52 PM   #97
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I've speculated that it is, but it really just depends on who you ask.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:53 PM   #98
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If its on TV there is a 50% chance it can be a work.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:55 PM   #99
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It is becoming what boxing has become. The championship matches and big main events aren't about finding out who is the best fighter at a certain weight class, instead it is about who can draw more money. Brock Lesnar got a title fight after only 3 fights with a 2-1 record (1-1 in UFC). While I understand business, for a company whose whole marketing angle is that they are the only legit combat sport in the world, it seems a little questionable. Especially considering the reason Couture left was because he wanted to fight one of the best fighters in the world (no dispute about that), but Dana White wouldn't do it because he wouldn't draw flies on shit in the US.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:55 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene View Post
What's this "it would freshen up storylines" and "lower titles will become relevant" bullshit coming off of? Logic? Past experience? Or did we just make it up?

Because really, it smells like bullshit to me. Unifying the titles wouldn't be enough incentive for WWE to do any of that, to be honest.
How would it not? If there's one world title, there are more contenders and thus less repetition in the matchups. They'd have to make a strong effort.
It's speculation, but it's based in logic.

Also, with less titles the IC and US titles would account for more. There'd be less room in the main event for as many talents to be used at once.

There is past experience to base this of off. Did you watch wrestling in 2002, or in any of the years prior to that?
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:02 PM   #101
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Quote:
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How would it not? If there's one world title, there are more contenders and thus less repetition in the matchups. They'd have to make a strong effort.
It's speculation, but it's based in logic.

Also, with less titles the IC and US titles would be used more often, and less wrestlers would be pushed into the world divisions.

There is past experience to base this of off. Did you watch wrestling in 2002, or in any of the years prior to that?
If there's one world title, your contenders consist of former contenders for both old titles--in other words, instead of HHH, Taker, Edge, etc going for one title and John Cena, Batista, JBL etc going for the other, all of those guys would go for one. There's less repetition in a very vague sense, I guess, since now we could watch John Cena and HHH go at it oh wait.

In fact, they could make less effort because they now have an excuse for just throwing random guys together. You can have Batista and Taker fight over the title. Brand split? Reasoning? Psh, Taker wants his shot. There's no real reason to think this would drive home the plot development.

Less wrestlers getting pushed to the world division doesn't really mean more credibility for the midcard belts. They're going to be defended once every so often (like usual), and once per PPV (like usual). It'll hurt the credibility of a show overall to not have the main belt up for grabs, but an IC title doesn't automatically become a main event belt just because the real main event belt is on the other brand
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:12 PM   #102
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I don't disagree that the IC or US title could still be treated like shit, but with the bar being raised for entry into the next level, more credible guys would pay their dues in the IC division.
The IC title would mean a shitload more to the fans and kayfabe if CM Punk, Jericho, and Jeff Hardy were fueding for it in the second main event.
I'm glad to see them winning titles this year, but it is a product of more lenient awarding of world titles.

Instead of being used as a blatant stepping stone, it'd become more of a holding place. This is a good thing, in my eyes. The best the IC title has looked in recent years is when Jericho and Jeff Hardy were holding it, and that didn't last long because it's simple to put them on a brand and push them to one of the titles. That would take longer to happen in a tighter title picture.
It's similar to how HHH and The Rock were being groomed for the World Title picture, but had to linger and become more and more popular in the IC division. This wasn't by choice, but because there just wasn't room for them in the main event. They had to wait until injuries or openings called for their promotion.
Things were less forced, calculated, and systematic in a more condensed title/division system of the past.

Laziness could occur in the main event, yes, but there'd be more cred on the belt in a literal sense. It'd be THE belt. People may care more about the champ when he's THE champ, and this trickles down in their fueds and matchups.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:14 PM   #103
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How would it not? If there's one world title, there are more contenders and thus less repetition in the matchups. They'd have to make a strong effort.
It's speculation, but it's based in logic.
The same argument was presented for the roster split. It was "based on logic" then, too. And yet, here we are, arguing the opposite as logical.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:16 PM   #104
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Perhaps I just have more faith in the dynamics of such a system. I feel as though with an environment like this, theres more of a chance for things to progress like they used to.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:18 PM   #105
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The same argument was presented for the roster split. It was "based on logic" then, too. And yet, here we are, arguing the opposite as logical.
Well, the roster split worked in 2003, in my opinion. The problem is that now they're in limbo. The ppvs are merged, and half of the rosters are merged, so why not the titles?
They really have to committ one way or another, and I feel at this point committing to one title is the better step.
There's really no chance of them going back to strict roster splits and lone-brand PPVs. So, I feel as though they should go with this title merger, rather than sit on the fence like they're doing now.

The brand/title/ppv system circa 2003 may be > the proposed change. The brand/title system circa 2000 may be > the proposed change as well.
But, the brand/title/ppv system right now is far worse than how it would be if this proposed change is adopted, IMO.
Last edited by Jeritron; 12-22-2008 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:19 PM   #106
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I merely brought up the UFC thing as that is truly confusing while they have clearly different titles in WWE, and if you just stop and think, it makes sense.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:22 PM   #107
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I have to admit, I was all for the PPV merging last year. I basically saw it as a step in this direction and felt similarly about it.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:25 PM   #108
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I believe they need to brands to become more seprate or more unified. If they were one show, then the lower card would be killed off. If it was more seperate, then would need better writer, and costs would go up.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:26 PM   #109
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I suppose I'm more optimistic of the title/division/show system dictating the booking, rather than vice versa.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:27 PM   #110
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The reason they moved towards a more unified roster is that the roster split really didn't work, financially speaking or as far as the GP seems concerned.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:27 PM   #111
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I'm more realistic that Vince is just going to push the people he likes despite how the crowd feels. He might toss Jericho or the Hardies a title, but not make them look good.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:30 PM   #112
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Yes, but see my IC title division argument. A stricter system might breed stronger stars that Vince will feel more strongly about over time. Scoff, but it's possible.
The past supports this, although it's a shotty example due to the presence of compettition. That's not a factor now, so who knows.
The current system hasn't been conducive to the same type of build up for stars. Since there are two titles, the IC title becomes a throwaway accessory and they win one of the world titles far too soon.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:37 PM   #113
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I believe the whole one title or 2 titles argument is mostly moot. It is like trying to deside if we should paint a piece of shit green or red. Either way it is still a piece of shit. The booking and direction needs to change, not just the number of titles. Booking the lower titles like the US, IC, Women, and Tag Team titles can happen indepedently of any change in the mainevent titles.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:39 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
Yes, but see my IC title division argument. A stricter system might breed stronger stars that Vince will feel more strongly about over time. Scoff, but it's possible.
A stricter system might breed stronger stars, assuming it ever happens. That's an uphill assumption.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:39 PM   #115
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On a fundamental level though, do you feel the WWE title would mean more than it does now?
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:41 PM   #116
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Quote:
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I believe the whole one title or 2 titles argument is mostly moot. It is like trying to deside if we should paint a piece of shit green or red. Either way it is still a piece of shit. The booking and direction needs to change, not just the number of titles. Booking the lower titles like the US, IC, Women, and Tag Team titles can happen indepedently of any change in the mainevent titles.
Exactly.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:43 PM   #117
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Yes, booking does need to change. I'm not claiming this is going to singlehandedly save things. I just feel as though it's going to improve them.
I never proclaimed it as the knight in shining armor, just an improvement that I would prefer.
It feels as though booking as usual, in this new title system, will yield a better promotion than the very same approach to booking in a world of three world champions and overpopulated belts.

The arguments are being characterized as extremes here now.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:45 PM   #118
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Quote:
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Yes, booking does need to change. I'm not claiming this is going to singlehandedly save things. I just feel as though it's going to improve them.
I never proclaimed it as the knight in shining armor, just an improvement that I would prefer.
It feels as though booking as usual, in this new title system, will yield a better promotion than the very same approach to booking in a world of three world champions and overpopulated belts.
It would be a short term change the back to business as usual. Unless they actually held off on maineventers and started pushing the lower card while doing so. I doubt they would cause they haven't in the past.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:49 PM   #119
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Blaming having only one title for the dropping rating is stupid. ratings were up in the 80s...one title. Late 90s? One title. What kind of stupid fucking argument is that? One title didn't drop any ratings or buyrates. It's was happening at the tale end of te boom when a lot of major stars roles were changing and/or leaving. The buisness was beginging to take a slump as a whole.

Some of you are dumb.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:51 PM   #120
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I want one belt.
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